MetaKnight Infinite Dimensional Cape - hope you enjoy

[Magik0722]

After coming back from playing several games with this technique, i am now on the other side of the argument. This should be banned. It is just way to hard to keep track of and very easy to exploit. Giving such a thing to only MK will unjustly alter the metagame to much.

 

[KoalaBear]

omg i finally a way not to get killed in ffa at a party who teams up on you :D

 

[Magik0722]

although i got to admit it was a nice way to stay away from your opponent while he got the respawn invincibility frames.

 

[Quez256]

Anyone know the best way to do this? I can't keep it going for long...

Herein lies my point, this is really nothing more than a dimensional cape with extended (and restricted to the ground) distance. It is really that impossible to keep it going for 1 second, let alone 5 seconds.

 

[shadowlink3]

I am a good mk, well people tell me, i am telling you this should be banned, its really stupid, but because of what it can do, and what some of you are saying you are saying something like "if this down b last .2 secs longer or looks differnet, they are accused of doing this and they get a match DQ"

come on now. we all know its cheap, it can stall, but hell if i down smash you and you fly across, **** i might use this to edge hog across the stage if i feel like it.

 

[MookieRah]

so you can shield or dodge during the duration of the move if you wish.

Shielding makes your shield go down. Dodging has vulnerable moments. You have to divert some attention to the clock when dealing with an invisible foe that knows where he is when you aren't for sure and only have a general idea of his proximity. If there wasn't a TO or staffer around, then that means that more than likely the Meta won't worry about going a little over, and the fact that his attention doesn't have to be diverted so he is at an advantage.

Using the match timer is not difficult.

So where is the magical tournament staffer to make sure they don't go over? Have you been to a major tournament?

If you read my earlier posts I made a reference to other potential AT's like laserlocking, infinites, & chaingrabs, which, to the best of my knowledge, burns time, renders you invincible;

Except those are extremely situational and you can't do it on command. Also, most of those won't allow you to stall indefinitely either. This is a poor argument.

I'll address more later, I'm on the phone.

 

[Magik0722]

yea the other ATs are not universal time stallers which can be done as easily as this or as long as this. Plus, doesnt every move burn time?

 

[-Ran]

Distance wise, I seem to be able to go the full distance of Final Destination, and then some. @.@ And I came brutally close to killing myself from edge to edge of Mario Circuit.

 

[Dojo]

Lolz mookie, you argue with them like they'll get it into their thick skulls. It's gonna get banned regardless...

 

[shadowlink3]

MookieRah you should stop telling every1's arguments are 'poor' look at them and make a argument for theirs that will tell them off. not just tell them its a poor argument

 

[MookieRah]

MookieRah you should stop telling every1's arguments are 'poor' look at them and make a argument for theirs that will tell them off.

I'm on the phone yo!

 

[-Ran]

Ouch.... just realized even more you can do with this. Trapped on a ledge? Short hop to this.... You're on the otherside of the stage. >>

 

[DKKountry]

Another vote for banning it; the lines between using it to stall and not are just too vague and let's be honest, what is the main purpose and usefulness of this technique? Invincibility, and invincibility, no matter how long or short, whether it's for three minutes or three seconds is still invincibility. I would think it to be pretty obvious that any glitch that causes indefinite invincibility will inevitably be banned.

"Indefinite invincibility will inevitably be banned"... try saying that three times fast.

 

[-Ran]

16 blocks of distance on a custom map.... That's how far I can make it go. This thing is crazy. @.@

 

[ComboBaker]

Dear God Do You Know What You Have Done?!

 

[EternalCrusade]

This is the greatest advanced technique ever to be in a fighting game, period. I..I think I'm gonna cry T_T

 

[unit182]

Maybe you could have the audio of what mashing the c stick up sounds like when you do this

 

[MookieRah]

MookieRah you should stop telling every1's arguments are 'poor' look at them and make a argument for theirs that will tell them off. not just tell them its a poor argument

Actually, even though I was on the phone I told them WHY it was a poor argument. This is what I said:

Except those are extremely situational and you can't do it on command. Also, most of those won't allow you to stall indefinitely either.

Honestly I shouldn't have to say more than that to debunk everything he said about laser locking and all that nonsense being "stall tactics", but I guess I will since people want to hear more.

If you read my earlier posts I made a reference to other potential AT's like laserlocking, infinites, & chaingrabs, which, to the best of my knowledge, burns time, renders you invincible; from the perspective that you cannot be attacked for the duration, and can be used for stalling purposes.

OK, laser locking. Yeah, to laser lock someone you have to set them up for it, which is nearly impossible to do on any player that knows how to tech, hell, it's ******** hard in most situations to set up period. Also, this can't be done indefinitely in most situations because there aren't many legal stages that have walls.

Now infinites. There are very few true infinites. Most of what people refer to as infinites are taking someone across the stage or something. The only true infinites are the standing chain grabs. These are much easier to enforce because of the amount of time it takes to get someone to the death threshhold. You have plenty of time to get a staffer to monitor you. Also, the standing infinites only affect 3 characters indefinitely, and D3 has to get a grab first.

Neither of these hold a candle to MK's infinite cape. The MK player can do this indefinitely, at any time, as long as he has ground beneath him. This is something very very very different than anything else that could be considered a "stall."

 

[shadowlink3]

Yes i know what i have done. haha

 

[pumper]

I use the wiimote/ nunchuk combo, and on the wiimote d-pad I have up as up smash. With that configuration it is very easy to get 5 sec out of it.

 

[Rockin]

Okay, first of all.

Everyone. stop hopping on Dimmentional Cape's ****. You all know that in ya minds, it was a ****ty move and that ya neglected it like a ugly prom girl. At least I was using it more then once in my matches >>

Second, I believe there IS a way to restrict its abusive powers. Hear me out.

I recommand this only be used as to get around the stage. It only takes about 1.5 seconds to get to the edge of Final Destination to the other edge of final destination. So the time limit should be just 3 seconds. It's simple to count, so there's no need for a stopwatch. both of the opponents can count it within their heads. 1....2....3. and we won't be strict on it like 3. 2 or 3.7, but when it hits over 4, that's a warning. Do it the second time, that's a lost in the round. Remember, they can stop the match and view the recording (provided that it's not over 3 minutes in the match...)

The Meta Knight player(s) will NOT be allowed to use the infinite Dimm. Cape trick when it's going through it's last minute. This is to prevent others from stalling and trying to get that last hit.

If Toury runners do not feel safe with this still, they do have right to ban it in their tournaments. This should be a optional thing for TOs.

 

[Saltix]

Okay, first of all.

Everyone. stop hopping on Dimmentional Cape's ****. You all know that in ya minds, it was a ****ty move and that ya neglected it like a ugly prom girl. At least I was using it more then once in my matches >>

Second, I believe there IS a way to restrict its abusive powers. Hear me out.

I recommand this only be used as to get around the stage. It only takes about 1.5 seconds to get to the edge of Final Destination to the other edge of final destination. So the time limit should be just 3 seconds. It's simple to count, so there's no need for a stopwatch. both of the opponents can count it within their heads. 1....2....3. and we won't be strict on it like 3. 2 or 3.7, but when it hits over 4, that's a warning. Do it the second time, that's a lost in the round. Remember, they can stop the match and view the recording (provided that it's not over 3 minutes in the match...)

The Meta Knight player(s) will NOT be allowed to use the infinite Dimm. Cape trick when it's going through it's last minute. This is to prevent others from stalling and trying to get that last hit.

If Toury runners do not feel safe with this still, they do have right to ban it in their tournaments. This should be a optional thing for TOs.

Good idea. And I lol'd at the prom girl comment.

 

[DKKountry]

Neither of these hold a candle to MK's infinite cape. The MK player can do this indefinitely, at any time, as long as he has ground beneath him. This is something very very very different than anything else that could be considered a "stall."

True, it is unlike any of those other "stalls" because this technique can be performed regardless of the opponent's actions, proximity etc.

Hell, the MK in question could do it at the start of the match and ride it out until the Sudden Death. Sounds like Fox's hide-and-seek game at Temple to me, and Temple was banned (mostly) for that reason.

 

[JonBeBonanza]

Yes i know what i have done. haha

Like i said when i posted... Can of Worms.

 

[Magik0722]

so we base it on the honor system? That works.

 

[JTB]

Does the move itself need to be banned? If someone stays in it for a period of time, it's considered excessive stalling and the player will be punished.

 

[cutter]

Just because this technique is "hard to master" doesn't mean it's going to escape the banhammer. If this can be humanly done at normal speed (like in the video), difficulty of something done is irrelevant. It won't take long for this to be banned, especially since MK is very popular to begin with.

 

[Rockin]

Does the move itself need to be banned? If someone stays in it for a period of time, it's considered excessive stalling and the player will be punished.

Only if you want to. I've said my opinon as to limit its abusivness. If you still feel it's not good, as a toury Organizer as yourself, you are welcome to ban it. This is a competitive game, and we all must be fair in our judgement.

 

[MookieRah]

Everyone. stop hopping on Dimmentional Cape's ****. You all know that in ya minds, it was a ****ty move and that ya neglected it like a ugly prom girl. At least I was using it more then once in my matches >>

Just cause you used a ****ty move it doesn't mean you deserve anything for it XD.

I recommand this only be used as to get around the stage.

How the hell do you define that for a rule in a tournament. That is so **** vague, and it will basically establish that TO's will have to make judgement calls that determine matches and there will always be people angry by these calls.

both of the opponents can count it within their heads. 1....2....3. and we won't be strict on it like 3. 2 or 3.7, but when it hits over 4, that's a warning.

I will laugh if people propose that they say 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 Mississippi for this. Also, again, what if someone abuses this and claims that they were in it for more time than they were? You obviously have never been to a major tournament, as it is impossible to monitor every match going on.

If someone stays in it for a period of time, it's considered excessive stalling and the player will be punished.

Define period of time. Also, come up with a way to monitor every MK match at a tournament.

 

[Nokon]

I'd like to see it not banned. I know it's going to happen.

I've done it to a few friends today. They were confused :]

 

[Korpocalypse]

What if we just only allow someone to do it like, once per game? and they have to stop after 5 seconds. There can be gray area, cuz the official will be watching. I wouldn't think you would need a stopwatch, just don't allow it for more than 5 seconds on the in-game clock, and only allow it once per game.

EDIT: hooray 100 posts!

 

[Patsie]

I love, love, LOVE the MASSIVE amount of irony and hypocrisy coming from some people in this thread, first of all.

Next, I might be wrong, but I don't seem to remember many (if any) tournaments being particularly nitpicky with their stalling rules. I'm sure a bunch of guidelines were used at specific tournaments (or even in specific regions), but the vast majority of tournaments, IIRC, just say something like 'no excessive stalling' or something like that.

Smash has relied on completely subjective judging on this issue since day one. We don't NEED a clearly defined way to identify the threshhold on which something becomes stalling. Why? First, no one's going to jeopardize their tourney chances by skirting that close to the line. Someone enters a tournament that says no infinites, no one's going to even go near the territory of grabbing with DDD on those 5 characters at all; they won't even bring up the second grab. They risk the chance of having a TO called over, and even if they don't get kicked from the game, they're on high watch from then-on. Someone goes to a tournament that just says 'no stalling' with JP in Melee, they're not going to do the rising pound stall. It's way too risky vs. the reward. Point blank, the subjective judging that we've used for would completely work for this issue, and an insta-ban wouldn't let the potential of the technique see how tournament play is affected.

Basically, it doesn't matter that we'd need a time limit now. Someone wall-bombed in Melee, a TO gets called over but doesn't have any reliable sources on how many times the wall was bombed. His only solution is to view the match and make sure it doesn't happen more than 2 to 5 (whatever the rule is) times again, and 100% of the time, no one stalls because of the risk involved. With this, the TO could come over and say you can only use it for less than 2 seconds or so after he starts moderating. It's subjective, but a) I think most TOs can reliably count up to 5 seconds (lol) and b) the fact is, no one is going to even attempt to get that close when a TO is moderating.

It can be moderated using the same subjectivity we've ALWAYS used in Smash.

Edit: My harmless opinion that will get me yelled at: It looks like some people are throwing up some bad excuses for trying to ban something they deem 'too good.'

 

[Rockin]

Just cause you used a ****ty move it doesn't mean you deserve anything for it XD.

I deserve some **** props and recognition...and Pop tarts. blue berry plz. K thx XD

How the hell do you define that for a rule in a tournament. That is so **** vague, and it will basically establish that TO's will have to make judgement calls that determine matches and there will always be people angry by these calls.

Well, like how Peach's Bomb can be used as a recovery means, this can only be used as to move around one point to the stage, which again takes like 3 seconds. While yes, I don't expect a TO to stay on the TV for a long period of time, I'm hoping that one of the players can tell that he's using the move longer then expected to be used for. Again, I'm just trying my best to make it seem less abusive, so I'm sorry if it isn't good enough.

I will laugh if people propose that they say 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 Mississippi for this. Also, again, what if someone abuses this and claims that they were in it for more time than they were? You obviously have never been to a major tournament, as it is impossible to monitor every match going on.

Right right, I totally neglected the part about major. My mindset was thinking on tournaments in general. I appologize about that XD;; Like I said in my last post, if a TO feels it's too abusive, they do have right to ban it. end of story. I'm just trying to say my input onto the situation as best as I can...and doing my best to sound civil and reasonable.

EDIT: That wouldn't be good, Korpocalypse. What good is a technique you can use once per game or round? A tech is suppose to be used to help you in your situation, and that you can use it more then once given time.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm going to paraphrase a post in the SBR just for you Patsie:

Banning the use of the technique is really easy to enforce cause you don't "accidentally" do this technique.

If we allow players to do it in given situations then those situations are really subjective.

For example:
Say I wanted to use it to get away from my opponent who was pressuring me. I manage to cape out and I'm creating space. My opponent pursues me, as he has an estimate as to where I am due to the camera. My opponent knows that I will have lag upon reappearing no matter what I do, so if he is on top of me when I pop then it's likely that I could end up getting blasted while I'm DI'ing downwards (note, you have to hold down to do this so you will be DI'ing down). So what happens is a situation where it's unsafe for me to un-cape, so we end up running around. Is this stalling? I would un-cape if I was in a safe situation, but I'm not, so it's in my best interest to wait it out until I can un-cape. Putting a time limit on it would suck because then my opponent knows that if I go over I could potentially get DQed if a TO/Staffer is around, or I'm forced to un-cape and possibly lose a stock. I am going to say that that because of the fact that your position cannot be perfectly determined coupled with the fact that I don't believe the lag is very punishable that it would rarely cause one to lose a stock; however, it could be used as an excuse to actually stall, but at the same time it could also be a legitimate reason.

Ironic enough, putting a time limit on it could actually make the move not worth it in the first place, which means that banning it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

 

[WoodyWiggins]

I deserve some **** props and recognition...and Pop tarts. blue berry plz. K thx XD

Ewww, you still eat Pop Tarts (Brown Sugar Cinnamon FTEPICW) ! They don't make 'em like use to. Besides that, this thread and discovery = Awesome. Expect a LOT more MK mains.

 

[Rockin]

I'm going to paraphrase a post in the SBR just for you Patsie:

Banning the use of the technique is really easy to enforce cause you don't "accidentally" do this technique.

If we allow players to do it in given situations then those situations are really subjective.

For example:
Say I wanted to use it to get away from my opponent who was pressuring me. I manage to cape out and I'm creating space. My opponent pursues me, as he has an estimate as to where I am due to the camera. My opponent knows that I will have lag upon reappearing no matter what I do, so if he is on top of me when I pop then it's likely that I could end up getting blasted while I'm DI'ing downwards (note, you have to hold down to do this so you will be DI'ing down). So what happens is a situation where it's unsafe for me to un-cape, so we end up running around. Is this stalling? I would un-cape if I was in a safe situation, but I'm not, so it's in my best interest to wait it out until I can un-cape. Putting a time limit on it would suck because then my opponent knows that if I go over I could potentially get DQed if a TO/Staffer is around, or I'm forced to un-cape and possibly lose a stock. I am going to say that that because of the fact that your position cannot be perfectly determined coupled with the fact that I don't believe the lag is very punishable that it would rarely cause one to lose a stock; however, it could be used as an excuse to actually stall, but at the same time it could also be a legitimate reason.

Ironic enough, putting a time limit on it could actually make the move not worth it in the first place, which means that banning it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

The example makes complete sense. You'd be basically trapped in your technique, making the move less worth its value.

Really, I don't mind if it's banned. Not like I was gonna use it (I like my '****ty' Dimm. Cape. better, anyway). Don't get me wrong though, it's a interesting technique. Ahh well, all lost.

and now with it banned, I can be original again and use it again ^_____^

Also Mookie, stop hating on the cape. You know you love it. It makes you feel like a super hero :3

EDIT: Brown cinn. is good woody, but not epic. Frosted cherry is a tier higher then Meta Knight. XD

 

[EternalCrusade]

I'm going to paraphrase a post in the SBR just for you Patsie:

Banning the use of the technique is really easy to enforce cause you don't "accidentally" do this technique.

But you shouldn't ban a tech like this right away just because it's the easier thing to do as a tournament host. I'm not saying this move should be banned or not yet.

Of course, this move seems like it can be very easily abused for stalling purposes (keep in mind my Wii is still broken and I cant play Brawl right now) but I can see this argument going either way at this point. All I know is it seems like there are a lot of judgment calls coming from a tech like this. It'll be near impossible (that means impossible, it won't happen) to monitor every MK at a tournament and make sure they don't exceed any kind of allowed time limit for staying invincible, so if this tech is banned, then there is also the issue of 'Did he just use the dimensional cape tech?' (for a lack of official name) and if he did, who's to say it was for stalling or spacing or something else?

I just think they shouldn't ban it immediately before allowing it at some tournaments first. Let us experiment with it and let the results speak for themselves.

 

[JonBeBonanza]

Expect a LOT more MK mains.

Scrubs.


10hypocrites

 

[Mystic Viper]

I kinda hate myself for missing this epic thread of utter fail.

It's funny how all the new guys to the forums are all saying we should keep it while barely giving any details as to how to go around enforcing whatsoever and then you have the backroom people and Yuna, trying to make sense of things, even pulling some stuff from competitive game writers such as Sirlin to help backup their arguments.

IMO, scrubs need to simmer down and realize that their not making sense and let the people with experience on the competitive scene make the decisions.

If you don't like it, you guys can always go back to the shadows and play your cousins, neighbors and their pet dogs and keep believing that your the best in your town.

Harsh? Yes. The truth? Yes.

 

[Quez256]

Actually, even though I was on the phone I told them WHY it was a poor argument. This is what I said:

Honestly I shouldn't have to say more than that to debunk everything he said about laser locking and all that nonsense being "stall tactics", but I guess I will since people want to hear more.

OK, laser locking. Yeah, to laser lock someone you have to set them up for it, which is nearly impossible to do on any player that knows how to tech, hell, it's ******** hard in most situations to set up period. Also, this can't be done indefinitely in most situations because there aren't many legal stages that have walls.

Now infinites. There are very few true infinites. Most of what people refer to as infinites are taking someone across the stage or something. The only true infinites are the standing chain grabs. These are much easier to enforce because of the amount of time it takes to get someone to the death threshhold. You have plenty of time to get a staffer to monitor you. Also, the standing infinites only affect 3 characters indefinitely, and D3 has to get a grab first.

Neither of these hold a candle to MK's infinite cape. The MK player can do this indefinitely, at any time, as long as he has ground beneath him. This is something very very very different than anything else that could be considered a "stall."

Alright, you got me, what happens will happen. I'm at least happy that you debated logic with logic. It still should be looked at in competive play, but I'm not in a position to make that call. ^_^