Metaknight Handicap

[brinboy789]

just to point something out, on samuraipanda's "ban mk or not" thread, were talking about HIGHLEST LEVEL OF PLAY. no anything about nubs accidently doing fsmash with MK. its HIGHEST. so were talking dojo, OS, M2K, Azen, ect.

 

[aeghrur]

To point out another, NO SLIPPERY SLOPE THEORIES. They're like Reaganomics. They don't work.
Personally, as much as I'd love to see MK banned for cuz it's one less 80:20 matchup, I don't think he deserves to be banned. He's not completely unbeatable, he's just got the best match ups with no counters at the moment. If you ban him, of course we'll never find out if he has counters or not. =/

 

[Master Raven]

Is it me or are a lot of Brawl players matchup whores? You should only worry about matchups that are at least 70:30, and as far as I can see it, while MK has some good 70:30 matchups, he's got plenty of 60:40s, which isn't bad, just requires a little more work, unless you consider MK's 60:40 matchups to be ****, in which case we're dealing with inaccurate numbers.

 

[Kyari]

RIGHT NOW. It's revolving around him RIGHT NOW.

Any theories about the entire metagame revolving around MK dittos only in the future are obsolete. Not the other matchups.

Nobody knows for sure what's going to happen, so people need to stop throwing all that bull out there and stay patient.


The reason mk's are at the top...
The TOP of the TOP players use them.

-M2K could still go D3 and **** any other MK around. I promise you. Why? He's ****ing M2K.

-Azen's Lucario outdoes any other MK around minus M2K. Why? Not because M2K is playing MK, but because he's the BEST around. Always has been.

-Now you still see a guy like Chudat competing very strongly with the TOP MK's. WITH KIRBY.

-DSF who plays Snake. Does very strong against all MK's minus M2K. Why? Because he's ****ing M2K. I promise you he can outdo 98% of all the MK's there are.


Now let's go to a little less professional level. Let's go to a strong competitive level.

You see players like Lee, Stiltz and myself using MK. We're top players at our level.
But we can still be beaten.

-RoyR a MARTH took me out at HOBO 11. DMG a WARIO takes me to some amazingly close sets.
-Stiltz has been beaten by players like Sethlon and Roy as well. Falcos and Marths.
- Lee Martin although I'm not quite to sure about who's beaten IS beatable at our level. I guarantee you RoyR would give him a run for his money.

People learn the matchup very well folks and they utilize it to the very best of their abilities.


At a lower level of competitive play.

The reason MK stays at the top of this is because these people don't know how to fight this matchup. MK IS in fact the best player in this game. He's not hard to pick up and can get you into this competitive scene. And that makes it hard for the other players at this level to compete. Thus MK's stay up top of this part of play.


It's understandable that MK is the best character in this game. But guys he can be beaten. It's been done already by plenty of people. It's been proven and it will continue to be proven time and time again. It's difficult as hell to win this matchup. But instead of whining and continuously trying to get him banned, better yourself as a player and improve your playing ability.

This game is a competitive game. The common goal should be to better yourself to overcome all obstacles. No matter how difficult they may be. I understand it's unfair to work much harder to do that. So for that I give MAD PROPS to those players who work their hardest and beat those of us that do main MK.

THANK YOU ^_^ <3 z

 

[PKNintendo]

30% is ridiculous. In a 3 stock match that's 90% or god forbid a 4 stock match where thats 120%! A WHOLE Stock!!! Every hit counts in Brawl. I say we add 10%.

 

[__V]

If you add a handicap, MK players will whine.

If you banned his special moves he'd just be an overpowered Marth. And MK players would whine.

If you banned MK, MK players would whine. Amazing, right?

Why not at least attempt to reach a compromise? MK is broken. If we don't execute something to balance him, he will have to be banned.

 

[Crackle]

Meta Knight has weaknesses:

Little mobility
Predictable B-Moves (yes they're useful IF THEY WORK but that's hardly the case in good matches)
Plenty of Methods to Suicide by Accident (confusing MK players is not hard as you may think, neither is gimping lesser MK players)
Predictable Gimping Pattern (yes he can gimp you easily, but that doesn't mean YOU WON'T SEE IT COMING AND AIR DODGE!)

Also, Metaknight can't camp, he HAS TO APPROACH. My friend's Bowser has destroyed like 16 MK players and that's simply because Bowser loves to be approached (as opposed to his slow offensive struggles).
The fact that a character can't camp is enough of a weakness as is, but his lack of mobility renders MK a NOT OVERPOWERED character.

Just because he has little lag doesn't mean he can jump around you like a crazy thing, wielding his sword - if an MK player has approached you three times, chances are you'll predict his next attempt. And he has to, so get off the "MK is OP" horse people and just get over yourselves with this matchup.

 

[ChileNess]

Look i picked MK because he remembers me Fox (SSBM)....

Also my friends use snake GW and all good chars.. and even MK's since the release of the game and i beat my friends easily... with MK only because of my experience i think.


MK handicap is stupid or good both.

say 15%.

ALSO MK is good for a reason to make the other chars shine.

 

[8AngeL8]

I think Dojo is really onto something about how he's so far ahead simply because of the fact that the good players pick him. Hell, even at local tournaments here, almost everyone plays MK. At low skill levels, other high/top tier characters should be able to win out by just playing smarter, but everyone flocks to MK anyway thinking they'll win instantly.

Maybe if the other characters were getting their meta-game developed as quickly they wouldn't be so far behind?

 

[Darkest-Link]

thats a very good idea, heck we could do that for the entire tier list

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah, tried the 30% handicap today. That actually makes MK better. Low % combos are gone, and they generally did more damage than 30% anyway.

50% seemed to make MK die as fast as he was killing, but I think it'd be a bit much.

 

[_Phloat_]

Meta Knight has weaknesses:

Little mobility
Predictable B-Moves (yes they're useful IF THEY WORK but that's hardly the case in good matches)
Plenty of Methods to Suicide by Accident (confusing MK players is not hard as you may think, neither is gimping lesser MK players)
Predictable Gimping Pattern (yes he can gimp you easily, but that doesn't mean YOU WON'T SEE IT COMING AND AIR DODGE!)

Also, Metaknight can't camp, he HAS TO APPROACH. My friend's Bowser has destroyed like 16 MK players and that's simply because Bowser loves to be approached (as opposed to his slow offensive struggles).
The fact that a character can't camp is enough of a weakness as is, but his lack of mobility renders MK a NOT OVERPOWERED character.

Just because he has little lag doesn't mean he can jump around you like a crazy thing, wielding his sword - if an MK player has approached you three times, chances are you'll predict his next attempt. And he has to, so get off the "MK is OP" horse people and just get over yourselves with this matchup.

Relying on single moves is always bad, but they are still amazing moves. The tornado wins some matches almost by itself (Inui vs Bum, anyone?). Suiciding by accident is a player flaw, not a character one. If it happened randomly it would be a character flaw, but it isn't. I have never seen a good MK kill themselves. And airdodging gets you through a dair.. Then he jumps again and dairs you. Avoiding gimpage from a good player is a lot more difficult than you make it out to be.

Meta can't projectile camp, but he can sure ledge camp the whole 8 minutes away as soon as he gets an advantage. He can nado away from most approaches, and nade through when you leave your self open for a second, prolonging the camping game. MK CAN camp. 5 Jumps, tornado, a glide, and SL makes him a mobile character. I don't care how predictable a well spaced fair is, how the HELL do I get around it? If the MK knows how to punish each reaction, you will be hard pressed to get back on your feet once he knocks you off.

 

[Crackle]

Relying on single moves is always bad, but they are still amazing moves. The tornado wins some matches almost by itself (Inui vs Bum, anyone?). Suiciding by accident is a player flaw, not a character one. If it happened randomly it would be a character flaw, but it isn't. I have never seen a good MK kill themselves. And airdodging gets you through a dair.. Then he jumps again and dairs you. Avoiding gimpage from a good player is a lot more difficult than you make it out to be.

Meta can't projectile camp, but he can sure ledge camp the whole 8 minutes away as soon as he gets an advantage. He can nado away from most approaches, and nade through when you leave your self open for a second, prolonging the camping game. MK CAN camp. 5 Jumps, tornado, a glide, and SL makes him a mobile character. I don't care how predictable a well spaced fair is, how the HELL do I get around it? If the MK knows how to punish each reaction, you will be hard pressed to get back on your feet once he knocks you off.

Alright I guess the fact that I haven't played against too many Meta Knights without resorting to my own is quite true. I guess my validity on that statement was a little off, but the mobility (despite jumps) still stands. Also, MK is - as mentioned 100x before - light weight.

I think Dojo is really onto something about how he's so far ahead simply because of the fact that the good players pick him. Hell, even at local tournaments here, almost everyone plays MK. At low skill levels, other high/top tier characters should be able to win out by just playing smarter, but everyone flocks to MK anyway thinking they'll win instantly.

Maybe if the other characters were getting their meta-game developed as quickly they wouldn't be so far behind?

That has been my theory this whole time, since M2K and other great players are winning non-stop with Meta Knight, then perhaps Brawl simply can't handle development on a single character that fast. I remember people flocked over to Marth in Melee very late in the game's development and Marth still rose to top tier or so - probably placing highest in like 10x as many tournaments than any other character since M2K's breakdown of him.

But the credit can't all go to M2K, perhaps it's just the public appeal of the winning players winning with certain characters. I know that just knowing the top player at the time was a Meta Knight gave me reason enough to try Meta Knight out, and who wouldn't want to follow in the footsteps of the best player in the world (as far as you know, that is).

I guess what I'm saying is
Top Player usage = Hype,
Hype = Overuse
Overuse = Rapid development + Large Number of Tournament Wins for the Character
Rapid Development + Large Number of Tournament Wins = Rankings List R@pe
Rankings List R@pe = Complaints
Complaints = "BAN PRTY PRTY PLZ KTHX <3" and/or "HE'S BROKEN BECAUSE I CAN'T BEAT HIM!"

So that's my theory on what happened with Meta Knight.

 

[_Phloat_]

Not a bad theory, but keep in mind melee and brawl are different games. MK THE ONLY character that preforms well in "trapped" situations. If you were in a melee tournament, and someone just hung out below the stage (excluding peach/jigglypuff with their stalls...) you could easily take advantage of that. But in Brawl, you cannot force MK into a bad situation. The low hitstun lets him SL/aerial/airdodge/tornado out of everything.

Combined with the fact that he has no bad matchups, unlike any melee character, makes picking him statistically far superior to any other character.

Once again, sans the developers, title, and freedom of motion Brawl and Melee are NOT alike.

The community, to an extent is the same, but it has some new names and lost some old ones.

 

[8AngeL8]

The seems logical, Crackle. However, it seems to me that Brawl is stacked even more in MK's favor than Melee was in Fox's. Melee tournaments would have mostly foxes in the finals, but you'd still see some marths and shieks and falcos in there. The last few brawl ones I've been to have been nothing but MK for top four, usually for top eight.

Granted, MK was the mostly widely played character at these tourneys, and therefore had a higher chance of making finals, but it's still ridiculous just how dominating he is currently. I'm not saying it can't change (After all, just this summer we thought Snake was number 1), but with how good he is, it's hard to tell if your theory holds true or if he's just that broken.

 

[Crackle]

The seems logical, Crackle. However, it seems to me that Brawl is stacked even more in MK's favor than Melee was in Fox's. Melee tournaments would have mostly foxes in the finals, but you'd still see some marths and shieks and falcos in there. The last few brawl ones I've been to have been nothing but MK for top four, usually for top eight.

Granted, MK was the mostly widely played character at these tourneys, and therefore had a higher chance of making finals, but it's still ridiculous just how dominating he is currently. I'm not saying it can't change (After all, just this summer we thought Snake was number 1), but with how good he is, it's hard to tell if your theory holds true or if he's just that broken.

Yeah, also remember that Melee started becoming stacked well into its development, over 5 years in. Brawl is becoming stacked within its first year of release!

 

[8AngeL8]

It's kinda scary when you think about it. Really, what I said about Snake being #1 not long ago is my hope at this point. If things can change that much once, maybe they can again?

 

[Crackle]

Well right now Falco is underrepresented. Me and you happen to be two Falco players which is an awesome coincidence but he really could be so much more.

So could Marth I believe. It seems all decent Marth players are placing well :D

 

[8AngeL8]

Yeah, I've definitely been impressed by Marth lately. I was at a small local tournament here in Dallas and I saw a Marth player doing some really cool things. I never got to play him in 1v1 but I did for doubles and he was spacing the dancing blade well and I was having a hard time getting around it.

Falco is another character who can do amazing things (that's why I play him, lol). I think if M2K or Azen or DSF had picked Falco and shown what he was capable of early on, he'd be placing even better than he is currently. Sethlon and SK92 do some amazing things for sure, but having M2K playing him would get a LOT of imitators to advance his meta-game.

 

[ZeroFox]

Seems like an interesting idea, better than an all out ban of course.

 

[IDK]

Define fair.

forward aerial attack.........



this thread... meh. if you did it to mk you'd have to do it to everyone else to an extent to make everyone exactly the same...

no.

 

[Affinity]

This will never happen.

Either he's banned forever, or he stays the same forever.

That's all.

 

[Drecker]

MK will never be banned.

 

[WakerofWinds]

MK will never be banned.

That's a bit off topic there.

He might be.

He might not be.

Can't say for sure right now.

 

[Undrdog]

By saying "Metaknight is never going to be banned.", you may've been right if you weren't already wrong. No matter what the SBR SUGGESTS tournament hosts decide their own rule-set. One of the biggest tournaments have already announced Metaknight to be banned.

My point with the percentage handicap was multi-tiered and it would've been nice if some people thought about it before posting.


1) If done right top players are only slightly effected.
2) Scrubs flocking to Metaknight would dwindle as they at their level cannot simply use Metaknight to be cheap anymore.
3) Less focus on one character by 80% of the community gives other characters a chance to develop.
4) A percentage handicap can be removed with little effect on Metaknight's evolution as a character.
5) Is an alternative solution to a ban.

 

[Deoxys]

One of the biggest tournaments have already announced Metaknight to be banned.

Are you talking about HOBO?

 

[Undrdog]

That's the biggest that I've heard confirm the banning of Metaknight. Don't tell me, they've changed their stance? lol

 

[Dojo]

No they're still going through with it.
All of the top MK's from Texas, including myself hopefully, along with all the others from mediocre to scrub level MK's should be there.
We'll see how it goes. O.o

 

[Deoxys]

I was really just asking if that's the one he was talking about, so I would know if other big tourneys had already done so. Why are all the top MK mains going? So they can see how well they like the metagame without MK?

 

[Dojo]

I would assume thats why.
I believe the ban will happen sooner or later, so I need all the tourney practice I can get without using MK.
That's why I'm doing it. I wanna see if it's me or just MK.

 

[Undrdog]

I'm just curious how Pit will do during said tournament. I blame you guys for the complete lack of Pits in the tournament scene. lol

But we'll see how things go with HOBO. Good or bad we'll see what characters excel in Metaknight's absence and how the lower skill levels flux.

 

[Dojo]

Lol I know! Nobody plays pit here.
Sethlon was going to but he stayed true to his little blue birdy. He's got his fire back with him too.
You should come.

 

[Undrdog]

I'm going in for surgery on my feet soon. (again) I wish I could too. I see Pit players doing very well and I'm sitting here like "and I'm better then that guy...". Then I cry a little. T^T I've been to three tournaments, only played two non Metaknights, made it roughly six to eight rounds each, and was eliminated by a Metaknight I considered to be just as bad as the ones I had beaten previously two of the three times. It's kinda along the lines of "one was bound to beat me eventually I suppose." lol

Nothing against Metaknight, but just far too many of them to make me a regular tournament goer on the East Coast. Especially in the MD/VA area. =P


On a side note though, if I could snag housing and it doesn't mess with my surgery time... lol

 

[Dojo]

Lol yeah, it's getting worse and worse. There's not THAT many here. Especially in top 10. The better players have dif mains.


There's plenty of people always willing to house as well. Just have to post around in the Houston thread and ignore all the spam that happens in there. XD

 

[CO18]

Id rather nothing happen to mk, but if anything this is a great idea and you make many valid points