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Metagame Minute, DI Part 4, Out Now! 12/13/2011 UPDATE!
- Thread starter GimR
- Start date
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
I responded to you on the MK boards and instead of responding to me you instead post the same thing on this thread?This isn't legit. How can you guys not see that?
And Mr. Doom looks EXACTLY like Dave Chapelle...
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
Very cool and nice find. Interesting series too.
I dont think its something people should worry about too much. The set ups and edge to edge trapping arent better then pikachus jab + QA lock and that certainly hasnt broken the game.
From watching I see two ways of escaping this. The first is to mix up your SDI which is incredibly affective on its own, and if that doesnt work just SDI through MK at the ledge it should be fool proof even if he does roll behind you. Fortunately you cant SDI through pikas jab lock
I dont think its something people should worry about too much. The set ups and edge to edge trapping arent better then pikachus jab + QA lock and that certainly hasnt broken the game.
From watching I see two ways of escaping this. The first is to mix up your SDI which is incredibly affective on its own, and if that doesnt work just SDI through MK at the ledge it should be fool proof even if he does roll behind you. Fortunately you cant SDI through pikas jab lock
C.S. Dinah
Smash Champion
Omg....
**** YOU METAKNIGHT
**** YOU METAKNIGHT
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Nice to see a detailed explanation on why it's so good. But I thought frame data said you only have 3 frames to hit Falco out of a spot dodge? 1 at the beginning, 2 at the end?
Anyway I have a request for a follow-up, see if you can list the best attacks that hit in the Z-axis for each character.
Anyway I have a request for a follow-up, see if you can list the best attacks that hit in the Z-axis for each character.
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
since your grab has two active frames you get an extra frame to your grab window
C.S. Dinah
Smash Champion
lol DDD.
That is pretty amazing. Actually that makes alot of sense as to how my friend got a ton of PSs out of a spotdodge.
That is pretty amazing. Actually that makes alot of sense as to how my friend got a ton of PSs out of a spotdodge.
Oh yeah, haha. Forgot about that.
Mike2
Smash Ace
Soooo, what moves can hit him?
edit- someone already asked
edit- someone already asked
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
holy ****, thats news to me.
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
from his back most moves can't hit him. From the front almost every move can hit him. Moves with small hitboxes like grabs and lasers can't hit him anywhere during his spot dodge. Well, fox's laser can hit him on the very last frame of his spot dodge if it hits his hand.
I -knew- it. I always aimed for his stomach, but it's great to know I should be aiming for his front foot.
this game doesn't make sense for me anymore.
first I thought: Yeay Z-axis, we all know about that.
and I knew about Dededes Z-Axis but not that it is THAT good.
and it doesn't make sense too. You can't explain the "invincibility" of Dededes back with "Z-Axis".
I mean.. Ikes BAIR doesn't hit him, thats a 180° Slash, almost nothing can hit him, thats far beyond Z-Axis ;__;
then I testes Sheiks upsmash and it hit him.
doesn't make sense
*freaks out* I hate when stuff doesn't make sense v__v
first I thought: Yeay Z-axis, we all know about that.
and I knew about Dededes Z-Axis but not that it is THAT good.
and it doesn't make sense too. You can't explain the "invincibility" of Dededes back with "Z-Axis".
I mean.. Ikes BAIR doesn't hit him, thats a 180° Slash, almost nothing can hit him, thats far beyond Z-Axis ;__;
then I testes Sheiks upsmash and it hit him.
doesn't make sense
*freaks out* I hate when stuff doesn't make sense v__v
NO-IDea
Smash Lord
Zak. I hate you.
this game doesn't make sense for me anymore.
first I thought: Yeay Z-axis, we all know about that.
and I knew about Dededes Z-Axis but not that it is THAT good.
and it doesn't make sense too. You can't explain the "invincibility" of Dededes back with "Z-Axis".
I mean.. Ikes BAIR doesn't hit him, thats a 180° Slash, almost nothing can hit him, thats far beyond Z-Axis ;__;
then I testes Sheiks upsmash and it hit him.
doesn't make sense
*freaks out* I hate when stuff doesn't make sense v__v
The final hitbox reaches down to Dedede's feet.
No, but, she leans back when she moves downward, so it would make sense to hit behind her at the end, too.
Again, her body moves backward (as in, into the Z-Axis) when he bends downward, so it's not weird to think.
Ike's B-Air probably doesn't have a hitbox until it's straight out.
mh makes sense but it's really gay lol
Coney
Smash Master
it's ya boi
to be truthful i get punished out of this a lot, but it may be just because they're hitting my foot. will try reversing it in the future
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Yeah, if you have to use copyrighted material, it would be great if you would upload a version without said copyrighted material for us poor germans. **** GEMA.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,311
I feel like this technique could really influence the IC v D3 matchup heavily in favor of D3 (Read that as the matchup won't favor the ICs as much, not necessarily favor D3). At least until ICs are forced to learn to grab spot dodge frame perfectly, but combine this advancement with grabbing a baited misgrab out of spotdodge to separate and I could see a nightmare scenario for climbers.
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
the problem with this is that nana grabs 6 frames after popo so it really doesn't make a difference because nana will just grab him. The only way DeDeDe can avoid nana's grab would be to spam spot dodge but that is useless because the only reason to bait a grab with spot dodge is so you can counter attack when it misses
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,311
A spot dodge is 27 frames. A standing grab has 25 frames of cooldown. Nana acts 5 frames after so it's kind of hit or miss if she'll grab successfully. If they missed during the latter half of the spot dodge aka whatever the total frames it takes for D3's grab to come out +2 frame spot dodge difference (which is likely since they're trying to time it to frame perfection) they are then open to being grabbed out of spot dodge guaranteed. That number is +10 frames if a dash grab or pivot grab whiffs.
Spamming spot dodge against ICs might actually not be that unviable. Think of it this way, based on frame testing that I've done on cging, ICs have a hard enough time hitting a two frame window consistently that they are in complete control of when it happens. Adding in the element of another player controlling the timing of the the frame window makes it that much harder.
Spamming spot dodge against ICs might actually not be that unviable. Think of it this way, based on frame testing that I've done on cging, ICs have a hard enough time hitting a two frame window consistently that they are in complete control of when it happens. Adding in the element of another player controlling the timing of the the frame window makes it that much harder.
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
My point is that if Popo times his grab to get you on frame 24, then Nana's willl grab on 29, this gives you 2 frames to do something before getting grabbed by nana. The only thing that can avoid this is another spotdodge since it's invincible on frame 2. popo will have something like an 8 frame advantage after your second spot dodge thus another chance to grab you
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
yeah, I tested that out, blizzard is very Z-Axis friendly so
for D3. On a happy not it's extremely easy to DI out of blizzard
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,311
What if he grabs on frame 20 and nana grabs on frame 25/6?
THEN what?
At the very least it protects against grab during the "vulnerable frames" to some degree. I haven't seen many D3's try to spot dodge anything against me. Although I usually use IB/blizz chase when approaching to prevent that, so that might be why lol
lol @ blizzard comment. I was actually going to count how many posts I could get before someone said to do that
THEN what?
At the very least it protects against grab during the "vulnerable frames" to some degree. I haven't seen many D3's try to spot dodge anything against me. Although I usually use IB/blizz chase when approaching to prevent that, so that might be why lol
lol @ blizzard comment. I was actually going to count how many posts I could get before someone said to do that
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,311
THEREFORE, the title is misleading. D3's spot dodge is broken (except against ICs where you still die)
I see how it is
But seriously, this is good stuff. At some point I hope somebody does a detailed list of moves and what they can / can't hit on Zaxis or something along that line for every character. If you ever need Labbies to help you with this metagame minute, I'm sure you could sway them yourself to help, but I could "coordinate" them into doing things.
I see how it is
But seriously, this is good stuff. At some point I hope somebody does a detailed list of moves and what they can / can't hit on Zaxis or something along that line for every character. If you ever need Labbies to help you with this metagame minute, I'm sure you could sway them yourself to help, but I could "coordinate" them into doing things.