~ Meta Knight's Weaknesses ~ (no joke topic!!!)

[thespymachine]

I don't think its the fact that we're overlooking his size as a disadvantage, but the fact that his size is only a disadvantage to certain characters, when they grab.
A very minimum disadvantage, in my opinion.

 

[bludhoundz]

It is an important disadvantage though.

It sets him up for a guaranteed kill if he gets grabbed at a high enough %. And in ZSS' case, a dsmash too.

 

[Megavitamins]

The thing about DIing Mks attacks is that ALL of them come out extremely fast, and its nigh impossible to react in time.

 

[TechnoMonster]

rly nice thread gheb
I think lucario could do much better against mk, if the people would di better
because if they di right every hit lucario doenst dies under 150% (only if the mk can gimp the lucario, which is very hard to do)

Except when you edgehog him and get free up-B's and tornados forever because of it.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Thought I'd add: ZSS also has a grab release CG on MK.

This sort of thing is made so irrelevant with good stick rotation it's not even funny. You can get out of Yoshi's grab release CG all the way across FD taking as little as 15%.

Sorry for the double post, lol I honestly forgot that I just posted 5 seconds ago

 

[Skyflyer]

Yeah, what I really agree on is his weight. I'd laike to add to that by saying he may have a god like recovery but that doesn't help him at all when he gets sent flying to hell by usmashes at 100%. I believe that that's one of the main reasons people can't kill him. They're not doing it right.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

This sort of thing is made so irrelevant with good stick rotation it's not even funny. You can get out of Yoshi's grab release CG all the way across FD taking as little as 15%.

Sorry for the double post, lol I honestly forgot that I just posted 5 seconds ago

u mean cant cause no move or di at all can get out of yoshi's chain grab on mk. all u gotta do to use yoshi to counter mk is chain grab to up smash or just continue cg and use dair/fair i find dair ezer to land cause it goes through up b, run away and throw eggz alot, do his quick combos and kill with cg to upsmash.

 

[ph00tbag]

This sort of thing is made so irrelevant with good stick rotation it's not even funny. You can get out of Yoshi's grab release CG all the way across FD taking as little as 15%.

Sorry for the double post, lol I honestly forgot that I just posted 5 seconds ago

So 15% + the very likely refreshed Plasma Whip for 16% = 31%. If I grab MK late enough in his stock, this could easily mean the stock for him.

 

[Tbagz]

Good Meta Knights wont grabbed, EVER. Likewise with Pit.

im a good MK, and i use grabing alot against people that play defensive on MK, because if you have a perfect defensive style, the only thing you can do is D throw them into a combo

edit: well not NECESSARILY d throw as the ONLY thing you can do, im just saying its something a MK can go for

 

[Nintendevil]

His Size


Irrelivant. Even if he wasn't forced into a jumping release he'd be free to a Dsmash tipper or such. Also, I don't know if extra inch DI would make a difference, but it should be tested. Also, grab releases are NOTHING new. They have been done for a long time, and that's what's been "exploited" with no major result. What happened to you're don't get grabbed policy?

Good DI is bad for MK

Oh wait. DI hurts every opponent doesn't it?


His weight

Granted.


Now tell me: How many weaknesses does King Dedede have? Can you name 3?

Heavyweight + large hitboxes = victim of chaingrabs, victim of comkbos, below average speed (admit it), Not very exiting matchups, Up B easy to edgehog, (in the gray zone to gimp.) Grabs are 1/4 of his metagame.

Yes he has weaknesses, but honestly you aren't going to be able to 'exploit' them very easily, and most of these are old and have been taken into consideration, making no effect on his matchups.

EDIT: Sorry if it looks like I'm trolling or something, I'm just giving my thoughts. This stuff doesn't seem valid enough to me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i like this thread, i really do, my only problems with it are that you basically said that grab release combos are character specific to Mk despite the fact that they were discovered and tested and perfected on wario. than you said that other characters dont matter cus we are talking about MK... that doesnt work.

its not character specific to Mk... other than that, idc

one more thing, you said that D3s up b is hard to punish, but any character with a good up air (pit, fox, sonic, lulz MK) can kill it easily, you can shield grab it, and you can edgehog it if you predict correctly.

other than that, i really like this thread despite the fact that it doesnt stop MK from being bad for the game

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nintendevil, you should learn to read. I explained the DI thing about 3 times. If you still don't get it you don't deserve better

@KID

Of course other characters suffer from the "Jump Release" syndrom but MK is a very important case since many ppl seem to overlook it. Also: Using the terms "MK" and "ban" in the same context is prohibited in this thread =P

 

[Skyflyer]

Oh yeah. And his evasive maneuvers suck ***. His shield gets poked by **** near anything and his roll goes like...no distance. His spot dodge is ok at best.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i editted my post...
is that ok?

 

[Tenki]

Did some research.

The physics of a character when they're grab released depends on the size:weight ratio of the character.

It's just size.

You get air released if your feet aren't touching the ground.

This sort of thing is made so irrelevant with good stick rotation it's not even funny. You can get out of Yoshi's grab release CG all the way across FD taking as little as 15%.

Sorry for the double post, lol I honestly forgot that I just posted 5 seconds ago

It's more about placement moreso than damage. However, MK can usually get past edgeguard attempts (?) so... yeah.


As weird as it sounds, it feels like MK's aerials have a ton of commitment time while he's in the air. If you SH F-air or SH B-air, you're forced to land. N-air's only good with the first hit - the other parts of it are really easy to outprioritize. D-air is okay, I guess, and U-air is 2222 fast, but stales out easily.

So yeah, frame data. For duration, 'dead' time (between attacks), etc would be nice.

 

[Nintendevil]

Nintendevil, you should learn to read. I explained the DI thing about 3 times. If you still don't get it you don't deserve better
=P

Right, because DI is ONLY useful for multi hit moves miright? And wait what happened to Snakes Killer ***breaking nair and dair? Marths Side B combo? ROB's Uair, Dsmash, Dedede's Uair, dair, and aaa combo? Gaw's ****** aeirials (even though they are kinda fast), Neraly every character besides Captain falcon doesn't have a great move that DI kills.

 

[Hype]

lol at how the brackets in the title are necessary

 

[Snowstalker]

He's light, and his air speed is crappy. But one is engulfed by his godlike recovery, and the other by gliding.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

zamus cant do the side b....

 

[momochuu]

Are you making this so he won't be bannned? =Z

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He won't be banned anyways. Every human with a sane mind should know, that it's much too early to even consider things like that. MK is far from being too good. Only 3 months ago, few people even thought that he's the best character. Everybody was so focused on Snake. And now suddenly he's supposed to be sooo good that nobody stands a chance against him? Despite the fact that most characters Metagame hasn't even started to involve yet? The only thing I can imagine is that TOs get freedom to ban MK at their events, if they like but they won't do themselves a favour with that.

The purpose of this is to stop people from being so hopelessly stupid. Some people cannot be convinced, no matter how well you present the facts - I know that from the noobs on the Fox boards. You can try to explain things and why people are wrong. Some people just decide to be stupid, when they here things they don't like. I expeted nothing else - some people read it, think about it and either agree or disagree...that's fine. And some people are just too stupid to understand it or they start to be intentionally stupid because they don't like it. As long as some people read through it and learn from it (that's the whole purpose) I'm glad to have written it.

Those idiots who don't get it...well there's nothing you can do for them anyways.

 

[PyroSpark]

MK=Snake

Ban both and we can enjoy our lives.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You did miss some characters for the jump break. Here's the full list.

Peach, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Wario, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Captain Falcon, Ivysaur, Marth, Ike, Snake

You were missing Yoshi, Wario, Ivysaur, and Snake. Yoshi gets tons of stuff, but it should be noted that at low percentages the Meta Knight can mash a ground break (he has to break before entering Yoshi's mouth). I'm pretty sure Snake can mortar slide for a free hit at least, and I'm sure the speedy Wario has something. I don't know about Ivysaur; I think he might actually be able to chaingrab (I can only test against the level 9 AI unfortunately so I can only say that it's a maybe).

 

[Tenki]

Yoshi gets tons of stuff, but it should be noted that at low percentages the Meta Knight can mash a ground break (he has to break before entering Yoshi's mouth).

I saw one such vid of this "ground break".

It was more like,
[Yoshi grabs MK] > (quickly) > [pummel x1] > [MK ground breaks]

 

[M.J.B]

Cust in case you care: Yeah, I used to think MK should be banned but I changed my mind. He shouldn't even considered ban worthy (honestly, I even my doubts that he's the best character....). One common argument is that MK is supposed to have no exploitable weakness and therefore is not reasonably defeatable. I'll show you that it's not like that to (hopefully) end this nonsense. All numbers that come up are from training mode. They are a bit different in a real match.

His Size

His size is problematic. Quite a few characters can force him to jump release out of their grabs, which leaves MK almost always vulnerable to attacks or even regrabs. Most ppl ignore me when I bring this one up or just come with some strawman arguments: "MK is too hard to grab and these characters suck anyways lololol". This is rubbish. In Melee spacing was due to Wavedashing much "stricter" than in Brawl but you could still grab any top tier character if you get the chance. Marth had more range than MK has now (comparably) yet MK is supposed to be magically un-grabbable? This is obviously complete garbage. Jump releases must be considered a disadvantage against MK. Here's are some facts...

Characters, that can force MK to jump release: Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Zelda, Sheik, Ike, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Bowser and Peach (if anyone's missing, let me know).

Out of all these characters DK seems to be the only one who get's no free attack. All the other characters get one guaranteed attack. Ike, Peach, Zelda and Marth apparently only get a free dash attack. They either deal less dmg than a throw or have no KO potential. In most cases both is true.
However, Ganondorf, Falcon, Sheik, Bowser and Zamus will have better options. Ganon gets a free downB and Falcon even has a CG apparently but since both of them suck I'll even leave them out. That leaves us with Bowser, Zero Suit Samus and Sheik.

- Bowser: has a CG only due to MKs size. It also gives Bowser plenty of free attacks and often KO moves. With it he can KO MK with 0% at the second stage of Castle Siege (so much for the no counterpick argument).

- Sheik gets a free boost smash. Kills at 83% (center of FD + training mode)

- Zamus gets a free sideB. Apparently she doesn't even have to move. Kills at 105% (center of FD + training mode)

...

No matter what you think about it, it's a weakness that's in fact almost exclusive to MK. Other characters have the same weakness but they are not of interest now.


Good DI is bad for MK

Many ppl seem to be unable to DI MKs attacks correctly. Otherwise they wouldn't complain. If you can DI out of his moves correctly, half the work's done (honestly I'm more afraid of Sonics techchases than of MKs tornado). If you manage to DI correctly you'll see that many moves of MK have some weak spots, that you can exploit. The most obvious example is the tornado: The top center has almost no priority at all and it just happens to be the spot that you can reach the easierst via good DI. If you DI correctly (up+away) and fast enough, you basically just get a free Dair and in many cases, they deal much more dmg than the first few hits of the tornado do. Most dair deal between ~15% (Peach, Yoshi, Pika and many others) and ~20% (Ganon, Yoshi, Snake). Some of these moves have KO potential such as Links dair. That means: even if you fail to shield the tornado (completely shielding it leaves him open too btw) you can still avoid most hits. You'll take ~8% dmg but are able to deal twice as much. Tornado isn't a safe move. You don't even need to shield it to have a good weapon against it. That's the "fate" of weak multi-hit attacks in Brawl. You can DI at almost any time out of most of his moves and bring yourself in a better position for a free attack or a risky lose / lose situation for MK. The Shuttle Loop is such a move. It has little start-up lag, invincibilty frames and seemingly transcending priority but it's actually full of weak spots, that put him in bad positions.

Just in case: Snake, King Dedede, GnW and Donkey Kong don't have many moves like that, that bring the user in bad positions. Few characters have such moves at all. MK is one of the only (higher tiered) characters, who has such issues.


His weight

One of the only things that's accepted: MKs leight weight make him easy to KO, even with his godly recovery. Most ppl will tell you that he's strengths will outweigh this flaw. Of course they do. MK is top tier for a reason. But Snakes strengths outweigh his weaknesses too. That's the nature of top tier characters. What stays is one recognition: MK does have a weaknes.

.....

I hope some ppl of you will read it and take it seriously. MK has 3 weaknesses and all of them can be exploited by multiple characters.

Now tell me: How many weaknesses does King Dedede have? Can you name 3? He has his large size, which makes him a victim against combos and multi-hit moves but that's it. You can't name more weaknesses than 3 because he doesn't have more than 3. You can't DI out of his moves easily because most of them are single hits. DI won't give you a free attack against his overpowered bthrow. Against MK it will in many cases. You can't kill Dedede under 100%. You can do this vs MK. You can't just grab him and get a free finishing move as a result. Sheik, Zamus and Bowser can do this vs MK.

Now don't ever say MK has no weakness again.

Wow... I never knew MK had these many weaknesses. Great information

 

[Tujex]

People complain to much. All the top tier characters have serious weaknesses that can (and essentially must) be exploited to achieve victory.

I have no problems with anybody (But DDD and his 0-death CG on my main DK) because I took the time to study these supposed god characters and find their weaknesses. MK's are highly predictable, easy to kill, easy to space against, and only have their amazing gimping ability over anything. Not downing the character or the players, just saying he's not as difficult as people make him out to be.

 

[Nic64]

disregard this

 

[Nintendevil]

it's much too early to even consider things like that. MK is far from being too good. Only 3 months ago, few people even thought that he's the best character. Everybody was so focused on Snake. And now suddenly he's supposed to be sooo good that nobody stands a chance against him? Despite the fact that most characters Metagame hasn't even started to involve yet?

Agreed, but anyone who's voting for a permaban is the one out of their mind. Of course it's too early to prove he should be banned, but it's also too early to prove he should not be banned. What if there was no counter to Snake? You all could have said " everyone else will improve" but you can't be sure, even if it's very likely for it to. We should be discussing a ban considering the metagame does not change- reguardless of how worthless it seems, we just can't predict the future. How can you say MK wont progress even further and faster than everyone else progresses? My two cents.

 

[HolyKnight]

Agreed, but anyone who's voting for a permaban is the one out of their mind. Of course it's too early to prove he should be banned, but it's also too early to prove he should not be banned. What if there was no counter to Snake? You all could have said " everyone else will improve" but you can't be sure, even if it's very likely for it to. We should be discussing a ban considering the metagame does not change- reguardless of how worthless it seems, we just can't predict the future. How can you say MK wont progress even further and faster than everyone else progresses? My two cents.

A man's got to know his limitations...

 

[Deoxys]

A man's got to know his limitations...

I mean, MK has pretty much been tapped for everything.

 

[ph00tbag]

I mean, MK has pretty much been tapped for everything.

Apparently, MK is quite the ****.

 

[epic of DE]

Yeah...MK does have Weakness, the reason that most people don't really make any mention of it when they discuss whether he should be banned is that his strenghts can be fully utilized while his weakness have marginal to no real effect when you use him.

Yes...this is coming from a falcon main that I don't feel that MK should be banned for any reason and while limitations in theory seem nice they fail incredibly in reality so the odds are very good that every person that goes to a tournament will learn MK and eventually just have MK as their said main.

Eventually, people in good humour may just agree to not MK all the time but nothing will stop people from using him if they want to just use him.

I mean cmon, it would be like saying that nobody is allowed to use Fox or Falco in melee.

 

[Deoxys]

MK's weight has a HUGE effect on him... I don't really agree with anything you said in that post.

I saw one such vid of this "ground break".

It was more like,
[Yoshi grabs MK] > (quickly) > [pummel x1] > [MK ground breaks]

Break during pummel = ground break.

 

[Maniclysane]

Those idiots who don't get it...well there's nothing you can do for them anyways.

So, they're "Stupid" because they don't agree with you? If there is "nothing you can do for them anyways" then why post the thread? If any of the points you made were really that vital to beating MK, then MK wouldn't be winning tournaments.

 

[kupo15]

My only problem is that MK can basically just throw out attacks and you have no choice but to deal with them. You cant formulate a strategy of your own, you have to play to what mk wants to do. He owns the show, he kinda forces you into what you can and cannot do. Mk has an agenda that he doesn't really have to think twice about and no character can change it.

Plus, he has a move to counter all situations and when he is vulnerable when lacking jumps or feels open, he can cover it up with the tornado to reset his position to neutral.

I second/practically main him that how I feel when I play my friends and thats what my friends say also. If I play as any other character that i am good with, i cant always follow what I have planned like I do with mk.

So while your OP is right, mk essentially has no weakness or they are so minuscule that it doesn't make a difference.
These are my feelings on the issue

 

[Tenki]

Break during pummel = ground break.

Exactly - That's the only way to ground break from Yoshi. So if Yoshi grabs you below say, 80%, he should probably just grab > no pummel > chase+usmash or something.

Plus, he has a move to counter all situations and when he is vulnerable when lacking jumps or feels open, he can cover it up with the tornado to reset his position to neutral.

I'm not sure the 'speed range' required for this, but if you shield the tornado and release it as soon as the Tornado starts to move away, you can chase after and punish it. If he's on the ground, there's a little 'spin' ending lag (really small) - so faster characters can probably dash attack or shoot a projectile or something at it. Maybe even grab. If he's trying to do 'lagless ending', he has to fall through the air first, and I think that might even be more vulnerable than the grounded endings.



Here's something interesting to note.

If MK SH F-airs/B-airs, he can't double jump. He has to land.

Take and imply what you want from it. I drew an interesting conclusion about MK aerials, but I want to solidify it with frame data which I'm waiting for lol.

 

[Deoxys]

Exactly - That's the only way to ground break from Yoshi. So if Yoshi grabs you below say, 80%, he should probably just grab > no pummel > chase+usmash or something.

I'd estimate 67%.

 

[adumbrodeus]

He won't be banned anyways. Every human with a sane mind should know, that it's much too early to even consider things like that. MK is far from being too good. Only 3 months ago, few people even thought that he's the best character. Everybody was so focused on Snake. And now suddenly he's supposed to be sooo good that nobody stands a chance against him? Despite the fact that most characters Metagame hasn't even started to involve yet? The only thing I can imagine is that TOs get freedom to ban MK at their events, if they like but they won't do themselves a favour with that.

The purpose of this is to stop people from being so hopelessly stupid. Some people cannot be convinced, no matter how well you present the facts - I know that from the noobs on the Fox boards. You can try to explain things and why people are wrong. Some people just decide to be stupid, when they here things they don't like. I expeted nothing else - some people read it, think about it and either agree or disagree...that's fine. And some people are just too stupid to understand it or they start to be intentionally stupid because they don't like it. As long as some people read through it and learn from it (that's the whole purpose) I'm glad to have written it.

Those idiots who don't get it...well there's nothing you can do for them anyways.

I correctly pointed out that MK was the character of concern months ago, back when everyone was fussing over Snake. MK was completely responsible for the shape of the metagame, even back then. It's just everyone was too busy fussing over Snake to notice this, he was never even remotely approaching bannable.


These issues are far then enough to stop him from being too good. DI hurts MK, true, but a lot of his attacks are too quick to reliably DI out of, and this doesn't deal with the fact that you're still getting damage, and DIing out of the attack doesn't change that, especially since most of his attacks are safe.

As for his size for grab releases... really, it only matters for one of the mentioned characters (and one unmentioned character, Yoshi), that's ZSS. You may think it's idiotic that characters won't be able to get grabs out, but it's true. MK has an obscene spacing game, and is comfortable in melee at a crazy range. Add that to the fact that his moves have nearly no lag, and you have one fact, MK SHOULD NOT GET GRABBED. The only characters that you can justify reliably grabbing MK are the tether grabbers and DDD. MAYBE charizard and Marth, but anything with lower range and MK's spacing game disqualifies a grab.

You may not notice this, but at the highest levels of play, MK getting grabbed by anyone else, equates to a big mistake. Think getting mindgamed into an Ike F-smash big. It happens, but not often.

Otherwise, everyone and their mother would have an advantage vs. wario (even Ganondorf), and ICs would be top tier.



You are correct about one major issue however. It's WAY TOO SOON. The metagame is not mature enough to currently ban a character as boarderline as MK.

 

[BioGhost]

Is it just me or does Pikachu's fair have priority over the tornado?

 

[Ussi]

Is it just me or does Pikachu's fair have priority over the tornado?

Its you

10youhitthetop