~ Meta Knight's Weaknesses ~ (no joke topic!!!)

[onionchowder]

Yoshi always air-releases everybody. I don't main him, but I think Yoshi gets a free Fair/Uair/Usmash.

Supposedly Yoshi v. MK is about 50-50

Jussayin'

 

[Amethyst]

As a metaknight main, he has other weaknessess, in which I will not share. lol

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Do any of you guys actually have experience doing grab releases with Yoshi? Anyone who has ever done it would tell you it's not something simple like "break during pummel" unless it's a one frame window or something.

 

[Cook]

Most ppl ignore me when I bring this one up or just come with some strawman arguments: "MK is too hard to grab and these characters suck anyways lololol".

I haven't read all the posts and I don't intend to address the issue of banning MK. I just want to know how those are straw men.

 

[Gaussis]

I don't think this was mentioned, but isn't MK unable to fan projectiles with his sword attacks? I believe this should go under an exploitable weakness as well.

 

[brinboy789]

Do any of you guys actually have experience doing grab releases with Yoshi? Anyone who has ever done it would tell you it's not something simple like "break during pummel" unless it's a one frame window or something.

yes. i was version Sir Orion from SWF, and he was CGing me, and iwas mashing random buttons, and nothing happened, idk how it works >_>

 

[Megavitamins]

Yoshi can only air release characters, its not possible to ground release with yoshi, to my knowledge.

 

[Kitamerby]

Now I know what M2K meant when he said: "This is where people decide to be stupid." Instead of reading what I actually have to say, you come up with some Dedede vs MK BS, which I admit that it's just my opinion.

Sounds to me like you've been backed into a corner. You outright tell people to name 3 weaknesses for Dedede, argue about it, and then complain about why we brought it up when you can't think of anything left to say. :\

Rather than that you should check out what I say here. If you think it's too hard to beat MK use Sheik and kill him @Corneria. All you need is to deal 50% dmg and grab him. Oh, w8. MK is ungrabbable and it's completely impossible to deal 50% dmg to him. I should've known that rubbish like this would come up sooner or later. It's just as dumb as saying "Falco's pathetic offstage game doesn't matter 'cuz he's strong eveywhere else". Of course he is. He's a f*cking top tier character and it's obvious that his strengths outweigh his weaknesses by far. So what? MKs small size is not only an advantage. Just because his size helps him doesn't mean that it makes up for the fact, that it hurts him too. Point is: If he gets grabbed by one of the characters mentioned in the OP his size is a disadvantage. Just because his small size is usefull otherwise doesn't mean that it removes this weakness.

Alright. Here I am, playing Lucario at a tournament. Meta Knight gets paired against me. (Hmm! I can kill him at 50% on Corneria!). He bans Corneria. Now what? On the same note, Corneria is banned in various regions of the country. Also, now that I think about it, doesn't MK have a dtilt lock on the fin, and Sheik has nothing of the sort? Isn't Sheik's (standing) grab range exactly the same as Meta Knight, although MK's dash grab is obviously much, much longer? Doesn't Sheik only have hand-to-hand moves, while MK can DI in and out of range in one short hop, all the while outranging Sheik's grab? You're COMPLETELY oversimplifying this. Meta Knight's size is not an overall weakness. It's a slight disadvantage against two or three characters in the cast, all of which are rarely seen in tournament play, especially in the few tournaments that allow Corneria. Also, Meta Knight still dominates Corneria just as much as they do with camping the fin, dtilt locks, Tornadoing up offscreen, etc.

As of this moment, your only claim to why size is a BAD thing is because of Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, both mid-tier characters who will very rarely be seen in tournament play. On the flip side, his size allows him to avoid a TON of powerful moves with little effort and make him a very hard target to connect sweetspotted moves with. In most games, he'd be coupled with low range to offset this. Instead he has arguably one of the best attacking ranges in the game. Size is not a bad thing, because only two characters can even benefit from it, while everyone else suffers!

You claim DI horribly beats MK, and then go so far as to claim that any character, even Link can DI up and Dair him to his death. You are just... wrong. There's no other way to put it. The Tornado is virtually unpunishable if used properly, and you're saying it's completely unsafe. We freaking had to have an entire list devoted to moves that outprioritize the **** thing, and the list is actually tiny, even with the moves that beat it out from above. Characters like King Dedede have to freaking Bair from above it on a sweetspot with his terrible air speed, regardless of the fact that it gives Meta Knight virtually the best air speed in the game. To put it in perspective, the Tornado outruns my character, Lucario, and my ONLY option to punish it in the air is to get right above it and Dair.If my timing or aim is slightly off, I get hammered. Also, if the tornado is shielded, he can just hover around you to drain your shield for a second, then simply float away so that you can't take advantage of the measly 23 frames of cooldown. Shuttle Loop is not unsafe. It comes out in 5 frames, and as an insult to injury, it even has an invincible frame as it comes out. That's as fast, or even faster than some character's jabs. Shuttle Loop has no lag upon landing, autocancels if for some reason he lands early, and cancels out immediately into an extremely easy-to-control glide with a kill move that comes out in 4 frames, has incredible kill power, insane priority, and freaking combos into other moves at lower percents. Shuttle Loop is unpunishable if it hits. It's virtually unpunishable if it misses. The only way to punish it is to predict it and attack him while he's doing it. Sure, its kill power goes up extremely slowly, but what kind of Meta Knight uses it from the center of the stage, when he could be Dsmashing, which comes out in 4 frames, has a very low knockback angle, kills at 120% or so reliably, and sets up for a gimp if it doesn't?

Weight is a legitimate weakness, and the only weakness that you listed that can be considered valid.

He does have weaknesses, those being his weight, the fact that he cannot cancel projectiles with his sword (minor weakness, but still a problem against campers, although it's pretty negated by his dash speed), and the fact that everyone knows the matchup better than they do their own character. >>

I'm personally for not banning him yet, but you're just wrong about those points. :\

 

[ZeroFox]

Sounds to me like you've been backed into a corner. You outright tell people to name 3 weaknesses for Dedede, argue about it, and then complain about why we brought it up when you can't think of anything left to say. :\



Alright. Here I am, playing Lucario at a tournament. Meta Knight gets paired against me. (Hmm! I can kill him at 50% on Corneria!). He bans Corneria. Now what? On the same note, Corneria is banned in various regions of the country. Also, now that I think about it, doesn't MK have a dtilt lock on the fin, and Sheik has nothing of the sort? Isn't Sheik's (standing) grab range exactly the same as Meta Knight, although MK's dash grab is obviously much, much longer? Doesn't Sheik only have hand-to-hand moves, while MK can DI in and out of range in one short hop, all the while outranging Sheik's grab? You're COMPLETELY oversimplifying this. Meta Knight's size is not an overall weakness. It's a slight disadvantage against two or three characters in the cast, all of which are rarely seen in tournament play, especially in the few tournaments that allow Corneria. Also, Meta Knight still dominates Corneria just as much as they do with camping the fin, dtilt locks, Tornadoing up offscreen, etc.

As of this moment, your only claim to why size is a BAD thing is because of Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, both mid-tier characters who will very rarely be seen in tournament play. On the flip side, his size allows him to avoid a TON of powerful moves with little effort and make him a very hard target to connect sweetspotted moves with. In most games, he'd be coupled with low range to offset this. Instead he has arguably one of the best attacking ranges in the game. Size is not a bad thing, because only two characters can even benefit from it, while everyone else suffers!

You claim DI horribly beats MK, and then go so far as to claim that any character, even Link can DI up and Dair him to his death. You are just... wrong. There's no other way to put it. The Tornado is virtually unpunishable if used properly, and you're saying it's completely unsafe. We freaking had to have an entire list devoted to moves that outprioritize the **** thing, and the list is actually tiny, even with the moves that beat it out from above. Characters like King Dedede have to freaking Bair from above it on a sweetspot with his terrible air speed, regardless of the fact that it gives Meta Knight virtually the best air speed in the game. To put it in perspective, the Tornado outruns my character, Lucario, and my ONLY option to punish it in the air is to get right above it and Dair.If my timing or aim is slightly off, I get hammered. Also, if the tornado is shielded, he can just hover around you to drain your shield for a second, then simply float away so that you can't take advantage of the measly 23 frames of cooldown. Shuttle Loop is not unsafe. It comes out in 5 frames, and as an insult to injury, it even has an invincible frame as it comes out. That's as fast, or even faster than some character's jabs. Shuttle Loop has no lag upon landing, autocancels if for some reason he lands early, and cancels out immediately into an extremely easy-to-control glide with a kill move that comes out in 4 frames, has incredible kill power, insane priority, and freaking combos into other moves at lower percents. Shuttle Loop is unpunishable if it hits. It's virtually unpunishable if it misses. The only way to punish it is to predict it and attack him while he's doing it. Sure, its kill power goes up extremely slowly, but what kind of Meta Knight uses it from the center of the stage, when he could be Dsmashing, which comes out in 4 frames, has a very low knockback angle, kills at 120% or so reliably, and sets up for a gimp if it doesn't?

Weight is a legitimate weakness, and the only weakness that you listed that can be considered valid.

He does have weaknesses, those being his weight, the fact that he cannot cancel projectiles with his sword (minor weakness, but still a problem against campers, although it's pretty negated by his dash speed), and the fact that everyone knows the matchup better than they do their own character. >>

I'm personally for not banning him yet, but you're just wrong about those points. :\

You bring up very good points. Out of curiosity though, if you're not for banning him YET, what would make you change your mind?

 

[Kitamerby]

You bring up very good points. Out of curiosity though, if you're not for banning him YET, what would make you change your mind?

It's way too early to decide, honestly.

 

[8AngeL8]

I don't see how you can still use that argument. At this point, you're either for it or against it, based on how you feel about the character and his results. Unless something ridiculously massive shows up (Like, it turns out everyone has a standing infinite on MK), he's not going to get significantly worse.

If you think he's ban-worthy, then get the ban over with. If you don't, then play him. Time isn't going to be that big of a factor anymore.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sounds to me like you've been backed into a corner. You outright tell people to name 3 weaknesses for Dedede, argue about it, and then complain about why we brought it up when you can't think of anything left to say. :\

I was exaggerating. My point was that MK has weaknesses. The Dedede thing was my mistake, I already admitted that. I overrate him but I'd still rather fight MK than him because MK doesn't outcamp me all the time and he doesn't grab me out of everything and he only lives half as long as Dedede.

Alright. Here I am, playing Lucario at a tournament. Meta Knight gets paired against me. (Hmm! I can kill him at 50% on Corneria!). He bans Corneria. Now what? On the same note, Corneria is banned in various regions of the country. Also, now that I think about it, doesn't MK have a dtilt lock on the fin, and Sheik has nothing of the sort?

Thanks for ignoring 90% of the other stuff I mentioned in the OP. I also said it kills him on FD with 83% and FD has a high ceiling + no platforms. On Yoshis Island or Smasville you can just do it on the platform to kill him at "low" %. Other stages have low ceilings too: Halberd, Frigate Orpheon and Brinstar and these stages are not banned. Also I have no clue why you mention Lucario first and then Sheik, that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Isn't Sheik's (standing) grab range exactly the same as Meta Knight, although MK's dash grab is obviously much, much longer?

...and? Dedede's standing grab range is insane but does that mean you can't grab him? Why are characters like Bowser, DK and D3 screwed against the IC infinite despite having amazing grab range?

Doesn't Sheik only have hand-to-hand moves, while MK can DI in and out of range in one short hop, all the while outranging Sheik's grab?

MK's aerial mobility is pathetic, he can't DI "in and out of range in one short hop". If Sheik doesn't move, yeah but Sheik very mobile, why would she do that? Grabs don't have as much to do with grab range and overall range but with predicting aka players skill. Many players get grabbed by the ICs yet their grab range sucks? Strange isn't it? Because most of it depends on the player. There are only few characters who can grab you out of almost everything like Olimar, Dedede, Bowser or even Kirby. But you still grabbed by many characters. To say "MK can't be grabbed because he has better range" is invalid becuase you ignore the ability of the player

You're COMPLETELY oversimplifying this.

No. If I wanted to oversimplify this I'd say that you can grab MK out of everything and get a free CG all the time. I'm merely saying that a grab is an instant KO on FD if MK has 83% or more (in training mode) - and FD has a high ceiling. And this a fact not an opinion or a personal experience. The numbers prove me right and I never claimed anything else.

Meta Knight's size is not an overall weakness. It's a slight disadvantage against two or three characters in the cast, all of which are rarely seen in tournament play, especially in the few tournaments that allow Corneria. Also, Meta Knight still dominates Corneria just as much as they do with camping the fin, dtilt locks, Tornadoing up offscreen, etc.

As I said before: It doesn't only apply to Corneria but other stages too. Getting free KOs before 100% isn't a weakness? Yeah right.
Also: 2 or 3 characters? I didn't even mention all of them, since I didn't knew about Snake getting a free mortar slide at the time I wrote that. What about Marth getting a free tipper fair? What about Zamus getting a free KO move (and apparently a CG) and Bowser having a CG (works not only on Corneria )? How can you say, that this is not a weakness?

As of this moment, your only claim to why size is a BAD thing is because of Sheik and Zero Suit Samus,

And Bowser. And Marth. And all the other characters I mentioned in the OP. Plus characters I didn't mention like Snake.

both mid-tier characters who will very rarely be seen in tournament play.

That's the fault of the player. Also: Tiers are not absolute especially not now - it's only the first raw version of the tier list.

On the flip side, his size allows him to avoid a TON of powerful moves with little effort and make him a very hard target to connect sweetspotted moves with.

So what? That does not remove that weakness. It only gets outweighed by a better attribute. Is that a bad thing? It's merely the nature of a top tier character. It's like saying "Snake's weight makes up for his unimpressive recovery". Of course it's true but that doesn't mean that the weakness doesn't exist.

In most games, he'd be coupled with low range to offset this.

Kirys range isn't low either. Ivysaurs range isn't low either. Olimars range ins't low either. Toon Links range isn't low either, ...

Brawl isn't like "most games".

Instead he has arguably one of the best attacking ranges in the game. Size is not a bad thing, because only two characters can even benefit from it, while everyone else suffers!

Who's oversimplifying things now? There are many characters who don't suffer from his size at all. In fact only few do. On the other hand you say only two characters benefit from it? Are Sheik, Zamus, Bowser, Snake, Marth, Peach, Ike and Yoshi only "2 or 3" characters. These characters benefit from his size. And not "everybody else suffers". Falco, King Dedede, Olimar, Wario, Lucario, Kirby, Snake, Marth and lots of other characters don't suffer from that at all.

You claim DI horribly beats MK, and then go so far as to claim that any character, even Link can DI up and Dair him to his death.

I didn't say that. I said, that every character (minus King Dedede, DK and Bowser) can DI out of it. Many characters get a free Dair. I never said "Dair to death". Links Dair just happens to be a KO move, that's all.

You are just... wrong. There's no other way to put it. The Tornado is virtually unpunishable if used properly,

Many moves are unpunishable, if you use them properly. Have you ever punished a fully spaced ftilt from D3 or a fully spaced Dtilt from Marth? These moves are harder to punish than MKs nado and are equally spammable.

and you're saying it's completely unsafe.

I never said that. I said: "You can punish it without even Sheilding". That's a fact.
I siad it's not very safe. Is a move that can be punished without getting shield "safe"? Not really.

We freaking had to have an entire list devoted to moves that outprioritize the **** thing,

Who is "we"? Any notable player, who takes part in tournamest or even wins them? I know which moves can beat it from the side or above with my characters. One move is enough to do that...I don't need a fucking list to know which of my characters moves can beat it or not because I can just use that one move.

and the list is actually tiny, even with the moves that beat it out from above.

Does it matter? One move that beats it is more than enough. Even if you can't bveat it you can still Shield -> Dash grab it. And if the fails you still can DI to Dair it.
You have 3 options against that one move and all of them put MM in a bad position.

Actually, some characters can even run away from it, depending on where they are and get a free projctile / Range attack: Fox, Sheik, Marth and Zamus.

Characters like King Dedede have to freaking Bair from above it on a sweetspot with his terrible air speed, regardless of the fact that it gives Meta Knight virtually the best air speed in the game.

"Character like Dedede" are you saying? Who else than Dedede himself could you mean? I'm not aware that many characters are that screwed against the Nado - only DK is since he can't DI and his shield gets stabbed too often but he can esiliy beat it with ftilf, BownB or DK Paunch. Bowser can fully shield any tornado...so who exactly are the other characters "like dedede" you were reffering to?

To put it in perspective, the Tornado outruns my character, Lucario, and my ONLY option to punish it in the air is to get right above it and Dair.If my timing or aim is slightly off, I get hammered.

Why don't you learn the timing then if it's so rewarding to get a free dair? I mean can you get free Dair from other "broken" moves like Warios fsmash, Dededes bthrow or Marths Dancing Blade? You can't. But you can do it with MKs Nado. why don't you learn it and make use of it.

Also I'm pretty sure that there are moves Lucario has to Cancel it....(don't Quote me on it, since i dont know about Lucario but also seems to be a character who goes even with MK)

Also, if the tornado is shielded, he can just hover around you to drain your shield for a second, then simply float away so that you can't take advantage of the measly 23 frames of cooldown.

23 cooldown is measly? LMAO. Do you know how many free attacks you could get?

Shuttle Loop is not unsafe.

I know. Where did I say that? I said if he hit you from a bad position he's vulnerable for atacks. Again, just a fact.

It comes out in 5 frames, and as an insult to injury, it even has an invincible frame as it comes out.

It has one frame of invincibility (frame 5). Why does nobody complain about Wolfs 6 invincibility frames of his shine? Or the frames of Wario's fsmash? Or the 5 invincilibilty frames of Marths Dolphin Slash? Almost every character has some invincibility frames and most of them are longer than just one lousy frame.

That's as fast, or even faster than some character's jabs.

Name any? I can only think of Ganon...everything else comes out in 4 frames or faster. Maybe Ike? Idk,...can't be many.

Shuttle Loop has no lag upon landing, autocancels if for some reason he lands early, and cancels out immediately into an extremely easy-to-control glide with a kill move that comes out in 4 frames, has incredible kill power, insane priority, and freaking combos into other moves at lower percents.

Sheild one of these moves and you get free grab or fast move OoS (Marth's Dolphin Slash, Bowser UpB just to name the ones tht come to my mind right now). They don't put much pressure on your shield and are easy to predict if you know that somethings coming.

Shuttle Loop is unpunishable if it hits.

And which move isn't? Oh w8, it's the Tornado!

It's virtually unpunishable if it misses.

And? If it misses why do you worry about it? Besides, I don't think that's true. I'm sure some characters get a free projectile or something.

The only way to punish it is to predict it and attack him while he's doing it.

Or you can just run away and shoot a projectile. Or you interrupt him with an attack that has invincibility frames. What can he do if Wario Shields the first hit? The fsmash is aguaranteed hit. Same gies for everything else with invincibility frames.

Sure, its kill power goes up extremely slowly, but what kind of Meta Knight uses it from the center of the stage,

Why do you mention it then?

when he could be Dsmashing, which comes out in 4 frames, has a very low knockback angle, kills at 120% or so reliably, and sets up for a gimp if it doesn't?

That's strange. I can survive a fresh dsmash from the center of FD with 120%. Lots of KO moves come out similarily fast (Wolfs dsmash has 6 startup frames and his fsmash has 5. Snake ftilt comes out in 4 frames too and other KO moves can still beat it with SA or invincibility frames).

Maybe you are doing something wrong?

Weight is a legitimate weakness, and the only weakness that you listed that can be considered valid.

Not really. At the moment of writing this Peach, Ike, Marth , Snake, Bowser, Sheik, Zelda, Zamus, Yoshi, Diddy Kong and Ivysaur benefit from his size, while Falco, Fox, Wario, Olimar, King Dedede, Donkey Kong, G&W, Kirby, Lucario, Toon Link and Link don't suffer.

Furthermore Mario, Luigi, Peach, Olimar, Wario, Toon Link, Link, G&W, Falco, Fox, Snake, Yoshi, Diddy Kong, Squirtle, Ness, Lucas, Zelda, Lucario, Kirby, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Sheik and Sonic can DI out + Dair the Nado.

That's pretty much every character.

Only D3, Bowser and DK can't DI the nado but they can either beat it (all of them with ftilt) or Sheild Punish (Booza)[/QUOTE]

 

[adumbrodeus]

...and? Dedede's standing grab range is insane but does that mean you can't grab him? Why are characters like Bowser, DK and D3 screwed against the IC infinite despite having amazing grab range?

You grab on punishment.

The reason those characters are screwed against ICs is that they have a poor spacing game in general.

Generally speaking, grabs sucks against ICs because of the two of them being present. The trick is being able to outspace them, hence why Marth beats them.

The guys you mention have poor enough spacing games that ICs can reliably grab them.

MK's aerial mobility is pathetic, he can't DI "in and out of range in one short hop". If Sheik doesn't move, yeah but Sheik very mobile, why would she do that? Grabs don't have as much to do with grab range and overall range but with predicting aka players skill. Many players get grabbed by the ICs yet their grab range sucks? Strange isn't it? Because most of it depends on the player. There are only few characters who can grab you out of almost everything like Olimar, Dedede, Bowser or even Kirby. But you still grabbed by many characters. To say "MK can't be grabbed because he has better range" is invalid becuase you ignore the ability of the player

Grabs are not a "one size fits all" issue. Firstly we're talking about the top levels of play, so a character with a strong advantage against getting grabbed doesn't do so without being weaker skill-wise then their opponent.

MK has a GREAT spacing game, so he shouldn't be getting grabbed, period.

 

[Killer Napalm]

He's light and mr game and wch and kill him at 40 fmash i know trust me.

 

[Flamingo777]

I'm glad he posted the Usmash sheik had on MK, Thank you! He is not immortal!

 

[da K.I.D.]

i wouldnt say that the fact that he is small is a MK weakness.
because it makes him hard to hit

id say that its more a strength for other characters since they are taller than him, but that may just be me arguing semantics

 

[Kitamerby]

i wouldnt say that the fact that he is small is a MK weakness.
because it makes him hard to hit

id say that its more a strength for other characters since they are taller than him, but that may just be me arguing semantics

No, actually, Gheb is right. The taller characters like Ganondorf get to go on the big boy rides. MK has to wait until he's older. ):

I was exaggerating.

That was the part I was looking for.

Thanks for ignoring 90% of the other stuff I mentioned in the OP. I also said it kills him on FD with 83% and FD has a high ceiling + no platforms. On Yoshis Island or Smasville you can just do it on the platform to kill him at "low" %. Other stages have low ceilings too: Halberd, Frigate Orpheon and Brinstar and these stages are not banned. Also I have no clue why you mention Lucario first and then Sheik, that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Once again, you go off and state that I have ignored "90% of the other stuff in the OP," when I clearly respond to it all later on. Anyways, Final Destination has the middle point out of all stages in terms of ceiling height, last I checked. Also, in order to kill Meta Knight with a SWEETSPOTTED Usmash at 83%, which is no easy feat, Sheik has to grab the character with absolutely the best spacing ability in the game. At high level play, there is no way in hell this is going to happen before MK gets that 4-frame Dsmash off at 110%, or outright gimps her earlier, which is entirely possible with Sheik's... somewhat-lacking recovery when faced with Meta Knight's offstage game. Anyways, I guess I made a mistake. I meant to say that I would be able to counterpick Corneria and kill him at 50%. The point of the matter is that Meta Knight is just as advantaged as Sheik is on Corneria.

...and? Dedede's standing grab range is insane but does that mean you can't grab him? Why are characters like Bowser, DK and D3 screwed against the IC infinite despite having amazing grab range?

MK's aerial mobility is pathetic, he can't DI "in and out of range in one short hop". If Sheik doesn't move, yeah but Sheik very mobile, why would she do that? Grabs don't have as much to do with grab range and overall range but with predicting aka players skill. Many players get grabbed by the ICs yet their grab range sucks? Strange isn't it? Because most of it depends on the player. There are only few characters who can grab you out of almost everything like Olimar, Dedede, Bowser or even Kirby. But you still grabbed by many characters. To say "MK can't be grabbed because he has better range" is invalid becuase you ignore the ability of the player

Adumbrodeus covered this quite nicely. I'll go with what he said.

No. If I wanted to oversimplify this I'd say that you can grab MK out of everything and get a free CG all the time. I'm merely saying that a grab is an instant KO on FD if MK has 83% or more (in training mode) - and FD has a high ceiling. And this a fact not an opinion or a personal experience. The numbers prove me right and I never claimed anything else.

Final Destination has a middle-height ceiling. Jungle Japes has a high ceiling. The point of the matter is that you must first grab Meta Knight when he's past 79% (I'm giving you a bit of leeway for a jab or two). This is much harder than it seems.

As I said before: It doesn't only apply to Corneria but other stages too. Getting free KOs before 100% isn't a weakness? Yeah right.
Also: 2 or 3 characters? I didn't even mention all of them, since I didn't knew about Snake getting a free mortar slide at the time I wrote that. What about Marth getting a free tipper fair? What about Zamus getting a free KO move (and apparently a CG) and Bowser having a CG (works not only on Corneria )? How can you say, that this is not a weakness?

If it was a true weakness, wouldn't most of those characters you mentioned have, yanno, an advantageous matchup against Meta Knight? Instead, I see the Marth mains stating that Meta Knight is their worst matchup, the ZSS mains wanting the match changed to even, the Bowser mains wanting 45:55, and the Snake mains seeing the grab release as having absolutely no effect on their view of the matchup?

And Bowser. And Marth. And all the other characters I mentioned in the OP. Plus characters I didn't mention like Snake.

Marth gets a Fair. Whoop dee doo. Bowser has to freaking catch Meta Knight in order to grab-release him, and with his horrid grab range, that's not going to happen very easily.

That's the fault of the player. Also: Tiers are not absolute especially not now - it's only the first raw version of the tier list.

Find a tournament where the Zero Suit Samus users and/or the Sheik users outnumber the Marth users at a tournament. The tournament must have more than 15 people. Gogo.

So what? That does not remove that weakness. It only gets outweighed by a better attribute. Is that a bad thing? It's merely the nature of a top tier character. It's like saying "Snake's weight makes up for his unimpressive recovery". Of course it's true but that doesn't mean that the weakness doesn't exist.

No it isn't! You're comparing two things which are entirely different! Snake's weight is not his recovery. Snake's recovery is not his weight. A better example would be saying that Melee Fox's fastfalling attribute allows him to be true combo'd from Jigglypuff's Uthrow into her Rest. However, this fastfalling attribute also prevents him from dying off the top, allows him to perform aerial attacks at lightning speed, and overall contributed, rather than detracted to him getting the #1 spot in Melee. However, this information alone does NOT allow you to simply write off Fox's fastfalling as an outright weakness, since the only character it is actually a weakness to is Jigglypuff! Heck, this example is much more extreme than Meta Knight's, since NOBODY in Brawl get's a 0-Death, or even a kill below 70% on a stage other than Corneria on Meta Knight out of a grab, unlike Melee Fox.

Kirys range isn't low either. Ivysaurs range isn't low either. Olimars range ins't low either. Toon Links range isn't low either, ...

Every single one of Kirby's moves bar his projectile are outranged by Snake's Utilt. Olimar and Ivysaur are completely different cases, as they truly ARE equipped with a crippling weakness, despite their advantages in size and range. Toon Link is not "small." I consider any character with a t-frame shorter than the Ice Climbers to be truly "small." Jigglypuff is small. Look at her range. Squirtle is small. Look at that range. Kirby is small. Heck, I could believe Ice Climbers could be considered small. Their hammers are tiny now, and their grab range is itty bitty.

Brawl isn't like "most games".

Yes, it is.

Who's oversimplifying things now? There are many characters who don't suffer from his size at all. In fact only few do. On the other hand you say only two characters benefit from it? Are Sheik, Zamus, Bowser, Snake, Marth, Peach, Ike and Yoshi only "2 or 3" characters. These characters benefit from his size. And not "everybody else suffers". Falco, King Dedede, Olimar, Wario, Lucario, Kirby, Snake, Marth and lots of other characters don't suffer from that at all.

On your list, only Snake and Marth are above High tier. Marth is STILL at a disadvantage to Meta Knight, Ike, Peach, Yoshi, Bowser, and Sheik still are disadvantaged, Zero Suit is mid tier and rarer than a dog at a flea market, and Snake is popular as hell, yet Meta Knight last I checked had over 3 times as much tournament success as Snake has, even after the discovery of this "weakness." King Dedede, Olimar, Wario, Lucario, Kirby, Snake, and lots of other characters DO suffer. Here's an example. As Lucario, I can rising short hop fair to Dair most of the cast. I can't do that to Meta Knight without being dangerously close.

I didn't say that. I said, that every character (minus King Dedede, DK and Bowser) can DI out of it. Many characters get a free Dair. I never said "Dair to death". Links Dair just happens to be a KO move, that's all.

"Many characters" do not get a free Dair. Most characters can barely DI out of it before the final hit, while many still absolutely cannot DI out of it. Only the floatiest portion of the cast, and even then, only the few with a fast enough dair, can truly get out and Dair them. Link sure as hell can't.

Many moves are unpunishable, if you use them properly. Have you ever punished a fully spaced ftilt from D3 or a fully spaced Dtilt from Marth? These moves are harder to punish than MKs nado and are equally spammable.

Neither of those moves can be activated from halfway across FD, drain my shield to half strength, then have him float back to recover before I can blink twice.

I never said that. I said: "You can punish it without even Sheilding". That's a fact.
I siad it's not very safe. Is a move that can be punished without getting shield "safe"? Not really.

...It's the same freaking thing! It's completely and utterly safe! Only a very very tiny margin can even reliably break through without strenuous setup or incredible prediction! You cannot punish Meta Knight's Tornado with most of the cast if you get stuck in it.

Who is "we"? Any notable player, who takes part in tournamest or even wins them? I know which moves can beat it from the side or above with my characters. One move is enough to do that...I don't need a fucking list to know which of my characters moves can beat it or not because I can just use that one move.

We being Smashboards. Alright. Here's a Scenario. I'm Captain Falcon... Actually wait, he's too low tier. Alright, I'm Luigi. Actually no, here's a better example. I'm King Dedede. I'm in the air above Final Destination. Meta Knight starts up his Tornado just out of Ftilt range. He comes into me from the side. What the hell am I supposed to do? If I airdodge, he'll catch me in my landing frames. If I Bair, NOTHING HAPPENS, because I have to do it while I'm directly above him with my crap air speed. If I do nothing, I still get caught! I cannot do anything! I cannot punish the Tornado no matter what I do. How the hell is this not a safe move?

Does it matter? One move that beats it is more than enough. Even if you can't bveat it you can still Shield -> Dash grab it. And if the fails you still can DI to Dair it.
You have 3 options against that one move and all of them put MM in a bad position.

One move? One move for one character, you mean. And I don't know what kind of idiots you must be facing, if you can freaking dash grab during their cooldown. Also, I've gone over the fact that very few characters can actually Dair MK out of his tornado once caught in it.

Actually, some characters can even run away from it, depending on where they are and get a free projctile / Range attack: Fox, Sheik, Marth and Zamus.

...No. Just no.

"Character like Dedede" are you saying? Who else than Dedede himself could you mean? I'm not aware that many characters are that screwed against the Nado - only DK is since he can't DI and his shield gets stabbed too often but he can esiliy beat it with ftilf, BownB or DK Paunch. Bowser can fully shield any tornado...so who exactly are the other characters "like dedede" you were reffering to?

...Did you just say the Hand Slap was a viable defense against the tornado? You know what? I'm cutting this short. There's nothing more to discuss. You are horribly misguided and wrong. You have no argument. You are talking out of your rear end with absolutely no basis. This thread has served its purpose. You have attempted to expose Meta Knight's "weaknesses" and fallen flat on your face in the process. Good day to you, sir.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You grab on punishment.

What?

The reason those characters are screwed against ICs is that they have a poor spacing game in general.

olololol, DK and D3 have bad spacing?

Generally speaking, grabs sucks against ICs because of the two of them being present. The trick is being able to outspace them, hence why Marth beats them.

That has 0 to do with what I said. I merely said, that a superir grab range doesn't make a character un-grabbable.

The guys you mention have poor enough spacing games that ICs can reliably grab them.

No, they just have gigantic hurtboxes but that misses the point once more.

Grabs are not a "one size fits all" issue. Firstly we're talking about the top levels of play, so a character with a strong advantage against getting grabbed doesn't do so without being weaker skill-wise then their opponent.

It does happen on the highest level.

MK has a GREAT spacing game, so he shouldn't be getting grabbed, period.

It does happen on the highest level.

That was the part I was looking for.

I already said it like 3 or 2 pages ago

Anyways, Final Destination has the middle point out of all stages in terms of ceiling height, last I checked.

It has to be long ago, last time you checked. If you count stages like Hyrule Temple or something like that, sure you're right. But of all allowed stages, FD has one of the highest ceilings, even without a platform. BF, YI, Halberd, Brinstar, SV, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon all either have a lower ceiling, a high platform or both.

Also, in order to kill Meta Knight with a SWEETSPOTTED Usmash at 83%, which is no easy feat, Sheik has to grab the character with absolutely the best spacing ability in the game.

A jump released DACUS always sweetspots

At high level play, there is no way in hell this is going to happen before MK gets that 4-frame Dsmash off at 110%,

How do you know that? Has that match-up ever been played on the highest level so many times, that you can say this for sure? 83% isn't that much in Brawl. Sheik can reliably KO MK 30% earlier than MK can KO Sheik. Is that not an advanzage?

or outright gimps her earlier, which is entirely possible with Sheik's... somewhat-lacking recovery when faced with Meta Knight's offstage game.

She has options. She's invincible during her UpB and she has a tether recovery too, just in case. If she recovers from high above (which will happen a lot with good DI) she can just Fat Fall airddge or recover downwards towards the stage with up B through any move MK uses or she can just Dair to fall quickly towards the stage. To say that MK easily gimps her once more ignores the fact that a player can make use of her many options.

Anyways, I guess I made a mistake. I meant to say that I would be able to counterpick Corneria and kill him at 50%. The point of the matter is that Meta Knight is just as advantaged as Sheik is on Corneria.

You're sure? If he is KOed at 50% after being grabbed? I think it's even as long as Sheik stays away from the very right side....

Final Destination has a middle-height ceiling.

But of all the allowed stages it has one of the highest

Jungle Japes has a high ceiling.

But it's the only allowed stage with a higher ceiling than FD and it's not even allowed everywhere. Many TOs ban it. Besides MK isn't good at Japes, since he gets KO'd on the side's very early....

The point of the matter is that you must first grab Meta Knight when he's past 79% (I'm giving you a bit of leeway for a jab or two). This is much harder than it seems.

"Harder than it seems"? I don't know how hard it seems to you.

If it was a true weakness, wouldn't most of those characters you mentioned have, yanno, an advantageous matchup against Meta Knight?

No. MK can exploit the opponents weaknesses too. Sheik has a disadvantage no doubt. But she can make the match-up even on some stages.

Instead, I see the Marth mains stating that Meta Knight is their worst matchup,

...and? When did I say that he doesn't have the disadvantage?

the ZSS mains wanting the match changed to even,

That's a major difference: Having a disadvantage and going even....

the Bowser mains wanting 45:55,

Yet another close to neutral match-up (most high level Bowsers say it's 50:50 and Bowser can CP MK on FD, Castle Siege, Brinstar and Halbers)

and the Snake mains seeing the grab release as having absolutely no effect on their view of the matchup?

Because Snake already has the advantage and he has better options out of a grab than tha jump release mortar Slide?

Marth gets a Fair. Whoop dee doo.

A tippered fair, which is a guaranteed, sweetspotted hit of a potential KO move. WHOOP DE DOO!

Bowser has to freaking catch Meta Knight in order to grab-release him, and with his horrid grab range, that's not going to happen very easily.

Bowser can grab MK out of the Tornado

/discussion (you know nothing about Bowser)

Find a tournament where the Zero Suit Samus users and/or the Sheik users outnumber the Marth users at a tournament. The tournament must have more than 15 people. Gogo.

erm...why?

No it isn't! You're comparing two things which are entirely different! Snake's weight is not his recovery. Snake's recovery is not his weight.

OK, then let me say it like this: Snakes recovery leaves him open for attacks but that is outweighed by the fact that it travels a long distance (same goes for D3).

A better example would be saying that Melee Fox's fastfalling attribute allows him to be true combo'd from Jigglypuff's Uthrow into her Rest. However, this fastfalling attribute also prevents him from dying off the top, allows him to perform aerial attacks at lightning speed, and overall contributed, rather than detracted to him getting the #1 spot in Melee. However, this information alone does NOT allow you to simply write off Fox's fastfalling as an outright weakness, since the only character it is actually a weakness to is Jigglypuff!

And in MKs case this is a weakness to Snake, Marth, Ike, Peach, Sheik, Zelda, Bowser, Zamus, Ivysaur, Yoshi and apparently Diddy Kong.

Heck, this example is much more extreme than Meta Knight's, since NOBODY in Brawl get's a 0-Death, or even a kill below 70% on a stage other than Corneria on Meta Knight out of a grab, unlike Melee Fox.

Melee =/= Brawl
70% is much in Melee, in Brawl it's about mid. In Brawl you die at 120% on average (or higher) on Melee you often die at 50%. Terrible comparision.

Every single one of Kirby's moves bar his projectile are outranged by Snake's Utilt.

And? Snake's utilt even outranges attacks of Marth.

Olimar and Ivysaur are completely different cases, as they truly ARE equipped with a crippling weakness, despite their advantages in size and range.

And? They are small and have range. I wasn't talking about their weaknesses. It has nothing to do ith what I said.

Toon Link is not "small." I consider any character with a t-frame shorter than the Ice Climbers to be truly "small."

I don't care what you condsider. Toon Link is a small character.

Jigglypuff is small. Look at her range. Squirtle is small. Look at that range.

They suck.

Kirby is small.

His range is pretty good, especially his grabs

Heck, I could believe Ice Climbers could be considered small. Their hammers are tiny now, and their grab range is itty bitty.

Why are you mentioning them in the first place? I never did....

On your list, only Snake and Marth are above High tier.

The tier list is not absolute. It's the first raw version and many things need to be corrected. There is little to no agreement on it.

Marth is STILL at a disadvantage to Meta Knight

Did I ever say anything else?

, Ike, Peach, Yoshi, Bowser, and Sheik still are disadvantaged,

Bowser certainly isn't. I'm not sure about Yoshi

Zero Suit is mid tier and rarer than a dog at a flea market,

That's the fault of the players.

and Snake is popular as hell, yet Meta Knight last I checked had over 3 times as much tournament success as Snake has, even after the discovery of this "weakness."

Tournament results show how popular a characer it. There are no (recent) videos of MK vs Snake and Snake is relatively underplayed. Many good players play MK and veeeeeeeery few play Snake. Of course his results are worse but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the advantage.

King Dedede, Olimar, Wario, Lucario, Kirby, Snake, and lots of other characters DO suffer.

Explain closer.

Here's an example. As Lucario, I can rising short hop fair to Dair most of the cast.

Lucario =/= King Dedede, Olimar, Wario, Kirby, Snake and lots of other characters.

I can't do that to Meta Knight without being dangerously close.

You can't do it to Marth either. Why? Because they have range. What does it have to do with size?

"Many characters" do not get a free Dair.

More than 50% of the characters do.

Most characters can barely DI out of it before the final hit,

All except D3, Bowser and DK can

while many still absolutely cannot DI out of it.

Only D3, Bowser and DK can't.

Only the floatiest portion of the cast, and even then, only the few with a fast enough dair, can truly get out and Dair them.

MK isn't floaty, yet he can do it. Fox has the highest falling speed, yet he can do it.

Link sure as hell can't.

Yes, he can.

Neither of those moves can be activated from halfway across FD, drain my shield to half strength, then have him float back to recover before I can blink twice.

None of MKs moves can do that.

...It's the same freaking thing! It's completely and utterly safe! Only a very very tiny margin can even reliably break through without strenuous setup or incredible prediction! You cannot punish Meta Knight's Tornado with most of the cast if you get stuck in it.

Yes, MKs Nado is one of the only move you can punish without even shielding it. It's not safe. Sheild it and you get a free dash grab (jump rleases anyone?) or a fast move OoS. Don't shield it and you can - depending on the character - just run away and get free projectiles. Don't shield it and some characters can beat it with a move first. Don't shield it, don't beat it and don't run away and you can still punish it with good DI. If that's safe, then almost every move in this game is

We being Smashboards. Alright. Here's a Scenario. I'm Captain Falcon... Actually wait, he's too low tier. Alright, I'm Luigi. Actually no, here's a better example. I'm King Dedede.

Horrible Exapmle. D3 can't DI out of it...

I'm in the air above Final Destination. Meta Knight starts up his Tornado just out of Ftilt range. He comes into me from the side. What the hell am I supposed to do? If I airdodge, he'll catch me in my landing frames. If I Bair, NOTHING HAPPENS, because I have to do it while I'm directly above him with my crap air speed.

Why do you need air speed if MK chases you with the Tornado? If he chases your bair beats it.

Make sense. please.

If I do nothing, I still get caught!

Yes, doing nothing never helps

I cannot do anything! I cannot punish the Tornado no matter what I do.

No matter what you do? You just painted one of the worst thinkable scenario's that could happen to D3 and he can de facto get out of it. And you claim to be unable to do anything? Maybe you're just not trying hard enough...because I know other Lucario players who manage to beat it a lot...with fsmash for exapmle before it even hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcEwlpVlCC8

Santi can punish the Tornado after getting hits by every single hit of the Tornado.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgD339qR8X4 @ 0:13

Strange isn't it? Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the tornado but rather with you as a player?

In this Video (and the one below) Azen beats the Tornado half of the time and he does not shield them. He beats the shuttle Loop with a sh fair too. And his opponent was Forte. kthxbai

How the hell is this not a safe move?

Read above

One move? One move for one character, you mean. And I don't know what kind of idiots you must be facing, if you can freaking dash grab during their cooldown.

I don't play idiots.

But you just called Korn an idiot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjvogiP_-sU
3:22 - 3:23. He gets grabed out of the Tornado after getting shielded

Also, I've gone over the fact that very few characters can actually Dair MK out of his tornado once caught in it.

You must be a very bad player then because Lucario can

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd-0vEfge2M
0:31: Azen DI's out of the Tornado at once and punishes it.

...No. Just no.

Of course

...Did you just say the Hand Slap was a viable defense against the tornado?

No. I said it can beat the tornado. It seems to be typical for you to make false assumptions and conclusions out of the mere facts I stated.

You know what? I'm cutting this short. There's nothing more to discuss. You are horribly misguided and wrong. You have no argument. You are talking out of your rear end with absolutely no basis. This thread has served its purpose. You have attempted to expose Meta Knight's "weaknesses" and fallen flat on your face in the process. Good day to you, sir.

You have no evidence of the thjings you say. Kthxbai

 

[Deoxys]

Dsmash doesn't do anything by frame 4. It hits on frame 5 in the front. Just thought I ought to correct this mistake someone said recently.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What?

As a reaction to another move, that's punishment.

olololol, DK and D3 have bad spacing?

Yes, they do. Their range is good, but their attacks are punishable in general. If not immediately, it's pretty easy to crawl against them.

That has 0 to do with what I said. I merely said, that a superir grab range doesn't make a character un-grabbable.

And what I was pointing out is that doesn't really matter, because that's not the criteria that decides if a character is ungrabbable in a match-up.

Also, you might wanna keep in mind that ICs have a special resistance to grabbing because there are 2 of them. Other characters with inferior grab range have a lot harder time spacing for a grab, period.

No, they just have gigantic hurtboxes but that misses the point once more.

Which you couldn't reach without their inferior spacing game (with grab subtracted). The giant hurtboxes just make the infinite easier.

It does happen on the highest level.

If it happens more then like once a match then the player that it happened to is a weaker player, specifically on the mindgames department.

 

[ShengNu]

really nice thread i like thanks for the info

 

[Mmac]

This is what I don't get... If Bowser is a contestant for Even, and Yoshi does everything Bowser does in this matchup but much better, howcome Yoshi is considered disadvantaged and biased in this matchup by the majority?...

 

[momochuu]

Did he just say Kirby has a good grab range?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Many moves are unpunishable, if you use them properly. Have you ever punished a fully spaced ftilt from D3 or a fully spaced Dtilt from Marth? These moves are harder to punish than MKs nado and are equally spammable.

I lol'd so hard at this.

When those tilts can follow you around and outprioritize all of your moves and basically give a free 5-16% whenever they want, as well as providing a fantastic recovery option, then you can equalize them to the whorenado.

 

[brinboy789]

Did he just say Kirby has a good grab range?

well, its mediocre IMO...

lol @ HUGE multiquote walls >_> tl;dr

 

[ZeroFox]

I like how Gheb just tore apart someone's post lol.

*applauds*

 

[Deleted member]

D3's problems:
Size
Recovery(easy to rack damage on him)
Approach(isnt good, and many characters outcamp. When yoshi outcamps you, there's a problem XD)


Ok 3.

 

[samalamading]

wow good thread. But you forgot about yoshi's Chain Grab, why all the yoshi hate?

 

[Tenki]

He wasn't mentioning character-specific weaknesses, I think.

 

[samalamading]

no, but he failed to mention the CG, which is a huge disadvantage on Mk

 

[OmegaExile]

whats DI?

sorry i'm not too farmiliar with the SSBB language yet

 

[Remzi]

Gheb, you have to be completely honest here. MK is in fact the most difficult character to grab. His combination of speed and range makes it so that you can only grab him if he makes a big mistake. Maybe D3 won't have too much trouble grabbing him, for anyone else, you're gonna have a hell of a time getting a hold on him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Again, you ignore the fact that a good part of getting grabbed is based on players skill. Besides Wario is harder to grab than MK (just as an example).

I won't deny that MK is hard to grab though.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Again, you ignore the fact that a good part of getting grabbed is based on players skill. Besides Wario is harder to grab than MK (just as an example).

I won't deny that MK is hard to grab though.

Yes, and it's player skill that allows you to hit with Ike's f-smash...


We're talking about even skill and because of Mk's inherent and signifigant advantage against grabbing, he really SHOULDN'T be getting grabbed. Just like Wario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, and it's player skill that allows you to hit with Ike's f-smash...


We're talking about even skill and because of Mk's inherent and signifigant advantage against grabbing, he really SHOULDN'T be getting grabbed. Just like Wario.

You know what you just did? You compared Ikes smash with a grab

Auto-fail.

 

[Remzi]

Again, you ignore the fact that a good part of getting grabbed is based on players skill. Besides Wario is harder to grab than MK (just as an example).

I won't deny that MK is hard to grab though.

Player skill should not be factored into matchup ratios. We should assume the MK is playing without making any big mistakes, and as long as they don't, they will not be getting grabbed. I'd agree that Wario is probably harder to grab, but in all actuality, neither should be getting grabbed at all.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Player skill should not be factored into matchup ratios.

I wasn't talking about match-up ratios in the first place.

When did I mention them?

We should assume the MK is playing without making any big mistakes, and as long as they don't, they will not be getting grabbed.

Saying this again? You still ignore the fact that opponents can read each other.
M2K gets grabbed by Azens Lucario and Lucarios grab range sucks. Everybody makes mistakes.

If match-up's ratios ignore mistakes, they fail.

I'd agree that Wario is probably harder to grab, but in all actuality, neither should be getting grabbed at all.

What "should" happen has no value, if it doesn't work out that way IRL.


You can bring up your theorycrafting as many times as you like. It won't change what happens in reality.

 

[Remzi]

LOL, idk why i said matchup ratios, I wasn't thinking. However, when talking about a characters weaknesses, we should be talking about inherent problems that they will always be facing. As long as the MK spaces well, he won't get grabbed. His height isn't a weakness if he doesn't get grabbed, which he shouldn't.

I understand that people make mistakes, but we are talking about Metaknight here, not metaknight players. The character metaknight shouldn't get grabbed. And any good MK player will very rarely get grabbed anyways.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

By your logic no character will ever get grabbed. They just have to space perfectly.

That's the same as saying: "A perfectly camping Olimar beats MK". Wolf can shine through everything,. Does he beat everybody 100:0 then? No he doesn't. Although he should because Wolf as a character makes no mistakes

 

[Remzi]

No theres, a difference. Just as you said, "You know what you just did? You compared Ikes smash with a grab. Auto-fail."

You're comparing the difficulty of MK's spacing to everyone elses spacing. With MK, you have the range and the speed to easily avoid getting grabbed. Most good MK's right now, don't get grabbed more than once or twice a match. Same deal with your Wolf and Olimar comparisons, they are a lot more difficult than just spacing well with MK.