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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
- Start date
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IIIIRICK
Smash Journeyman
i need help with it also. MK dittos are so dumb.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Honestly I enjoy the MK ditto. It's a really fun match, imo.
What is it in the ditto that you are having trouble with?
What is it in the ditto that you are having trouble with?
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
I think it's fun too, I'm just not very good at it.
I got the basics down:
Tornado is not very good, dair camping doesn't work, being above MK is bad, ledge drop nair to reverse SL is good, ftilt is good
I'm having trouble approaching and racking up damage in general.
I got the basics down:
Tornado is not very good, dair camping doesn't work, being above MK is bad, ledge drop nair to reverse SL is good, ftilt is good
I'm having trouble approaching and racking up damage in general.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Well here's what I know about the MK ditto (if I'm wrong on any of this, correct me please 
)
Tornado has uses. Like if the other MK glides to you, I learned that tornado pretty much ***** most of his options. It can be used to deal damage to certain ways of recovering (like reverse SLing or something). I noticed a lot of this when I watched Tyrant and DSF fight M2K at TP5 on the stream.
If you shield a FAir I'm pretty sure that you get a free up-B (if they space it perfectly you maaaay not be able to, but I'm pretty sure you can).
Mostly space with Dtilts, Ftilts, and retreating FAirs and stuff.
For approaching, generally just walking towards the opponent works. Sometimes after a FAir in place, buffering a dash attack can catch them off guard and get some free damage, but if they expect it you can get punished hard, so don't be predictable with it.
If they mispace something on your shield (like if they glide attack your shield or something), NAir oos them, it deals a lot of damage and is really good for punishment in general
When he's above you, do everything you can to punish/juggle him.
Fsmash can actually be pretty useful; because of its low endlag. Don't be too predictable with it or you'll get punished, though.
Throws are good, of course.
Pretty much you just have to punish everything he spaces badly and such, and just in general play smarter than your opponent.
)Tornado has uses. Like if the other MK glides to you, I learned that tornado pretty much ***** most of his options. It can be used to deal damage to certain ways of recovering (like reverse SLing or something). I noticed a lot of this when I watched Tyrant and DSF fight M2K at TP5 on the stream.
If you shield a FAir I'm pretty sure that you get a free up-B (if they space it perfectly you maaaay not be able to, but I'm pretty sure you can
).Mostly space with Dtilts, Ftilts, and retreating FAirs and stuff.
For approaching, generally just walking towards the opponent works. Sometimes after a FAir in place, buffering a dash attack can catch them off guard and get some free damage, but if they expect it you can get punished hard, so don't be predictable with it.
If they mispace something on your shield (like if they glide attack your shield or something), NAir oos them, it deals a lot of damage and is really good for punishment in general
When he's above you, do everything you can to punish/juggle him.
Fsmash can actually be pretty useful; because of its low endlag. Don't be too predictable with it or you'll get punished, though.
Throws are good, of course.
Pretty much you just have to punish everything he spaces badly and such, and just in general play smarter than your opponent.
Kel
Smash Master
We should get an actual MK main picture going at MLG C-bus.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
stay grounded
dont tornado him
ftilt dtilt are really good
GSL beats a lot he has
you can do stuff OoS on 4th hit of Gw's bair if he spaces it bad
tech his downthrow
theunabletable
Smash Lord
To elaborate a bit. When he says stay grounded, he means STAY ****ING GROUNDED. G&W beats you in the air. Like flat out wins. Hiis DAir outranges your UAir (you can space it kinda diagonally below him and beat out DAir, but it's hard to do consistently on a target that knows you're trying to), his FAir either beats, or trades with, your FAir, and his BAir outranges you too. And being above him is stupid as hell. You CANNOT DAir camp him. It does not work.
By don't tornado him, he means that if you tornado him and he DIs it right, he can up-B you, which puts you way up high, and can end you in a freefall WAY the **** above the stage. Which gives him the chance to 9 you (first time I ever played a G&W in tourney, I tornado him 5 seconds in, get up-B'd, then 9'd... it's gay). If you do tornado him and it hits him, the safest thing to do is usually just move across the stage ASAP, so that if he does DI it up, you don't get punished. It can be a pretty safe recovery option (G&W can attack you off stage because his recovery is dumb).
Stay grounded and Ftilt and Dtilt him a lot. It outranges everything he has on the ground.
SL OoS punishes all of his aerials, IIRC (maybe not BAir if he spaces it perfectly). Don't just try and SL him from the ground (not all the time anyway. Use it sparingly. It's an option, but a somewhat dangerous one), he can bait it and punish you.
If you do get hit by BAir, learn to DI it so that you either take really low damage, or if you're really good at DI, punish him for hitting you lol...
I *think* if you techroll his Dthrow away from him, he has no options, but I could be wrong. I think it just returns you to a neutral position.
Sometimes, though, teching isn't the best option. Like G&Ws like to jab immediately after Dthrow, then grab. If they don't expect it, you can SDI the jab away and take no punishment, or SDI it way the **** behind him, and punish. It's hilarious and is doable.
Oh and WHATEVER YOU DO... do NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER go above G&W... EVER
His UAir windbox is gay as hell and refreshes his moves, along with putting you in a reaaaaaaaally bad position.
G&Ws usually like to DAir a lot. Your Utilt beats it, so it's situationally useful in this matchup, or you can shield > NAir/SL
It can be an annoying matchup, but it's definitely in MKs favor by a large amount. I hope I didn't forget anything...
By don't tornado him, he means that if you tornado him and he DIs it right, he can up-B you, which puts you way up high, and can end you in a freefall WAY the **** above the stage. Which gives him the chance to 9 you (first time I ever played a G&W in tourney, I tornado him 5 seconds in, get up-B'd, then 9'd... it's gay). If you do tornado him and it hits him, the safest thing to do is usually just move across the stage ASAP, so that if he does DI it up, you don't get punished. It can be a pretty safe recovery option (G&W can attack you off stage because his recovery is dumb).
Stay grounded and Ftilt and Dtilt him a lot. It outranges everything he has on the ground.
SL OoS punishes all of his aerials, IIRC (maybe not BAir if he spaces it perfectly). Don't just try and SL him from the ground (not all the time anyway. Use it sparingly. It's an option, but a somewhat dangerous one), he can bait it and punish you.
If you do get hit by BAir, learn to DI it so that you either take really low damage, or if you're really good at DI, punish him for hitting you lol...
I *think* if you techroll his Dthrow away from him, he has no options, but I could be wrong. I think it just returns you to a neutral position.
Sometimes, though, teching isn't the best option. Like G&Ws like to jab immediately after Dthrow, then grab. If they don't expect it, you can SDI the jab away and take no punishment, or SDI it way the **** behind him, and punish. It's hilarious and is doable.
Oh and WHATEVER YOU DO... do NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER go above G&W... EVER
His UAir windbox is gay as hell and refreshes his moves, along with putting you in a reaaaaaaaally bad position.
G&Ws usually like to DAir a lot. Your Utilt beats it, so it's situationally useful in this matchup, or you can shield > NAir/SL
It can be an annoying matchup, but it's definitely in MKs favor by a large amount. I hope I didn't forget anything...
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
You can't nair his key out of shield if he spaces it anything better than the "absolutely ****ty" level.
Up tilt is very good against GW, it straight up beats his dair.
Up B out of shield does indeed beat the turtle.
Ftilt and dtilt completely outrange and shut out his ground moveset, lol. It's pretty much the entire matchup.
GW can punish you for tech rolling with a regrab, bair, dash attack, and potentially fair (likely the weak hit). To tech the dthrow 100% of the time, turn the volume up on the TV. Hit L/R on the fifth (last) beep of the throw.
Don't fall for the trap of trying to punish his smashes on block unless you powershield or are extremely apt at timing them. They've all got a lot of shieldstun/push with small cooldown times, and GWs will abuse the hell out of you for not being wary of it.
You can shield every hit of GW's bair, then quickly flash your shield (let go of your shield button and then hit it again immediately) to powershield the landing hit of it, allowing many more punishing options. This includes shield drop dsmash.
Don't be an idiot off the edge, or you're getting up B'd into the level.
Up tilt is very good against GW, it straight up beats his dair.
Up B out of shield does indeed beat the turtle.
Ftilt and dtilt completely outrange and shut out his ground moveset, lol. It's pretty much the entire matchup.
GW can punish you for tech rolling with a regrab, bair, dash attack, and potentially fair (likely the weak hit). To tech the dthrow 100% of the time, turn the volume up on the TV. Hit L/R on the fifth (last) beep of the throw.
Don't fall for the trap of trying to punish his smashes on block unless you powershield or are extremely apt at timing them. They've all got a lot of shieldstun/push with small cooldown times, and GWs will abuse the hell out of you for not being wary of it.
You can shield every hit of GW's bair, then quickly flash your shield (let go of your shield button and then hit it again immediately) to powershield the landing hit of it, allowing many more punishing options. This includes shield drop dsmash.
Don't be an idiot off the edge, or you're getting up B'd into the level.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
This is one thing I have questions for:
How should I recover?
Also, if I get in the air, how do I get back down? Fly to the ledge to reset options?
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Down B allows for a ****ton more options for landing.
SAVE YOUR JUMPS. If GW is doing dumb **** with uair juggles, ignore him and don't waste them. Try to get near the ground with multiple jumps left, and if he tries to run under you to punish a landing, you can hop away or jump + dair him.
Gliding to the edge is alright, but he can kinda **** with that via uair. Not that big of a deal, though. When you're trying to land, don't get near GW and try to challenge him, as he will pretty much always win. Just keep your distance and utilize the plethora of options you have.
Recovering should be easy. Don't use tornado back to the stage, as he can run off uair that for a free punish, or merely drop a key/fsmash/usmash through it. Drill Rush or just jumping to the edge from below (be sure to sweetspot) work fine. Just don't fall for dumb gimmicks.
SAVE YOUR JUMPS. If GW is doing dumb **** with uair juggles, ignore him and don't waste them. Try to get near the ground with multiple jumps left, and if he tries to run under you to punish a landing, you can hop away or jump + dair him.
Gliding to the edge is alright, but he can kinda **** with that via uair. Not that big of a deal, though. When you're trying to land, don't get near GW and try to challenge him, as he will pretty much always win. Just keep your distance and utilize the plethora of options you have.
Recovering should be easy. Don't use tornado back to the stage, as he can run off uair that for a free punish, or merely drop a key/fsmash/usmash through it. Drill Rush or just jumping to the edge from below (be sure to sweetspot) work fine. Just don't fall for dumb gimmicks.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Yup.
For the record, by "don't be an idiot off the edge", I meant actually edgeguarding him. His up B is very safe and high priority, and he's a ***** to deal with offstage. Might as well just let him grab the edge as you sit right next to it spamming moves he can't punish.
For the record, by "don't be an idiot off the edge", I meant actually edgeguarding him. His up B is very safe and high priority, and he's a ***** to deal with offstage. Might as well just let him grab the edge as you sit right next to it spamming moves he can't punish.
If you're good at footstooling, should you use it to meteor smash?
also, i need help with pits uair
IIRC, G&W has a guaranteed Usmash/re-grab/etc. on Meta Knight as long as he predicts and buffers properly.
and help with peach dair ._.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Fsmash is safe from a certain distance. He can hop up and smack you with a fair if you're not careful about letting it go. Fortunately, since the charge release and ending lag on fsmash are awesomely low, you can let go of your fsmash and shield his fair on reaction if you're quick.
Pit's uair is ridiculous, it's hard to consistently beat it from above with dair. If you're not offstage, just tornado him or move to the side. Peach's dair sucks, run under her and up smash, up B from just in front of her, tornado into her horizontally, up tilt her as she falls on you, etc.
Pit's uair is ridiculous, it's hard to consistently beat it from above with dair. If you're not offstage, just tornado him or move to the side. Peach's dair sucks, run under her and up smash, up B from just in front of her, tornado into her horizontally, up tilt her as she falls on you, etc.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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- Feb 8, 2008
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- 7,048
but MK doesn't have a spike..
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Oh, about the footstooling thing, no. Most characters have a viable answer to footstooling that prevents it from being a reliable option to gimp people. Some characters though, such as DK, Marth, and Snake, do not have safe options to cover their heads while recovering from certain positions that leaves them open to footstooling.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
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Meta Knight's Utilt beats his dair if you space it right.
SL can also beat it but the spacing is so crucial and you'll probably just trade hits iirc. I just wouldn't try to beat it.
Jem.
Smash Master
The title says we're discussing Wario, so I'll just go along with it.
At MLG I played Malcolm, Hunger, and Judge's Wario. The best thing to do is just space fairs and dtilts. There is pretty much nothing he can do if you're perfectly spacing them. He'll be scared and just shield, which will leads to grabs. (dthrow-nado, whatever you prefer) Anytime they're above you trying to get back just from directly above, bait the air dodge and nado. Or if you see it coming, nair if its kill percents. I think the Waft is the most dynamic part of the matchup. You can have a 40-60% lead, but if you get hit by the waft, you either got killed or took a lot of percent. So if you dodge all the wafts (particularly 2 in a standard 4-5 minute match, maybe 3) then you'll have a chance. Can't force the kill move on wario, gotta hit with a good downsmash at the right time. Or a good airdodge read with Nair. not just looking for it, have to feel it. Don't nado from the ledge into Wario, just jump over him or poke his shield with fairs/uairs from the ledge to get some room.
At MLG I played Malcolm, Hunger, and Judge's Wario. The best thing to do is just space fairs and dtilts. There is pretty much nothing he can do if you're perfectly spacing them. He'll be scared and just shield, which will leads to grabs. (dthrow-nado, whatever you prefer) Anytime they're above you trying to get back just from directly above, bait the air dodge and nado. Or if you see it coming, nair if its kill percents. I think the Waft is the most dynamic part of the matchup. You can have a 40-60% lead, but if you get hit by the waft, you either got killed or took a lot of percent. So if you dodge all the wafts (particularly 2 in a standard 4-5 minute match, maybe 3) then you'll have a chance. Can't force the kill move on wario, gotta hit with a good downsmash at the right time. Or a good airdodge read with Nair. not just looking for it, have to feel it. Don't nado from the ledge into Wario, just jump over him or poke his shield with fairs/uairs from the ledge to get some room.
dextasmurf
Smash Lord
just nado wen he up aires...unless he perfectly spaces it he will get sucked in...oR ujust up B it
clowsui
Smash Legend
walk around space forward tilt on the ground. ftilt hit one to bait reaction is the best
tornado when he jumps
if he gets a little more creative at the short hop level randomly dash attack and forward roll as cross ups
ledge trap him by charging fsmashes, down tilting at max range and being prepared to use aerials
bait out early up Bs when edgeguarding him (which is the smartest tactic from marth if he's in a horrible position), shuttle loop when he's in free fall, don't be afraid to take hits...when you're not close to and below the lip of the stage
if you tornado him:
shielding - hit the shield w/ early part of tornado and run away, his dash is good enough where he can punish it at various distances. if his shield is low feel free to stay on it though. if you insist on staying on top of his shield do the autocancel 50/50 nado to piss him off - if he guesses wrong on which side you land he'll either eat damage or reset depending on what YOU choose LOL
not shielding - change the direction you move it in once he's trapped every time you do nado to scare him from trying anything funny
be careful of the grab, he gets a free kill at 55% if he's near the edge, a tech chase at any percent (hard to execute though, dair onstage is frame perfect), free 10-14%...all provided that you're in a position to be grab released. even w/out grab release marth gets momentum from the grab, which is what makes this matchup difficult in the slightest
don't telegraph anything...marth has a really easy time punishing that. ESPECIALLY your recovery. marth has a pseudo-ledge trap on you, provided you have patterned recoveries
watch out for stun jacket the few times it may appear
counterpicks are brinstar, rainbow cruise, NOT norfair (marth is actually pretty good on here), frigate orpheon.
planking works in a pinch
auto canceling nado on top of marth to make him guess which side you're landing on is a bad idea, he can just usmash oos which is the worst possible outcome in terms of damage. otherwise everything clowsui said is solid, and don't glide back to the ledge, marth is pretty effective at edge guarding you if you aren't patient
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Wario gets wrecked by MK ;[
clowsui
Smash Legend
@etecoon:
i forgot about usmash oos
then again if you mix it up enough the marth will have a hard time expecting the 50/50, there's always the option of moving the tornado near the end of its duration etc. the 50/50 range is large enough to do that iirc
yeah gliding is not a good idea, i forgot about that...marth's bair destroys gliding especially if you're moving forward lol, if you're not prepared your DI will suck massive weiners
i forgot about usmash oos
then again if you mix it up enough the marth will have a hard time expecting the 50/50, there's always the option of moving the tornado near the end of its duration etc. the 50/50 range is large enough to do that iirc
yeah gliding is not a good idea, i forgot about that...marth's bair destroys gliding especially if you're moving forward lol, if you're not prepared your DI will suck massive weiners
KassandraNova
Smash Master
not by the patient warios :X
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Yes, he does.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
nair oos > wario
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Wario matchup is easy. Fairs, dtilts, tornados, a few ftilts and shuttle loops. If you think he's gonna air dodge at you or you get him offstage, lace 'em up, baby.
clowsui
Smash Legend
nair jordans: all day
TheLastCacely
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
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So i can get to stompin in my nair force ones.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
mk boards do me proud
<3
<3
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
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