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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
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Toronto Joe
Smash Master
nair solves all my problems
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
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- 7,048
Can you be more specific
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
*points to title*
It must be his shoes!
It must be his shoes!
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
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- 7,048
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
*points to title*
It must be his shoes!
^^dude knows
Virtual Kruncher
Smash Journeyman
Fixed. .*points to title*
It must be his shoes!
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
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- 7,048
lold .
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Oh my god thank you SO much for that fix, been looking to do that for a while. *saves*
IIIIRICK
Smash Journeyman
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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So guys....
I am Seth
Smash Lord
walk up and shield the ****.
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
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- 3DS FC
- 0559-7294-8323
How high are you dair camping him? One mistake I see MK's do when camping Falco is to camp just below his short hop height. That's just asking to eat a bair (or reflector? whomever you are playing, tell them that bair would probably work better. though reflector can be a decent mix up. I digress). This happens because people are trying to nail him out of his short hop double laser (i assume) and when they get to close he full hops as the mk jumps. That lines him up for bair, or maybe even uair.
I like to camp at about 3/4 full hop height. That way, if he makes an advance, you have enough time to read and dair at the proper time. Try not to dair at exact intervals or exact heights. Be sure to retreat after exhausting your jumps. Landing in front of Falco when they see it coming is no good.
Counterpick stages with platforms because they will be nice to land on after you use your dairs. Though personally, I think battlefield opens up more recovery options (for Falco) than advantages (for MK). I'd rather take him to Final Destination (where you can convert his recovery attempts into a tornado or a gimp, imo).
Anyways, if you need more info, feel free to ask. Falco is my best match up :-).
-Tuen
Please specify how you're Dair camping him (the spacing/stage
In general though, air dodge through his reflector and then punish it with pretty much any move other than Fsmash. This is especially good for a sweet spotted aerial Up-B. If he's around 60%+ and it's fresh, it will probably be Falco's stock since he'll probably DI down.
KassandraNova
Smash Master
This thread title has been about the Diddy Match up for sooo long. We should move on to other characters. Like Wario or Falco please. X_x Mostly Wario.
**** Wario. =__=;;
**** Wario. =__=;;
What is the spacing that you are using? Are you hitting his shield, are you flying to the top corner of the screen and Dair camping there, etc. Also, what stages were you on?
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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I'm on SV, and I try to approach like that kind of, but he either side Bs away or jumps and does reflector. What are my options?
KassandraNova
Smash Master
Hm. But if you Dair camp Wario he can uair you...Wario's also seem to uair whenever I miss my shuttle loop. x_x
I can just never punish him for rolling or anything. He just airdodges through my ****. And grabs me all the time. Not to mention his stupid fart which kills me at 80.
I can just never punish him for rolling or anything. He just airdodges through my ****. And grabs me all the time. Not to mention his stupid fart which kills me at 80.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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Where did I ever say to Dair camp Wario? That doesn't work lol unless the wario doesn't know what to do
FFFair him when he jumps to reflector you (or AD like I suggested earlier) and B if he tries to Side-B. If you space it properly, B should dip low enough to catch Falco and will pop him up above the tornado. From there you should move to the left/right and act by reaction. If Falco jumps or Side-Bs, cancel B. If he ADs, Fairs, Uairs, Bairs, Dairs or -- his best aerial option in this case -- Nairs, move back and catch him. One thing that I've been looking into is Down-Bing toward where he's going with Side-B so that he feels pressured.
SV's platform is a good way to pressure his shield by using it as a canceling place for a Dair camping mix-up; FFDair into the platform (the proper timing is somewhat tricky; you want to hit the platform on frame five) when it's moving away from Falco essentially sacrifices the vertical movement for considerably faster horizontal movement and removes three frames that Falco is able to punish you. Make sure that you space it out of Falco's Usmash range, as that removes his fastest option (eight frames) and lowers it to two options: Bair (eleven frames but better damage and more range behind him) and Nair (ten frames but less range and damage). The generic "space tilts and Fair" work well at shutting Falco down after Dthrow bonus percents. Keep an eye out for the inevitable roll and/or run-and-shield that Falco will make if you tilt at him.
If he's air dodging through you and then grabbing you then you're either not spacing properly or you have the advantage and aren't taking it. The same goes for if he's consistently rolling past you and you aren't punishing him for it. If you have video(s) to look at, it would be easier to tell what is wrong.
KassandraNova
Smash Master
@ Kaf: Ha. I saw your post where you said to dair camp falco, and I confused that with Wario somehow. Whoopsie!
@xDeath: I could probably get a video of me vs wario sometime soon. That would probably help if you saw what I try to do. @_@
@xDeath: I could probably get a video of me vs wario sometime soon. That would probably help if you saw what I try to do. @_@
Dair camping does work against Wario, you have to be fast though. The main problem is that people do the dair camping over and over, at the same height, at the same pattern. GANONDORF can punish you for that lol.
Kel
Smash Master
DMG could you make a video or something showing what MK is supposed to do to shut down Wah?
Sure. There are 5 main moves. That's it.
Dtilt
Dsmash
Upb
Fair
Uair
In tandem, these moves collectively negate Wario completely. Anything else is extra. Uair is minor, maybe you will need to use it some for when he tries to go over you and Dair. But for the most part, you out position and out range him to where even realistically he should not get through.
Dsmash and Dtilt easily stuff out Wario's options from a neutral perspective. Fair is pretty obvious, Uair is a bit trickier but doesn't take long to figure out, Upb is probably underrated against him in that it has great utility for making him have to fear going above you further than your Uair reaches.
Dtilt
Dsmash
Upb
Fair
Uair
In tandem, these moves collectively negate Wario completely. Anything else is extra. Uair is minor, maybe you will need to use it some for when he tries to go over you and Dair. But for the most part, you out position and out range him to where even realistically he should not get through.
Dsmash and Dtilt easily stuff out Wario's options from a neutral perspective. Fair is pretty obvious, Uair is a bit trickier but doesn't take long to figure out, Upb is probably underrated against him in that it has great utility for making him have to fear going above you further than your Uair reaches.
Jem.
Smash Master
You aren't dair camping high enough if his reflector is hitting you. It's such a laggy move even if you timed it wrong, you should punish him since it's such a laggy move.
If its a tournament set, Strike to the least neutral stage since its MK vs Falco. (Typically will end up on Lylat/PS1/Smashville in my experience, but I'll even let it go to Battlefield because even though its falcos best stage, MK is strong there too.)
Don't stay on the ground vs Falco when you're at low percents. You just gotta play gay. They'll probably try to nair you and tack some damage on if you time it wrong. If you're suspecting it, you can shield up b and lead it into a short something.
If you find yourself past chain grab percent, you can now sit on the ground if you want to. approach with power shields. If you get too close, they'll likely over b. If you try to just shield and dash grab, they'll spot dodge. Either dash into shield grab (just incase, the shield stops you while they're spot dodging) you can walk forward tilt.
You can also tornado falco from above after the higher laser hits.
when edgeguarding, either tornado or reverse up b so when he lands on the stage you can glide attack him. (good way to kill.) charging fsmash is too risky and usually doesnt hit.
if you're camping on a platform above him and shield, don't fall for the nair into laser lock. just shield up b or get out of the tumbling animation quickly with a jump or something.
hope that helps, ill elaborate more if you need to.
KassandraNova
Smash Master
I always forget about how high Falco can jump. As mk I'll be heading back to the stage and falco will be all up in my face. >:[
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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That actually helped a lot. Thanks a lot, Jem, I'll get back to you if I need anymore help.
Jem.
Smash Master
You're welcome, and I'm glad it helped.
And to clarify for others, I said Battlefield is Falco's best stage. I'm just assuming everyone bans FD vs falco, so i meant best stage he can go to.
KassandraNova
Smash Master
I'll make note of that, and try to remember it next time I'm stage striking against a falco. ^_^
Kel
Smash Master
See, different people tell me different things. For example, Malcolm suggests that I Nair when the Wario tries to air dodge through me or something of the sort, while others tell me Uair is the pivotal move for MK in the MU. Malcolm also tells me to Tornado if Wario has already used his second jump.
Whenever I Dsmash, the Wario always dairs me.
If I Fair, the Wario can power shield it/and or air dodge through me and grab me. Are you talking about full hoped Fair?
Dtilt, I've noticed can prevent wario from grabbing you, but thats only if you're already close to him (which rarely happens)
Up B, I agree is amazing, however, if you miss or miss time it against an air dodge, MK takes 17 damage/ dies.
Man, I've had so much trouble with this MU. I thought I had it figured out after I 3-1'd Krystedez last Saturday, but then he came back and beat me in two sets in grand finals. I did trip an exorbitant amount (at least 20 times in grand finals), but I still have no idea what I'm doing wrong because I try what people tell me and I guess there's just something I'm missing. Blue Rogue always times me out, and then Overswarm will 3-0 Blue after not playing for 2 months directly after Blue beats me =\.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
If wario approaches you frome above, use uair -> ff air dodge. If he approaches you by SHing, don't fair, nair. Nair hits him out of his air dodge (lag frames). Wario only beats MK because he can bait MK. If wario uses his DJ, you could nado him, but I can imagine the Wario DJing on purpose to bait nado for a waft. You could try using upb to hit him for an edge guard.
Also, never ever try to hit his shield, his OOS game is way too good. Warios have a tendency to shield after they land behind you with an aerial, drop you shield -> turnaround grab.
If you got more questions etc. ask 'em blabla.
There's conflicting info for different reasons. I'll touch up on some stuff here:
1. Tornado IS good against Wario. I HATE when people say Tornado is bad because Wario can Dair through it. I have had Tornado beat Dair more than I beat out Tornado. Tornado against Wario on the ground is retardedly safe, in that he has nothing that beats it if you rise the tornado correctly. No Fsmash or Ftilt, they lose. If you hit his shield, and retreat it, he can't punish you aside from DACUS, and I shouldn't have to explain to you why DACUS with Wario is loltastic as a punishing option (SDI out and punish Wario, you take less than 7 damage and he takes more).
Dtilt is extremely safe against Wario in nearly any situation. Nair is a mixed bag, it's good only in certain instances. You should not use Nair unless you are trying to hit Wario airdodging into you from higher up and you are also falling with him/keeping up with him, or if you are on the ground and he airdodges into you quickly and you SH Nair. I don't like FH Nair, if Wario is on the ground MK has NO reason to try and FH most of the time. SH Aerial > FH Aerials against Wario, because the higher you are in the air the greater risk you run of Wario being able to get under you and try to trap you.
TKD is correct in his assessment on MK dominating Wario. It's not a fun matchup for Wario, easily his worst matchup. 65:35 ish.
Elaborating more on Tornado:
Dair only beats it at certain points in the animation, and only if you can have it aimed in the right areas. Aiming at the center isn't always the best option.
1. Tornado IS good against Wario. I HATE when people say Tornado is bad because Wario can Dair through it. I have had Tornado beat Dair more than I beat out Tornado. Tornado against Wario on the ground is retardedly safe, in that he has nothing that beats it if you rise the tornado correctly. No Fsmash or Ftilt, they lose. If you hit his shield, and retreat it, he can't punish you aside from DACUS, and I shouldn't have to explain to you why DACUS with Wario is loltastic as a punishing option (SDI out and punish Wario, you take less than 7 damage and he takes more).
Dtilt is extremely safe against Wario in nearly any situation. Nair is a mixed bag, it's good only in certain instances. You should not use Nair unless you are trying to hit Wario airdodging into you from higher up and you are also falling with him/keeping up with him, or if you are on the ground and he airdodges into you quickly and you SH Nair. I don't like FH Nair, if Wario is on the ground MK has NO reason to try and FH most of the time. SH Aerial > FH Aerials against Wario, because the higher you are in the air the greater risk you run of Wario being able to get under you and try to trap you.
TKD is correct in his assessment on MK dominating Wario. It's not a fun matchup for Wario, easily his worst matchup. 65:35 ish.
Elaborating more on Tornado:
Dair only beats it at certain points in the animation, and only if you can have it aimed in the right areas. Aiming at the center isn't always the best option.
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