Player-4
See you in 25 years
Ilyg2
Btw, don't forget you can shield and punish Snake's 3rd hit of jab if he happens to use it.
Btw, don't forget you can shield and punish Snake's 3rd hit of jab if he happens to use it.
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Meta Knight's New Matchup Discussion Thread: Snake *Complete*
- Thread starter demonictoonlink
- Start date
theunabletable
Smash Lord
That’s impossible after a Dthrow, as you’d be touching the ground. To SDI something into the ground, you have to be in the air at the time of the hit. Since after the Dthrow you’re on the ground, Snake’s Ftilt would hit while you’re on the ground and wouldn’t be techable.
And, anyways, I’m trying to think of more realistic things to do with SDI, stuff that only takes one or two inputs at the most.
I think I could seriously SDI the first hit of Ftilt behind him, if I predict it, but I doubt that I could SDI the jab behind him, I think I could only SDI it far enough away to avoid the grab. So I guess if you predict his action, you might be able to punish what he does after a Dthrow.
I've teched his Ftilt doing that before. It's possible that I accidentally jumped and didn't realize it, but that's unlikely. Also, the jab is very predictable since it will usually be buffered (which means that it has a set timing). The only problem is that a grab is virtually guaranteed if you miss the SDI, because even the pop-up jab would then put MK directly in grab range. There's also the simply route of DIing down and shielding a follow-up jab/Ftilt or spot-dodging/forward rolling passed the grab.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
You must have jumped or been in the air from something; because you CAN'T tech someting with SDI if you're hit while on the ground. You can't SDI down while you're already on the ground. You can SDI stuff like Snake's Ftilt and tech it if you're already in the air when you're hit, but if you're on the ground when hit, it's impossible.
Are you sure that you can DI his jab down, then spotdodge a buffered jab cancel > grab? That’s a lot more simple than SDI, so it’d be great if it works lol.
IIRC, Snake has a guaranteed Jab 2 if he buffers it (not counting the pop-up Jab) and MK has 5 frames to do something before Snake's Ftilt comes out of non-pop-up Jab 1 (which is pretty much Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dsmash, although Up-B's invincibility frames start before Ftilt as well).
This is out of hit stun, not shield stun.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Player-4
See you in 25 years
Lol but Snake wants to be. I don't mean MK has to be on the ground, but that's where most of the fighting takes place.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I don't know what Orion is saying by quoting me.
Player-4
See you in 25 years
I already took care of it, no need to turn this into an argument/flame war.
I was describing orions playstyle.
You're incorrect in either case.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Latias is a troll.
But you also accidentally made it so I was the one being quoted. Lol
I barely play gay. I only run the timer if they're running the timer on me.
But you also accidentally made it so I was the one being quoted. Lol
I barely play gay. I only run the timer if they're running the timer on me.
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
Play M2k then let me know about it.
Bloodcross
Smash Champion
/discussion
Stage 1: Get Snake's damage above 30% to compensate for the incoming damage from Snake's tilts/you slipping and getting hit by X explosions.
Plan: There are a few good ways to get his damage up. Let's discuss some!
Uair chains are nice, right? Meh. I rarely land these on Snake from 0.
You can always do a Dthrow -> Tornado or something, right? Maybe!
My favorite method: Glide attack -> Tornado. I just about get this on Snakes at least once per match. It'll get their percent above 30, and to be totally honest they don't see it coming. Your tornado is guaranteed after a glide attack at 0. It's just free damage.
Stage 2: Don't get ***** by his explosions.
Plan: Dammit, don't freaking approach Snake with a tornado! You're just asking to get exploded.
Keep moving. Not necessarily towards him.
Watch out for DACUS. Don't give him the chance to actually hit you with his Dash Attack first. You take unnecessary damage.
Snake likes throwing/cooking/stopping-[grenades]-in-midair grenades [at you]. It's usually not in your best interest to pick up his grenades, as he can make you drop it by shield-dropping another grenade.
Don't attack his shield without a plan. If you get grabbed, mash and try to get out. Otherwise watch out for Fthrow/Bthrow into his mines on the ground or into a C4 or something. Also watch out for Dthrow. What you do from getting Dthrown is up to you - it depends on the Snake and what conditioning has already been done in the match. Just generally don't stay still, especially if you're at high %. Utilt will smack you. Stay above his shield. Snake's best option for hitting opponents above him out of shield is Nair, so you only can to watch out for that. (If you get hit: if he's going toward you, DI behind him, and vice versa).
Stage 3: Get the damage up.
Plan: Dair camping above him like described above, SHFairs, throws (I prefer Dthrow - depending on DI you can combo out of it), etc. Do whatever you can to damage him, but safety first! It is NOT worth taking damage from Snake to MAYBE get a combo on him.
Stage 4: Kill.
Plan:
3 methods.
1: Superknight kill - Tornado off the top. Weakness: grenades (grenade might kill you), Bair through the tornado. How to: Uair chain or catch him out of a high Cypher.
2: Standard kill - Get a Dsmash or Fsmash on him from the stage. Meh. You'll have to do some prediction to actually get a legitimate kill from the stage. If you manage to get this kill, he's probably at really high percent, in which case Uthrow from a high platform might work anyways. Side note: drop Bair (hit with first 2 swipes) -> Dsmash works [not just on Snake. :D].
3: Off stage kill - Snake's worst nightmare. UpB him out of Cypher (his cypher will hit you out of falling animation). Dair him out of Cypher. Nair him out of Cypher.
I find Dair to be a very safe option if he's at mid-low height. The trajectory is perfect for this kind of kill, although it's likely that you'll be required to follow with one or two more Dairs.
Some Snakes will airdodge out of their Cypher when they're a little bit above the ledge, in which case you can predict and drop into a jump -> Nair.
Make sure you KNOW that Snake won't airdodge out of his UpB if you're going to attempt the Shuttle Loop kill. If you miss, you'll probably die. You know he won't airdodge out of it if he can't reach the edge simply by falling towards it/using C4s (although C4-usage isn't too likely after an airdodge).
You can grab Snake at the edge and he'll fall after the grab-break from Cypher hitting you and he'll die. Yay.
Stage 5: Post-kill.
Plan: Don't be stupid and let a stray C4 kill you.
Kthx.
This was kind of a stream of consciousness at 3AM, yay!
Anyways. That's how I play against Snake.
OH YEAH I FORGOT.
STAGE CHOICE:
Smashville is never a bad choice. The platform gives you a big advantage with off-stage kills - it may help him recover, but not as much as it will help you kill him. You can attack from from under the platform, too.
Battlefield isn't that bad. I feel like it can go either way here. Snake can easily set up his explosions here, but you can use platforms as shields against grenades, and when he's above you, you're in a really good position. If he tries shielding, you simply need to SHDoubleUair or Uair -> JumpAirdodge behind his shield and get a grab. Basically you're in a good position. If he's on the edge of a platform and he's shielding, you can Uair him from below, which will push him off and into a falling animation, then Nair him or something. Watch out for getting Nair'd if you're above him.
Final Destination... you probably want to stay away. You can some nice combos here, without platforms to save Snake (which actually helps you more than it helps him - what combos does Snake have with platforms besides Nair-ing through them?). Then again, lots of space for Snake to run around and throw splosion-balls at you.
Yoshi's Island is a good choice if you like the stage. Big platform makes it hard for Snake to get you from above - he'll rely a lot on tilts and jabs here. Low kill zone at the bottom makes it hard for him to recover, and the small kill zones on the side are advantageous for you because your UpB can kill him hella early.
Halberd is bad. Part 1: Small ceiling = easily killed by Utilt. Deep kill zone on the bottom = lots of room for Snake to recover with UpB's and Cyphers. Diagonals allow Snake to launch his grenades at a 45ish degree angle. Then he can stop it and drop right on you. Baaad. Part 2: Kinda like FD. The platform will help you kinda, but meh. Stage spikes on the side with his Bair, Utilt kills through platform, grenades all over the place, stage hazards... Basically it's a big mess.
My Metaknight stage of choice is Brinstar. It's small. Not much space for Snake to move around. Live it, kill Snakes, love it. Combo Snake out of lava, footstool him into it. I like breaking the stage in the middle. If you need to camp you can get behind the little pillar thing on the side (easy way: roll behind it) and you'll be free from getting hit by grenades. As long as they aren't cooked, you're fine. If he throws it at you and you're in blasting range, you're less than half a second a way from grabbing the ledge and invincibility frames.
Rainbow Cruise is pretty good too. You can be all over the stage and he can't do that much. He'll probably hang low on the rising part, and when you go right before falling back to the ship, low ceiling = easy Utilt kills, so watch out for that. Otherwise you have the advantage there.
K done.
Plan: There are a few good ways to get his damage up. Let's discuss some!
Uair chains are nice, right? Meh. I rarely land these on Snake from 0.
You can always do a Dthrow -> Tornado or something, right? Maybe!
My favorite method: Glide attack -> Tornado. I just about get this on Snakes at least once per match. It'll get their percent above 30, and to be totally honest they don't see it coming. Your tornado is guaranteed after a glide attack at 0. It's just free damage.
Stage 2: Don't get ***** by his explosions.
Plan: Dammit, don't freaking approach Snake with a tornado! You're just asking to get exploded.
Keep moving. Not necessarily towards him.
Watch out for DACUS. Don't give him the chance to actually hit you with his Dash Attack first. You take unnecessary damage.
Snake likes throwing/cooking/stopping-[grenades]-in-midair grenades [at you]. It's usually not in your best interest to pick up his grenades, as he can make you drop it by shield-dropping another grenade.
Don't attack his shield without a plan. If you get grabbed, mash and try to get out. Otherwise watch out for Fthrow/Bthrow into his mines on the ground or into a C4 or something. Also watch out for Dthrow. What you do from getting Dthrown is up to you - it depends on the Snake and what conditioning has already been done in the match. Just generally don't stay still, especially if you're at high %. Utilt will smack you. Stay above his shield. Snake's best option for hitting opponents above him out of shield is Nair, so you only can to watch out for that. (If you get hit: if he's going toward you, DI behind him, and vice versa).
Stage 3: Get the damage up.
Plan: Dair camping above him like described above, SHFairs, throws (I prefer Dthrow - depending on DI you can combo out of it), etc. Do whatever you can to damage him, but safety first! It is NOT worth taking damage from Snake to MAYBE get a combo on him.
Stage 4: Kill.
Plan:
3 methods.
1: Superknight kill - Tornado off the top. Weakness: grenades (grenade might kill you), Bair through the tornado. How to: Uair chain or catch him out of a high Cypher.
2: Standard kill - Get a Dsmash or Fsmash on him from the stage. Meh. You'll have to do some prediction to actually get a legitimate kill from the stage. If you manage to get this kill, he's probably at really high percent, in which case Uthrow from a high platform might work anyways. Side note: drop Bair (hit with first 2 swipes) -> Dsmash works [not just on Snake. :D].
3: Off stage kill - Snake's worst nightmare. UpB him out of Cypher (his cypher will hit you out of falling animation). Dair him out of Cypher. Nair him out of Cypher.
I find Dair to be a very safe option if he's at mid-low height. The trajectory is perfect for this kind of kill, although it's likely that you'll be required to follow with one or two more Dairs.
Some Snakes will airdodge out of their Cypher when they're a little bit above the ledge, in which case you can predict and drop into a jump -> Nair.
Make sure you KNOW that Snake won't airdodge out of his UpB if you're going to attempt the Shuttle Loop kill. If you miss, you'll probably die. You know he won't airdodge out of it if he can't reach the edge simply by falling towards it/using C4s (although C4-usage isn't too likely after an airdodge).
You can grab Snake at the edge and he'll fall after the grab-break from Cypher hitting you and he'll die. Yay.
Stage 5: Post-kill.
Plan: Don't be stupid and let a stray C4 kill you.
Kthx.
This was kind of a stream of consciousness at 3AM, yay!
Anyways. That's how I play against Snake.
OH YEAH I FORGOT.
STAGE CHOICE:
Smashville is never a bad choice. The platform gives you a big advantage with off-stage kills - it may help him recover, but not as much as it will help you kill him. You can attack from from under the platform, too.
Battlefield isn't that bad. I feel like it can go either way here. Snake can easily set up his explosions here, but you can use platforms as shields against grenades, and when he's above you, you're in a really good position. If he tries shielding, you simply need to SHDoubleUair or Uair -> JumpAirdodge behind his shield and get a grab. Basically you're in a good position. If he's on the edge of a platform and he's shielding, you can Uair him from below, which will push him off and into a falling animation, then Nair him or something. Watch out for getting Nair'd if you're above him.
Final Destination... you probably want to stay away. You can some nice combos here, without platforms to save Snake (which actually helps you more than it helps him - what combos does Snake have with platforms besides Nair-ing through them?). Then again, lots of space for Snake to run around and throw splosion-balls at you.
Yoshi's Island is a good choice if you like the stage. Big platform makes it hard for Snake to get you from above - he'll rely a lot on tilts and jabs here. Low kill zone at the bottom makes it hard for him to recover, and the small kill zones on the side are advantageous for you because your UpB can kill him hella early.
Halberd is bad. Part 1: Small ceiling = easily killed by Utilt. Deep kill zone on the bottom = lots of room for Snake to recover with UpB's and Cyphers. Diagonals allow Snake to launch his grenades at a 45ish degree angle. Then he can stop it and drop right on you. Baaad. Part 2: Kinda like FD. The platform will help you kinda, but meh. Stage spikes on the side with his Bair, Utilt kills through platform, grenades all over the place, stage hazards... Basically it's a big mess.
My Metaknight stage of choice is Brinstar. It's small. Not much space for Snake to move around. Live it, kill Snakes, love it. Combo Snake out of lava, footstool him into it. I like breaking the stage in the middle. If you need to camp you can get behind the little pillar thing on the side (easy way: roll behind it) and you'll be free from getting hit by grenades. As long as they aren't cooked, you're fine. If he throws it at you and you're in blasting range, you're less than half a second a way from grabbing the ledge and invincibility frames.
Rainbow Cruise is pretty good too. You can be all over the stage and he can't do that much. He'll probably hang low on the rising part, and when you go right before falling back to the ship, low ceiling = easy Utilt kills, so watch out for that. Otherwise you have the advantage there.
K done.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I've seen all the videos and they never consist of true gimps.
Alright, matchup ratio time!
I would appreciate if people from here on would tell me the ratio they believe it is.
I'll start: 50-50
Alright, matchup ratio time!
I would appreciate if people from here on would tell me the ratio they believe it is.
I'll start: 50-50
Player-4
See you in 25 years
I'm going with 55-45 MKs favor
ぱみゅ
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Pretty even.
55:45 because of the timeout real possibility
55:45 because of the timeout real possibility
Virtual Kruncher
Smash Journeyman
I would say it's 55:45.
59:41 Metaknight, for sure.
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
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Yes, CPing is a bonus for MK. But Snake is still a hard thread.
I'd say that under normal conditions, 55:45. CPing can be up to 60:40. Can't get worse than that.
I'd say that under normal conditions, 55:45. CPing can be up to 60:40. Can't get worse than that.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
I'd say it depends on the ruleset. With a really conservative stagelist, imo it's 50:50, but with a liberal ruleset (like what MLG has) more like 55:45-possibly even 60:40 but I really don't think so.
MLG is only better for Meta Knight in Finals. In a three count set, Meta Knight is guaranteed a good stage (Delphino, Brinstar, etc.) and that doesn't change much in MLG. If anything, Snake benefits from MLG more than Meta Knight does because either Pictochat or Halberd are guaranteed.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Except MK doesn't have to start on BF/FD/SV first round, which benifits him a lot.
I'd say having a greater chance of winning the first round (since MK has a looot of gay CPs he can go to) is more influential than Snake having a slightly better CP (I don't know how good Snake is on Pictochat, tbh).
I'd say having a greater chance of winning the first round (since MK has a looot of gay CPs he can go to) is more influential than Snake having a slightly better CP (I don't know how good Snake is on Pictochat, tbh).
You're looking at it in a way that normally is correct, but not in Snake's case. Meta Knight has one major stage (Delfino) in the starters that will virtually always be banned. Snake has four or five stages (Halberd, Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium, Lylat, and -- arguably -- Castle Seige). That leaves Yoshi's Island, Smashville, and Battlefield for him to ban. If you disagree with Castle Seige, I'd accept that, but otherwise the starter is going to be further in Snake's favor than it is now.
As for Pictochat, the high ceiling on the large stage is more than made up by the lack of off-stage play. Also, most of the hazards are better for Snake than they are for MK.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
^Fair enough.
and to avoid spamming in the other thread with the same response, you can just take "Fair enough" as my response to both your post in this thread, and your most recent post in the BF thread
and to avoid spamming in the other thread with the same response, you can just take "Fair enough" as my response to both your post in this thread, and your most recent post in the BF thread
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
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...Even though I'm not pro at this game, I'd say that it's 45-55 in with MK being the 45. It sounds crazy, but at the peak of human potential, I just think that Snake has an advantage over him. Anything less than that, of course, I would give the matchup as a 55-45 or maybe even 60-40 in MK's favor.
Oh and, M2K's matchup against Ally is 50-50
Oh and, M2K's matchup against Ally is 50-50
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
- Joined
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- Messages
- 986
...Even though I'm not pro at this game, I'd say that it's 45-55 in with MK being the 45. It sounds crazy, but at the peak of human potential, I just think that Snake has an advantage over him. Anything less than that, of course, I would give the matchup as a 55-45 or maybe even 60-40 in MK's favor.
Oh and, M2K's matchup against Ally is 50-50
Oh and, M2K's matchup against Ally is 50-50
Mr.-0
Smash Ace
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...Even though I'm not pro at this game, I'd say that it's 45-55 in with MK being the 45. It sounds crazy, but at the peak of human potential, I just think that Snake has an advantage over him. Anything less than that, of course, I would give the matchup as a 55-45 or maybe even 60-40 in MK's favor.
Oh and, M2K's matchup against Ally is 50-50
Oh and, M2K's matchup against Ally is 50-50
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
more like 55-45 atm M2K's favor lol
TheTantalus
Smash Hero
Hai guys
Metaknight destroys snake in damage, but snake can make up for it via low % kills.
55/45 mk's favor.
Metaknight destroys snake in damage, but snake can make up for it via low % kills.
55/45 mk's favor.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
dtilt/ftilt crossups are cool when your pushing him off the edge
im pretty certain this matchup is even and depending on the ruleset could shift towards 55:45
im pretty certain this matchup is even and depending on the ruleset could shift towards 55:45
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Show some respect and I'll consider.
But I have been very busy lately. Don't worry, I'll get it done. If it's the ratio you're waiting for, it's 55-45.
But I have been very busy lately. Don't worry, I'll get it done. If it's the ratio you're waiting for, it's 55-45.