Meta Knight's New Matchup Discussion Thread: Snake *Complete*

[demonictoonlink]

Snake

Oh Meta Knight vs. Snake…The classic brawl matchup. These are pieces of great posts that hopefully give a good understanding of the match up. I'm not exactly sure I'm doing this right

Important aspects of this matchup:

MK doesn't REALLY gimp Snake...He puts him in a terrible position offstage, but a good Snake shouldn't be getting "gimped" per se.

If he nade pulls and doesn't shield drop it and cooks it/runs to you to grab/shield, Dtilt is amazing here. If it hits, he has like no options. And it can really only be punished if he perfect shields it. And Dtilt won't blow it up.

Juggling is really important in this matchup. He’ll probably wavebounce a nade when he’s going in one direction, so be weary of that. Tornado can be helpful when he is in the air, but be careful of his BAir from above if you nado.

Rethrowing his nades back at him is a viable option, but situational. He can shield drop another one and you’re ****ed, so be careful. Learn to instant throw (you should know how to do this for the Diddy matchup, too). But remember, be careful with throwing his nades.
If you get a stock lead (or even a good percent lead maybe) you CAN camp him and possibly time him out.

Mostly everyone already knows this, but in case new MKs read this, when Snake uses his cypher, you can aerial up-B him, and you’ll knock him away, and you’ll hit the cypher and be safe.



Fairing right outside of Snake's ftilt area is good because:
-Beats dash attack
-Catches Snake's who like to walk forward with a grenade (facing away)
-Catches Snake's Ftilt limbs from the correct distance.
The best "kind" of grenade Snake can use on MK is the soft lob, it's annoying, if it touches you it's %2 or so. Believe it or not, lobbing dmg adds up! Especially if you start getting blown up by them. The trajectory limits MK's mobility on the floor, if you run you might get Ftilted and so on.

Snake downthrows in certain stage positions are scary sometimes, during those situations the MK should probably use the options least expected. Even if it's stupid. Here's why:

-A Snake downthrow with the MK facing the edge is practically death, he holds shield and waits for any roll, get up attack etc. You're dead. You might as well try something silly like staying on the floor and wait for his shield to get small enough to poke him with the getup attack. You're dead anyways, might as well take the riskiest route to get out of that kind of situation. You have nothing to lose.
ecently, Snake's have been using upairs and bairs, if you expect them then you'll probably never get hit by them. I honestly think Snake's aerials are amazing, they just require specific knowledge of when and how to use them.

When juggling, take the position that you know if he keeps going you will upair him. If he wave bounces, you can land and run quickly to his landing and punish. It's a presence control of the stage, even if Snake isn't near yet it still serves purpose to punish the possibility of Snake's trajectory.

To be honest, Tornado isn't great vs Snake, there are better options. Everyone expects it anyways, it's only useful vs a landing Snake. But I would personally rather grab any day. Or use it with the Dair bait. Nothing special.

Amazing post by The Unable Table...or whatever his name is now.
[COLLAPSE=Great Post]

I only noticed Ally getting ***** by nado from Ksizzle at pound 4, and then in that Brinstar match at Orlando.

It's a good option in this matchup. Don't just approach with nado, but in some situations it's really really good.

Havok gave me some advice in this matchup a few months ago, actually.

If he nade pulls and doesn't shield drop it and cooks it/runs to you to grab/shield, Dtilt is amazing here. If it hits, he has like no options. And it can really only be punished if he perfect shields it. And Dtilt won't blow it up.

And simply walking up is a good approach. I mean don't do it blindly, but walking up and tilting him works surprisingly well.

Dair camping can kinda work.

His nade pull has endlag, so you can punish him for pulling a nade if you're close (won't happen much, but still).

Make sure you learn the timing for the omnigay. It's reaaaaaaaaaally situational, but it happens, and when the opportunity comes up it's good to get a free stock.

One thing I’ve noticed recently that’s a really good mixup is if you land a dash grab right at the ledge, do an Fthrow immediately, then jump and nair at them. They have like no options if they don’t DI it right (and since buffering an Fthrow is faster than human reaction, it can happen).

If the nair hits them, they’re further off stage and in a bad position, if they air dodge it they’re below the stage, which is a REALLY bad position.

I mean if they DI away from you I think they might be fine, but it’s still a good mixup to think about.

FD isn’t reaaally bad. I’d rather go to FD than Halberd, anyways. For CPs, Brinstar is incredible. Just watch Ally vs M2K from Orlando and you’ll see why. But it’ll probably get banned by the Snake (or if you’re in a really stupid region, or have a stupid TO, it might be banned anyways). So RC is probably your best bet if they ban Brinstar. Delfino is good too.

DON’T dash attack him. The risk just isn’t worth the possible reward most of the time, and if you can punish him with it, a grab would be better anyways.

Make sure you can jab lock with your Dtilt consistently, every once in a long while a Snake might DI your Dthrow away and not tech/AD. The huge punish helps against Snake. It’s not hard to Dtilt lock, just practice it for a few minutes in training and you’ll have it down forever. It’s a really situational, but amazing when the situation comes up, trick that applies to every matchup.

Whatever the **** you do, don’t get grabbed. His Dthrow tech chase game is stupid.

Juggling is really important in this matchup. He’ll probably wavebounce a nade when he’s going in one direction, so be weary of that. Tornado can be helpful when he is in the air, but be careful of his BAir from above if you nado.

Tilts are good in this matchup. Your tilts are more disjointed than his, and they’re faster.

If you’re on the ledge/planking, watch the **** out for his C4. It has a CRAPTON of range and can hit you while you’re planking. (I didn’t know it could hit me while planking until it actually happened to me lol. So might as well mention it and hopefully save some new MK player from getting punished by C4 for playing gay )

Rethrowing his nades back at him is a viable option, but situational. He can shield drop another one and you’re ****ed, so be careful. Learn to instant throw (you should know how to do this for the Diddy matchup, too). But remember, be careful with throwing his nades.

Learn to SDI his nair and dair. Again situational, but dair OoS is dumb if you don’t SDI it. You’ll die stupidly early.

Don’t approach with nado or you’ll get *****, especially if you’re at high percents.

Don’t play TOO scared around his nades. Walking up is a surprisingly good option because his nades aren’t really dangerous for 3 seconds. You still have to be smart around them, but don’t be too scared to walk past a nade that’s only been on the ground for a second.

If you get a stock lead (or even a good percent lead maybe) you CAN camp him and possibly time him out.

If you’re gimping him, watch out for his forward air. They rarely use it, but it CAN hit since you rarely ever expect it. Just a little dumb mixup that Snake can do that you need to watch out for.

Mostly everyone already knows this, but in case new MKs read this, when Snake uses his cypher, you can aerial up-B him, and you’ll knock him away, and you’ll hit the cypher and be safe.

And if he cyphers near the stage, if you grab him and air release without pummeling, he can’t up B or jump again (but he can C4, unless you get hit by his cypher during the grab and auto-ground release him).

Learn the spacing of nado so that if he grenade pulls, you hit him without hitting the grenade.

I’d say that the ratio is probably around 55:45, maybe better or worse depending on the ruleset. With MLG rules it’s definitely in the 55:45-60:40 range, but with a really conservative ruleset, it’s probably closer to 50:50.

So, basically, tilts can be good, don’t get grabbed, gimp him, juggle him, make sure not to get punished (as in don’t throw out really risky stuff, he punishes you stupidly hard), don’t be too scared of nades, punish him hard whenever you have the chance, and tornado is good but don't be dumb with it. Watch Ksizzle vs Ally from Pound 4 and M2K vs Ally from Orlando on Brinstar to see generally good usage of nado. But, really, just read the whole post

[/COLLAPSE]

Another great post by Havok

[COLLAPSE=Havok's Post]

The MK should adjust to whatever the Snake does.

Fairing right outside of Snake's ftilt area is good because:
-Beats dash attack
-Catches Snake's who like to walk forward with a grenade (facing away)
-Catches Snake's Ftilt limbs from the correct distance.

^ Table is right about the Dtilt, spacing it when Snake tries to control the matchup with grenades is gold! Loses to dash attack and Ftilt though.

Personally, I like to rack up dmg as quickly as I can with Nairs, grabs (which puts him in the air for) and Upairs. A good Snake will never get shuttle looped to death, it's almost obsolete unless the Snake makes a mistake and is placed outside of the stage at an early percent.

I save the Downsmash to kill around %150-160, It sounds like alot and a bit absurd but it's not because:

-You have psychological advantage because of (hopefully) percent lead.
- At high percents Snake's will usually be in the air because they take so long to recover from everything so they will usually either...
A. Grenade "land" - Which you can Dsmash the FEET
B. Aerial - Shield, dsmash
C. Airdodge - Regrab or Dsmash

Someone probably already mentioned this, Snake's who leave grenades on the floor = Shuttle loop from the floor and use the invincibility frames to blow them up.

Grabs are HUGE to gain/build momentum, a pummel + Down throw = about %14. It's not hard to grab Snake! Just don't try to when he has a solid footing on the ground, it usually happens when he lands.

Buffer dash attack landings is nice when you read airdodges.

Personally I do not like, Dair camping. It doesn't accomplish much, both players don't get hit, however, it gives MK a bait (wait for uptilt - tornado). That's it! I would rather stay grounded and look for opportunities etc etc.

Offstage, a fresh Dair knocks Snake off his cypher, the rest after that do not. Be creative, Dair, Nair, Nair, wait, shuttle. Dead. A good Snake won't die from something like this, they'll probably take the c4 recovery route forcing the MK to get back to the stage. In this scenario, simply keep the Snake offstage for more dmg (which is why racking up dmg is very easy) or try to footstool his C4 recovery.

The best "kind" of grenade Snake can use on MK is the soft lob, it's annoying, if it touches you it's %2 or so. Believe it or not, lobbing dmg adds up! Especially if you start getting blown up by them. The trajectory limits MK's mobility on the floor, if you run you might get Ftilted and so on.

Snake downthrows in certain stage positions are scary sometimes, during those situations the MK should probably use the options least expected. Even if it's stupid. Here's why:

-A Snake downthrow with the MK facing the edge is practically death, he holds shield and waits for any roll, get up attack etc. You're dead. You might as well try something silly like staying on the floor and wait for his shield to get small enough to poke him with the getup attack. You're dead anyways, might as well take the riskiest route to get out of that kind of situation. You have nothing to lose.

If Snake is on the edge, the best option would be dtilt and fair because they knock Snake AWAY from the stage. Tornado, ftilt, grounded upB will only lift him up... allowing an opportunity for him to get to the center of stage and perhaps the floor.

If you're caught in Snake's Nair, you can Upair in it sometimes.

MK's ftilt beats Snake's spotdodge pretty badly and knocks him into the air for a juggle or bait to regrab the airdodge.

Recently, Snake's have been using upairs and bairs, if you expect them then you'll probably never get hit by them. I honestly think Snake's aerials are amazing, they just require specific knowledge of when and how to use them.

When juggling, take the position that you know if he keeps going you will upair him. If he wave bounces, you can land and run quickly to his landing and punish. It's a presence control of the stage, even if Snake isn't near yet it still serves purpose to punish the possibility of Snake's trajectory.

To be honest, Tornado isn't great vs Snake, there are better options. Everyone expects it anyways, it's only useful vs a landing Snake. But I would personally rather grab any day. Or use it with the Dair bait. Nothing special.

An important aspect of matchup is the stage control on the floor, while Snake can limit the MK's ability to move across the floor, it means very little if the Snake begins to corner himself near the edge. A dash grab would mean gimp, a dtilt might knock him off the stage, etc etc. This process is slow, it takes a few sets of grenades, a few jumps and pokes.

[/COLLAPSE]

The old discussion can be found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463

From Snake's perspective:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274541

 

[demonictoonlink]

Reserved?!?!

 

[Player-4]

I checked with Red on this, and gave DTL the go ahead for this thread, if anyone was wondering.

 

[Kaffei]

MK can air camp if the Snake spams nades until MK see an opening. Dair camp is okay but throwing out random dairs can hit nades which is dum so you shouldn't do that

Once you see an opening you should get him in the air or off stage (obviously). there are snakes that like to play like falco. they will nade camp and then if you get too close they will Dacus across the stage. Fair, nado, properly spaced dairs can stop this easily.

When Snake is in the air above you they will air dodge, b reversal, nair/ dair. if they are air dodging a lot you can fast fall with them and nair them back into the air. MK can force air dodges using uair and then catch him with that nair/dair. nair is probably better if they are in kill %

If you notice the snake using a lot of nades, and you have the higher port, you can try to grab him while he's holding a nade and then omni gay him. This is kind of situational so I don't think it's a good idea to go for this often.

If they b reversal and you read them right nado can catch snake. if they are nairing you can also do the same thing as the air dodge, fast fall with the snake and then nair him in between the nair hits.

dont get grabbed because dthrow tech chase is gay. MK dies from a fresh utilt at around 100 at SV? i dont remember. GSL is pretty good too since it sends snake in the air and that is where you want him, but staling it is bad in case you get him in a good position for a SL off stage. GSL has invincibility frames from frame 5 to frame 8 so you can use this to detonate Snake's dsmash or his grenades without taking any damage. Watch out though cus this can be baited and punished so it's probably just better to avoid his nades the old fashioned way.

Snake can dair oos and if you don't SDI out you can take a lot of nasty damage, and the last hit will KILL YOU if you're at high %.
If you happened to both be at high % and you both get knocked into the air by a nade or something, MAKE SURE YOU JUMP AWAY because snake's uair will kill you when you're that high

the tip of MK's utilt kills snake at like 140%? you can catch him with that too if they don't expect it

also it's safe to SL snake far off stage because the cypher will hit you and then you can recover again

Tornado *****

Good stages to fight Snake on are Brinstar, RC, & I think Delfino/Frigate? Brinstar is absolutely amazing.
Bad stages to fight Snake on are Final Destination, Battleship Halberd

uh.. that's all I have :/ If anyone can correct me that would be great

 

[demonictoonlink]

Good stuff, Kaffei.

One thing though. Tornado DOES NOT **** Snake. It ***** bad Snakes.

Remember, when Snake punishes, he HARD punishes. If he shields your entire tornado, which is NOT HARD TO DO if they tilt their shield up, the can Utilt, Ftilt, or grab...which means Dthrow...

Even when you AC Tornado then can Ftilt it or Utilt or even still grab. It's just harder.

And four or five punishes from Snake means death.

In terms of beating Nado, Snake has tools. Utilt, Ftilt2, parts of Nair, Bair when falling (not always), nades obviously, and some other stuff. When inside the tornado, Snake can pull a grenade (as Kaffei knows lol) or sometimes DI out and bair.

There's a good video of Seibrik doing it somewhere, but all characters can footstool tornado so it doesn't autopunish landings either.

There are SO many things that can be done against tornado that people don't utilize. It is a good move in this matchup. It does not **** Snake.

 

[Player-4]

I agree and disagree. If you get Snake in the Nado without the nade then you're gonna be in great position and he's gonna be in a very poor one. However, if you approach with it then that's when you put yourself in the bad position. It's a great tool but you have to use it at the appropriate times.

 

[Kaffei]

Okay, not ****, but if he gets caught in it, Snake will be in a bad position, like P4 said. Sorry, I just love the word **** lmao

see M2K vs Ally orlando on brinstar

 

[napZzz]

for every 2 options snake has mk has like 6 more, he doesn't let snake touch the ground and once he's offstage he's pretty much dead

6/4 mk

snake just gets lucky sometimes by living long and killing low. Oh, and nado does **** snake. Remember ksizl vs. ally? lol. Its that the snake is bad, its just that the mk has to actually be smart about using it..

I think on FD or halberd the mu might not be as bad....but mk has too many CP stages to go to and **** snake even harder In a 3/5 set snake can be ****ed lol

 

[Kaffei]

Another thing people tend to do under pressure + when MK is at high % they will stop using grenades and focus really hard on trying to get that kill on you. Use this to your advantage, less grenades means easier approaching + more juggles. Expect utilts & basically everything else.. I mean this is probably just bad players but I think it helps.

 

[Latias]

0-100 mks favor, cause he can grab dem nades and throw um back. Plus his nado outprioritizes everything except when he has a nade in his hand, where you throw it bak like i sed. Anyways to gimp him watch ally vs m2k and see that you cypher grab cuz thats good tactic and then its auto win

 

[Kaffei]

wtf?
Snake can cook nades.if you try to grab them you'll just explode. Waste of frames & you take damage. If you try to catch it will sometimes fall out of your hands as you try to throw it.

Gimping a good snake is not easy + that cypher grab is very situational + what kind of dumb Snake would be in that position unless they were forced which is not often either

 

[Player-4]

I disagree NaPPy the scrub <3
6-4 is BS, honestly. I mean Snake ***** on the ground and MK wins in the air. But where are you the most? The ground. Snake actually has projectiles and does incredible damage output compared to MKs average damage output. Not to mention you live to 150-200% on average, but for us, once that 105+ % hits then it's a ***** trying to stay alive. Honestly the only thing that makes this in MKs favor is what he can do to Snake off stage. Don't sell yourself short, this is one of MK's hardest match ups: 55-45. But ratios are too early to come up with right now.

 

[Kaffei]

I think it's 6:4 MK on brinstar.
Lava is just super gay for Snake, there's not a lot of room to camp. snake is supposed to control stage with explosives but lava resets stage + MK can break up the stage using nado really easily

 

[Player-4]

It depends, I personally will never take Snake to Brinstar. It's near impossible to see nades, c4, and claymores, not to mention you can die pretty early too. I honestly think it depends on the player but if the MK knows it in and out then he can really give Snake hell.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Again, I think ratios at this point aren't necessary.

A few things:

MK doesn't REALLY gimp Snake...He puts him in a terrible position offstage, but a good Snake shouldn't be getting "gimped" per se.

Also, I was afraid people would bring up that Ally crap. Ally =/= Snake as much as we all think so. He gets ***** by Nado much more than he should be.

 

[Kaffei]

Then what is Ally doing wrong? whyd he get nado spammed back @ pound & then again at MLG. Why didn't he change anything

 

[demonictoonlink]

Top players are stubborn.

See M2K/Ally.

inb4Allynamesearchesandrages

 

[Kaffei]

roflololololloololo

 

[etecoon]

snake's damage output isn't THAT impressive when you consider what MK can do to snake in frame traps, yeah ftilt is 21% but MK can prevent snake from touching the ground for long periods racking up a lot of damage himself. however, don't think I could agree to 6:4...it is definitely a hard matchup, snake has a solid camping game, a great okizeme, lives a long time if he doesn't get gimped, and has power, but don't under estimate MK's power either - snake is very vulnerable to edge and juggle traps and MK excels at both.

I think brinstar is MK's best stage in this MU by a mile, if you're using MU ratio's I seriously think brinstar is like...10 points worse for snake than rainbow. snake does pretty decent on any other stage including RC though IMO(legit stages, not taking MLG/ohio **** into account here)

snake's options vs intelligent tornado use aren't that great. certainly ally could do better against it, there's always room for improvement, but tornado is obviously very good against snake regardless

 

[theunabletable]

I only noticed Ally getting ***** by nado from Ksizzle at pound 4, and then in that Brinstar match at Orlando.

It's a good option in this matchup. Don't just approach with nado, but in some situations it's really really good.

Havok gave me some advice in this matchup a few months ago, actually.

If he nade pulls and doesn't shield drop it and cooks it/runs to you to grab/shield, Dtilt is amazing here. If it hits, he has like no options. And it can really only be punished if he perfect shields it. And Dtilt won't blow it up.

And simply walking up is a good approach. I mean don't do it blindly, but walking up and tilting him works surprisingly well.

Dair camping can kinda work.

His nade pull has endlag, so you can punish him for pulling a nade if you're close (won't happen much, but still).

Make sure you learn the timing for the omnigay. It's reaaaaaaaaaally situational, but it happens, and when the opportunity comes up it's good to get a free stock.

One thing I’ve noticed recently that’s a really good mixup is if you land a dash grab right at the ledge, do an Fthrow immediately, then jump and nair at them. They have like no options if they don’t DI it right (and since buffering an Fthrow is faster than human reaction, it can happen).

If the nair hits them, they’re further off stage and in a bad position, if they air dodge it they’re below the stage, which is a REALLY bad position.

I mean if they DI away from you I think they might be fine, but it’s still a good mixup to think about.

FD isn’t reaaally bad. I’d rather go to FD than Halberd, anyways. For CPs, Brinstar is incredible. Just watch Ally vs M2K from Orlando and you’ll see why. But it’ll probably get banned by the Snake (or if you’re in a really stupid region, or have a stupid TO, it might be banned anyways). So RC is probably your best bet if they ban Brinstar. Delfino is good too.

DON’T dash attack him. The risk just isn’t worth the possible reward most of the time, and if you can punish him with it, a grab would be better anyways.

Make sure you can jab lock with your Dtilt consistently, every once in a long while a Snake might DI your Dthrow away and not tech/AD. The huge punish helps against Snake. It’s not hard to Dtilt lock, just practice it for a few minutes in training and you’ll have it down forever. It’s a really situational, but amazing when the situation comes up, trick that applies to every matchup.

Whatever the **** you do, don’t get grabbed. His Dthrow tech chase game is stupid.

Juggling is really important in this matchup. He’ll probably wavebounce a nade when he’s going in one direction, so be weary of that. Tornado can be helpful when he is in the air, but be careful of his BAir from above if you nado.

Tilts are good in this matchup. Your tilts are more disjointed than his, and they’re faster.

If you’re on the ledge/planking, watch the **** out for his C4. It has a CRAPTON of range and can hit you while you’re planking. (I didn’t know it could hit me while planking until it actually happened to me lol. So might as well mention it and hopefully save some new MK player from getting punished by C4 for playing gay )

Rethrowing his nades back at him is a viable option, but situational. He can shield drop another one and you’re ****ed, so be careful. Learn to instant throw (you should know how to do this for the Diddy matchup, too). But remember, be careful with throwing his nades.

Learn to SDI his nair and dair. Again situational, but dair OoS is dumb if you don’t SDI it. You’ll die stupidly early.

Don’t approach with nado or you’ll get *****, especially if you’re at high percents.

Don’t play TOO scared around his nades. Walking up is a surprisingly good option because his nades aren’t really dangerous for 3 seconds. You still have to be smart around them, but don’t be too scared to walk past a nade that’s only been on the ground for a second.

If you get a stock lead (or even a good percent lead maybe) you CAN camp him and possibly time him out.

If you’re gimping him, watch out for his forward air. They rarely use it, but it CAN hit since you rarely ever expect it. Just a little dumb mixup that Snake can do that you need to watch out for.

Mostly everyone already knows this, but in case new MKs read this, when Snake uses his cypher, you can aerial up-B him, and you’ll knock him away, and you’ll hit the cypher and be safe.

And if he cyphers near the stage, if you grab him and air release without pummeling, he can’t up B or jump again (but he can C4, unless you get hit by his cypher during the grab and auto-ground release him).

Learn the spacing of nado so that if he grenade pulls, you hit him without hitting the grenade.

Oh and don’t get surprised by an aggro Snake. It can REALLY catch you off guard if the opponent starts playing aggro and approaching and stuff, since most people expect Snake to constantly camp.

I’d say that the ratio is probably around 55:45, maybe better or worse depending on the ruleset. With MLG rules it’s definitely in the 55:45-60:40 range, but with a really conservative ruleset, it’s probably closer to 50:50.

So, basically, tilts can be good, don’t get grabbed, gimp him, juggle him, make sure not to get punished (as in don’t throw out really risky stuff, he punishes you stupidly hard), don’t be too scared of nades, punish him hard whenever you have the chance, and tornado is good but don't be dumb with it. Watch Ksizzle vs Ally from Pound 4 and M2K vs Ally from Orlando on Brinstar to see generally good usage of nado. But, really, just read the whole post

Oh and @DTL: Can you make sure to specify when you make summaries exactly which posts were the first and last in the character discussions, that way if someone wants to read all of the posts for that character discussion, they can without having to search through a big *** thread (that was a big problem with the last thread, especially for the characters that didn’t have summaries).

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, you have tons of options, but you'll die really really early.

Very interesting reading, tea. Add "he can be combo'd hard at low %, abuse of it whenever you got the chance", and that's pretty everything.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Really...really insane post Table. I'm using this in the OP. How do I do that hide text thing? Er...I'll figure it out. But really, amazing. I agree with it 100%.

And yeah, I'll specify posts. Good idea.

 

[theunabletable]

^When you quote my whole post and put it in the OP, you can just go to the bottom of the quote, and delete the text that you want to delete, really simple.

If you ever need help summarizing a matchup for the OP, or don’t have time or anything, just tell me and I’ll probably be up to it. Just puttin’ that out there ‘cause I wanna make sure this thread doesn’t die until we get most of the characters discussed

So, you have tons of options, but you'll die really really early.

Very interesting reading, tea. Add "he can be combo'd hard at low %, abuse of it whenever you got the chance", and that's pretty everything.

Yeah you have way more options than Snake, but having more options =/= doing way better than him. I mean look at D3. He doesn’t have a lot of options, but his options are so good that he doesn’t need a lot of them to be as high as he is.

Snake has counters for pretty much everything you can do if he predicts you, and he punishes you really hard. But MK can punish him really hard, too, and he’s, in general, safer.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Nah, I was talking about the collapse tag thing. Meno helped me with that.

Lol...I know how to delete stuff... . And I definitely will ask.

 

[**Havok**]

The MK should adjust to whatever the Snake does.

Fairing right outside of Snake's ftilt area is good because:
-Beats dash attack
-Catches Snake's who like to walk forward with a grenade (facing away)
-Catches Snake's Ftilt limbs from the correct distance.

^ Table is right about the Dtilt, spacing it when Snake tries to control the matchup with grenades is gold! Loses to dash attack and Ftilt though.

Personally, I like to rack up dmg as quickly as I can with Nairs, grabs (which puts him in the air for) and Upairs. A good Snake will never get shuttle looped to death, it's almost obsolete unless the Snake makes a mistake and is placed outside of the stage at an early percent.

I save the Downsmash to kill around %150-160, It sounds like alot and a bit absurd but it's not because:

-You have psychological advantage because of (hopefully) percent lead.
- At high percents Snake's will usually be in the air because they take so long to recover from everything so they will usually either...
A. Grenade "land" - Which you can Dsmash the FEET
B. Aerial - Shield, dsmash
C. Airdodge - Regrab or Dsmash

Someone probably already mentioned this, Snake's who leave grenades on the floor = Shuttle loop from the floor and use the invincibility frames to blow them up.

Grabs are HUGE to gain/build momentum, a pummel + Down throw = about %14. It's not hard to grab Snake! Just don't try to when he has a solid footing on the ground, it usually happens when he lands.

Buffer dash attack landings is nice when you read airdodges.

Personally I do not like, Dair camping. It doesn't accomplish much, both players don't get hit, however, it gives MK a bait (wait for uptilt - tornado). That's it! I would rather stay grounded and look for opportunities etc etc.

Offstage, a fresh Dair knocks Snake off his cypher, the rest after that do not. Be creative, Dair, Nair, Nair, wait, shuttle. Dead. A good Snake won't die from something like this, they'll probably take the c4 recovery route forcing the MK to get back to the stage. In this scenario, simply keep the Snake offstage for more dmg (which is why racking up dmg is very easy) or try to footstool his C4 recovery.

The best "kind" of grenade Snake can use on MK is the soft lob, it's annoying, if it touches you it's %2 or so. Believe it or not, lobbing dmg adds up! Especially if you start getting blown up by them. The trajectory limits MK's mobility on the floor, if you run you might get Ftilted and so on.

Snake downthrows in certain stage positions are scary sometimes, during those situations the MK should probably use the options least expected. Even if it's stupid. Here's why:

-A Snake downthrow with the MK facing the edge is practically death, he holds shield and waits for any roll, get up attack etc. You're dead. You might as well try something silly like staying on the floor and wait for his shield to get small enough to poke him with the getup attack. You're dead anyways, might as well take the riskiest route to get out of that kind of situation. You have nothing to lose.

If Snake is on the edge, the best option would be dtilt and fair because they knock Snake AWAY from the stage. Tornado, ftilt, grounded upB will only lift him up... allowing an opportunity for him to get to the center of stage and perhaps the floor.

If you're caught in Snake's Nair, you can Upair in it sometimes.

MK's ftilt beats Snake's spotdodge pretty badly and knocks him into the air for a juggle or bait to regrab the airdodge.

Recently, Snake's have been using upairs and bairs, if you expect them then you'll probably never get hit by them. I honestly think Snake's aerials are amazing, they just require specific knowledge of when and how to use them.

When juggling, take the position that you know if he keeps going you will upair him. If he wave bounces, you can land and run quickly to his landing and punish. It's a presence control of the stage, even if Snake isn't near yet it still serves purpose to punish the possibility of Snake's trajectory.

To be honest, Tornado isn't great vs Snake, there are better options. Everyone expects it anyways, it's only useful vs a landing Snake. But I would personally rather grab any day. Or use it with the Dair bait. Nothing special.

An important aspect of matchup is the stage control on the floor, while Snake can limit the MK's ability to move across the floor, it means very little if the Snake begins to corner himself near the edge. A dash grab would mean gimp, a dtilt might knock him off the stage, etc etc. This process is slow, it takes a few sets of grenades, a few jumps and pokes.

 

[theunabletable]

That's a lot more info than you'd told me at that SCV tourney lol. But, yeah, I remember you mentioning that MK should be playing more of a reactive game against MK, but I forgot to mention that in my post

Good stuff, though. I do agree about DAir camping. If you have a good stock lead it’d be good for timing out though, wouldn’t it?

And I might as well ask you about a potential option to help against Snake’s Dthrow, since I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned before…

If Snake Dthrows you, what options does he have if you just sit there and don’t roll or get up? How well does Snake’s jab > jab cancel > grab work? Against G&W I know I can SDI the jab away from him (I’ve even SDI’d it way the **** behind him and then punished his grab endlag ), so I imagine if I’m expecting a jab > grab from Snake I might be able to SDI it.

Really, though, after a Dthrow what options does Snake have if you don’t move at all? I'd appreciate the input if you could, Havok

 

[napZzz]

I disagree NaPPy the scrub <3
6-4 is BS, honestly. I mean Snake ***** on the ground and MK wins in the air. But where are you the most? The ground. Snake actually has projectiles and does incredible damage output compared to MKs average damage output. Not to mention you live to 150-200% on average, but for us, once that 105+ % hits then it's a ***** trying to stay alive. Honestly the only thing that makes this in MKs favor is what he can do to Snake off stage. Don't sell yourself short, this is one of MK's hardest match ups: 55-45. But ratios are too early to come up with right now.

snake has to work hard to keep mk out and even on the ground its even at best....mk's ftilt outspaces snakes (lol) and outside tilt/grab he's really limited in what he can do....you can just kinda wait for snake to **** up and punish with alot of ****. Plus once snakes in the air lol as long as you've got the basics of keeping snake in the air down he shouldn't touch down for awhile if things are played right, not trying to theory fighter here but you can watch alot of mk vs. snake vids of good players where snake just gets tossed around for awhile with no options really...

Again, I think ratios at this point aren't necessary.

A few things:

MK doesn't REALLY gimp Snake...He puts him in a terrible position offstage, but a good Snake shouldn't be getting "gimped" per se.

Also, I was afraid people would bring up that Ally crap. Ally =/= Snake as much as we all think so. He gets ***** by Nado much more than he should be.

yes he does. And if snake DOES recover, he's going to have taken way too much damage and might as well be dead lol. Yeah cuz you're so much better than him....the toon link he picked up mk a month ago knows more than ally

Top players are stubborn.

See M2K/Ally.

inb4Allynamesearchesandrages

m2k is stubborn with things like the diddy matchup, but other than that neither are dumb...they're sort of the worlds best you know

 

[Nairo]

my bro ksizzle is banned from smashboards for now but i think he understands da character snake da most out of anyone and is his best matchup wit alot of characters. thats why he beat ally 3 times and all the other snakes. if he doesnt get banned for posting on my account ill let him write a guide. he gets unbanned on the 4th of july.

 

[MKOwnage]

I think the matchup is pretty much even if you're not on Brinstar. Snake gets his *** handed to him on a plate on Brinstar.

 

[PottyJokes]

spam nado on platforms, its amazing.

 

[Player-4]

DTL, if you haven't read it already, I would add Havok's post. It's simply amazing, and one post I'll read again to help myself in the match up.

 

[demonictoonlink]

yes he does. And if snake DOES recover, he's going to have taken way too much damage and might as well be dead lol. Yeah cuz you're so much better than him....the toon link he picked up mk a month ago knows more than ally


m2k is stubborn with things like the diddy matchup, but other than that neither are dumb...they're sort of the worlds best you know

There's no reason to be mad or put words in my mouth. I would appreciate if you would try to be helpful rather than flaming.

And P4, I just got up, but I'll definitely read that post. I'll prolly put it in the OP as well.

Oh, and one thing @ Nappy: I've only mained MK for a month. I've seconded him and used him in tournament since my first tourny about two years ago. Again, no reason to be mad about this and I'm not trying to attack you.

 

[Exdeath]

for every 2 options snake has mk has like 6 more, he doesn't let snake touch the ground and once he's offstage he's pretty much dead

6/4 mk

snake just gets lucky sometimes by living long and killing low. Oh, and nado does **** snake. Remember ksizl vs. ally? lol. Its that the snake is bad, its just that the mk has to actually be smart about using it..

I think on FD or halberd the mu might not be as bad....but mk has too many CP stages to go to and **** snake even harder In a 3/5 set snake can be ****ed lol

MK can only select one option at a time and a character only needs two good CP stages to guarantee a good CP in a non-Final set. Both MK and Snake have that.

Also, Rainbow Cruise isn't that good against MK. The ship is essentially three small- and one medium-sized platforms, the rising part of the stage is great for MK, and then the top part is one of Snake's best legal stage locations; there isn't a ledge for MK to get free hits, Snake has a lot of platforms to help him reach the ground when being juggled, C4/Mines/etc. are at very convenient locations, and Utilt kills at ridiculously low percents.

 

[Player-4]

You know what I'd like for this thread to do. Make sub threads that have the match up discussion in it, then you can link to it in the OP after the summary is up and the discussion is over, that way if people want to sift through a specific match up, they can without going to hundred of pages (eventually).

So just make a new thread tilted "Snake Match Up Export" and continue the conversation from there (as well as future match ups).

P.S. I'm working on a match up chart currently, so hopefully I'll have that done soon so we can stick it on the front page.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Good, that's what I wanted to do. I think I should just have this be the Snake MU thread and make a different one for the main thread since this has all the posts in it.

 

[Player-4]

That sounds good. Just remake the new OP and I'll stick it and unstick this one.

 

[**Havok**]

Good stuff, though. I do agree about DAir camping. If you have a good stock lead it’d be good for timing out though, wouldn’t it?

It's not necessary to timeout a Snake, there are plenty of opportunities to win.

And I might as well ask you about a potential option to help against Snake’s Dthrow, since I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned before…

If Snake Dthrows you, what options does he have if you just sit there and don’t roll or get up? How well does Snake’s jab > jab cancel > grab work?

The SDI thing is interesting, but he can also Ftilt or Uptilt you. When I play Snake I do the Jab to regrab, so I would imagine other players do it as well. I'll look into the SDI.

 

[theunabletable]

It's not necessary to timeout a Snake, there are plenty of opportunities to win.

I agree that it’s not exactly necessary. But if you get an early stock lead from something like an omnigay or a gimp or something like that, it seems like it’d be a very viable option that you should keep in mind (only if dair camping is relatively safe, though), I think.

The SDI thing is interesting, but he can also Ftilt or Uptilt you. When I play Snake I do the Jab to regrab, so I would imagine other players do it as well. I'll look into the SDI.

At kill percents it’s not much of an option because of Utilt, but I’ve SDI’d G&Ws jab before to avoid the regrab (it’s so hilarious when you SDI it behind G&W and like nair him or something lol), so I imagine if you’re expecting the jab from Snake, you might be able to SDI far enough away on reaction that you can’t get regrabbed.

Ftilts an option that seems like it’d work. I’ll do some minor testing on my own to see.

 

[Exdeath]

At kill percents it’s not much of an option because of Utilt, but I’ve SDI’d G&Ws jab before to avoid the regrab (it’s so hilarious when you SDI it behind G&W and like nair him or something lol), so I imagine if you’re expecting the jab from Snake, you might be able to SDI far enough away on reaction that you can’t get regrabbed.

Ftilts an option that seems like it’d work. I’ll do some minor testing on my own to see.

SDI Jab and DI down for a free Ftilt, Dsmash, or grab (this requires near-frame perfection to be guaranteed -- as in he can't spot-dodge first.).

Ftilt into the ground and tech it. It will cover a second Ftilt/buffered grab/buffered jab/etc.

 

[Kaffei]

This is looking reallll nice so far. Ily guys