Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Alien Vision]

It doesn't help when the creator of the game purposely tried to make it stupid at a high level.

Yes, but you chose to implore your side of the argument.

You failed at doing so. Give a better argument. Not strawmanning and having a lack of knowledge on how to argue a point.

 

[Shwaffles]

Yes, but you chose to implore your side of the argument.

You failed at doing so. Give a better argument. That is what people need.. An ability to see truth in either side of the argument. Not your strawmanning and having a lack of knowledge on how to argue a point.

I already gave my argument. Metaknight is simply not good enough to warrant a ban. He has a heavy advantage in all matchups except for mirrors, but that's not enough. He needs to be at least 10 times better than every other character in the game to warrant a ban and currenty he isn't at mugen status.

 

[Hive]

That is one of the most asinine things to base any kind of sentiment off of. Nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to quit their character. Regardless of whether it was because of MK or not, they made that choice.

There's no poetic justice or great tragedy inherent in the ban, objectively-speaking.

Smooth Criminal

Just because a ruleset change doesn't force them to doesn't mean you can ignore that many many players have been strongly coerced to change characters (or at least have to learn new characters) to be able to remain a legitimate part of the competitive community in large part due to metaknight. I saw this happen all over the place in my own community back when I played and I imagine you've seen quite a few examples on the forums of this happening as well. Now its important to say that I'm not saying that's why he should be banned or trying to make an argument one way or another in any form in my post. All I am trying to do is highlight that mk mains can still be a part of the community, changing characters is not really anything new to the scene and and that their own character has caused this to happen as well so perhaps they can sympathize.

 

[Alien Vision]

Metaknight is simply not good enough to warrant a ban. He has a heavy advantage in all matchups except for mirrors, but that's not enough.

The heart of your argument lies here.

He needs to be at least 10 times better than every other character in the game to warrant a ban and currenty he isn't at mugen status

The *** of your argument lies here.

 

[Shwaffles]

The heart of your argument lies here.



The *** of your argument lies here.

So tell me how many 10-0 matches does he have? He is no where near ST Akuma or Ivan Ooze level in regards to strength.

 

[Ripple]

So tell me how many 10-0 matches does he have? He is no where near ST Akuma or Ivan Ooze level in regards to strength.

we didn't ban him because he was too good. but it helped contribute

edit: @alien, my point was that there was factual evidence for one side. though, granted, it doesn'thave to be enough for a ban

 

[Alien Vision]

So tell me how many 10-0 matches does he have? He is no where near ST Akuma level in regards to strength.

As someone has said earlier. Comparing this game with any other game is comparing apples to oranges.

Anyone can agree and disagree with a point that is primarily ambiguous and lacking factual properties.

Edit: Ripple, give me all of the factual reasons why MK should be banned based off of your perspective and research.

Then I will try to show you that neither side is as ''factual'' as you may think.

You guys only have ''points''. Not facts. Most points being extremely bias, and/or lacking substance.

 

[JPOBS]

I can agree with this somewhat. TOs always have authority at their own tournaments though

True, but they didn't say "we are banning metaknight at our individual tournies." I don't think anyone would have a problem.

Instead, they said "Metaknight is OFFICIALLY banned. Oh, and if you don't support our ruleset, we won't sticky your threads, good luck gaining attendence when we shun you from our community"
Which is a load of bull.

 

[Shwaffles]

As someone has said earlier. Comparing this game with any other game is comparing apples to oranges.

Anyone can agree and disagree with a point that is primarily ambiguous and holds no factual properties.

No, it's not apples and oranges. The line on what should or should not be banned becomes extremely blurry when you start banning characters and tactics. There are characters in other games that are as overpowered or more, and still have not received a ban. Banning him because he wins over 50% of the tournies is not a good argument, nor is having no bad matchups, nor due to the fact that the majority of the community wants him banned.

As ******** as metaknight is, he doesn't omit the entire cast from the game like Akuma in ST or Ivan Ooze in MMPR.

 

[infiniteV115]

He needs to be at least 10 times better than every other character in the game to warrant a ban.

Because you can obviously quantify the quality of a character into numerical values with units, right?

JPOBS, what you said (about neither side being able to put the arguments of the other side to rest) is true. This is because this entire argument pretty much boils down to a subjective line of how much is "too much". In other words, extent. I've seen people who basically say "he is beatable therefore he should be legal". There is also the point that MK on average wins about %40 of the money circulated through tournaments (which has been brought up many times), and some people just dismiss this argument because they don't think %40 warrants a ban.

There's never going to be a way to satisfy everybody with 1 ruleset. If he's banned, the anti-ban side gets upset. If not, the pro-ban side will be upset. There's no half-way here; all attempts at limiting MK so far have been either ridiculous or ineffective (as far as I know). The URC decided that satisfying the large majority was the right thing to do, and it makes sense.

Besides, it's not like he's perma-banned. I'm sure there will be another poll asking whether or not he should be legalized a few months after Apex (unless the URC is full of a bunch of idiots, which I highly doubt). And you're not forced to use the Unity Ruleset either.

TL;DR There will always be people that are unhappy with the ruleset, so everybody just stfu and play.

 

[Alien Vision]

No, it's not apples and oranges. The line on what should or should not be banned becomes extremely blurry when you start banning characters and tactics. There are characters in other games that are as overpowered or more, and still have not received a ban. Banning him because he wins over 50% of the tournies is not a good argument, nor is having no bad matchups, nor due to the fact that the majority of the community wants him banned.

It is. When they are two completely different characters, two different games, two different situations.. That's just being ignorant and providing no reasonable argument to the main point at hand.

You aren't getting anywhere with the game comparisions.

I don't think anyone has actually. Correct me if I am wrong @ everyone that is lurking.

 

[popsofctown]

Just because a ruleset change doesn't force them to doesn't mean you can ignore that many many players have been strongly coerced to change characters (or at least have to learn new characters) to be able to remain a legitimate part of the competitive community in large part due to metaknight. I saw this happen all over the place in my own community back when I played and I imagine you've seen quite a few examples on the forums of this happening as well. Now its important to say that I'm not saying that's why he should be banned or trying to make an argument one way or another in any form in my post. All I am trying to do is highlight that mk mains can still be a part of the community, changing characters is not really anything new to the scene and and that their own character has caused this to happen as well so perhaps they can sympathize.

G&W coerced me into quitting zelda/sheik. Ban G&W?

There's hardly any evidence that an MK ban allows more people to play their favorite character than the lack thereof. Most underplayed characters are weaker than everything above them on the tier list so they still have plenty of reasons not to get blindpicked.

And the people who quoted me misread my post. I meant Marths make less money than MKs, now, pre ban.

 

[metroidpescao4]

MK banned! Darn it! I don't know if was a bad or good desicion but i really love challenge hard MK players!. let see what happen to the future tourneys!

 

[Shwaffles]

Because you can obviously quantify the quality of a character into numerical values with units, right?

JPOBS, what you said (about neither side being able to put the arguments of the other side to rest) is true. This is because this entire argument pretty much boils down to a subjective line of how much is "too much". In other words, extent. I've seen people who basically say "he is beatable therefore he should be legal". There is also the point that MK on average wins about %40 of the money circulated through tournaments (which has been brought up many times), and some people just dismiss this argument because they don't think %40 warrants a ban.

There's never going to be a way to satisfy everybody with 1 ruleset. If he's banned, the anti-ban side gets upset. If not, the pro-ban side will be upset. There's no half-way here; all attempts at limiting MK so far have been either ridiculous or ineffective (as far as I know). The URC decided that satisfying the large majority was the right thing to do, and it makes sense.

Besides, it's not like he's perma-banned. I'm sure there will be another poll asking whether or not he should be legalized a few months after Apex (unless the URC is full of a bunch of idiots, which I highly doubt). And you're not forced to use the Unity Ruleset either.

TL;DR There will always be people that are unhappy with the ruleset, so everybody just stfu and play.

You don't seem to understand how broken these characters I'm talking about. If Akuma was legal in ST, every single person would be forced to play Akuma if they wanted just to have a chance to make it into top 8. Super Turbo was not designed to handle air fireballs and so nothing in the game can beat them. Air fireballs are only the icing on the cake compared to the rest of the **** he has. The only way to beat him with a normal character at a high level is to literally take the other guy's arcade stick away from him.

It is. When they are two completely different characters, two different games, two different situations.. That's just being ignorant and providing no reasonable argument to the main point at hand.

You aren't getting anywhere with the game comparisions.

I don't think anyone has actually. Correct me if I am wrong @ everyone that is lurking.

Yes, I am. Metaknight doesn't have anything that can be considered unbeatable, so he doesn't warrant a ban. The lines on what should or should not be banned need to be VERY clear.

 

[Xyless]

You don't seem to understand how broken these characters I'm talking about. If Akuma was legal in ST, every single person would be forced to play Akuma if they wanted just to have a chance to make it into top 8. Super Turbo was not designed to handle air fireballs and so nothing in the game can beat them. Air fireballs are only the icing on the cake compared to the rest of the **** he has. The only way to beat him with a normal character at a high level is to literally take the other guy's arcade stick away from him.

Also Gill.

 

[Shwaffles]

Also Gill.

Damn I forgot about him too. Thanks.

 

[JPOBS]

TL;DR There will always be people that are unhappy with the ruleset, so everybody just stfu and play.

Indeed, in which case, the default option should be to just leave the game alone as much as possible.

But somehow, the URC came to the conclusion:
lack of definitive evidence towards ban = Ban him because we want too.

And that simply should not be allowed to fly.

I like your post a lot though.

 

[ElDominio]

You know, if you want to host MK legal tourneys you can just ask to run an experimental ruleset tourney and have it stickied anyways...

 

[Alien Vision]

Either I am right about videogame comparisions having done nothing to contribute to this current argument or.. I am just being ignored.

Hooray!

Mew!~

 

[Shwaffles]

Either I am right about videogame comparisions having done nothing to contribute to this current argument or.. I am just being ignored.

Hooray!

Mew!~

Nope read above. The line between what is and is not unbeatable is VERY clear regardless of the game or genre.

 

[Alien Vision]

Nope read above. The line between what is and is not unbeatable is VERY clear regardless of the game or genre.

It is not clear. That is for that game.

We are talking about this game.

What we do in this country may not be the same thing others do in their country nor may they be treated the same way.

That is why it's ''DIFFERENT''. You aren't getting anywhere, and you are blinding your overall argument.

 

[JPOBS]

Either I am right about videogame comparisions having done nothing to contribute to this current argument or.. I am just being ignored.

Hooray!

Mew!~

The reaosn you're mostly being ignored is because you're essentially just closing your ears and saying "LALALAL DIFFERENT GAMES, LALA DOES NOT COMPUTE" because you can't be bothered to see what that side is saying.

Just because the games are different doesn't mean we can't learn from them. The fighting game genre and community at large is a lot older than brawl. Doesn't mean we have to do everything their way, but it also doesn't mean we should just ignore everything that isn't brawl.

 

[Shwaffles]

It is not clear. That is for that game.

We are talking about this game.

What we do in this country may not be the same thing others do in their country nor may they be treated the same way.

That is why it's ''DIFFERENT''. You aren't getting anywhere, and you are blinding your overall argument.

It's very simple. Is metaknight completely unbeatable at a high level? Yes or no?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Just because a ruleset change doesn't force them to doesn't mean you can ignore that many many players have been strongly coerced to change characters (or at least have to learn new characters) to be able to remain a legitimate part of the competitive community in large part due to metaknight. I saw this happen all over the place in my own community back when I played and I imagine you've seen quite a few examples on the forums of this happening as well. Now its important to say that I'm not saying that's why he should be banned or trying to make an argument one way or another in any form in my post. All I am trying to do is highlight that mk mains can still be a part of the community, changing characters is not really anything new to the scene and and that their own character has caused this to happen as well so perhaps they can sympathize.

Why should they sympathize? They played their character. Nothing more, nothing less.

And yes, conversely, it sucks that MK mains lost their character because of the ban. That isn't the kind of lense they, or anybody else involved in this debate, should be looking through.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Alien Vision]

The reaosn you're mostly being ignored is because you're essentially just closing your ears and saying "LALALAL DIFFERENT GAMES, LALA DOES NOT COMPUTE" because you can't be bothered to see what that side is saying.

Just because the games are different doesn't mean we can't learn from them. The fighting game genre and community at large is a lot older than brawl. Doesn't mean we have to do everything their way, but it also doesn't mean we should just ignore everything that isn't brawl.

Then tell me what logic there is in that? It doesn't serve any contribution in any way.

Just because that character does this and that to win.. Doesn't mean that same circumstance should be influencing the same principle for another videogame character that simulates that same circumstance.

Where is the logic in any of that? We are talking about MK. Not Akuma. MK.

@ Shwaffles - No. MK's can still **** up. It's their priority and insane strengths over other characters that make them the threat that they are.

 

[Shwaffles]

@ Shwaffles - No. MK's can still **** up. It's their priority and insane strengths over other characters that make them the threat that they are.

Not unbeatable you say? Well you have your answer now. Not good enough for a ban. I rest my case.

 

[Alien Vision]

Not unbeatable you say? Well you have your answer now. Not good enough for a ban.

I support the ban for a reason now that it has been made, and the rest I am neutral.

Reason: It won't hurt to see how much of a difference MK really made when he was free to induce wrath.

Kids will get mad if they get grounded. Kids never learn to do other things while they are grounded.

 

[Ghostbone]

Not unbeatable you say? Well you have your answer now. Not good enough for a ban. I rest my case.

lol at a character needing to be unbeatable to warrant a ban.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Read all 208 pages.
I laughed, I cried, I raged, and I ate popcorn.

 

[Shwaffles]

I support the ban for a reason now that it has been made, and the rest I am neutral.

Reason: It won't hurt to see how much of a difference MK really makes in the meta-game.

Kids will get mad if they get grounded. Kids never learn to do other things while they are grounded.

Absolutely awful analogy and you say I didn't make any sense. Tournaments are about winning and not for playing a variety of characters. All you do is split the community even more with the "metaknight-allowed" and "metaknight-banned" formats.

lol at a character needing to be unbeatable to warrant a ban.

Nice scrubquote.

 

[Ghostbone]

Absolutely awful analogy and you say I didn't make any sense. Tournaments are about winning and not for playing a variety of characters. All you do is split the community even more with the "metaknight-allowed" and "metaknight-banned" formats.

People were already hosting MK banned tournaments before the ban.
Derp

 

[Shwaffles]

People were already hosting MK banned tournaments before the ban.
Derp

Well then they are scrubby people, sorry.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well then they are scrubby people, sorry.

Moving the goal post are we? Before you said the MK ban would split the community, but clearly the community was already split on the issue (more and more MK banned tournaments were cropping up)

Anyway, what's your justification for a character needing to be unbeatable to warrant a ban?

 

[Alien Vision]

Absolutely awful analogy and you say I didn't make any sense. Tournaments are about winning and not for playing a variety of characters. All you do is split the community even more with the "metaknight-allowed" and "metaknight-banned" formats.

What is so awful about my analogy?

Kids don't want to do different things when they are grounded. They sit and complain..

What are alot of MK mains doing? They are complaining which is why their voice isn't really being heard.

The pro-ban individuals' ''information'' isn't even sufficient for a ban. I will agree to that, but the decision has been made and the entire thesis has switched from being built by us, to being built by the aftermath of this decision.

Either way. I am neutral, and I approve of the outcome of all of this now that it has come to it.

 

[Reyney]

you guys should visit this thread, if ur curious about m2k's thoughts about the ban.
i think its interesting, since he doesnt show up here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312013

 

[Shwaffles]

Moving the goal post are we? Before you said the MK ban would split the community, but clearly the community was already split on the issue (more and more MK banned tournaments were cropping up)

Anyway, what's your justification for a character needing to be unbeatable to warrant a ban?

So if they aren't unbeatable at the highest levels, then why should they be banned? Your going to ban them, because they are boring? If a tactic is beatable, then it should not be banned no matter how lame or annoying or boring it is.

What is so awful about my analogy?

Kids don't want to do different things when they are grounded. They sit and complain..

What are alot of MK mains doing? They are complaining which is why their voice isn't really being heard.

The pro-ban individuals' ''information'' isn't even sufficient for a ban. I will agree to that, but the decision has been made and the entire thesis has switched from being built by us, to being built by the aftermath of this decision.

Either way. I am neutral, and I approve of the outcome of all of this now that it has come to it.

Well then we must have been talking about two different people. Your talking about the whiners (I don't even play metaknight lmao) on both sides, but I'm talking about the non-metaknight whiners who are happy he was banned and giving bull**** reasons for it's warrant.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I am of the opinion that anyone who quits Brawl after the Metaknight ban probably shouldn't have been playing it in the first place.

But that's just my thoughts.

 

[Ghostbone]

The pro-ban individuals' ''information'' isn't even sufficient for a ban. I will agree to that, but the decision has been made and the entire thesis has switched from being built by us, to being built by the aftermath of this decision.

Claiming that it's not sufficient doesn't make it not sufficient.

It's a matter of opinion, it's impossible to objectively decide whether a character should be banned in Brawl, as before Brawl came out it was never decided how "good" a character had to be before they were "too good".

Some people think the data is sufficient to ban MK, some don't, but a lot more do, at every level of play.

So if they aren't unbeatable at the highest levels, then why should they be banned? Your going to ban them, because they are boring? If a tactic is beatable, then it should not be banned no matter how lame or annoying or boring it is.

Because the character is ruining tournament attendance/hype, and the majority wants him banned, basically.
It extends to how without MK we'd likely see much greater character diversity, and the metagame would overall be a lot healthier than it is now.
We've had to cater our ruleset towards MK, banning stages that would otherwise be fine and implementing LGL and scrooging limits.

 

[Hive]

G&W coerced me into quitting zelda/sheik. Ban G&W?

except that i'm not even saying mk should be banned bc of that. All I'm saying is that if you still like the game and the ban persists you can still play another character, its not something that is unique to the mk experience, loads of players have had to evolve into new roles (a lot primarily due to mk, as an example).

 

[Alien Vision]

Claiming that it's not sufficient doesn't make it not sufficient.

It's a matter of opinion, it's impossible to objectively decide whether a character should be banned in Brawl, as before Brawl came out it was never decided how "good" a character had to be before they were "too good".

Some people think the data is sufficient to ban MK, some don't, but a lot more do, at every level of play.

Well, if you see that there are holes in the information, and that the reasons they've provided weren't exactly as solid as you would want it to be. You would also believe that their decision was a little bit on the shaky side, and you tend to question the overall foundation of the entire conclusion.

Just because you read over 1000 pages doesn't make you any eligible to make a decision.

Just because you have data, and polls.. Still doesn't neccessarily mean you are outlining the problem.

Just because you feel incredibly strong towards a decision after all of the above.. Doesn't mean you are leaning towards the right decision.

Just because everyone else votes in favor. STILL doesn't neccessarily mean it was a correct decision when everything doesn't really add up, when there are still holes in their reasons, and some of the evidence they have isn't exactly telling the whole story of MK and his reigning over brawl.

See where I am getting at? They ''banned'' a character when they had shaky reasoning, and a very bias structure to go by.

Both parties hold valuable points, but only one party started it all.