Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Guys = People. I didn't mean Guy as in male.

Likewise, Jigglypuff has no official known gender, and Sheik is often confused for male.(which is dumb, but eh) Which means my phrasing wasn't totally off.

But on a serious note, you get what I mean.

 

[lilseph]

Quick question here since it has been on my mind for awhile now. Wouldn't saying Metaknight (the best character in the game) has no equal apply to every fighting game? I mean fox in melee was not overpowering, but he is the best in the game (Like MK), and also has no bad MU's (from my knowledge), I'm not making a case to ban fox but I'm just saying that wouldn't that argument be invalid? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just wondering.

 

[Ripple]

saying fox has no equal isn't true though, even though he may have been the overall best. mostly because falco could do everything fox could do but may have had a couple less completely dominant MUs in low tier

 

[IhaveSonar]

Ah. I figured you meant guys as in people, but I just took the chance to clarify that Sheik and Jiggz(she is a she) are girls, since a lot of people don't know.

Anyway, back to MK discussion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@lilseph: The problem is, Fox actually has bad match-ups. If he didn't, he'd be in his own tier. That's part of how tiers work. In order to be in your own, you either have to have zero good match-ups(bottom tier), or no bad ones(top tier). MK has no bad match-ups, so he has his own tier. At one time Ganondorf was strictly at the bottom. This is no longer the case, but he's still among the bottom regardless, and is still the worst character.

@IhaveSonar: As I said before, Jigglypuff's gender is not official. No, the bow is not a true indicator. We think the character's costumes imply being female, but none of that is official. I do think J-Puff is female myself, but I don't say that for certainty. Just noting.

 

[IhaveSonar]

Quick question here since it has been on my mind for awhile now. Wouldn't saying Metaknight (the best character in the game) has no equal apply to every fighting game? I mean fox in melee was not overpowering, but he is the best in the game (Like MK), and also has no bad MU's (from my knowledge), I'm not making a case to ban fox but I'm just saying that wouldn't that argument be invalid? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just wondering.

While Fox, technically speaking, has no equal, the difference between him and the other three members of his tier is insignificant enough that they all perform roughly on the same level.


The gap between MK and Snake, however, is huge.

 

[lilseph]

The gap between MK and Snake, however, is huge.

I wouldn't say that. I mean its not like the MU is unwinnable or anything, its just hard for snake. But I get what your saying.

 

[Ripple]

I wouldn't say that. I mean its not like the MU is unwinnable or anything, its just hard for snake. But I get what your saying.

not the MU of snake vs. MK, but the whole aspect of things

 

[lilseph]

Ah yes, sorry I misread that. That is very true.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The tiers are defined by the characters within them, not the other way around. It's really stupid to say "well, yeah, Meta Knight's a whole level above everyone else, but that's fine, because he's a whole tier above everyone else."

In addition, centralization in Melee appears to be far less prevalent -telling is that nobody is surprised about a non-top-tier beating a top-tier unless it's surprising for said non-top-tier to be winning at all. Meanwhile you're here pointing out singular match-ups and citing sets that can be counted on one hand.

As to the question itself, I already mentioned that "centralizing" around four characters still leads to far more varied of an environment than centralizing around a singular character.

S tier is S tier no matter how many characters are in that tier just like Uber is Uber in Pokemon. It doesn't matter how many characters there are. If they are overcentralizing, they should be banned.

 

[Ripple]

since when does S tier automatically mean overcentralizing?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

S tier is S tier no matter how many characters are in that tier just like Uber is Uber in Pokemon. It doesn't matter how many characters there are. If they are overcentralizing, they should be banned.

No, they really shouldn't. Do you even get it? We aren't trying to ban a tier here. That was not the intention.

MK is the one being banned. He was good enough to GET his own Tier. This does mean we're banning a Tier, but a character. You are completely generalizing it.

Likewise, it ain't S Tier. It's in reality God Tier. God Tier are only for bosses. That means MK is a boss. Bosses are banned in gameplay. Get it already? MK is more than good enough to be called a playable boss. He's in the same Tier as Algol and Abyss in Soul Calibur. Those are boss characters.

And even then, if we go to Hilde, who is in her own Tier. She's banned too. No matter how you slice it, you aren't banning a Tier, but a character. There's a difference here.

The fact that he has his own Tier means he was good enough to get there. Tiers aren't the point, the character is. Tiers are also beyond subjective, but we both know MK is the best overall, and that's with data alone. Frame Data, invincibility with his Air Up A. And so on. You're going to just have to accept it: We aren't banning a Tier, but a Character. That's what actually happened.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@ Ripple, It doesn't. MK is perfect for the tier he was placed in

 

[Eddie G]

@ Ripple, It doesn't. MK is perfect for the tier he was placed in

Again, according to you.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Buddy, the Tier was MADE for MK. Not the other way around. If he wasn't perfect, he'd still be in the other Tier. Thus, MK was the problem, not the Tier. Do you understand the difference here?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Again, according to you.

Using your data, He makes less money than the next best tier

 

[IhaveSonar]

We're discussing specific characters, not tiers as a whole. The only reason MK is in his own tier is because he, as a specific character, is far superior to the rest of the cast. In melee, no one character is far superior.

 

[John12346]

Using your data, He makes less money than the next best tier

That argument would only work if we were banning God/S Tier...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That argument would only work if we were banning God/S Tier...

MK is the only character in S tier so we are basically banning S tier.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tell me, how did the S Tier get created then?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I was going to come through and put jebus on blast again real quick but it looks like you guys already got that covered for me.

Jebus, are you coming to Apex? Because its clear that this kind of simple idea isnt going to get through your thick skull unless its explained to you flat out in person.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I was going to come through and put jebus on blast again real quick but it looks like you guys already got that covered for me.

Jebus, are you coming to Apex? Because its clear that this kind of simple idea isnt going to get through your thick skull unless its explained to you flat out in person.

I don't think I'm going to Apex

 

[John12346]

MK is the only character in S tier so we are basically banning S tier.

"Basically." You know motivation is an important part in banning stuff. We're not banning MK on the premise that he is all of S Tier, but rather because he's a broken piece of crap that needed to be taken out of the game.

It's just that, being a broken piece of crap will *usually* land you in S Tier, is all.
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OH also

Using your data, He makes less money than the next best tier

can't let u do that star fawks

 

[SaveMeJebus]

"Basically." You know motivation is an important part in banning stuff. We're not banning MK on the premise that he is all of S Tier, but rather because he's a broken piece of crap that needed to be taken out of the game.

It's just that, being a broken piece of crap will *usually* land you in S Tier, is all.
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OH also

can't let u do that star fawks

I won't look at it until I post this, but if B tier makes as much as A tier or more, I will change sides.

 

[John12346]

Ah, not quite.

Oh well, so much for that 1 hit KO... >___>;

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What would be the next one?

 

[Ripple]

top character makes more than the next 5 best characters combined

lol

 

[SaveMeJebus]

S tier might make more than A tier which has 3 characters, but A tier makes more than B tier which has 5 characters

 

[Ripple]

S tier might make more than A tier which has 3 characters, but A tier makes more than B tier which has 5 characters

how is that relevant to what I posted.

all you said is the 5>3

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't know why I quoted you

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Looking at the charts, we can notice one thing: MK makes more than double the money of any character. Only combined does it get around 11% lower.

He makes almost 50% of the actual money. That's pretty damn centralizing, now isn't it? I mean, if MK wasn't the centralized force, he wouldn't be making nearly that much, right? The data doesn't lie. It only shows that MK is the most dominant force, and nobody even comes close.

The fact that it requires atleast 3 characters to even get 10% lower than him shows he's leagues above the rest. So we both know he's the best character in the game by a large margin.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Looking at the charts, we can notice one thing: MK makes more than double the money of any character. Only combined does it get around 11% lower.

He makes almost 50% of the actual money. That's pretty damn centralizing, now isn't it? I mean, if MK wasn't the centralized force, he wouldn't be making nearly that much, right? The data doesn't lie. It only shows that MK is the most dominant force, and nobody even comes close.

The fact that it requires atleast 3 characters to even get 10% lower than him shows he's leagues above the rest. So we both know he's the best character in the game by a large margin.

S tier might make more than A tier which has 3 characters, but A tier makes more than B tier which has 5 characters

This is who I should have quoted with that

 

[Cassio]

The last 10 pages were torture.

People who argue with my opinion make me never want to visit Meta-Game discussion ever again.
I want the people who dont disagree with me.

You know, the people who dont make me think.

I hear yah. Some people are just so over the top biased they may as well not participate in discussion.

 

[Ripple]

This is who I should have quoted with that

so what's your point?

 

[Eddie G]

I'm sorry we can't all post under a guise of constantly remaining on the fence, Cassio. Some of us like to actually take a solid stance.

You act as if these merry-go-round discussions on these public threads ever got anyone anywhere on anything anyway. /any

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@Jebus: That's how tiers work. Of course the higher tier will make more. But if you look at those same numbers, do you notice something? The highest in A Tier doesn't make more than double than the highest in B Tier. That means that the dominance isn't nearly the same. Thus, I can still stay correct that MK is leagues above the cast when it comes to making money.

Just look at the ratios themselves. MK makes almost triple the amount of money as Snake, the next highest in money. Snake makes less than double the next highest.

Money-wise, MK wins by a large margin.

And that's just money. Now let's look at official match-ups. Name one person that can consistently beat MK. You can't, of course. Every other character can be beaten reasonably or consistently, except MK. So what does that tell us? MK can't go on the lower Tier because the A Tier only exists of characters with bad match-ups. MK doesn't. He earned his own Tier by being beyond the best.

He's the extreme here.

Let me put it this way: Name a person who's on the same level as ST Akuma. You can't either. Now, MK is not on his level, I will admit. But he's getting there. In fact, I'd say he's on the level as the four bosses of Street Fighter II. The difference is that they atleast had more than one character on their level. MK doesn't have this.

Keeping that in mind, are you starting to get why we don't ban a single Tier, but the character?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

so what's your point?

That I quoted the wrong person.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Jebus: That's how tiers work. Of course the higher tier will make more. But if you look at those same numbers, do you notice something? The highest in A Tier doesn't make more than double than the highest in B Tier. That means that the dominance isn't nearly the same. Thus, I can still stay correct that MK is leagues above the cast when it comes to making money.

Just look at the ratios themselves. MK makes almost triple the amount of money as Snake, the next highest in money. Snake makes less than double the next highest.

Money-wise, MK wins by a large margin.

And that's just money. Now let's look at official match-ups. Name one person that can consistently beat MK. You can't, of course. Every other character can be beaten reasonably or consistently, except MK. So what does that tell us? MK can't go on the lower Tier because the A Tier only exists of characters with bad match-ups. MK doesn't. He earned his own Tier by being beyond the best.

He's the extreme here.

Let me put it this way: Name a person who's on the same level as ST Akuma. You can't either. Now, MK is not on his level, I will admit. But he's getting there. In fact, I'd say he's on the level as the four bosses of Street Fighter II. The difference is that they atleast had more than one character on their level. MK doesn't have this.

Keeping that in mind, are you starting to get why we don't ban a single Tier, but the character?

How about we take the character that makes the most money from A tier and Compare it to the character that makes to most from B tier. What happens now?

Sorry for the double post

 

[Cassio]

I'm sorry we can't all post under a guise of constantly remaining on the fence, Cassio. Some of us like to actually take a solid stance.

You act as if these merry-go-round discussions on these public threads ever got anyone anywhere on anything anyway. /any

That post wasnt directed at anyone but to the one it responded to.

 

[Conviction]

Okay I'm just saying this is how I view the Metagame Discussion top 3 sticky thread right now.

Jebus vs. Pro Ban Thread
Doc King In: DDD rules the World Tier List Thread
Match Up Chart: Don't let the Doc or Jebus see this thread

/Real Talk