Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Thino]

Same as Xubble. And he did not, ShadowLink84.

Also, people really shouldn't write off the whole "making rules for Meta Knight" factor. Okay, maybe we didn't make a ton of them. But that's so far the best suggestion people have given to currently keep him legal, rather proving that point. Just saying.

The problem isnt the number of rules to keep him legal, the problem is why come up with those rules in first place.

 

[War Anvil]

Yes! Yes!

Now we'll get to see some Sonic action.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem isnt the number of rules to keep him legal, the problem is why come up with those rules in first place.

Because Meta Knight is the only reason we need those Meta Knight specific rules. Rather obvious. We shouldn't need to make them in the first place, unfortunately, we have to.

 

[Thino]

Because Meta Knight is the only reason we need those Meta Knight specific rules. Rather obvious. We shouldn't need to make them in the first place, unfortunately, we have to.

"Metaknight" said like this all by itself doesn't stand as reason and is not as obvious as you seem to think it is.

Explain each of the MK rules and why we "have to" have them.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

"Metaknight" said like this all by itself doesn't stand as reason and is not as obvious as you seem to think it is.

Explain each of the MK rules and why we "have to" have them.

>_> Don't bother reasoning with HyperFalcon in this way. He'd rather just celebrate the banning of Metaknight without the prospects of entering tournaments himself.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"Metaknight" said like this all by itself doesn't stand as reason and is not as obvious as you seem to think it is.

Explain each of the MK rules and why we "have to" have them.

Look, I haven't read every single one. I do not play in the tournaments. However, one fact remains: Many people are trying to put arbitary rules to keep him legal. This only says one thing: Apparently he's not fair enough in gameplay to have his regular options completely available. I'm not talking about the IDC. That one is for stalling, and understandable. And isn't banworthy on its own.

Likewise, besides that, let's remove every single rule meant to keep him in place. What will happen? He'll win more often. He has a different lgl because he's the abuser of it. That's another rule made specifically for him. Well, he has a variation of the rule. Why does no one else have this? Because he abuses it. Thus, he's the one causing the current problem, nobody else.

If you hadn't noticed, nobody has special rules but HIM. Nobody else. If we remove everything but the IDC(which really isn't his fault, as any stalling is banned, he just happens to have it, so this is a bit different) and all rules related to him. Can we really say he won't cause trouble? That's what people just aren't getting. He breaks stuff under our current ruleset. And we have put rules to nerf him. He finds a way around it. The rules aren't the problem, he is. The only way to fix him is either more ridiculous rules, or to hack the game. And we've tried rules, haven't we? We can't hack the game for major tourneys, due to the Nintendo's EULA actually stating that hacking their system is illegal. So that's out. So tell me this then: Are you willing to make more rules for one character? Or just ban them instead? That's what's happening.

It doesn't matter if he has only a few rules. It's pretty much him that is getting special treatment here.(as I said, stalling is an acceptable thing to ban, because it actually makes games longer. Anything else is taking away his options, which is really the only choice to give character diversity. But that's not fair to the players either, now is it?) Every time you say he's not broken, you pretend that he's playing at the same level as the other characters. But he has atleast one rule(that I know of) that really shouldn't exist in the first place(the lgl) that is different from the rest. We are nerfing a character in order to make that one character reasonable to fight against. Whether 1 or more, it's still bad no matter how you look at it.

Now, as I read the current Unity Ruleset... there's 2 Ledge Grab Limits specifically made for him. There's also his stalling tactic banned. Remove the Ledge Grab Limits, and he's going to wreak havoc, which he already does anyway.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Look, I haven't read every single one. I do not play in the tournaments.

He proved my point!

We can't hack the game for major tourneys, due to the Nintendo's EULA actually stating that hacking their system is illegal. So that's out.

While I agree that hacking systems for tournament play is impractical, I would like to point out that Shadic and Duderino completely thrashed this point earlier on in this thread. Would you like me to repost the articles for you...?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Samuelson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD11l3omQzM if you guys haven't seen this yet i suggest you do, very interesting points are brought up.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD11l3omQzM if you guys haven't seen this yet i suggest you do, very interesting points are brought up.

Been posted before. Also, he needs to redo the video a bit. The percentage was 20% usage, not 11%.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Been posted before. Also, he needs to redo the video a bit. The percentage was 20% usage, not 11%.

*raises an eyebrow.*

I'm waiting for your reply, Falcon.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thino]

Look, I haven't read every single one. I do not play in the tournaments. However, one fact remains: Many people are trying to put arbitary rules to keep him legal. This only says one thing: Apparently he's not fair enough in gamephylay to have his regular options completely available. I'm not talking about the IDC. That one is for stalling, and understandable. And isn't banworthy on its own.

Likewise, besides that, let's remove every single rule meant to keep him in place. What will happen? He'll win more often. He has a different lgl because he's the abuser of it. That's another rule made specifically for him. Well, he has a variation of the rule. Why does no one else have this? Because he abuses it. Thus, he's the one causing the current problem, nobody else.

If you hadn't noticed, nobody has special rules but HIM. Nobody else. If we remove everything but the IDC(which really isn't his fault, as any stalling is banned, he just happens to have it, so this is a bit different) and all rules related to him. Can we really say he won't cause trouble? That's what people just aren't getting. He breaks stuff under our current ruleset. And we have put rules to nerf him. He finds a way zaround it. The rules aren't the problem, he is. The only way to fix him is either more ridiculous rules, or to hack the game. And we've tried rules, haven't we? We can't hack the game for major tourneys, due to the Nintendo's EULA actually stating that hacking their system is illegal. So that's out. So tell me this then: Are you willing to make more rules for one character? Or just ban them instead? That's what's happening.

It doesn't matter if he has only a few rules. It's pretty much him that is getting special treatment here.(as I said, stalling is an acceptable thing to ban, because it actually makes games longer. Anything else is taking away his options, which is really the only choice to give character diversity. But that's not fair to the players either, now is it?) Every time you say he's not broken, you pretend that he's playing at the same level as the other characters. But he has atleast one rule(that I know of) that really shouldn't exist in the first place(the lgl) that is different from the rest. We are nerfing a character in order to make that one character reasonable to fight against. Whether 1 or more, it's still bad no matter how you look at it.

Now, as I read the current Unity Ruleset... there's 2 Ledge Grab Limits specifically made for him. There's also his stalling tactic banned. Remove the Ledge Grab Limits, and he's going to wreak havoc, which he already does anyway.

Please less arguments using the masses' opinions to justify urself, what I wanna know is ur opinion, not theirs aka not the URC's or the many people's

I'm aware that many people are using extra rules to keep him legal and im interested in knowing why they think that he would be illegal without those rules.

What exactly makes a character legal? Who decided the criterias? Based on what?

Without rules he would win more, whats wrong with that?

He would cause more trouble by doing what? Winning more?

What is wrong with a character abusing a ruleset created by the community with in-game mechanics?

Why the need to nerf him or fix him for the tools he has?

He's the only one that has those special rules? Yea of course since part of the community decided so? But why does that alone stands as justification for these rules?

Whats wrong with stalling when the ruleset has a time limit?

Define "reasonable", "bad", "same level" and "wrecking havoc" in this context.

Explain what's the importance of character diversity in a competitive environment.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please less arguments using the masses' opinions to justify yourself, what I wanna know is ur opinion, not theirs aka not the URC's or the many people's

My opinion? He was horribly made as a character. He's too good in Brawl's environment due to his easy ability to time out people.

I'm aware that many people are using extra rules to keep him legal and im interested in knowing why they think that he would be illegal without those rules.

It's simple: If we have to make more than one rule against a character outside of a very special criteria(banning all stalling, which means it's not just him affected), then there's a problem. He'd be stronger without those rules. The reason he's winning less is because of more rules for him. Plain and simple.(and he's still winning a lot, mind you)

What exactly makes a character legal? Who decided the criterias? Based on what?

Based upon the metagame. If a character is too strong in it, then the character is indeed a problem.

Without rules he would win more, whats wrong with that?

He would cause more trouble by doing what? Winning more?

And how many characters would barely stand a chance? He pretty much demolishes the whole cast at full power. He doesn't when nerfed. That's a problem when there's only one clear cut winner. Multiple characters should be able to win much of the time. That's diversity. MK Dittoes are not.

What is wrong with a character abusing a ruleset created by the community with in-game mechanics?

Why the need to nerf him or fix him for the tools he has?

He's the only one that has those special rules? Yea of course since part of the community decided so? But why does that alone stands as justification for these rules?

And thus he's banned in that specific community. And only in specific tournaments. You're acting like this affects everyone. IT DOESN'T.

Whats wrong with stalling when the ruleset has a time limit?

Stalling is not fighting in a Fighting game. It's not a test of skill we care about. What we care about is the best skill at fighting. Stalling is a horrible thing that should not be allowed in any tournaments.

Define "reasonable", "bad", "same level" and "wrecking havoc" in this context.

Reasonable: To be tolerable enough for everyone to have fun in the environment. He's not.
Bad: Something that isn't good, is not liked. He's obviously not by more than 75% of the community. It doesn't matter who they are or what their reasons are. Players aren't a fan of him.
Same Level: To not be better than everybody else. This isn't a big deal, under the condition he's still near them. But he soars above the entire cast. That's not good at all.
Wreaking Havoc: Being undeniably better than the cast, causing nothing but trouble. Which he's doing.

Explain what's the importance of character diversity in a competitive environment.

*facepalms* If every game is the exact same character, then there was no point in making a game or a tournament with multiple character choices. This isn't like a card game, where people will draw different cards. That's slightly more tolerable. There are 36 or so playable characters. Only having one is just a spit onto the entire game. You might as well not make anybody but Meta Knight selectable, because that's what it'll become at this point. And you're telling me that's perfectly okay?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>_>

I lost it at "stalling shouldn't be allowed in fighting games." Oh, Lord. Really? So it's not kosher for me to run away from people in a game like Marvel if I have the life lead...? Even if it is a viable strategy?

The rest of your post sounds like a helluva lot of parroting on the account of other pro-banners with a little bit more emphasis on the overcentralization aspect of their arguments.

You need to get out to more tourneys, HyperFalcon.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ghostbone]

K so
We don't ban things because they're stalling, we ban them because they break the game or promote degenerate gameplay.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

K so
We don't ban things because they're stalling, we ban them because they break the game or promote degenerate gameplay.

I know this.

*hitches a thumb to HyperFalcon.*

He doesn't. Which is why he should reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy educate himself.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

K so
We don't ban things because they're stalling, we ban them because they break the game or promote degenerate gameplay.

Technically stalling could be called that. And since it does do that... we ban it. And similar things. Makes sense? I don't know who you're replying to, mind you.

 

[Browny]

Lol

'Metaknight doesnt centralise the game'

*sees the MK ban thread the most popular in brawls exitance and FAR more popular than the ENTIRE CAST official matchup thread has ever been*

Keep on dreamin'

 

[Cygnet]

Lol

'Metaknight doesnt centralise the game'

*sees the MK ban thread the most popular in brawls exitance and FAR more popular than the ENTIRE CAST official matchup thread has ever been*

Keep on dreamin'

If there was a banned thread for any character. given it wasn't immediately dismissed as trolling, I'm sure it would be popular.

And the problem here is that there is absolutely no objectivity in most of the claims being thrown around.

EVERYONE AGREES that a character who promotes degenerative gameplay, overcentralizes the metagame, and is generally bad for the metagame and the development of said metagame should be banned. (Well, not EVERYONE, but you know what I mean.)

BUT NO ONE CAN AGREE on what truly is, objectively, "degenerative gameplay." We all have some idea of what it is, but some people are saying that MK is degenerative, some say he isn't, and there's a lot of "proof" on both sides. But if we don't really, formally, objectively know what for sure is degenerative gameplay, then..... both sides are right to themselves and wrong to their opponents - nothing gets done.

Some people think 20% is overcentralization. Some people think it's not.

Some people think he has even MUs. Some don't.

These things need to be operationally defined for anything to mean anything. Until then, neither side will be able to agree on anything because "degenerative gameplay" or "even matchup" means something different to each side.

 

[Ghostbone]

These things need to be operationally defined for anything to mean anything. Until then, neither side will be able to agree on anything because "degenerative gameplay" or "even matchup" means something different to each side.

Unfortunately it's too late to do that now, anyone who thinks MK should be legal will adjust their standards to allow for him, anyone who thinks he isn't will adjust their standards to disallow him.

The smash community wasn't prepared for a potentially banworthy character, and now we're stuck in this mess.
What we can do is learn from our mistakes and set a standard for the next smash, before it comes out.

Technically stalling could be called that. And since it does do that... we ban it. And similar things. Makes sense? I don't know who you're replying to, mind you.

Depends on the type of stalling really. Yes stalling generally does fall under that, but some camping/stalling wouldn't.
I wasn't replying to anyone specific, just making a general statement.

 

[Browny]

Also lol @ people still wasting their time arguing this. Nothing matters until after Apex, after which I maintain my belief that the URC will crumble under the pressure and leave MK legal (current ny/nj PR doesnt do them any favours LOL).

The current rule is no different to any rules that have existed since day 1. Only now the URC has an escape clause if they realise they ****ed up big time since the current rule is nothing more than a placeholder until after Apex, when anything that actually will matter, will happen.

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, I know for a fact almost all of NYC is pro-ban, and if the Concentrate series is any indication, a sizable amount of NJ is, too, so...

Also, for those of you who haven't seen it yet, in response to MikeHAZE's allegations against my monetary data on MK, and the rest of the cast, I present this for you guys to read. It explains that, while the theory set forth by Mike, stating that my data for each character may be inaccurate, may hold some merit, my analysis shows that the numbers I currently have set for MK are extremely likely an UNDERESTIMATION of the money he's truly won from tournament play.

 

[Doc King]

Just for the record, I know for a fact almost all of NYC is pro-ban, and if the Concentrate series is any indication, a sizable amount of NJ is, too, so...

Also, for those of you who haven't seen it yet, in response to MikeHAZE's allegations against my monetary data on MK, and the rest of the cast, I present this for you guys to read. It explains that, while the theory set forth by Mike, stating that my data for each character may be inaccurate, may hold some merit, my analysis shows that the numbers I currently have set for MK are extremely likely an UNDERESTIMATION of the money he's truly won from tournament play.

Another reason as to why mk is broken. It's funny how all of John's charts have mk so above the top and high tier players.

Also Diddy went above Snake at the end.

 

[Judo777]

>_>

I lost it at "stalling shouldn't be allowed in fighting games." Oh, Lord. Really? So it's not kosher for me to run away from people in a game like Marvel if I have the life lead...? Even if it is a viable strategy?

The rest of your post sounds like a helluva lot of parroting on the account of other pro-banners with a little bit more emphasis on the overcentralization aspect of their arguments.

You need to get out to more tourneys, HyperFalcon.

Smooth Criminal

Stalling isn't allowed in almost any fighting game actually.

Running in Marvel isn't stalling partly because running in Marvel is almost impossible to begin with. Really your gonna avoid your opponent the whole game??? When characters like Wolvie, Wesker and Pheonix are top tiers? Even teams that try to runaway until they have enough meter for pheonix just barely make in time to have the necessary meters. And half the time its because the opponent doesn't want to over extend trying to kill someone that ISN'T Pheonix.

And all of the legitmate stalling tactics that Marvel 3 had....... have been patched out. I don't think thats a coincidence.

 

[da K.I.D.]

stalling is very clearly not allowed in fighting games

thats why this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzLILbNCZDk

got insta-perma-banned as soon as the TO saw it.

50 seconds in specifically

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That would be a glitch, KID, that breaks the game and causes somebody to lose complete control of their character. Stalling the match is kind of an aftereffect of that. Same with the Snapback, Peekaboo, and Bionic Manuevers glitches/bugs that were patched out.

That's an entirely different can of worms. I was just strictly talking about evasive tactics that run down the clock in a way conducive to standard play.

Smooth Criminal

 

[DMG]

There is a big difference between stall glitches/bugs and stalling tactics through regular gameplay. MK becoming invisible and invulnerable for example vs Wario circle camping someone on Hyrule.

As for "regular" stalling, it depends on how powerful it is. Wario running circles around people is very strong, but not broken (besides a few stages, which are banned.) MK flying under the stage and planking the edge, now that's a fearful thing.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Depends on the type of stalling really. Yes stalling generally does fall under that, but some camping/stalling wouldn't.
I wasn't replying to anyone specific, just making a general statement.

Well, basically, if it's unbeatable stalling, I'd say ban it. Or near unbeatable. Hyrule Temple and IDC are the banworthy ones. I'm personally not a fan of any unless it serves a purpose. But the whole point is to not go to time as much as possible. You know, shorten tourneys and all. Which makes sense for the Timer in general, but yeah.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea of course, but we don't ban the unbeatable stalling because it's stalling, we ban it because it's unbeatable, it really has nothing to do with the stalling element.

What do you mean the whole point is to not go to time? It's a legitimate win condition.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean that much of the time(heh), our goal is to play out the matches. It's only at 8 minutes so it doesn't take too long.

And I honestly don't consider it one. But eh. Opinions.(note that I do respect it, I just don't agree with it) Regardless, 8 minutes is also fine, as rarely do matches go to time anyway. As pointed out before.

I was always under the impression that stalling itself was a bad tactic and took away from the fighting. Being unbeatable made it much worse.

 

[ShadowLink84]

>_>

I lost it at "stalling shouldn't be allowed in fighting games." Oh, Lord. Really? So it's not kosher for me to run away from people in a game like Marvel if I have the life lead...? Even if it is a viable strategy?

Why are you strawmanning?
That was obviously not his point at all.
There is a clear difference in what he is stating as stalling.

The rest of your post sounds like a helluva lot of parroting on the account of other pro-banners with a little bit more emphasis on the overcentralization aspect of their arguments.

So you expect him to come up with a completely and entirely new point that does not at all sound similar to those who have the same stance?

>_>

Do you not realize how silly this sounds?

You need to get out to more tourneys, HyperFalcon.

Agreed but you're pretty much attacking him completely based upon his background and not based on the content of his post. He's made genuine posts and you've pretty much just written it all off as "parroting" or "look he never has gone to a tournament!"

That would be a glitch, KID, that breaks the game and causes somebody to lose complete control of their character. Stalling the match is kind of an aftereffect of that. Same with the Snapback, Peekaboo, and Bionic Manuevers glitches/bugs that were patched out.

That is a completely irrelevant point.
Stalling is stalling.
Regardless if it is the result of a bug in the programming it is still stalling as it places you in a defense position that allows you to draw out the match indefinitely with no ability for your opponent to stop it in a reasonable manner.
That is stalling.
Doesn't matter if its the quicksilver glitch or Mewtwo's soul glitch or the usage of an infinite to go past 300%.
It is stalling.

That's an entirely different can of worms. I was just strictly talking about evasive tactics that run down the clock in a way conducive to standard play.

You completely ignored the context in which the statement was made for the sake of being able to berate him further.
It wasn't necessary at all and honestly, what is the point of having a discussion if this is what happens most of the time?

 

[Battousai780]

He's made genuine posts and you've pretty much just written it all off as "look he never has gone to a tournament!"

Yeah, you're right. I don't care how good of a point he makes, if he doesn't go to tournies regularly (and it seems he hasn't period) he knows NOTHING about the game and his opinion is insignificant.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why are you strawmanning?
That was obviously not his point at all.
There is a clear difference in what he is stating as stalling.

Late to the party, Shadowlink. As usual. I would also like to point out it's ad hominem. Not strawmanning. Get it right.

Also, no. There wasn't. At least until he amended himself after Ghostbone said that stalling in and of itself isn't bannable.

So you expect him to come up with a completely and entirely new point that does not at all sound similar to those who have the same stance?

>_>

Do you not realize how silly this sounds?

Ab-saw-lutely. I also realize that he thinks it's inherently silly that stalling is a viable strategy in games. But as he says: Opinions (heh).

Agreed but you're pretty much attacking him completely based upon his background and not based on the content of his post. He's made genuine posts and you've pretty much just written it all off as "parroting" or "look he never has gone to a tournament!"

I was just pointing out that he's brought nothing else new to the table and that he's touting this ban as a great victory when he doesn't even know sweet ****-all about this game when it's played at a competitive level. As far as I'm concerned, that does pertain to the content of his posts.

Now that that's out of the way...

How have you been?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, you're right. I don't care how good of a point he makes, if he doesn't go to tournies regularly (and it seems he hasn't period) he knows NOTHING about the game and his opinion is insignificant.

Knowledge of the game's mechanics is not the same thing as being good at or playing the game frequently.

I probably know more about Jigglypuff's mechanics than Ally, but Ally would probably beat me in the ditto.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Knowledge of the game's mechanics is not the same thing as being good at or playing the game frequently.

I probably know more about Jigglypuff's mechanics than Ally, but Ally would probably beat me in the ditto.

I think you'd win, Grim.

'Cause of this post.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ShadowLink84]

Blah you know what, skip the debate.

Now that that's out of the way...

How have you been?

Smooth Criminal

Like the world fell apart and became a jigsaw puzzle.

Yeah, you're right. I don't care how good of a point he makes, if he doesn't go to tournies regularly (and it seems he hasn't period) he knows NOTHING about the game and his opinion is insignificant.

It is a matter of applying those mechanics in a real life situation.
Not going to a single tournament doesn't let you understand the factors involved in live play.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think you'd win, Grim.

'Cause of this post.

Smooth Criminal

<3

You're one of my favourite posters as well, you know

 

[Battousai780]

If you people don't think that being better at the game means understanding it more completely, you have down syndrome. Talking about game mechanics is theory craft, playing the game isn't.

But seriously, you guys are backing a kid who thinks MK should be banned because he's broken though he HAS NEVER FOUGHT A MK IN TOURNEY.


wow

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm not backing anyone.

I'm correcting ignorance.

 

[Ghostbone]

That is a completely irrelevant point.
Stalling is stalling.
Regardless if it is the result of a bug in the programming it is still stalling as it places you in a defense position that allows you to draw out the match indefinitely with no ability for your opponent to stop it in a reasonable manner.
That is stalling.
Doesn't matter if its the quicksilver glitch or Mewtwo's soul glitch or the usage of an infinite to go past 300%.
It is stalling.

You know what's also stalling? Holding someone in a grab for a bit then throwing them.

Different definitions of stalling, and that's why it's ******** to say stalling should always be banned, since it's only broken stalling that should be banned.
And that broken stalling falls under other ban criteria anyway.

 

[Battousai780]

And don't comment on any of the rest of my post. It's cool, I have better things to do than troll this thread for the millionth time.