Melee will lose steam eventually. Its just a matter of time.

[Zone]

Truth is: It's actually the Melee players that can't accept that their game is busted. Wavedashing is an exploit where it breaks the fundamental grounds of the concept of zoning, but that's not what breaks the game; Dash Dancing is what makes the game broken. With Dash Dancing you almost never have to commit to anything. Such grounds does not exist and any other fighter.

This right here is you IMO voiding everything else in your post. By attacking Melee players in the same post in which you attack someone for attacking brawl. His elitism is in fact ridiculous. And "enjoyment" is in fact subjective, but I think it's quite possible to objectively argue that Melee has more depth and options.

Anyways, You have no idea what dash dancing is if you think you NEVER have to commit. you know what happens when you keep creating space to someone who slips in and out of your reach? you lose ground. So by not approaching you are committed to lose space. There is commitment you're being blind to it.

And wave-dashing is a zoning tool most of the time.... what in the world are you talking about.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The notion of #OneUnit is a complete joke

Best part of your post, too bad the rest wasn't quite up to snuff. At a bare minimum, we need to stop lying to ourselves and pretending this is true, it's better to be honest and address that people don't/can't get along.

 

[MookieRah]

@ Karaoke Man : Before I address issues regarding the whole of your post, I first have to contest a statement you made regarding the melee engine.

Wavedashing is an exploit where it breaks the fundamental grounds of the concept of zoning, but that's not what breaks the game; Dash Dancing is what makes the game broken. With Dash Dancing you almost never have to commit to anything. Such grounds does not exist and any other fighter.

Ummm, footsies. Wavedashing and dash dancing is footsies on steroids, but they are, in fact, footsies. It isn't an unprecedented concept that doesn't exist in any other game. It is just a part of zoning in melee, and it clearly doesn't break the game. In fact, Falco, Peach, Sheik, and Puff don't have great dash dance games. Hell, Peach, Sheik, and Puff have fairly poor wavedash games too in comparison the rest of the cast. If this was something so game breaking, then these characters would not be able to function or compete in the current environment.

You mention in your post about confusing subjectivity with objectivity. I would make the same argument regarding your opinion on movement options in melee.

Now, to the real meat of your argument:
Your first paragraph is spot on, after that I have no idea where you are going with all of this. After that the very mindset that you just expressed that partially put Brawl in the position where it is today.

Why is that? Because you, like others in this thread have before you, blame everything on the melee community. You take no time or effort to see inward and only blame melee for all the problems. This won't change anything. Telling melee players that "melee is broken" is no better than saying that "brawl sucks". Just because you attempt to validate your subjective viewpoint and other people don't doesn't make you right, nor does it put you in any position to attempt to police their attitude.

Also, while it's dumb that people say dumb stuff about Brawl... How is that an opinion they are not allowed to have? Have you considered that they just don't like the game, the mechanics, the feel, the art direction, etc? Also, have you considered that melee players are often engaged by brawl fans asking them why they hate Brawl so much to the point that they are simply tired of the discussion and simply state "it sucks?"

You don't have to get every melee fan to say that Brawl is a good game for the hate to subside. That simply won't happen. You also have to take age and maturity into account. Most of the people who are problems are likely younger and are quick to form strong opinions based on nothing whatsoever. Just let it go, calm down, and don't let a negative opinion bother you. The real problem lies in the people who are picking fights, using slurs or hateful speech towards the communities and or players, etc. If both side focussed on eliminating this then maybe we'd get somewhere, but the constant bickering and finger pointing isn't helping.

 

[LiteralGrill]

but the constant bickering and finger pointing isn't helping.

This is very true, and unfortunately smash 4 is bringing all of this back up again. If you look at the smash 4 forums half of the threads are ending up as this tired debate again as it is related to smash 4. Even worse we've started the brand new 3DS vs Wii U as well. It'd be great if more people could just calm down and learn from this history instead of repeating it.

 

[Jebu-95]

LOL@ all the butthurt brawl fanboys trolling. Mad because you're game lasted 5 years and is gonna be completely forgotten when smash 4 comes out?

Melee is growing and continues to grow. Not die off, not stagnate, but actually GROW. I see new people at local tournaments all the time. There are even hundreds if not thousands of people that play the game casually, as a party game at home, or play 1-p uploading vids to youtube etc.

Melee is a good game. Short of a few minor changes, it is essentially a perfect game. Look at Doom. Quality games last, and their ****ty ripoffs die. Cry more.

For me, it's more like I'm amazingly thankful for the past 5 years (3 in my case 'cause I came in "late") that the game lasted.

During these 3 years I've met plenty of extraordinarily cool people - both Brawl and Melee players (hi Novi) as well as people that just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The game has also given me a good excuse to travel around my country as well to different countries and continents (Apex 2014 <3). It has also been an interesting experience to see smashers grow as people.

If Brawl does come to an end, as it seems to, then so be it. These 3 years have been more than what I could've EVER asked from a glitchy game intended for children on the Nintendo Wii. I might forget Brawl, but I certainly wont forget the impact the community, the adventures and the experience as a whole has had on me. Just like a certain old man on Jamaica Station in New York on that snowy day in January told me, after I told him that I only had one day left in New York: "You'll have to make the most out of it, as the best things last the shortest".

I have no clue what will happen once Smash 4 comes out. If the ride is going to be even half as fun as the last 3 years, I'm definitely in. Can't judge a book by its cover.

Oh and I love Melee too.

 

[Karaoke Man]

@ Karaoke Man : Before I address issues regarding the whole of your post, I first have to contest a statement you made regarding the melee engine.

Ummm, footsies. Wavedashing and dash dancing is footsies on steroids, but they are, in fact, footsies. It isn't an unprecedented concept that doesn't exist in any other game. It is just a part of zoning in melee, and it clearly doesn't break the game. In fact, Falco, Peach, Sheik, and Puff don't have great dash dance games. Hell, Peach, Sheik, and Puff have fairly poor wavedash games too in comparison the rest of the cast. If this was something so game breaking, then these characters would not be able to function or compete in the current environment.

You mention in your post about confusing subjectivity with objectivity. I would make the same argument regarding your opinion on movement options in melee.

Now, to the real meat of your argument:
Your first paragraph is spot on, after that I have no idea where you are going with all of this. After that the very mindset that you just expressed that partially put Brawl in the position where it is today.

Why is that? Because you, like others in this thread have before you, blame everything on the melee community. You take no time or effort to see inward and only blame melee for all the problems. This won't change anything. Telling melee players that "melee is broken" is no better than saying that "brawl sucks". Just because you attempt to validate your subjective viewpoint and other people don't doesn't make you right, nor does it put you in any position to attempt to police their attitude.

Also, while it's dumb that people say dumb stuff about Brawl... How is that an opinion they are not allowed to have? Have you considered that they just don't like the game, the mechanics, the feel, the art direction, etc? Also, have you considered that melee players are often engaged by brawl fans asking them why they hate Brawl so much to the point that they are simply tired of the discussion and simply state "it sucks?"

You don't have to get every melee fan to say that Brawl is a good game for the hate to subside. That simply won't happen. You also have to take age and maturity into account. Most of the people who are problems are likely younger and are quick to form strong opinions based on nothing whatsoever. Just let it go, calm down, and don't let a negative opinion bother you. The real problem lies in the people who are picking fights, using slurs or hateful speech towards the communities and or players, etc. If both side focussed on eliminating this then maybe we'd get somewhere, but the constant bickering and finger pointing isn't helping.

Well, 1st I apologize if I let my frustration get ahead of myself a little bit.

I'm didn't blame Melee by itself if you look closely. I did say that Brawl definitely has it's issues within itself most definitely. I was just saying that Melee was part of the problem.

No on is saying that they can't have an opinion. They have the right to express it, that's fine. However there's a difference between expressing your opinion and going out of your way to bash what don't you like for no reason. That's just pure ignorance. I'm not trying to understand why they don't like Brawl because I already do understand; what I don't understand is why they keep bashing on a game that's fundamentally, from the very core of it, never going to change. Brawl is always going to be Brawl just like Melee is always going to be Melee. So when they say stuff like "It sucks", it's again labelling subjectivty as objectivity as if their opinion is the only one in the universe that matters and it most certainly isn't. Humility is what is lacking there, and it's definitely not from me.

I'm not even trying to finger-point honestly, I'm tryin' to pin-point towards the root of the problem(s). Part of the problem is that a lot of these players are NOT young. In fact, majority of them are even older than me (I'm 21). That kind of immaturity is what will lead to the downfall of a lot of things if it doesn't cease. I'm not trying to sound hateful or anything. I'm much like anyone else here; just trying to help the Community of the game we all love. So no, I'm not outright blaming the Melee Community, the Melee Community just happens to be a very vast part of the problem. Yet, everyone is just supposed to "let it go" and do absolutely nothing about it. but again, I do not disregard that Brawl players have a buttload of their own problems to solve.

Also, when I said "Melee is broken", I am using that term loosely; what I meant was that a lot of the techs aside from L-Cancelling weren't intended to be in the game. So when people who pre-dominantly complain about Smash 4 (Melee players) about how it's "Brawl 2.0" or that it's already a "bad game" eons before it even comes out, they're not considering that:

1.) What do you think Melee would be like with no L-cancelling, Wavedashing or any of those other techs? You guessed it; It'd literally be just a faster Smash 4.
2.) They haven't even played the game yet. Even if it didn't have all the techs, all the Smash games would be more or less the same in terms the mechancs, but the differences between the games is what makes them their own unique games. The engine being one of the things determining the differences.

All in all, people who actively go out of their way to hate Brawl just need to accept that Brawl just isn't Melee. It's not the sequel they were looking forward to and it never will be. Much like Smash 4 won't be either. Same case for Brawl.


:edit:

Also, BO/\K you don't see the issue apparently. Because I am more than willing to bet that you are one of the very first people that will complain about how there's no "dash dancing" or whatever other tech there is in Smash 4. If it's not that big of a deal, why is it so frequently complained about then?

Zipzo, it has everything to do with all of this; It's the mentality of some of these players that needs to change. I'm just giving the examples of how it works from outside the box. Without that mentality, people won't feel like they're being condescended or ragged on all the time. People are very aware of this issue, but none but a small percentage of people are doing anything about it.

Zone, I said that you almost never have to commit. "Almost" representing basically everything you just said. I don't see Street Fighter having this tool, Nor King of Fighters, or Capcom vs SNK or w/e branch of 2-D fighters there. Wavedashing is a zoning tool used to give characters an additional and albeit artificial way of spacing and imo takes away from the creativity of your zoning with the very own attributes of your character. Also, don't put words in my mouth; I was not attacking Melee players. Again, I was elaborating on a common problem. Realism=/= Elitism. I don't recall condescending on anyone.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

I doubt smash 4 will kill melee for the simple reason that the competitive players who play melee are not content with it. I do think it will kill Brawl or at least damage it because most people who play brawl now will most likely switch to smash 4. It's like Brawl, and those who just want to play a new installment will get fulfillment. Melee players are not going to switch over to smash 4 that easily. In terms of the casual audience, Melee will lose publicity of course, but that's pretty much guarantied. I don't find any reason to believe the Melee scene will end so early however.

 

[Mahie]

@ Karaoke Man : People just walk back and forth in other fighting games and it accomplishes the same thing as dash dancing. It's not as fast and exciting but it's the same concept. In order to remain perfectly safe you will need to react to threatening movement and pokes and back-dash and lose ground, eventually you're cornered and it's not the same situation at all and dash dancing won't save you.

If you don't back-dash and keep a perfectly safe distance, then your dash dance isn't achieving anything, it becomes a mix up and not an anti-commit type of movement.

--> Movement is faster but that goes for both characters. The purpose and goal is still the same, remain right out of range (distance*start-up-time), punish if something comes out. Nothing comes out, you retreat and keep the same distance where you can punish everything while being safe.

tl;dr footsies.

As for Wavedashing it IS character specific and depends on the very own attributes of your character. It's also a wonderful tool because it allows you to land on platforms fast, and get out of your shield fast.

Those two are the more interesting aspects, much more so than using it from a pure ground-based-movement perspective.

It's the reason why I play Fox in SSB64, simply because he has a pseudo-waveland in his shine-landing, and coming from a Melee background it just feels too good to be able to land with that amount of control.

 

[LovinMitts]

Well this sure spun out of control. Any way to request that this be locked?

 

[R0Y]

Give into the dark side.

Let the compromise flow forth.

 

[Divine Fist]

This whole thread is a joke. Melee is still growing after 13 years.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Well this sure spun out of control. Any way to request that this be locked?

Why lock it? It's an interesting discussion.

 

[Fabio the Great]

But larger tournaments like MLG or EVO likely won't support it due to copyright concerns. (If in fact what you are reffering to is along the lines of USB loading Melee)

Nintendo os sponsoring evo, they are on board to support their competitive community it seems, we made it

 

[Celestis]

The new Smash 4 Gamecube controllers will work on the Gamecube, least I would expect them to. So we still have new controllers incoming.

 

[otter]

1.) What do you think Melee would be like with no L-cancelling, Wavedashing or any of those other techs? You guessed it; It'd literally be just a faster Smash 4.

even if that was true, it's not very encouraging.

 

[AquaTech]

I'm someone who's completely new to the competitive Melee scene. Yet I'm watching old/new videos, working on techs, finding a local community to play against, and learning characters.

 

[oukd]

so im totally not reading this whole thread

but! to address OP, hardware is not the biggest issue

- wii homebrew + disc image + upscaling device (like the $15 sewell thing) + low-input-lag hd screen
- iso + dolphin will always be a thing (even if it feels horrible to me, lag-wise its still good) and also alleviates controller issue

so theres that.
and i dont see those setups losing accessibility anytime soon (especially the 2nd one)
however i DEFINITELY dont see people running tourneys with dolphin setups. that sounds awful

someone probably already addressed the above stuff...onto the more interesting discussion

im personally not convinced that melees engine and design is SOOO good that itll like, somehow transcend its status as "pretty sick competitive game" to "classic competitive game of the ages" (like...chess or something idk)

however, im adamant itll last for as long as there exists a community that actually cares to grow itself. and most of us care a lot (at least for now)

obviously theres a few limiting factors to this
1. metagame reaches a dead end somehow (lol not happening btw. game might be busted but no one is that ****ing good)
1a. metagame stales to a point where it becomes boring as a spectator esport (a little more likely i guess)
2. a very similar and much more accessible replacement game (i can see this happening from someone in the community)
3. nintendo lays down the law (we'll see what happens next year with sm4sh and melee lmao) (also possible with homebrewing)
4. some kind of global catastrophe
5. probably some more stuff iono feel free to continue this list

i dont see myself quitting this game personally, **** is too good. but we'll see
i think a lot of people share this sentiment over melee

 

[BO/\K]

@ oukd not chess, but Melee definitely has the quality to be a classic competitive game on the level of Brood War or Super Turbo. Those games have been around forever by video game standards.

 

[Divine Fist]

1. metagame reaches a dead end somehow (lol not happening btw. game might be busted but no one is that ****ing good)

Good point. And aMSa and Axe are living proof that we're not even close to the threshold. Hell, even Armada beating everyone with Peach is evidence that 20XX is kinda bull.

 

[oukd]

yea no doubts about that @BO/\K

 

[Sliq]

My main gripe with Brawl gameplay wise is after playing Melee, Brawl just feels clumsy.

My problem with the a Brawl community is that a lot of them are woefully ignorant about Melee's competitive scene because they were never a part of it. They throw out buzzwords like "wave dashing" the same way dip**** political pundits throw out words like "liberals" or "conservatives," acting like these words are inherently slurs.

You never played Melee competitively, so don't pretend you got if all figured out when you claim Melee's just mindlessly spamming moves and dash dancing all over the place. You're a rube.

I played Melee competitively for 3 years and a Brawl for two, something a lot of ****ing people can't say. My goddamn opinion has been formed through experience, not parroting the talking points of other clueless jabronis as they pat each other on the back for liking a game better than an other one they never even goddamn played.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just my thoughts on the Brawl vs. Melee garbage that doesn't ****ing matter in the least.

There's a ****ing war going on in the goddamn Ukraine for ****s sake seriously with this ****.

 

[lygraf]

referring to OP, just bought GC unit, 3 nintendo controllers (1 black, 2 two-tone clear/purple) and melee for a total of around 120. not too damn bad at all

melee's still growing, im an old man now i have money and ****

 

[MookieRah]

referring to OP, just bought GC unit, 3 nintendo controllers (1 black, 2 two-tone clear/purple) and melee for a total of around 120. not too damn bad at all

melee's still growing, im an old man now i have money and ****

Hey now, you aren't an old man on these forums until you have kids. Then **** gets real.

 

[otter]

You never played Melee competitively, so don't pretend you got if all figured out when you claim Melee's just mindlessly spamming moves and dash dancing all over the place. You're a rube.

I played Melee competitively for 3 years and a Brawl for two, something a lot of ****ing people can't say. My goddamn opinion has been formed through experience, not parroting the talking points of other clueless jabronis as they pat each other on the back for liking a game better than an other one they never even goddamn played

I've never understood this either. How can Brawl players expect to survive that conversation when their missing half of the information? How many people played melee AND THEN loved brawl? 4 or 5?

How is that not the end of the conversation?

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

I've never understood this either. How can Brawl players expect to survive that conversation when their missing half of the information? How many people played melee AND THEN loved brawl? 4 or 5?

How is that not the end of the conversation?

You don't necessarily need to love Brawl. I mean, I played Brawl competitively but couldn't get into it, but it doesn't mean my opinion on it is invalid simply because I didn't like it.

 

[Renji64]

Melee could lose steam at somepoint but it will never die due to how much it sets it's self apart from the other smash entires and the is the sharpest in the series which is what sakurai said. I'll still play it but not as my main game due to i main dk and it is kinda pointless at times.

 

[DavingTheWorld]

I think it can grow tiring playing the same game against the same people you see at tournaments over and over again. But that's just me.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Dolphin emulator is on the rise, and as Melee gets more and more expensive, Dolphin gets better and better at emulating the GameCube. I was listening to a Pat the NES Punk podcast where Pat and Ian are discussing how the GameCube controller was spread over three systems: the GameCube, the Wii, and the Wii U. Fortunately, Nintendo foresaw the Smash community's love for the GameCube and released more GameCube controllers into the wild for us to use. But that's not all.

If Nintendo released the GameCube controller again to satisfy the professional community, and they sponsored EVO, and held a tournament and invited the Melee greats to play, what else will they do? Release Melee on the Virtual Console? Remake it the same way they did with Mario All-Stars, just slap the ISO on a disc and call it good? Yes! They just might. We may be running out of GameCubes and discs of Melee, but we have our controllers, we'll have our game, we'll have exactly what we want to play Melee until Half Life 3 comes out.

But once Half Life 3 is released... craaaaap.

 

[-ACE-]

This thread will lose steam eventually. Its just a matter of time.

 

[VillagerComesToTown]

Melee was a good game and all, but that game already lost steam for me.

 

[The Phenom]

This thread will lose steam eventually. Its just a matter of time.

^Thats unfortunate :\
---------
CLASS OF 2009!!!™

 

[TheGoat]

I want you to take a step back, take a breather, and then realize....

It's the very mindset that you just expressed that partially put Brawl in the position where it is today.

Melee became much more popular because of the documentary, true. When Brawl players almost selflessly and graciously lent Melee the support they needed to be played at EVO 2013 or MLG, what happened? They turned around and they spat in our face. Brawl players do have their issues, but the unecessary, condescending elitism that you just demonstrated makes our problems worse than what they already are.

The issue here is that you are confusing subjectivty with objectivity; You are basing your opinion of "Brawl is a "bad" game" as if it was an actual fact, and it isn't. You even went as far as to say it's a "perfect" game....? Exactly how arrogant does one have to be to view something that's "perfect" and something else so horrible that it could even cause cancer? Truth is: It's actually the Melee players that can't accept that their game is busted. Wavedashing is an exploit where it breaks the fundamental grounds of the concept of zoning, but that's not what breaks the game; Dash Dancing is what makes the game broken. With Dash Dancing you almost never have to commit to anything. Such grounds does not exist and any other fighter.

That kind of mindset is a what will end Melee in due time, surely enough. Which is a shame because I actually like Melee as I do all of the Smash games, but you don't care about the players, or enjoyment of the game; you just care about the competition, which to a point is fine, but worst of all, the money you get from it. This mindset doesn't care what it has to do to get what it wants; even if that means throwing people like your friends/comrades under a RTA bus. That's also another thing.

The notion of #OneUnit is a complete joke

I'm not even talking about just Melee players, but Smash players in general. The only way in which it would apply is for the common love for Smash, but Melee players (mainly) have made it perfectly clear that they want nothing more than the destruction of just about anything Smash related that's not Melee. I hear people say all the time that the "Smash Community is a "family" " and I'm sorry, but that's just a bold-faced lie and you all know it too. Why is it a bold faced lie? Because this is a Community that was and still is built on a foundation of acquaitanceship. Most of you think that even possibly your closest "friends" are your friends, but often times they're probably not. Not to say that they AREN'T your friend as it's possible that it may or may not be the case, but everyone is confusing acquaintanceship with friendship. Don't fall for that garbage, they are NOT the same.

Putting on that "face" and telling people that lie that we are all "family" so that you can not only get what you personally want, but to rob people of the values and honesty they're trying to achieve is practically a villainous move.

Melee is getting and still is very popular, but never forget to give credit where it's due.

 

[TheGoat]

delete, sorry

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

The real question is this: which game has the better history of attracting professional players? Brawl basically was killed off when PM was released, and Melee is still very strong, perhaps even stronger now than it was a few years ago. If a game can't keep people playing, what good is it?

 

[otter]

The real question is this: which game has the better history of attracting professional players? Brawl basically was killed off when PM was released, and Melee is still very strong, perhaps even stronger now than it was a few years ago. If a game can't keep people playing, what good is it?

There is a big demographic of people, the majority, that think advertizing and developer support is what makes the game worth playing. They aren't concerned with, or know how to distinguish, the actual quality of a game. There are several people in this thread that call Melee outdated or obsolete even though the meta is still evolving more than Brawl. Their only definition of what's "up to date" is what advertisers tell them.

That's why it's so special that Melee is doing still doing well.

 

[IceyBeef]

Ya its gonna be "alive" for a few more years. Be honest melee will die out and its gonna be 20xx with only fox and everyone will transfer to smash 4. I just know it though, hopefully something huge happens with melee and we get major representation and get like those things cod players play in in finals. Sorry for bad grammer m8

 

[Nicco]

PM is an amazing fighting game, but not even PM gets close to killing Melee. Why would Brawl 2 kill Melee?

 

[Nicco]

Also, why do people think that Melee will die because of the whole 20XX thing. EVO 2014 top 8 featured pikachu, ICs, sheik, marth and puff. Even IF 90% of smashers will play fox/falco so what? Fox dittos are mad hype, falco dittos are even more hype and Fox/Falco is propably the hypest matchup in the game. Would you rather see Puff vs Samus? Kirby vs Game n Watch? Bowser camping the ledge for 8 minutes? The game may be unbalanced, but the high tier characters are alot more fun to watch, than the low tier characters with a few exceptions of course.

 

[Combo Blaze]

How the **** do people think anything is going to kill this off anytime soon?
Even SSB64 is still alive. Melee isn't going anywhere.

 

[Mr. Jam]

Are you guys joking me?!?! It's not hard at all to find a copy of ssbm. Unless your buying it off of overpriced sights like ebay. Go on craigslist and look around, find a copy for like 10. It's the same with controllers, 30 dollars is crap. Go to a flea market you could buy a GameCube for like 20 dollars with 3 controllers. Online will never be the only option, sometimes you just gotta look around then.