Melee will lose steam eventually. Its just a matter of time.

[Deleted member 245254]

You completely missed my point, when people feel as though they are at a disadvantage they don't whimper and pout and cry about how unfair the game is, instead they look deep into the game for mechanics they can exploit to bring their character up to snuff with the meta of the game, for example fox isn't a broken character -- he just happened to have a skill set that was/is synchronized with the metagame better than any other character. That's why the phenomena of "fox killers" came and changed the meta to heighten the negative aspects of fox's skillset, and diminish the positives (I mean how long had it been since a fox had won a major before MLG?).

You may call this imbalanced, however this is going to happen no matter what the metagame is -- there will always be a character who is more developed or more adept at performing a task at a point in time. The "balance" you want is impossible because you aren't taking into account INDIVIDUAL advancement of each character. That is main reason you will never see a game with 12+ characters where all of them are viable -- they all have to advance independently, and in the context of the current metagame. It's not that melee isn't balanced, just that currently the game is played in a way that favors characters with move sets that allow them to play a certain style.

Are you saying you would be against balance updates for Smash melee if it were possible?

 

[The_Burn]

Are you saying you would be against balance updates for Smash melee if it were possible?

yes, it's a game both casuals and competitive players love to play in its current state. What more could you hope to achieve?

We already have a game (PM) that is constantly updated for balance so a niche for people like you has been filled meanwhile people who want a game that they can explore without risk of a game shattering patch can continue to play melee. (Note: this isn't intended to be a criticism towards PM, just pointing out one of the differences between the two games)

 

[Cassio]

Again, you are letting the vocal minority of a group dictate your outlook on the majority of the melee fan base. From what you have said so far it seems like you are of the attitude that a pro-melee player is guilty of this stereotype until they are proven innocent.

It's also a bad thing that both groups segregate themselves and fester hate. This festering explodes in threads like this. Then the most passionate members of each group come out in force to defend or attack the other side, perpetuating the stereotypes that are already in place.

I'm not making an assumption, this is from direct or at worst one degree of indirect information. Majority or not its influential, and I dont even want to be specific right now because some are friends or otherwise respectable people. Some even act this way towards PM which you used as an example earlier. I'm not trying to argue, Im explaining the reality I've seen. Anyways, the point isnt to say how bad things are, the point is there is a problem requiring things to change, and it doesnt help to sweep it under the rug and pretend its not there.

This is something that, as a pro-melee player, annoys me to no end. By making this statement you are claiming the morale high ground and stating that your side is better because your dislike of the opposing side is somehow more justified. You are essentially blaming the problem on the melee players, which completely ignores the history of why this community was divided by Brawl. No side is "better", and neither side has a good reason to hate the other, and neither side has a morale high ground.

If you truly want the hate to go away you have to realise this. There is nothing wrong with defending Brawl from melee haters, but you won't change anyone's opinions by implying the blame falls on the opposite side in your arguments.

This isnt about Melee vs Brawl and I dont care about the moral high ground here, I dont agree with any bashing. But if brawl scene getting upset at melee players is really an issue the quickest and simplest way to end it is for the melee scene to stop bashing on the non melee games.

 

[The_Burn]

This isnt about Melee vs Brawl and I dont care about the moral high ground here, I dont agree with any bashing. But if brawl scene getting upset at melee players is really an issue the quickest and simplest way to end it is for the melee scene to stop bashing on the non melee games.

The phrase "It takes two to tango" feels EXTREMELY fitting right now

 

[Deleted member 245254]

The phrase "It takes two to tango" feels EXTREMELY fitting right now

Please don't act like Brawl players arbitrarily began outwardly hating Melee first.

 

[The_Burn]

Please don't act like Brawl players arbitrarily began outwardly hating Melee first.

And the saying "An eye for an eye makes everyone blind" seems fitting here

(also I feel bad for all these stupid +1 posts I'm making, but I can't think of a better way to go about this)

 

[Cassio]

The phrase "It takes two to tango" feels EXTREMELY fitting right now

I agree overall, dont think its right for anyone to bash. My main point is if people stopped hating on the melee scene but melee kept bashing other games wed end up back where we are. But in regards to this specifically if melee stopped hating on other games things would probably calm down.

 

[The_Burn]

I agree overall, dont think its right for anyone to bash. My main point is if people stopped hating on the melee scene but melee kept bashing other games wed end up back where we are. But if melee stopped hating on other games things would probably calm down.

Please stop grouping the entire melee community into your judgement of the "vocal minority". My control over what fans of melee say about other games is about the same as my control over the politics in my country, just as you are not going to be able to get negative Brawlers to stop spouting their hate.

At the end of the day someone somewhere is going to bash the things you like. It's a mark of maturity to look past this and enjoy what you enjoy all the same.

 

[Cassio]

Please stop grouping the entire melee community into your judgement of the "vocal minority". My control over what fans of melee say about other games is about the same as my control over the politics in my country, just as you are not going to be able to get negative Brawlers to stop spouting their hate.

At the end of the day someone somewhere is going to bash the things you like. It's a mark of maturity to look past this and enjoy what you enjoy all the same.

Obviously its not everyone. But trying to push it as a vocal minority doesnt mean much, especially with nothing convincing aside from your opinion. And people can do a lot to change the attitude of their peers, if you choose not to try thats your choice.

I agree its important to be the bigger person, however trying to pretend it doesnt cause issues in the community is a problem.

 

[The_Burn]

Obviously its not everyone. But trying to push it as a vocal minority doesnt mean much, especially with nothing convincing aside from your opinion. And people can do a lot to change the attitude of their peers, if you choose not to try thats your choice.

I agree its important to be the bigger person, however trying to pretend it doesnt cause issues in the community is a problem.

Fine if you want to ignore my points and assert the same thing you have asserted over and over there is no more point to this discussion.

 

[MookieRah]

But trying to push it as a vocal minority doesnt mean much, especially with nothing convincing aside from your opinion.

You've shown no evidence to contradict what we've said on this. You are just saying that our points are irrelevant because you think otherwise. Considering the fact that there is a very large portion of smashers that don't regularly post on the smashboards, it's crazy to assume it's anything other than a vocal minority.

Also one should take note that the human brain is quicker to remember things that we consider "bad" than what we like. So going by your feelings is a very poor indication that the majority of melee players are jerks/entitled/whatever bad thing you claim.

 

[Renth]

Melees been dead plenty of times we're still here.

/thread

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

What is dead may never die.

 

[Xmark]

Even if melee dies out of the competitive scene i'm sure there will be the people who made the smash doc make another doc and keep it alive in our hearts

 

[Thor]

You are in no way better than this guy if you say stuff like that, you know?
Also, the claim you are making is that the only reason Melee is still here is because of the super-hardcore fanboys. That isn't accurate, and the reason why that isn't the case can be seen in most other games that move onto the newest game in a series. There was a hardcore fanbase of Halo that disliked Halo 2, but the hardcore Halo community died shortly after. There are several other examples of this in competitive gaming as well.
When you make statements like the above are ignoring the fact that the main reason Melee is still played to this day is because it is a really, really good game.

I heavily disagree with your word choice

I don’t think I’m “better” than them in the first place – I like more games than they do, but that’s about it – he can like what he wants. It's not an insult [or at least I never thought it was], it's a word that conveys exactly what I want it to: Someone who loves Melee and hates/dislikes everything that's not Melee.

And besides, to anyone who doesn’t play much, I AM a ******** XD [been called it a few different times in school, and since we had to play FFAs since people were lame, I [vocally] preferred Melee to Brawl because it’s somewhat harder to camp or run away when it’s down to one v one]. I just happen to like Brawl too. So if the term is offensive, I guess I should’ve been offended when they called me that, but I simply laughed [and agreed].

Questionable word choice? At least you didn't infract me, unlike what happened to the poor sap David Howard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_"*****rdly"

EDIT: XD They censored the URL XD

But more on topic, Melee's not going anywhere anytime soon - both the die-hards [I guess a more PC term] and the people who just love the game will play it.

Also MookieRah, my point wasn't that the ONLY reason Melee is still here is because of the super-hardcore fanboys - my point was that the claim is on-face absurd because of the super-hardcore fanboys, and plenty of others will play the game because it's a good game (as are all Smash games). But the super-hardcore fanboys mean that Melee won't die out anytime soon [and the super pros like Mango, Hbox, etc. will probably play both or still only Melee] so the scene will be fine.

People irritated that Melee people hate on Brawl when Brawl’s already not in a great spot should stop contributing to ideas like this – the OP’s ideas actually weren’t that bad, but they should’ve done some research first, since controller prices are not going up ($40’s kinda high but Nintendo’s making new ones for $30 that can be used with Smash 4 so the investment for many is comparatively more worth it) and Melee disks are not cheap but usually well-taken care of, so they last (And you can often get a disk cleaned and buffed even if there is a scratch or two). Contributing just makes Melee players who already don't like Brawl more vocal and does nothing to endear people who are only really a part of the Melee community to Brawl.

P.S.: I’m surprised they censor the word "Meleefags" [******** + s] but not "********". Someone should probably fix that inconsistency.

 

[noran san]

You don't make any sense at all.

Balance and skill caps/skill floors are mutually exclusive concepts. If anything, lack of balance can really only be compared to a heightened skill floor for only CERTAIN players who happen to play characters on the fortunate side of that balance.

People don't like melee because it's imbalanced. They like it because it's a fighting game of incredible depth of mechanics and it's a bunch of Nintendo characters beating each other up. I'd really like you to quote for me anywhere where someone states that imbalance is a good thing in Smash. Preposterous.

You completely missed my point, when people feel as though they are at a disadvantage they don't whimper and pout and cry about how unfair the game is, instead they look deep into the game for mechanics they can exploit to bring their character up to snuff with the meta of the game, for example fox isn't a broken character -- he just happened to have a skill set that was/is synchronized with the metagame better than any other character. That's why the phenomena of "fox killers" came and changed the meta to heighten the negative aspects of fox's skillset, and diminish the positives (I mean how long had it been since a fox had won a major before MLG?).

You may call this imbalanced, however this is going to happen no matter what the metagame is -- there will always be a character who is more developed or more adept at performing a task at a point in time. The "balance" you want is impossible because you aren't taking into account INDIVIDUAL advancement of each character. That is main reason you will never see a game with 12+ characters where all of them are viable -- they all have to advance independently, and in the context of the current metagame. It's not that melee isn't balanced, just that currently the game is played in a way that favors characters with move sets that allow them to play a certain style.

Of course it's going to lose "steam" i really can't imagine these guys plying into their 40's and onward lol. On a side note competitive imbalance is the point of these FPS, MOBA's, fighting games etc.. its bring innovation and creativity where you will honestly see the same strategy for years based on what one player implements, its pretty interesting to watch.

 

[Problem2]

Running out of Melee discs could be a problem that is solved depending on how Nintendo handles the inevitable VC release. I don't know if Melee will actually be released on Wii U this gen, but whether it comes out now or next gen, I am confident that Melee will eventually be re-released as a retro title.

The problem will be the controller. Wii U is confirmed to have GCN adapters, so that is good news if they implement a GCN VC for Wii U, but if it doesn't happen until next gen, then we might be under the mercy of the new controller (ie the controller doesn't allow light shielding, the community splits because some want GCN and some want the new controller).

It's a lot of speculation, but this is basically what this entire thread is about. We're speculating if Melee has what it takes to survive another generation of Smash Bros. I think it does because the scene has grown tighter since Brawl's release, even if Smash 4 turns out to be much more accepted by the entire community than Brawl.

But here is the real reason that Melee is different from any other old fighting game. Brawl let a lot of people down, but in a way, it accidentally gave Melee an opportunity most fighting games don't get once a sequel is released. It gave Melee and opportunity to live by Brawl not being appealing enough to the entire community. If Brawl was changed just slightly to be better received, it might of had enough power to kill off Melee forever, but it didn't happen. The big reason people jump ship to a sequel, even if the sequel is disliked, is because the players don't have faith in a scene sticking around for the older game. Melee has already rewarded the faith of those who chose to stick with Melee. We now know that it is possible to stick with Melee if we want to, and that knowledge and faith is what can give Melee fans the rare opportunity to play an older game in spite of sequels that keep coming out.

The only game that can match this special condition is Super Street Fighter II Turbo, which is stilled played a bit to this day. Even then, I don't think Turbo gets THIS much attention and play. I believe at worst, Melee will become the next Super Turbo, and the community could shrink, but as far as dying out, it will never happen.

 

[Twitchy]

I wouldn't say it's on its last legs when there's no shortage of people to play with and against at all skill levels
also that nerf was just reverted

I wrote that post before the nerf was reverted, and for the record I am extremely ****ing ecstatic they rolled it back, but nevertheless, the competitive scene in that game has been in overall decline for quite a few years. With Tip of the Hats and i46/49/52 it has been actually growing for the first time in a long time, but it never has compared to any other competitive game in terms of popularity. The international i49 tournament, one of the only two times there has ever been global competition for TF2, only peaked at I think 7k viewers. League of Legends gets 100k viewers on their weekly LCS matches for either region. (NA/EU)

And not just in terms of popularity, there actually is quite certainly a shortage of people to play against at all skill levels. The top players in Invite have pretty much been the same 20 or 25 people for the past 7 years. It's pretty unheard of to have a crazy superstar from Japan that plays a thought-to-be garbage character and brings him to 9th place in a major tournament. That just doesn't happen in TF2. ESEA has been pretty stale for years. Lots of invite-capable players or even players with invite history even just sandbag open because that's more fun then literally never making the top 4 in invite.

Also not to mention there isn't a circuit-with-tournaments type of scene like there are for a lot of other games. Competitive TF2 is played in Leagues, and extremely unfortunately it happens that it's fairly monopolized by ESEA. They are the only good prominent TF2 league that actually has a LAN or any money in it at all. And you know what ESEA did last summer? They mined bit coin on players' computers via the ESEA client that is mandatory for all league official matches. And people are still playing in that league. Why Because the comp TF2 scene is very close to dying and we have no choice but to cling to ESEA to keep it afloat. EVO has been on the rise, thank the good lord, but for the longest time, that was the ****storm that was competitive TF2.

TL;DR I'm sorry to blatantly disagree but, yes, it very much on its last legs, undeniably.

Are you saying you would be against balance updates for Smash melee if it were possible?

Okay sorry to blatantly disagree here, and I might sound like a bit of an elitist here but I have been around competitive gaming since I was in elementary school and these are just some things I have gathered in my experiences.

Balance is overrated. Not only is it overrated but it is also not necessary in the slightest to the success and competitive viability of a game. In fact, I would go so far as to say that imbalance is necessary to make a game competitively viable, and also cater to a casual audience.

I am sorry to everyone on the rest of the thread to keep bringing up this example, but if you look at competitive 6v6 in TF2, the Demoman is the single strongest class in that meta, nay, in the entire game. The Demoman can dish out massive amounts of damage like no other class can, bar none, hands down. The Demo does the most damage in the game undeniably. So why was everybody so up in arms about the Demoman nerf? Because the game worked perfectly fine with an asymmetrical class balance. Yes the demo did ******** amounts of damage without even needing to aim that precisely, but the Demo had one weakness, and it was that he had absolutely no way to defend himself. A good Demoman was able to position himself correctly within his team so that he had adequate protection at all times, and likewise with the team, they would protect their demo at almost any cost. Every other class in the game can beat the Demoman in a 1v1 though, rather easily. So this creates a meta of playing around your Demoman explicitly, realizing his massive damage output, preserving his life as long as possible, and playing off of that.

Both teams have a Demoman.

And then there are classes that are just objectively bad. Slow, not a lot of damage output, gimmicky, not well rounded, etc. Such as Pyro, Spy, Heavy, and Engineer. The game is not balanced whatsoever. But you know what? Its a class-based first person shooter. What is the point of having different classes if they are all balanced? What is the point of having different classes if they don't excel at certain aspects of the game over other classes? What is the point of having different characters if they are all balanced exactly the same?

Then you look at games like League of Legends where there are only probably about 3 to 5 viable champions for each role. Some would argue that is perhaps a bit too unbalanced, especially when at TI3 in Dota2 only 5 heros remained unpicked in the entire tournament, but the fact of the matter is that if you want to cater to both a casual and competitive audience, that is just the way that "balance" goes. You don't want to create a game that only has 5 or 6 characters in it, because that isn't as much fun for casual players, but it is close to impossible to create 100 different characters in a game that are different and unique in their own way, and are all actually viable.

As much as some people might like to deny it or wish it were different, in every video game you play there IS a "best" way to do any given thing. A most efficient, most pragmatic, strongest, most consistent way to do something. There is a combination of items, spells, talents, weapons, whatever, that is the strongest for one thing, or many things. And that is the bottom line. Find me a game that has any success that is truly balanced, where every character, strategy, weapon, whatever, is completely balanced so that it works just as good as all the other ones in all situations that can possibly occur. You won't.

 

[Watofu]

Please don't act like Brawl players arbitrarily began outwardly hating Melee first.

Please don't act like either fanbase is a hivemind acting as 1 single group

Also, the post above me is very good. One thing he didn't touch upon was the general idea of how imbalance CREATES depth.
You can imagine it like a swimming pool. You have 2 different pools that each hold the same amount of water, but one is large and the other is small. Since they have the same volume of water, the small pool will be deeper. It's the same in games. If you have the same amount of "brain power," the less matchups you have to learn the deeper you can go into each one.
At that point it's preference, whether you like a huge variety of viable characters or a few very intricate matchups.

 

[GunGunW]

I think Melee will probably always stand out as the best in the series to many people, just as Brawl might be the best to many people. I know some people try to tear it down because they like Brawl better or feel Brawl is superior, but just something to remember: Melee came out in 2001, and Brawl came out in 2008. Melee was top of the line for 2001... Brawl wasn't for 2008.

 

[Cassio]

You've shown no evidence to contradict what we've said on this. You are just saying that our points are irrelevant because you think otherwise. Considering the fact that there is a very large portion of smashers that don't regularly post on the smashboards, it's crazy to assume it's anything other than a vocal minority.

Also one should take note that the human brain is quicker to remember things that we consider "bad" than what we like. So going by your feelings is a very poor indication that the majority of melee players are jerks/entitled/whatever bad thing you claim.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of proof. I know you cant provide proof and I know I cant prove its the majority which is why I never made that claim. I think Id even agree its not the majority but its definitely seems like a pretty sizable portion of people. I think youre assuming Im just trying to criticize for the sake of finding flaws in the community, which is not the case.

Fine if you want to ignore my points and assert the same thing you have asserted over and over there is no more point to this discussion.

Ive already answered everything, but you decided its best not to do anything which is of course your choice.

 

[BO/\K]

@ Cassio can you pls gtfo this thread? You derailed it with offtopic Melee/Brawl identity politics and the entire thread would have been better off if you kept your mouth shut.

 

[Accelerator]

Its a reason, but its not the primary reason.

The melee scene will eventually kill itself unfortunately because of its entitlement.

The primary reason Melee is still played is because it's an amazing game. You don't dump hundreds of hours into a game unless you think it's good.

The Melee community cannot kill itself of entitlement because we are a grassroots scene. We're accustomed to doing everything ourselves and getting nothing in the first place, so how is entitlement going to kill us?

If anything is going to kill Melee it will be when the game stops being fun, kind of like why Brawl is dying; because it's garbage.

 

[Cassio]

The primary reason Melee is still played is because it's an amazing game. You don't dump hundreds of hours into a game unless you think it's good.

The Melee community cannot kill itself of entitlement because we are a grassroots scene. We're accustomed to doing everything ourselves and getting nothing in the first place, so how is entitlement going to kill us?

If anything is going to kill Melee it will be when the game stops being fun, kind of like why Brawl is dying; because it's garbage.

This is fairly incorrect. People put lots of hours into mediocre games all the time and many good games die quickly or never get big at all. The primary reason melee does so well is because of its exposure. Its the way of the world.

@ Cassio You derailed it with offtopic Melee/Brawl identity politics.

This is false, this is about entitlement not Brawl as Ive stated several times.

 

[BO/\K]

If it's not about Brawl then wtf is this entitlement you're talking about? The Melee scene as I've experienced it has always been driven by a love of Melee and has been very bottom-up and community-driven. I don't see where you get entitlement, and I REALLY don't get where you get entitlement as the reason for Melee's eventual collapse.

Also, exposure as the reason Melee does so well? And how are you so sure that the exposure Melee gets isn't due to it being a complex and interesting competitive game? The exposure is a symptom of Melee's success not a cause.

 

[Accelerator]

This is fairly incorrect. People put lots of hours into mediocre games all the time and many good games die quickly or never get big at all. The primary reason melee does so well is because of its exposure. Its the way of the world.

This is false, this is about entitlement not Brawl as Ive stated several times.

A game being mediocre is mostly subjective dependent upon the persons taste. Besides the point, exposure will only get a game so far. It has to be good for the person to dump hundreds of hours into it.

 

[Cassio]

Honestly, this isnt really about one game or another. I want to see as much success as possible. Maybe its just the reactions to MLG being so recent; but between that, smash4, the way people reacted to the player cams thing, and to VGBootCamps issues at SKTAR 3 it seems like some are prepared to harm connections if things dont go as they expect. Also to not confuse things I dont mean what people say locally or with friends but rather anything thats sort of public.

 

[BO/\K]

Okay that's not entitlement. MLG had some definite problems with administration, and calling them out is not entitlement. Smash 4 honestly looks nubby at this stage in development the same way Brawl did. It's fair to express opinions about that. Player cams are something stream viewers love, and their absence at Super Sweet was suspect. I don't get how any of this is entitlement, and I don't get how any of these events harmed the Melee scene or pushed it closer to dying.

 

[Rᴏb]

Its a reason, but its not the primary reason.

So, melee being the game it is... isn't the main reason why people still play it?

:^)

 

[TheGoat]

Its a reason, but its not the primary reason.

The melee scene will eventually cause itself to lose steam unfortunately because of its entitlement.

There is no entitlement. People play it because it's fun. Maybe that's a concept you don't understand for whatever reason, but I think you've derailed the thread enough at this point. If you like brawl, good for you, go to the brawl boards. Melee isn't losing steam. Go to any melee tournament and see that the community is actually growing with new players consistently joining. I know you really wish it would die, but it won't, because it's a really good game. So you'll just have to deal with it and take your trolling elsewhere.

 

[Thor]

Okay sorry to blatantly disagree here, and I might sound like a bit of an elitist here but I have been around competitive gaming since I was in elementary school and these are just some things I have gathered in my experiences. Balance is overrated. Not only is it overrated but it is also not necessary in the slightest to the success and competitive viability of a game. In fact, I would go so far as to say that imbalance is necessary to make a game competitively viable, and also cater to a casual audience. I am sorry to everyone on the rest of the thread to keep bringing up this example, but if you look at competitive 6v6 in TF2, the Demoman is the single strongest class in that meta, nay, in the entire game. The Demoman can dish out massive amounts of damage like no other class can, bar none, hands down. The Demo does the most damage in the game undeniably. So why was everybody so up in arms about the Demoman nerf? Because the game worked perfectly fine with an asymmetrical class balance. Yes the demo did ******** amounts of damage without even needing to aim that precisely, but the Demo had one weakness, and it was that he had absolutely no way to defend himself. A good Demoman was able to position himself correctly within his team so that he had adequate protection at all times, and likewise with the team, they would protect their demo at almost any cost. Every other class in the game can beat the Demoman in a 1v1 though, rather easily. So this creates a meta of playing around your Demoman explicitly, realizing his massive damage output, preserving his life as long as possible, and playing off of that. Both teams have a Demoman. And then there are classes that are just objectively bad. Slow, not a lot of damage output, gimmicky, not well rounded, etc. Such as Pyro, Spy, Heavy, and Engineer. The game is not balanced whatsoever. But you know what? Its a class-based first person shooter. What is the point of having different classes if they are all balanced? What is the point of having different classes if they don't excel at certain aspects of the game over other classes? What is the point of having different characters if they are all balanced exactly the same? Then you look at games like League of Legends where there are only probably about 3 to 5 viable champions for each role. Some would argue that is perhaps a bit too unbalanced, especially when at TI3 in Dota2 only 5 heros remained unpicked in the entire tournament, but the fact of the matter is that if you want to cater to both a casual and competitive audience, that is just the way that "balance" goes. You don't want to create a game that only has 5 or 6 characters in it, because that isn't as much fun for casual players, but it is close to impossible to create 100 different characters in a game that are different and unique in their own way, and are all actually viable. As much as some people might like to deny it or wish it were different, in every video game you play there ISa "best" way to do any given thing. A most efficient, most pragmatic, strongest, most consistent way to do something. There is a combination of items, spells, talents, weapons, whatever, that is the strongest for one thing, or many things. And that is the bottom line. Find me a game that has any success that is truly balanced, where every character, strategy, weapon, whatever, is completely balanced so that it works just as good as all the other ones in all situations that can possibly occur. You won't.

False analogy. You can't play Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, ICs, and say, Bowser, all at once and set up your team so that Bowser can land his absurdly strong side smash, or set up so that Ganondorf can land a utilt or Warlock Punch. It's a 1v1. And while everyone in S and A tier could be left more or less alone (maybe CF has a slightly less effective knee and a better neutral, and something similar for Ganon since they just eat dirt repeatedly against Falco [nerf fair so not silly]), and maybe even don't do much to most of B tier, but I'd love to see GnW not get shield-stabbed every time someone does shine->dair->shine-> anything (if not already a stab)[so a shield buff] and him able to L-cancel his stuff and Ness isn't a joke and Kirby/Pichu isn't used only except when one is a die-hard fan of the character or because someone is going for humiliation tactics.

You essentially asserted imbalance = variety which is true in the context of "not everyone can do exactly the same things" but false in the context of "Marth wrecks Ness because that's needed to appeal to people" - it's a false definition as you're trying to portray it. You're also trying to force us (the people reading it that you want to persuade) into a false dilemma entirely irrelevant to actual balance. Balance doesn't necessarily revolve around everyone using the same strategy or all being 50-50 against each other. We could look to PM (or Brawl-, but that's a different meta entirely and mostly unfamiliar to you all I'm sure) as proof - Bowser is still a slow tank, but he's much better balanced - maybe not top-tier viable, but in an okay spot - Fox and Falco (and Lucas) are the speedsters while Lucario can do disgusting combos and Mewtwo has unparalleled movement, and Snake is a traps master (and Mario is an all-arounder, as far as I can tell). The problem isn't "Make everyone able to do it all the same effectiveness" as you've posited. The problem is "Can most charcters fill a niche or do some stuff well enough to more or less fit in and not be blown out of the water by the entire cast" which Kirby, Bowser,and Ness simply don't have. I'll agree that we won't find a game where every weapon does everything exactly as well as every other weapon (unless it's a parody game where they're all just reskins), but that doesn't mean you can't reasonably balance a game.

And I don't think most people look for "every character is equally viable" - I agree that's tough. But to say "you can't balance everyone so just don't do it" is silly because then the game would likely have something game-breaking like Akuma so we'd either be banning or left with single-character dittos, although you seem to think that's perfectly fine. Also StarCraft: Broodwar. This [I've read] comes VERY close [if not there] to your on-face absurd commandment (don't make me laugh; that every weapon everyone has should do the exact same thing is on-face ridiculous - it's why they're different weapons, it's just a question of the right weapons/moveset mix).

And yes imbalance of certain types creates depth, as PM has - an imbalance in various stats (speed, power, agility [that would be aerial turning speed], trap-setting powers, etc.) doesn't necessarily imply that one character can beat everyone else, and half of them pretty much hands-down. That's why PM and Melee each have depth, even though PM has a wider character variety that can be used - they don't say "Let's make this character trash to give it depth!" [look at how far Melee Kirby's meta has advanced, right?! Look at how many well-known tricks he has, right!? Oh wait I know of exactly one person who consistently enters his Kirby in tournament (still today), and I doubt most of you here know more than that, if any], they say "Let's give this character some useful trick so that people come up with new ways to set it up and avoid it!" [Lucario, Mewtwo, Snake, Lucas - people found stuff to do with them (including perfect shield pressure that got removed) and depth was still added, even though you can, y'know, actually USE all of these characters in a tournament and have a realistic chance of winning against most of the cast)].

P.S.: Cassio, Melee won't die, and I have no idea what this "entitlement" you speak of is (as a guy who really likes Brawl). Clarification please.

 

[The_Burn]

@ Thor if I understand your post you are listing BW as an example of a well balanced game even though, for years people thought that TvZ was a 100% m/u for terran, people cried for blizzard to do something because, even though more pro players played zerg then any other race their results were abysmal.

It took a player by the name of Savior to come in and revolutionize the zerg meta game for tournament results to begin evening out. Did it take a balance patch? Nope.

 

[Cassio]

Angry Stuff

You can get angry or accuse me of bias or whatever, but that doesnt change things.

So, melee being the game it is... isn't the main reason why people still play it?

Well this answer might be too complex for some peeps to understand, but the way something is perceived is frequently more important than the item itself. This isnt to say they arent both important though, but its pretty significant in advertising.

 

[Rᴏb]

Well this answer might be too complex for some peeps to understand, but the way something is perceived is frequently more important than the item itself. This isnt to say they arent both important though, but its pretty significant in advertising.

I knew this was coming, what a cop out

I could argue that causes are strictly more important than effects simply because without a cause there is no effect, and I'm sure you'd be able to understand what that means in the context of what we are talking about... But I don't feel like wasting my time on a philosophical discussion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

New controllers are coming out and there's the possibility of a remake for the wii u coming out. Also, hacked melee exists. Cost of equipment isn't going to kill the scene.

This is a streach considering what Sakurai has said on the subject.

Still this is something I've wanted.

Smash 64/Melee/Brawl, rebalanced, updated graphics, each engine being the same with minor tweeks to thinks like Melee's battlefield ledges, etc.

It's a dream but one I wish could come true.

I wrote that post before the nerf was reverted, and for the record I am extremely ****ing ecstatic they rolled it back, but nevertheless, the competitive scene in that game has been in overall decline for quite a few years. With Tip of the Hats and i46/49/52 it has been actually growing for the first time in a long time, but it never has compared to any other competitive game in terms of popularity. The international i49 tournament, one of the only two times there has ever been global competition for TF2, only peaked at I think 7k viewers. League of Legends gets 100k viewers on their weekly LCS matches for either region. (NA/EU)

And not just in terms of popularity, there actually is quite certainly a shortage of people to play against at all skill levels. The top players in Invite have pretty much been the same 20 or 25 people for the past 7 years. It's pretty unheard of to have a crazy superstar from Japan that plays a thought-to-be garbage character and brings him to 9th place in a major tournament. That just doesn't happen in TF2. ESEA has been pretty stale for years. Lots of invite-capable players or even players with invite history even just sandbag open because that's more fun then literally never making the top 4 in invite.

Also not to mention there isn't a circuit-with-tournaments type of scene like there are for a lot of other games. Competitive TF2 is played in Leagues, and extremely unfortunately it happens that it's fairly monopolized by ESEA. They are the only good prominent TF2 league that actually has a LAN or any money in it at all. And you know what ESEA did last summer? They mined bit coin on players' computers via the ESEA client that is mandatory for all league official matches. And people are still playing in that league. Why Because the comp TF2 scene is very close to dying and we have no choice but to cling to ESEA to keep it afloat. EVO has been on the rise, thank the good lord, but for the longest time, that was the ****storm that was competitive TF2.

TL;DR I'm sorry to blatantly disagree but, yes, it very much on its last legs, undeniably.


Okay sorry to blatantly disagree here, and I might sound like a bit of an elitist here but I have been around competitive gaming since I was in elementary school and these are just some things I have gathered in my experiences.

Balance is overrated. Not only is it overrated but it is also not necessary in the slightest to the success and competitive viability of a game. In fact, I would go so far as to say that imbalance is necessary to make a game competitively viable, and also cater to a casual audience.

I am sorry to everyone on the rest of the thread to keep bringing up this example, but if you look at competitive 6v6 in TF2, the Demoman is the single strongest class in that meta, nay, in the entire game. The Demoman can dish out massive amounts of damage like no other class can, bar none, hands down. The Demo does the most damage in the game undeniably. So why was everybody so up in arms about the Demoman nerf? Because the game worked perfectly fine with an asymmetrical class balance. Yes the demo did ******** amounts of damage without even needing to aim that precisely, but the Demo had one weakness, and it was that he had absolutely no way to defend himself. A good Demoman was able to position himself correctly within his team so that he had adequate protection at all times, and likewise with the team, they would protect their demo at almost any cost. Every other class in the game can beat the Demoman in a 1v1 though, rather easily. So this creates a meta of playing around your Demoman explicitly, realizing his massive damage output, preserving his life as long as possible, and playing off of that.

Both teams have a Demoman.

And then there are classes that are just objectively bad. Slow, not a lot of damage output, gimmicky, not well rounded, etc. Such as Pyro, Spy, Heavy, and Engineer. The game is not balanced whatsoever. But you know what? Its a class-based first person shooter. What is the point of having different classes if they are all balanced? What is the point of having different classes if they don't excel at certain aspects of the game over other classes? What is the point of having different characters if they are all balanced exactly the same?

Then you look at games like League of Legends where there are only probably about 3 to 5 viable champions for each role. Some would argue that is perhaps a bit too unbalanced, especially when at TI3 in Dota2 only 5 heros remained unpicked in the entire tournament, but the fact of the matter is that if you want to cater to both a casual and competitive audience, that is just the way that "balance" goes. You don't want to create a game that only has 5 or 6 characters in it, because that isn't as much fun for casual players, but it is close to impossible to create 100 different characters in a game that are different and unique in their own way, and are all actually viable.

As much as some people might like to deny it or wish it were different, in every video game you play there IS a "best" way to do any given thing. A most efficient, most pragmatic, strongest, most consistent way to do something. There is a combination of items, spells, talents, weapons, whatever, that is the strongest for one thing, or many things. And that is the bottom line. Find me a game that has any success that is truly balanced, where every character, strategy, weapon, whatever, is completely balanced so that it works just as good as all the other ones in all situations that can possibly occur. You won't.

This is partially true.

Numerically you can make someone good or bad of sheer numbers, there are ways to balance this out, incomparables among class or character based games are one of the best ways to make characters stand out and have something to offer than others don't.

A game where everyone in a game is 100% viable, that is pretty much impossible to make a 40+ character game and all of them viable/balanced.

League does a pretty good job on this all things considered.

Inbalance though, that can ruin a game for people and just outright ruin gaemplay if it warps it around those powerful elements.

 

[Stevo]

Melee players have had to fight for over a decade for what we have now. From other fighting game players saying it is a children's party game, to casual players saying wavedashing is an exploit, to Nintendo either ignoring or even actively looking to shut down competetive play. Competitive Melee has been fought at every turn. However

Melee lives on.

Even if there is some feelings of entitlement, I would say it makes sense to have some of those feelings, and you could argue some of it has been earned anyway. The rest is probably just vocal minority as others have mentioned.

 

[Twitchy]

League does a pretty good job on this all things considered.

I'm sorry but, how? Have you seen LCS lately? There is rarely a solo lane pick that isn't from the pool of about the same 5 champions.
Top's got Renekton, Lulu, Shyvanna, Jax, and pretty much nothing else.
Mid's got kayle, kassadin, and yasuo

When was the last time you saw Alistar or Taric support? Maokai jungle after season 2? Urgot adc?

 

[MookieRah]

I'm not making an assumption, this is from direct or at worst one degree of indirect information. Majority or not its influential, and I dont even want to be specific right now because some are friends or otherwise respectable people.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of proof. I know you cant provide proof and I know I cant prove its the majority which is why I never made that claim. I think Id even agree its not the majority but its definitely seems like a pretty sizable portion of people.

Absence of evidence might not be evidence of proof, but having absolutely no evidence to back up your claim and then acting like your lack of evidence gives your position something to stand on is very weak. So far all you have is your anecdotal evidence and stuff you hear from friends. Unless you are actively documenting things, you have absolutely no idea how much of the community is actually toxic.

I've already pointed out that it's human nature to remember negative experiences, and it's also human nature to take note of patterns that fit a stereotype. For every crazed melee fan you see on the boards saying dumb stuff that fits your stereotype, I can assure you there are tons that don't. You also have to take into account that there are trolls baiting both sides. The burden of proof is on you to support your claim that it isn't a vocal minority. Good luck on that too, because a very large percentage (at least half) don't even actively post on the smashboards.

This isnt about Melee vs Brawl and I dont care about the moral high ground here, I dont agree with any bashing. But if brawl scene getting upset at melee players is really an issue the quickest and simplest way to end it is for the melee scene to stop bashing on the non melee games.

Every time you speak you act as if the Brawl players are innocent to all of this, and it's apparent in how you word stuff. This quote once again shows your blatant bias, as you are essentially saying that it's melee's fault for bashing Brawl, ergo melee players should just stop bashing brawl and this would all go away. That wouldn't work because just as many brawl players bash melee players simply cause they are bigoted towards them.

Ever hear of tourneyfag? You have at least heard ********, as Thor has used that in this thread, a derivative of tourneyfag that specifically targets melee. These words weren't a thing in the smash community prior to Brawl, and their sole purpose is to make fun of competitive melee players. Just the fact that these words are now in the vernacular point that Brawl players are not innocent.

Until people from both sides of the fence realise that each side really doesn't hate each other as much as they think, things won't really improve. Your lack of realising this is and pushing that it's much more (and clearly implying it's melee's fault) is only making the situation worse.

QUICK EDIT:
Yay for the smash boards! They have now censored that word Thor used in this thread! I am actually quite happy.

 

[Bones0]

I'm the only one out of the some 20 kids that even owns the new white gc controller, they're all using the silver and purple gc launch controllers.

So am I(using a launch controller, that is). >_>

 

[itsbme]

So am I. >_>

My old indigo controller still works great that i've had since 2003.