The_Burn said:
if I understand your post you are listing BW as an example of a well balanced game even though, for years people thought that TvZ was a 100% m/u for terran, people cried for blizzard to do something because, even though more pro players played zerg then any other race their results were abysmal.
It took a player by the name of Savior to come in and revolutionize the zerg meta game for tournament results to begin evening out. Did it take a balance patch? Nope.
Difference is, no one is ever going to revolutionize Kirby's metagame and all the sudden Kirby will be a viable character, and that won't happen for most of the rest either. The problem is, they are characters simply outclassed in ever aspect. We'll isolate Kirby for now. Power? Fox has more in usmash, or the same with FAR less risk than a sweetspot hammer. Speed? Outclassed by miles. Recovery? Fox can be hit back out a few times and be living, Kirby can't. Kirby is also pretty easy to gimp if you know what you're doing, which is also admittedly a Fox problem, but Kirby isn't really that much better at this - and even if he is, being slightly better in recovery doesn't cut it where you lose everywhere else. Survivability? Kirby falls slower, and I don't think he's heavier than Fox - dies sooner. Comboability - Kirby is not less comboable than Jiggs, and has a worse neutral to be sure (slower), and Fox being combo'd isn't an end-all be-all by any stretch - comboable characters can do well. General moveset in the air? His nair is terrible (good for landing, that's like it), his fair is mediocre at best (CC and/or SDI it), his uair is inferior to Fox's and Fox can use bair as an often very similar move, his bair is more or less Fox's bair as well (maybe a bit better) and his dair is worse than Fox's - slower and while it meteors that's cancellable. Ground game? Ftilt of Fox is just as good or almost as good, but ftilt is very CC-able and punish with whatever. Dtilt is more or less the same analysis. Utilt of Fox and Kirby do very similar things, but Kirby can't utilt shine if the utitl is CC'd, so he's at a riskier spot to utilt someone in exchange for a slightly better range (and I think Fox's can be used quicker, so it's safer in general). Specials? Up+b of Kirby is worse than Fox's for recovery - moves less range in all directions and if Kirby had jumps left, they're all gone (same as Fox, but he gets one). It's potentially usable for gimps, but Fox can just fly out with nair, bair, or shine so that utility is negligible. Down+b is a joke on Kirby - you can sort of edgeguard from way high up with it, but shine does it better (as do Fox's other tools), it's not a shine (Fox has shine, I shouldn't need to explain why that can set up KOs, gimp, etc.), and has WAY more endlag, and it's easy to see like anywhere on stage. Side+B? Hammer is bleh - tiny sweetspot and very long lag, and in the air it's low damage and knockback means someone can try to fall in and punish Kirby on landing or endlag, while Fox's is just a recovery trick. Inhale does help in some MUs, but Fox's laser does too, and inhale-cides just won't happen at the top. Grabs? You can mash out of three of them - dthrow is actually not bad, but Fox's uthrow is good and his other throws can be used near the ledge without killing himself (and not the opponent if they mash out). Conclusion: Unless Kirby mains can revolutionize how Melee is played with more uair/bair/utilt and sweetspot hammers while dthrow tech-chasing and ALWAY land these reads, Kirby is punishment fodder, and being combo'd isn't a good measure of viability, as we've seen (I could also compare Kirby to Jiggs, if you think this analysis was insufficient). And oh wait - the Kirby I know already DOES all this stuff, making incredible use of all these moves that aren't strictly inferior to Fox's (and good use of the ones that are). And he still knows Kirby should almost never beat a Fox or Falco at the top [tech skill errors happen...]. You can't revolutionize a metagame when a move-by-move comparison reveals that one is strictly outclassed in nearly the entire moveset (and you still get gimped hard if your opponent knows what they are doing).
I also just read somewhere that the game (SB or whatever) is supposed to be perfectly balanced - I know next to nothing about it.
--- [end pseudo-rant]
MookieRah said:
Ever hear of tourneyfag? You have at least heard ********, as Thor has used that in this thread, a derivative of tourneyfag that specifically targets melee. These words weren't a thing in the smash community prior to Brawl, and their sole purpose is to make fun of competitive melee players. Just the fact that these words are now in the vernacular point that Brawl players are not innocent.
*facepalm* Did you read my post? First, I said I like Melee and like the scene, except for the parts where I hear Hbox say "F*** Brawl" or Scar talking about how it's such a bad game at a P:M/Melee only tournament. Second, I already said I AM a "********" or have been called one by people I know and don't view it as an insult, but a humorous joke [and a tourneyfag too, which I find just as laughable]. Third, you may not have noticed that they fit the word as it's intended perfectly: "It's bad because it's not Melee" was verbatim what they said [or else sketchy memory but that's the essence]. Then he called me an idiot for even wondering if Brawl wasn't a bad game. Which is pretty hateful in its own right, despite your claim that "neither side of the isle hates itself as much as Cassio thinks." Fourth, I've heard Brawl players called tourneyfag too, so I don't see how that's used to specifically target Melee [again, I didn't want items so I was the ******** and tourneyfag at the school. And I found that they even knew the terms hysterical]. Fifth, I've only ever heard "********" in my 'vernacular' [which I rarely say because I rarely meet the people who fit it to a T], just as I also use "superfluous" and "formative assessment" whenever those terms come up to describe things. I don't think my "vernacular" qualifies as anything of the sort. Sixth, I don't think people even invented the term "********" until Melee players started bashing Brawl, so EVEN IF it's the fault of both sides, Brawl players stopping won't stop Melee players from Brawl-bashing, and since they were the first to start, it logically has to have the Melee side stop first (besides, I'm pretty sure if the Melee community actually started supporting Brawl, 99% of the people who hated on Melee would shut up pretty quickly, especially if the people who like both games like Keitaro and Coontail spread the word). In a different forum on the Brawl boards, I highlight something they've said on stream. My internet is really crappy so I can't just put the link here, but the thread was called "Why do Melee players hate Brawl so much?" [so even if it's a vocal minority, the fact that someone felt compelled to make a thread on it in which various people responded suggests that it IS taken as fact by the Brawl community]. And you say Brawl players are bigoted against Melee players - ever consider the source of that bigotry? [Also, even if the term (still not a derogative if used by people who to tournaments – like black people calling each other the n-word with an a instead, as a couple of my friends explained it to me – it’s funny and fitting and not insulting, simply expressing their preferences without extra words – denotations not connotations I used, you brought the connotations in when it was entirely irrelevant to my original point) was invented before Brawl game out, Brawl players were extremely vulnerable to the term given that’s it a “No items, use top-tier dude, go to ‘boring stages’” term so “Brawlfag” could’ve easily been a thing [and they were tourneyfags] so I don’t think this was actively used by tourneyfags until Brawl started getting a verbal beating from Melee players.]
P.S: The censors are bizarre [at the time of this post]: not censoring "tourneyfag", censoring half of "Meleefags" and "tourneyfags" and censoring all of "********"? Get a mod/censor-fixer in here! [Shaya perhaps?]
P.P.S: No Epsilon, did you notice that mlg picked up Melee again? If Smash 4 is "bad" enough to the point where people just want to watch Melee and tons of randoms bash Smash 4, esports will see the money, if any, is in Melee, and I can assure you that if Melee stays as strong as it has [which it will, unless Smash 4 is revamped, because of the die-hards and the people who love the game and Smash in general], they will be rewarded on the first venture and continue to have Melee events. And many people (like the guy I mentioned above who fits the word perfectly, but I'll refrain from more than heavily referencing it since many people here are very sensitive despite having no reason since I use it humorously and with disbelief, not malice) are already not liking Smash 4, I forsee a lot of Smash 4 bashing, even if esports decides to pick it up for a time - it may very well go the way of Brawl and drop off the radar, at least relative to Melee.
P.P.P.S: I still don't know what Cassio is going on about with his entitlement stuff... he's just confusing at this point - though his vocal minority claims are just as well-founded as MookieRah's, (Except my post alone has more examples than his does, which isn't even a real example), so...
