Melee v1.0 should take priority over 1.2 in future tournaments

[Jockmaster]

Exceptional trolling Bones

8/10

simply from the people you are agitating, it's pretty funny

 

[E-102 Gamma]

But what other crash bugs are you talking about?

I can't recall any, come to think of it. I remembered seeing at least a few crash bugs on YouTube a long time ago and assumed there were more than just the potentially-game-crashing Shadow Ball glitch that could potentially be performed in a tournament environment...

 

[Warhawk]

I mean I don't think its that easy to unintentionally perform the shadow ball glitch so if someone does it on purpose that could just be counted as forfeiting the match.

 

[Ripple]

shadow ball glitch can only be performed in doubles anyway

 

[Bones0]

Exceptional trolling Bones

8/10

simply from the people you are agitating, it's pretty funny

I'm not even trying. Froggy just an idiot who gets mad all the time.


1.0 can be requested unless you are playing teams and one of the players is using Mewtwo. Problem solved.

 

[VietGeek]

I never noticed any difference between versions.

Second hit of N-air comes out before the animation causes Ganondorf to stretch out his leg so the second hit is a giant thigh box and the leg is an empty chicken leg with only skin.

1.1 is apparently the best version because it keeps most of the low tier oddities and SDI but removes some glitches like the Multi-Man Melee records being overwritten for the base character when you use his clone (Pikachu is obv male). Also it fixes Ganondorf's N-air, meaning it's better because Ganondorf is more of a character.

So obv 1.1 is the strongest version. Why? Because my weeaboo ****** minions said so. Meaning I said so. Idiots!

obv

 

[Beat!]

**** low tiers

 

[Froggy]

I'm not even trying. Froggy just an idiot who gets mad all the time.


1.0 can be requested unless you are playing teams and one of the players is using Mewtwo. Problem solved.

I'm actually not upset at all. I was just illustrating that in this case your point was idiotic.

 

[Eggm]

I was at a tournament with DJ Nintendo recently and right before he sat down to play a tournament match (with samus) he tested it by doing an up + b on a computer and when he found out it was not 1.0 he simply got his own version of 1.0 out and put it in the GC and then they played the set.

TLDR: It's sort of unreasonable to only play on 1.0 because there won't be enough setups, and if you want to use it cause you play a low tier just bring it with you and do what DJ nintendo did, I doubt anyone will complain.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I was at a tournament with DJ Nintendo recently and right before he sat down to play a tournament match (with samus) he tested it by doing an up + b on a computer and when he found out it was not 1.0 he simply got his own version of 1.0 out and put it in the GC and then they played the set.

TLDR: It's sort of unreasonable to only play on 1.0 because there won't be enough setups, and if you want to use it cause you play a low tier just bring it with you and do what DJ nintendo did, I doubt anyone will complain.

This sounds good. If the opponent objects to the version change then the TOs can settle it and decide which version takes priority. I think, though, the question is which version should officially take priority by the default ruleset.

 

[Eggm]

I guess in the rare occasion that a player complains and won't let the player who brought their own 1.0 with them to put it in the GC then yeah a rule saying 1.0 is the standard would be fine.

 

[NJzFinest]

Which version is there more copies of? I'm pretty sure the later versions right? Nintendo wanted the game to be like that, so be it. If someone was playing Bowser against me and realized it wasn't the version he could flame cancel, I wouldn't let him switch lol. The makers of the game wanted Bowser to be even worse in the final product, ok.

Melee tourneys are just people bumming whatever copies of the game they can gather. Unless people start bringing wiis with meleev1.0 emu's and actually start using bad characters more often, I don't see this happening. So many people do not have this version and aren't effected by it.

Edit fun fact: YLink's bombs did more damage in 1.0 and the Links could airdodge ->hookshot->airdodge again with the boomerang return. Sounds stupid but Aniki had some sick recoveries with that.

 

[Froggy]

Which version is there more copies of? I'm pretty sure the later versions right? Nintendo wanted the game to be like that, so be it. If someone was playing Bowser against me and realized it wasn't the version he could flame cancel, I wouldn't let him switch lol. The makers of the game wanted Bowser to be even worse in the final product, ok.

.

But who gives a **** what Nintendo wants? This is about what's best for the community. What nintendo intended the game to be is irrelevant to this.

 

[commonyoshi]

If we're going to play the most "updated" version just for the update's sake then we might as well play PAL. Just because something is newer doesn't make it better.

Ahem.

 

[AXE 09]

I asked to play 1.0 when I played against someone in tournament at FC and he said no =/

 

[NJzFinest]

But who gives a **** what Nintendo wants? This is about what's best for the community. What nintendo intended the game to be is irrelevant to this.

How is it irrelevant? We're playing their game. This game happens to have tons of more copies out there with this stuff removed. This is seen in plenty of games, unintentionally and intentionally. Deal with it. As already mentioned, we can't just make v1.0 only tourneys when that version isn't available enough.

Best for the community? The community is mostly v1.2 players. What's best for the community is ignoring this and continuing how were currently are.

Melee is an ancient game now and there hasn't been many occasions where people even noticed what version they were playing on, let alone arguing about switching versions.

Just because something is newer doesn't make it better.

Um, yes, as a person who mains Low Tiers, I was totally going for the v1.2 nerfs on these bad characters totally = the game being better.

 

[Bones0]

As already mentioned, we can't just make v1.0 only tourneys when that version isn't available enough.

For most matchups that are played, 1.2 is the same as 1.0. You don't need enough versions for every setup. You don't even need enough for every low tier player. You just need enough for every low tier player that cares about what version they're playing on. Which is like 5, so why not just let them request 1.0?

 

[Pink Reaper]

I asked to play 1.0 when I played against someone in tournament at FC and he said no =/

If you can get an advantage by denying your opponent something, why wouldnt you?

 

[Bones0]

He wasn't complaining about that player's decision, just the rule that prevented him from playing 1.0.

 

[NJzFinest]

For most matchups that are played, 1.2 is the same as 1.0. You don't need enough versions for every setup. You don't even need enough for every low tier player. You just need enough for every low tier player that cares about what version they're playing on. Which is like 5, so why not just let them request 1.0?

This is far far different from making tournaments 1.0 only lol.

He wasn't complaining about that player's decision, just the rule that prevented him from playing 1.0.

From the way Axe said it, it seems like the guy was just being a ****, not that there's an actual rule.

 

[The Star King]

Pretty sure nobody proposed making tournaments 1.0 only and you're wasting energy arguing with nobody.

 

[Bones0]

This is far far different from making tournaments 1.0 only lol.


From the way Axe said it, it seems like the guy was just being a ****, not that there's an actual rule.

Yeah, I don't think anyone said anything about making tournaments 1.0 only because, like I just said, it doesn't even affect most matchups that are played. If I'm playing someone Falco vs. Marth, the version is literally irrelevant. Neither player is going to request to play on 1.0.

He was just trying to show that this is an actual issue. If we all agree that 1.0 is better for competition, then we need to have a rule that enables low tier mains to play on 1.0 if they care to do so.

 

[AXE 09]

If you can get an advantage by denying your opponent something, why wouldnt you?

Well yeah I mean that's fine. He was just taking advantage of the FC ruleset.

But my question is, why shouldn't a low tier player be allowed to switch to 1.0?

I'm not saying that 1.0 needs to be played on every setup, but I AM saying that low tier players should be able to switch upon request.

 

[Deleted member]

I asked to play 1.0 when I played against someone in tournament at FC and he said no =/

did you lose the match because of it?

 

[AXE 09]

did you lose the match because of it?

Actually quite possibly. There were times where I know I would've lived if I had 1.0, and I definitely would've done a few things differently

 

[Sorto]

I was curious, does the different sdi in 1.0 effect the IC uptilt or blizzard move

 

[Oneupsalesman]

I kinda feel like everyone should have a favorite character for each tier category. I main with Marth, but I also love using characters like Mario and Link.

Why did these changes get made? They don't seem to be game-breaking, for the most part.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I'm still looking for a good argument against giving v1.0 request priority at tournaments, from a technical standpoint. I'm all for anything that makes low tiers more usable.

Why did these changes get made? They don't seem to be game-breaking, for the most part.

The changes are technically bug fixes, that is, repairing game engine technicalities that Nintendo did not intend to include. Some of them are odd enough to warrant a fix, such as Link's boomerang super jump. In the process, however, they made Link's hookshot a completely non-viable attack in general, which was an unintended side-effect of the bug fix.

 

[Wake]

Man I love SDIing Zelda's stuff, and I play against a Zelda main regularly, but I guess I wouldn't care that much which version I played on.

 

[NJzFinest]

So we need a rule for the situation where someone has a copy of v1.0 laying around and a low tier player wants to use it? I'd imagine most players wouldn't mind.
If the low tier main shuts off the gamecube and replaces the copy, I don't think any TO would get upset lol.

 

[Bones0]

So we need a rule for the situation where someone has a copy of v1.0 laying around and a low tier player wants to use it? I'd imagine most players wouldn't mind.

Axe's post???

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

But my question is, why shouldn't a low tier player be allowed to switch to 1.0?

I'm not saying that 1.0 needs to be played on every setup, but I AM saying that low tier players should be able to switch upon request.

Say we went by the rule in the manner you posed your question.

"Low tiers are allowed to request to play on a 1.0 or 1.1 set-up"

Although, why should only low tiers be allowed to request a change? There are really only a few direct changes to characters themselves which could affect match-ups strategy as I see it. Ness, Link, Young Link, Bowser, and Ganon. The real changer it seems is the hitlag mechanic on 1% moves. As you mentioned, Samus and Zelda receive some benefits for this. Samus is not exactly a low tier either and nor is ganon.

Not even all low tiers are affected by this change either. Say you run into a match-up between G&W vs Zelda. As far as I know, G&W does not benefit at all from changing versions. So being a low tier who is unaffected by versions, why should the zelda player be given the favoritism in the ruleset and give themselves that ever so slight advantage in a match-up between low tiers. Or try samus versus G&W. I believe the match-up is in her favor, so why does the samus player (if encompassed in this ruling) get to have an even better advantage over a match-up she already wins? It sort of makes sense to allow a losing character a buff, but give the winning character a buff to give them a better advantage?

I hope I am getting my point across. I just think its a silly rule to only allow low tier characters (which is really a lie since it only affects certain characters) the ability to request to play on 1.0 or a 1.1 set-up. In my opinion, you either let every character allowed to request a 1.0 or 1.1 set-up, or no such request be made period. If you get stuck on a 1.2 set-up because you were assigned there to play the match by the TO, then you play the set regardless of the version you are with.

Edit: As another point, say G&W does face a Samus on a 1.0 or 1.1 version. If G&W faces a bad match-up, shouldn't G&W be allowed to request that they play on a 1.2 version so Samus does not that little tiny advantage? The whole heart of this topic seems to be that its fair to give the losing character (sterotyped as low tiers) slight benefits to help their match-ups. But in this situation, its clearly against G&W if Samus envoked the ruling of being allowed to switch versions. Depending upon the version, either character could get a benefit and you end up with who should take priority? You could say that Samus is not covered as low tier, but that seems unfair since she could benefit from being able to switch versions in her match-ups against characters she loses against.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Xeylode, that's definitely a good point. My counterpoint is that the top 8 characters (everyone above Samus) make up 80% of all players (approximated by SSBPD; see http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321825). This means Samus has about a 15% chance of gaining a further advantage over a good matchup vs. an 80% chance of gaining an advantage over a bad matchup. As you go lower on the tier list, such as Link and Zelda, these two percentages decrease and increase, respectively. In other words, there is an extremely low chance that Samus or a low tier gains additional advantage over a lower tier, and an extremely high chance that Samus or a low tier gains an advantage versus a bad matchup.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Yeah, for most matches, Axe's call for at least the simple request from low tier players to be able to choose a version they play on is perfectly reasonable. But, the whole idea in the first place also affects a small number of people who actually play with low tiers, And as you already proved (some what through a small population) that very few people would ever be affected by Axe's suggestion.

I do not really know. When dealing with suggestions for stuff like this that affects so little, I think its harder to deal with the inconsistencies of the suggestion by bringing up the argument of "since its affects such a small population lets waver the issue". I could very well use the same argument and say that since there are so few low tier players, why even bother advocating the Axe's suggestion in the first place.

But, I guess I am digressing from the main point. The suggestion is in good faith and I'd support it since I play Marth and it doesn't affect me at all, but there is the inconsistency and a little room for debate with the suggestion between low tier vs low tier match-ups.

 

[AXE 09]

Say we went by the rule in the manner you posed your question.

"Low tiers are allowed to request to play on a 1.0 or 1.1 set-up"

Although, why should only low tiers be allowed to request a change? There are really only a few direct changes to characters themselves which could affect match-ups strategy as I see it. Ness, Link, Young Link, Bowser, and Ganon. The real changer it seems is the hitlag mechanic on 1% moves. As you mentioned, Samus and Zelda receive some benefits for this. Samus is not exactly a low tier either and nor is ganon.

Not even all low tiers are affected by this change either. Say you run into a match-up between G&W vs Zelda. As far as I know, G&W does not benefit at all from changing versions. So being a low tier who is unaffected by versions, why should the zelda player be given the favoritism in the ruleset and give themselves that ever so slight advantage in a match-up between low tiers. Or try samus versus G&W. I believe the match-up is in her favor, so why does the samus player (if encompassed in this ruling) get to have an even better advantage over a match-up she already wins? It sort of makes sense to allow a losing character a buff, but give the winning character a buff to give them a better advantage?

I hope I am getting my point across. I just think its a silly rule to only allow low tier characters (which is really a lie since it only affects certain characters) the ability to request to play on 1.0 or a 1.1 set-up. In my opinion, you either let every character allowed to request a 1.0 or 1.1 set-up, or no such request be made period. If you get stuck on a 1.2 set-up because you were assigned there to play the match by the TO, then you play the set regardless of the version you are with.

Edit: As another point, say G&W does face a Samus on a 1.0 or 1.1 version. If G&W faces a bad match-up, shouldn't G&W be allowed to request that they play on a 1.2 version so Samus does not that little tiny advantage? The whole heart of this topic seems to be that its fair to give the losing character (sterotyped as low tiers) slight benefits to help their match-ups. But in this situation, its clearly against G&W if Samus envoked the ruling of being allowed to switch versions. Depending upon the version, either character could get a benefit and you end up with who should take priority? You could say that Samus is not covered as low tier, but that seems unfair since she could benefit from being able to switch versions in her match-ups against characters she loses against.

This is actually a really good argument. However, I think InternetExplorer has a good counter-argument to this, which were my initial thoughts while reading your post. I didn't mean to specificy that ONLY lower tiers can pick 1.0. Anyone should be able to pick 1.0, I just don't see a reason why any high tier would want to.

 

[Deleted member]

my concern isn't balance but rather that it's another hindrance or obstacle to running a tournament. i just want to be certain that you think the difference is worth this difficulty.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i think the difference matters a lot for young link (and link too, but it matters more for young link) and bowser

young link has an added recovery option (airdodging into a hookshot and then canceling your hookshot with a boomerang catch) in 1.0, and if he were to try that in any other version, he would most certainly kill himself.

and bowser has flame canceling in 1.0, whereas there is no flame canceling in 1.1 and 1.2.

i don't think the smash DI differences are nearly as significant, but when a character has very viable options in one version that CAN'T BE DONE in other versions, it's something that should definitely be addressed.







and i think we should address this by making 1.2 the competitive standard

in all seriousness, though, i think that if anyone wants to enforce this rule, they have to keep a copy of 1.0 with them at all times. i don't think it should be the TO's responsibility to keep tabs on versions of melee that are out and about to please a very small minority of people. if low tier players want to enforce such a rule, they have to make it as convenient as possible for others. if they're able to do that, then i see no issue.

these small things don't change the fact that young link, link, and bowser aren't even close to being high tiers. it doesn't even make them that much better, but it does affect the way that YL/L/B players have to play the game. if these players have spent hours upon hours working these techniques into their game, it's REALLY disruptive to their play if they have to force themselves to refrain from doing them in situations where they're used to doing these things.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I think if a player chooses Yoshi, the opponent is forced to SD 1 time for Yoshi's 1 jump

/troll

<3 this thread so far.. good stuff^^

and I like tai's statement

 

[AXE 09]

and i think we should address this by making 1.2 the competitive standard

LOL freakin Tai

 

[Strong Badam]

I never noticed any difference between versions.

Second hit has completely messed up hitbox timings in 1.0