Melee v1.0 should take priority over 1.2 in future tournaments

[-ACE-]

I agree with that. I think I misunderstood you completely. I thought you wanted to use 1.0 as the standard (more aggressive than OP stance).

 

[ikrager]

I think 1.0 should be the main version tournaments focus on. With the fact that they changed moves that deal less than 1% damage and the fact you can SDI out of them, it makes playing on 1.2 far less enjoyable (with low tiers). I think it's dumb that they ever changed the mechanics of hitlag.

In full support of only playing 1.0. But to me, it seems like it would further separate the fanbase even more.

 

[Plunder]

Yea 1.0 is far more balanced concerning the lower tiers

Isn't the main problem that they are just rare?

In my entire life I've only come across 1 (out of like 35 discs), I would definitely love if 1 was the standard though on TE/20xx since it helps out the characters I play.

 

[Bones0]

Just because your character would benefit from using what is, for all intents and purposes, a "broken" version, doesn't mean we should use it. It doesn't matter how good or bad your character is, we shouldn't be deciding what version to use based on balance decisions. Those decisions should be left up to the people MAKING the game. Even if you somehow see no moral issue with artificially buffing/nerfing characters by allowing 1.0 discs, there's other issues like the frozen turnip glitch.

 

[Plunder]

Moral issues? Lol calm down there kiddo, 1.2 is still broken and unbalanced....

and so is the PAL version even with all it's revisions.

And they still use 1.0 and 1.1 in large tournaments, I've noticed mostly in AZ and Cali where lower tier characters are used more.

Wobbling was historically counted as a glitch and used to be banned in a ton of major tournaments (still is in Canada, Juggleguy only recently unbanned it, a lot in the midwest still ban it). The ICs glitches are far more game breaking than anything the lower tiers can use in a tournament setting (like Ness's YoYo, YL boomerang catch reset, SDIing out of Samus/Zelda/YL/etc moves, and so on).

It could very easily be argued that Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth are horrendously unbalanced for this game. That's not a moral judgment, it's a fact ("the people MAKING the game" agreed and changed a lot for PAL). Having spikes? Having Downthrow TC's on everyone, Having shines....

You play a top tier, you don't play a character that was already bad and then got further nerfed. So to hear you pass judgment on something that has 0 affect on you makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Comet7]

>bones
>kiddo

i think the best way to decide version is to have it be decided similarly to port priority and stage striking.

 

[Bones0]

Moral issues? Lol calm down there kiddo, 1.2 is still broken and unbalanced....

and so is the PAL version even with all it's revisions.

And they still use 1.0 and 1.1 in large tournaments, I've noticed mostly in AZ and Cali where lower tier characters are used more.

Wobbling was historically counted as a glitch and used to be banned in a ton of major tournaments (still is in Canada, Juggleguy only recently unbanned it, a lot in the midwest still ban it). The ICs glitches are far more game breaking than anything the lower tiers can use in a tournament setting (like Ness's YoYo, YL boomerang catch reset, SDIing out of Samus/Zelda/YL/etc moves, and so on).

It could very easily be argued that Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth are horrendously unbalanced for this game. That's not a moral judgment, it's a fact ("the people MAKING the game" agreed and changed a lot for PAL). Having spikes? Having Downthrow TC's on everyone, Having shines....

You play a top tier, you don't play a character that was already bad and then got further nerfed. So to hear you pass judgment on something that has 0 affect on you makes absolutely no sense.

"Unbalanced" is totally subjective, and the whole point of my post was that we shouldn't be picking a version based on balance. As far as how "broken" it is, 1.2 is objectively less broken. Why do you think they released a newer version? It was to fix glitches and oversights from the old versions...

No reasonable person ever considered wobbling a glitch... Even proponents of banning it like Juggleguy understand it is simply an oversight in how grabs worked. The only ICs glitch I know of is the freeze glitch which is already banned. I have no problem with players using glitches that are in 1.02, but if a glitch was removed from the game in newer versions, you can't possibly think it's okay to FORCE players to play on 1.00 in order to utilize mechanics that were fixed later on.

You can argue the top tiers are unbalanced all you want. It's still subjective and still irrelevant to deciding which version we should use. The morality of this discussion comes into play when players using low tiers want to nerf top tiers/buff their own character by forcing everyone to play on an older version in which they can abuse a glitch that was removed in newer versions.

This decision obviously DOES affect me. If I go against a Samus in bracket (a matchup that is at least very tough for Falco, if not disadvantageous overall), my opponent shouldn't be able to say "Oh yeah, I know you've been playing on 1.2 for basically your whole life because 90% of Melee discs are 1.2, and I understand that you've become accustomed to SDIing out of her up-B, but I'm going to force you to play on this old version of the game where you can't SDI."

Even if you think it's okay to make people play on a certain version to balance the game, who decides how to balance it? Can a Kirby main tell a Ganon main he has to play on PAL where he has a nerfed fair because Kirby loses that matchup? What if two Samus mains are playing a Samus ditto and one of the players is good at SDIing out of up-B but the other is not?

Your whole argument is predicated on the assumption that forcing players to play on older versions improves the quality of the gameplay, but you are totally ignoring that it only improves the quality of the gameplay for one of the players while the other gets shafted. You might want to complain that low tiers get shafted by 1.2, but that is not a decision anyone in this community made, it was a decision by Sakurai and his team when developing the game. 1.2 is the standard version for North America and has been for over a decade.

 

[MookieRah]

This entire argument is why I wish the whole world could simply adopt one version, be it PAL or 1.2. People would whine at first regardless of the pick, but after it settles we'd all be playing the same game and the matter would be settled.

 

[Respect38]

I think it's pretty awesome to see moves actually work effectively when connected, myself. Plenty of high tier characters have options that work effectively, so why is it a disaster when some low and mid tiers have a few more options that actually work as they ought to?

And even if we accept that it should ultimately be Nintendo that dictates the community's direction rather than the community's initiative, why then are we not moving toward playing the PAL version of the game? After all, it continued in 1.2's step of developing the game in the direction where Nintendo viewed Melee as being in a more complete state: other than general buffs and nerfs, they decided that Bowser's down throw should work on all the cast, that Falcon should have an easier gentleman, that Falco shouldn't have a lingering dair spike, that Link shouldn't have a lingering semi-spike on his up-b, that Samus shouldn't have an extended grapple, that Sheik shouldn't have such an effective down throw...

If, despite the fact that PAL Melee is closer to Nintendo's vision for the game, we continue to use NTSC 1.2, then we should at least realize that we're allowing our decision to come down to community initiative, not for some sort of philosophical obligation to play the least "broken" version of the game.

Either way, looking at how Nintendo treats infinites/true combos in Smash 4 [where they are patched out even if they are hard to perform], it's pretty evident that quite a few of the tools that the high tier characters have would have been patched out had Nintendo had the time. We really should be focusing on utilizing the versions that give characters more options, for the sake of a more open metagame, which is why I lean toward either having PAL be the overall standard, or have 1.2 only be utilized if the two players have a gentleman's agreement to play on 1.2. [which is most matchups, anyway]

 

[-ACE-]

Damn. Agreed with "kiddo" 100%.

x|-< (plunder)

 

[MookieRah]

Respect38
I can't speak for Bones, but I'm pretty sure his point was to use the latest Nintendo version available, within reason. PAL melee doesn't work on NTSC equipment without mods, so hosting tournaments in the US under PAL would require some sort of intervention on our part that may or may not be possible to do in an easy, streamlined way.

 

[Respect38]

But that's exactly the point: at that point, for better or for worse, you've shifted the goalposts in that it's no longer about playing on the least broken version of Melee, but to play on what is most convenient for the community.

Whatever excuse you want to come up to justify 1.2 over 1.0, it's just that: an excuse. I would rather us be honest and some up with legitimate reasons for making them have to gentleman 1.0 [opposed to making them have to gentleman 1.2] instead of doing this dishonest attempt to hide your preferences to some sort of logic that isn't even consistent at face value, when you argue that 1.2 is preferable to 1.0 and then turn around and appeal to community's initiative to disregard PAL.

Within 2016 and 2017--as modding is getting easier to do--are we continue going to justify 1.2 over playing PAL, the least "broken" version of the game?

Ultimately, I feel like if we have a completely reasonable way to give mid and low tiers more options [because PAL likely isn't an option right now] then we should have it within our rules to allow those mains to take the initiative and get 1.0 disks for themselves.

 

[-ACE-]

Pardon my ignorance of all the differences in the two versions, but I'll say that anything that completely disables SDI is pretty wack. That would have seemed like something that needed fixing to me as well.

You could say bones is making an excuse, but I'll remind you that he isn't the one saying "the current version of melee is holding me back".

 

[MookieRah]

But that's exactly the point: at that point, for better or for worse, you've shifted the goalposts in that it's no longer about playing on the least broken version of Melee, but to play on what is most convenient for the community.

As someone who has been a TO, what the heck is wrong with that? I also don't see anything wrong with streamlining things to be one version, and it should be a version that people have access to.

when you argue that 1.2 is preferable to 1.0 and then turn around and appeal to community's initiative to disregard PAL.

Explain to me how to get the US to feasibly run PAL, and then explain to me how you will convince the majority of US TO's to switch to PAL, and maybe, MAYBE, you'd have a point here. 1.2 is the latest that the US got. That is not an arbitrary decision at all. PAL currently isn't an option there, much less something to have a real discussion about with people that actually host major events.

 

[Plunder]

Damn. Agreed with "kiddo" 100%.

x|-< (plunder)

Dang you got me gud. But the problem is I'd have to actually care for your trolling and opinions for it to have any affect :/ Which leads to...

Pardon my ignorance of all the differences in the two versions, but I'll say that anything that completely disables SDI is pretty wack. That would have seemed like something that needed fixing to me as well.

You could say bones is making an excuse, but I'll remind you that he isn't the one saying "the current version of melee is holding me back".

No 1.0 just secures multi hit small damage moves to lead into the final hit (which can be SDI'ed still), which is how it's supposed to be programmed. If you're able to so easily get out of Zelda/Pichu's Fsmash, Samus's Up-B, etc....it essentially makes those moves punishable on hit. Which is some of the worst game balancing and design I've ever heard of....it's not like it's even difficult or hard to react to....high tiers have very fast single hit moves while some of the low tiers equivalent strong moves can be easily avoided completely.

That's fine if you agree with Bones's non-sense. If you both are fans of terrible game design and patches that actually make the game progressively worse that IS an opinion, and it's yours to have.

Bones's analogy and comparisons are wonky and biased though, mine are not (if we look at this from a fair game design POV)

Of course Bones is content and doesn't care about this topic.....because 1.1 and 1.2 nerf the other characters and it makes his MUs easier. (And the peach turnip glitch is such a terrible point, it's pretty much the ONLY one and it's about as thin as then come)

I argue the version updates make no sense because it makes ALREADY LOSING MUs EVEN WORSE, tips the scales in the complete wrong directions. The whole point of updates and new versions is to make the game more balanced AND have less glitches. If your argument is that Nintendo intentionally wanted top tiers to get even better, well then that makes even less sense.

It's like putting Mike Tyson (high tiers) in the ring against a 12 year old girl (lower tiers) and then the ref (Nintendo) decides the girl should have one hand behind her back (Version 1.2)

 

[Respect38]

As for disabling SDI; as I've said, it gives characters options that actually work. Plenty of high tiers have options that, when executed properly, leave the opponent with little option otherwise. Why is it such a disaster when low tiers get options like that as well--especially when it doesn't even make them amazing, but only makes them actually effective when they do connect.

Also, I wouldn't claim that version holds me back unless a Fox, Marth, Sheik, or Falco main claimed that they would be "held back" as well by moving to PAL.

Or... wait, are we pretending that this wouldn't be a double-standard, somehow?

As someone who has been a TO, what the heck is wrong with that? I also don't see anything wrong with streamlining things to be one version, and it should be a version that people have access to.


Explain to me how to get the US to feasibly run PAL, and then explain to me how you will convince the majority of US TO's to switch to PAL, and maybe, MAYBE, you'd have a point here. 1.2 is the latest that the US got. That is not an arbitrary decision at all. PAL currently isn't an option there, much less something to have a real discussion about with people that actually host major events.

You misunderstand me.

First off, there's nothing wrong with doing things that are convenient to the community--that's how I think that things ought to be done! [at least, considering what would be "best" for the community, determining what that is would be the part that is a challenge]

I also understand the situation with PAL; my point is only that it ultimately comes down to the fact that it isn't about playing on the least broken version, it's about what works for the community. An argument from "broken" or not is irrelevant, because it's an impossible goal that we can't achieve, because Nintendo is done updating Melee, even though there are still plenty of balance issues with the game.

Unless Bones would be willing to say that he would support making PAL the competitive standard if it were feasible, I don't see why his arguments about v.10 being "broken" add anything to the conversation at all, because otherwise it is nothing but an excuse to move the community in a direction that individually benefits you.

 

[-ACE-]

Bones's analogy and comparisons are wonky

It's like putting Mike Tyson (high tiers) in the ring against a 12 year old girl (lower tiers) and then the ref (Nintendo) decides the girl should have one hand behind her back (Version 1.2)

Lol

 

[Plunder]

It would appear the Melee General section has more trolls than it does worthwhile discussions. Guess that's why people don't really come here anymore and they have to write click-bait news articles for page views.

A shame really.

 

[Spak]

No 1.0 just secures multi hit small damage moves to lead into the final hit (which can be SDI'ed still), which is how it's supposed to be programmed. If you're able to so easily get out of Zelda/Pichu's Fsmash, Samus's Up-B, etc....it essentially makes those moves punishable on hit. Which is some of the worst game balancing and design I've ever heard of....it's not like it's even difficult or hard to react to....high tiers have very fast single hit moves while some of the low tiers equivalent strong moves can be easily avoided completely.

Also, you can SDI out of Pichu's F-Smash in 1.0. The hits never stale below 1%.

 

[-ACE-]

It would appear the Melee General section has more trolls than it does worthwhile discussions. Guess that's why people don't really come here anymore and they have to write click-bait news articles for page views.

A shame really.

I don't really see it that way. If you're referring to me, sure, I joke around some, but overall I deliver honest contributions. People don't really come here because facebook. I thought bones had some good points. The only thing I poked fun at was you calling bones "kiddo" lol, which you have to admit is unnecessary. To me, the biggest issue here is that there is basically already a standard due to the scarcity of 1.0 discs. I really don't think the differences in the versions are huge, but since we're kinda saying they are, it seems weird to force someone to play on a version that is much more rare so that you will have an advantage. Not just the advantage itself, but the high chance that they have not practiced against it, may not own a 1.0 disc or know anyone that does, and/or may be ignorant to most of the differences in the two versions. Imo.

 

[Respect38]

To me, the biggest issue here is that there is basically already a standard due to the scarcity of 1.0 discs.

Isn't the point of the thread that there is a competing standard that doesn't contradict [that is, doesn't rely on the non-scarcity of 1.0 disks] that scarcity, but takes it into consideration by making 1.0 the default, but ultimately leaning back on 1.2 for the large majority of the time?