KishSquared
Smash Master
Those aren't our seeds?
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MELEE-FC10R Legacy...is done!
- Thread starter KishPrime
- Start date
- Status
KishSquared
Smash Master
For those asking, again, we'll aggregate all the results over the next few days and post a formal results thread. In the meantime, here's the top 32:
Melee Singles:
1. Mango
2. Hbox
3. Axe
4. SFAT
5. Kage
6. Hax
7. Kels
8. Darkrain
9. Chillindude
9. Little England
9. Chad
9. VaNz
13. Shroomed
13. Duck
13. Trail
13. Baka4moe
17. CunningKitsune
17. MetA
17. MOJO
17. G$
17. DoH
17. Nite
17. Jake13
17. FrootLoopZ
25. D-rephen
25. TheGoodDoctor
25. Swift Bass
25. MattDotZeb
25. Tink
25. IrishMafia
25. Vudujin
25. BigD
Melee Singles:
1. Mango
2. Hbox
3. Axe
4. SFAT
5. Kage
6. Hax
7. Kels
8. Darkrain
9. Chillindude
9. Little England
9. Chad
9. VaNz
13. Shroomed
13. Duck
13. Trail
13. Baka4moe
17. CunningKitsune
17. MetA
17. MOJO
17. G$
17. DoH
17. Nite
17. Jake13
17. FrootLoopZ
25. D-rephen
25. TheGoodDoctor
25. Swift Bass
25. MattDotZeb
25. Tink
25. IrishMafia
25. Vudujin
25. BigD
chillindude829
Smash Master
why is axe 3rd and 13th LOL
sidefx
Smash Champion
3rd, and 13th :o
kashan beat me to it :D
Little England
Smash Master
SFAT is so good. Got 4th.
Shroomed on the other hand....
Shroomed on the other hand....
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Axe is too good it seems
The fake Axe at 13th is supposed to be Duck, lol. I was wondering why I didn't see his name in there. Fix that **** Jeff!
KishSquared
Smash Master
I did what I did, and I'm not changing it! I said we know what we're doing and we're ALWAYS RIGHT.
Mmmm... my words taste yummy.
Mmmm... my words taste yummy.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Only bad thing was starting on schedule lolololol
clowsui
Smash Legend
robin answer please
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
You really shouldnt have changed it
KishSquared
Smash Master
A "true, fully accurate" tournament should always be a RR. We should have run FC as a 165-man RR pool. Obviously, this doesn't work for time OR for spectating, so a balance has to be struck. You need to draw the line somewhere, and historically that's been at top 32. Most tournaments say that a top 32 bracket is accurate enough.
At FCL we drew the line at 8. It was time-manageable, it was hype, and it was accurate. It was the best of all worlds. 16 and 4 were both options but not as good a compromise, in our opinions. I think most would agree with that.
As for the winners/losers debate, I still fail to understand why people are so focused on that. When I lose 3 matches in R1 pools, I may get a harder R2 pool, but my losses do not carry over. So why are you saying the losses need to carry over from the bracket? That said, we did choose to implement continuous sets as a 'benefit', as you call it, but there are already built-in benefits to staying in winners. People who stayed in winner's bracket played less matches than than those in losers, for example. If LittleEngland had beaten Kels in winners, he wouldn't have had to play Axe for a slot in losers. His punishment was playing Axe, and he lost as a result.
Short answer, it's a pretty big benefit to staying in winners.
At FCL we drew the line at 8. It was time-manageable, it was hype, and it was accurate. It was the best of all worlds. 16 and 4 were both options but not as good a compromise, in our opinions. I think most would agree with that.
As for the winners/losers debate, I still fail to understand why people are so focused on that. When I lose 3 matches in R1 pools, I may get a harder R2 pool, but my losses do not carry over. So why are you saying the losses need to carry over from the bracket? That said, we did choose to implement continuous sets as a 'benefit', as you call it, but there are already built-in benefits to staying in winners. People who stayed in winner's bracket played less matches than than those in losers, for example. If LittleEngland had beaten Kels in winners, he wouldn't have had to play Axe for a slot in losers. His punishment was playing Axe, and he lost as a result.
Short answer, it's a pretty big benefit to staying in winners.
@ clowsui:
At a major like this, the final "X" number of players are so close in skill level that it's in the best interest of the event to have creative control over the ending to the tournament. There's always a risk of seeing a ton of same-region matchups or rematches in the last few sets of an unpredictable double-elimination bracket. No such problem exists in a final round robin; sets we've seen several times before, like SFAT vs Mango and Hungrybox vs Kage, were put aside to secondary recording setups, while the super hyped sets, like SFAT vs Darkrain and Mango vs Darkrain, were thrown onto the stream for everyone to enjoy. At FC, it just so happened that eight was the perfect sweetspot in terms of the final "X" number of players, considering the big names in attendance. Change the final "X" number of players to throw into the round robin depending on how stacked the tourney is.
On a related note, there is probably a tradeoff between matchup hype/legacy/volume/entertainment versus the overall accuracy of placings... this tournament makes me think the scale should be tipped towards the former, because it feels much more important.
At a major like this, the final "X" number of players are so close in skill level that it's in the best interest of the event to have creative control over the ending to the tournament. There's always a risk of seeing a ton of same-region matchups or rematches in the last few sets of an unpredictable double-elimination bracket. No such problem exists in a final round robin; sets we've seen several times before, like SFAT vs Mango and Hungrybox vs Kage, were put aside to secondary recording setups, while the super hyped sets, like SFAT vs Darkrain and Mango vs Darkrain, were thrown onto the stream for everyone to enjoy. At FC, it just so happened that eight was the perfect sweetspot in terms of the final "X" number of players, considering the big names in attendance. Change the final "X" number of players to throw into the round robin depending on how stacked the tourney is.
On a related note, there is probably a tradeoff between matchup hype/legacy/volume/entertainment versus the overall accuracy of placings... this tournament makes me think the scale should be tipped towards the former, because it feels much more important.
_Keno_
Smash Lord
64 results anyone? I want to know how moogle did.
KishSquared
Smash Master
I believe N64 was:
1. Battlecow
2. Moogle
3. Han Solo
Will need to confirm Han won 3rd, but I know 1 and 2 for sure.
1. Battlecow
2. Moogle
3. Han Solo
Will need to confirm Han won 3rd, but I know 1 and 2 for sure.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
Good tournament organizing
Good food
Good homies
Good times
seeya when I seeya and thanks guys
Good food
Good homies
Good times
seeya when I seeya and thanks guys
Zivilyn Bane
Smash Master
Something you guys might consider. I've often thought about the idea of doing pools in final 8 man bracket, and then taking the top 2 and completing a continuation 2 man bracket type thing.
Example, Mango got first and Hbox got 2nd in the pool. They play one more set. Mango wins? It's over. Hbox wins, they go to set 3 just like if it was grand finals.
This will give you the accuracy of doing a round robin for top 8, but also give you the hype you can only get from double elimination grand finals.
Example, Mango got first and Hbox got 2nd in the pool. They play one more set. Mango wins? It's over. Hbox wins, they go to set 3 just like if it was grand finals.
This will give you the accuracy of doing a round robin for top 8, but also give you the hype you can only get from double elimination grand finals.
KishSquared
Smash Master
We're not sarcastic when you're not swearing at us 
Naota21t
Smash Champion
This sounds like a good idea. Or just get top 3 from pools and do a winner's/loser's/grand finals. That makes more sense then ending w/ round robin.
clowsui
Smash Legend
That's what I figured @Rob/Squared, thank you<3
As for Naota, you have to define "sense" in this case. Why does that particular configuration make more "sense" than another? Is it inherently more hype? Or is it more fair? Or does it do something else for the tournament? Etc.
As for Naota, you have to define "sense" in this case. Why does that particular configuration make more "sense" than another? Is it inherently more hype? Or is it more fair? Or does it do something else for the tournament? Etc.
KishSquared
Smash Master
Agreed that it doesn't make more sense, though it's not a bad idea either. As clowsui is alluding to, there's no wrong answer. By doing it that way, people get the 'double-elim' feeling people accustomed to, and it also reduces the risk of an anti-climactic ending to the tournament.
On the flipside, you're giving the #2 seed a second chance at life that no one else in the top8 RR was given. A lot of people are complaining about fairness, yet we're now suggesting that the #2 player gets another shot against #1. That's a heck of a deal for #2.
On the flipside, you're giving the #2 seed a second chance at life that no one else in the top8 RR was given. A lot of people are complaining about fairness, yet we're now suggesting that the #2 player gets another shot against #1. That's a heck of a deal for #2.
The point to double-elimination isn't to give people 2 shots at the same player, though that's something that typically ends up happening. The point is to reduce the extreme effects that a single matchup can have on bracket results.
Frankly, I hate the end of double-elimination tournaments, where the same players often just play 2 or even 3 times. I hate rematches within the same tournament. Neither add anything to the event for me. Having 2 finals sets (including a rematch) instead of 1 waters down the significance of each moment. More does not always equal better.
The overall point to the system was to get the Top 8 players into a round-robin with as few rematches as possible. To avoid the rematch syndrome, we used the bracket continuation concept. After that, it's one match against each of the other players for all the marbles.
People play single-elimination events in a TON of sports and games. Within the context of this community, double-elimination really only became the standard because:
1. It gives people more matches for their travel
2. Individual character matchups play a big role
There is no law of nature that says that Smash Brothers tournaments MUST be double-elim, it simply became the standard for the above reasons. And a final-RR negates BOTH of the above concerns.
80% of what I saw in people's comments during APEX 2012 grand finals was that people wished it would end or left early (though I enjoyed it). Double-elimination isn't what generates hype. Top players and top matches generate hype, no matter what the format is.
But yeah, no one else should use this format because we patented it, so you'd owe us $1,000,000 of nachos.
Frankly, I hate the end of double-elimination tournaments, where the same players often just play 2 or even 3 times. I hate rematches within the same tournament. Neither add anything to the event for me. Having 2 finals sets (including a rematch) instead of 1 waters down the significance of each moment. More does not always equal better.
The overall point to the system was to get the Top 8 players into a round-robin with as few rematches as possible. To avoid the rematch syndrome, we used the bracket continuation concept. After that, it's one match against each of the other players for all the marbles.
People play single-elimination events in a TON of sports and games. Within the context of this community, double-elimination really only became the standard because:
1. It gives people more matches for their travel
2. Individual character matchups play a big role
There is no law of nature that says that Smash Brothers tournaments MUST be double-elim, it simply became the standard for the above reasons. And a final-RR negates BOTH of the above concerns.
80% of what I saw in people's comments during APEX 2012 grand finals was that people wished it would end or left early (though I enjoyed it). Double-elimination isn't what generates hype. Top players and top matches generate hype, no matter what the format is.
But yeah, no one else should use this format because we patented it, so you'd owe us $1,000,000 of nachos.
Han Solo
Banned via Warnings
Yup, Moogle beat me twice in bracket.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Top-8 RR was awesome. I'm so sad I couldn't go
This makes me wonder how a tourney that's entirely RR would go. Like instead of doing top-4 advance to 32-man bracket in R2, make it top-3 advance to R3 pools for a total of 24 people. Then replace the bracket with 4 pools of 6, top-2 advance. Or something like that...
This makes me wonder how a tourney that's entirely RR would go. Like instead of doing top-4 advance to 32-man bracket in R2, make it top-3 advance to R3 pools for a total of 24 people. Then replace the bracket with 4 pools of 6, top-2 advance. Or something like that...
You can't ever do top-2 advance or you eliminate someone tied for the best record in the pool in a 3-way tie.
Also, I originally wanted to do it that way, but then you get a large number of rematches. I think it would be hard to find a better system that gets you to a Top-8.
Also, I originally wanted to do it that way, but then you get a large number of rematches. I think it would be hard to find a better system that gets you to a Top-8.
_Keno_
Smash Lord
Sweet, thanks.
As for top-8 RR, I dont see why anyone's complaining about that. Benefits for trying to stay in winner's bracket? Less likely to be bumped out before you get to the RR. I dont see what problem is.
This seemed like, from everything I've heard, an awesome tournament. I'll have to be at the next one...if there is a next.
emilywaves
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2012
- Messages
- 83
Super fun tourney guys! It was awesome seeing some old buds and meeting new people. Thank you so much Kishes and event staff Joshu and Iggy and everyone else who help put this together. And thanks for letting me a part of it! Checking in people is so fun and I liked meeting everyone
Tim/Jeff, when can we get the MELEE-FC10R cover screen to be used at the beginning of all the recorded vids?
kd-
Smash Lord
A variation of this would be the Swiss Style format, which some have already advocated this. Sounds like a Swiss Style until a top x is found and then straight round robin would be pretty cool.Top-8 RR was awesome. I'm so sad I couldn't go
This makes me wonder how a tourney that's entirely RR would go. Like instead of doing top-4 advance to 32-man bracket in R2, make it top-3 advance to R3 pools for a total of 24 people. Then replace the bracket with 4 pools of 6, top-2 advance. Or something like that...
Edit: I can't help but draw comparisons to big Street Fighter tournaments like Evo. I wonder how they would seem, hype/fairness if the top 8 was a round robin...
It would've been really neat if instead of having only one match displayed on screen, if there were four corners, with all four matches going on at once.
It was hard having to run around and see all the hype that was happening at once. lol.
Zivilyn Bane
Smash Master
Nintendude: One of the earlier SMYM tournaments (either 6 or 7, I believe) was nothing but pools. Finished into a top 8 I believe.
I like Swiss also (spent many years playing tournament Chess where Swiss is the primary system used). I've always felt that for Melee, brackets are better though, again because of the hype factor. I may one day use Swiss in one of my tournaments.
I like Swiss also (spent many years playing tournament Chess where Swiss is the primary system used). I've always felt that for Melee, brackets are better though, again because of the hype factor. I may one day use Swiss in one of my tournaments.
KishSquared
Smash Master
Just so everyone knows, the reason for the delay on results is that Tio crashed and burned on us, hardcore. We did everything but PM entirely manually, so lot of work will be required to post full results.
No problem man, take your time. I'm surprised your mind hasn't exploded from all of the data you have to handle :x
clowsui
Smash Legend
I'm rewatching some of the stream archive stuff now.
Others have said it before me, but whatever:
Darkrain has some of the most visceral strings/combos ever. He just takes the most gruesome approach possible and violently jams it down the opponent's throat. Are All American Heroes supposed to be this scary?
Others have said it before me, but whatever:
Darkrain has some of the most visceral strings/combos ever. He just takes the most gruesome approach possible and violently jams it down the opponent's throat. Are All American Heroes supposed to be this scary?
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Go big or go home. He's One of the people's champs
Darkrain is human. That's what compels us to cheer so much for him. You can feel his pain when his stock gets nair planed to death, and you can feel his excitement when he hits five knees in a row on Mute City. He doesn't have the gimmicks, the overwhelming tech skill, or the fastest movement... just years of experience and pure willpower.
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