MELEE-FC Tournament Ruleset Discussion

[KishSquared]

ya, ur right, u just johned on urself and made my point stronger. thank you, I look forward to pwning the **** out of u on a legit stagelisnt.

Odd, I specifically recall beating you on Yoshi Story at FRI2. Seems I don't need janky stages.

Oooooooooooooh snap

 

[leffen]

lol this stagelist is just weak

at least the old one had something unique and had alright reasoning for it

this stagelist will just be praised because everyone is so ****ing happy that the previous one is gone.


also: europe underperforms at one tournament which had no warmup and still outplaced the MW =MW > Europe? Cmon, *****es.

Every single other national we have ***** you in results, just ****ing imagine if we had all our top players at one
The only reason you would ever win is because you'd have a larger amount of your top players at the american nationals


also: darkrain never did ****. he was, and is, just a overhyped falcon

 

[PEEF!]

Might as well post this here. In response to the feedback we've received, we've decided to go with a MBR5-stage starter list, with 4 counterpicks and 2 permanent bans.

Starters
FoD
BF
FD
DL64
YS

Counterpicks
Pokemon Stadium
Mute City
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise

The ICs are now FORCED to play on Mute, Brinstar or Cruise (one of their 3 worst), which they weren't in the past ruleset.... This actually is probably worse. -___-

also: darkrain never did ****. he was, and is, just a overhyped falcon

Please make all of our days, and moneymatch him at this so we can get some serious enjoyment out of a terrific beatdown of another cocky space animal.

 

[leffen]

^so is marth
loool

terrible ruleset again

 

[Froggy]

The ICs are now FORCED to play on Mute, Brinstar or Cruise, which they weren't in the past ruleset.... -___-

God, you're annoying. You and Leffen are just annoying now. They altered the ruleset to cater to people like you, quit *****ing already.

@Kishes: I'm guessing this ruleset is final? I just really hate rainbow cruise, and of all the stages old stages that remain I'm confident this is the one most people have a problem with.
I'm sure you know that many of the stages are banned because Fox is theorized to be overpowered and his camping strategies would be too strong. Rainbow Cruise is like the only stage in the game were that has been proven. We've actually had foxes running around stages outcamping to win, it's not a theory with RC. Any chance that stage can be replaced? Like we mentioned Greengreens was never discussed. Hell I'd prefer Pokefloats over rainbow cruse. People only counter pick that stage, with the intention of playing gay.

 

[PEEF!]

God, you're annoying. You and Leffen are just annoying now. They altered the ruleset to cater to people like you, quit *****ing already.

I can assure you that I was not in mind with this new stagelist, because on the old one, we at least got these 3 banned. Now we will have to play on one of them. It isn't me being annoying, I'm stating a fact about the result of the ruleset. I'm not going to argue about it anymore though, just needed to be pointed out.

I think the new ruleset was mostly in response to complaints about Japes an MK2, not "people like me" (Trail and I).

 

[leffen]

the old one was DIFFERENT, and a good try at different but a horrible national ruleset

this one is just a abomination of a good ruleset and the old one

 

[ORLY]

Japes and MK2 are gone now

I hope you whiners are happy D:

 

[KishSquared]

Once again, the concept of a counterpick has been lost. We will never cater to people who insist on eliminating any stage that could possibly be a hard-counter to their character. That is not competitive play by our standards. That is simply weak.

First stage will be a neutral, determined by stage strike. You will NOT play on a stage that disadvantages your character unless you choose to do so.

If you win on the neutral, your opponent will get to counter your character. If the stage hard-counters your character, you can change your character. Do NOT claim it's the fault of the ruleset if you choose to stick with your disadvantaged character.

Finally, you then get to counterpick your opponent. The advantage is now yours.

^^^^^
This is Smash. If you want to play every stage on FD, go play Street Fighter.

 

[Strong Badam]

My char's disadvantaged on every stage against almost every relevant character.

Kishes, can you ban all stages, and have us play on Race to the Finish via AR?

 

[Van.]

The melee community is not strong enough to survive having a hyped international tournament ruined by an out of touch TO pandering to a niche of old school players. Popular opinion clearly doesn’t support this ruleset. Using it would result in a diminuitive, unexciting event.

Kish-- your first priority should be what those who will attend your tournament want. It should be clear to you now that the majority of them don’t support this ruleset. You believe that you’re logic is sound, and that this is a workable stagelist. That should be of no consequence. Even if you are “in the right”, you still have to accept that people are not open-minded or humble enough to accept your arguments at face value.

Of course, FC is your tournament. You alone choose how to run it. Just realize that using this ruleset will hurt the community.


Note: do a poll, MBR5 + PS vs. your stagelist in another thread if you don’t believe me

 

[KishSquared]

Even if you are “in the right”, you still have to accept that people are not open-minded or humble enough to accept your arguments at face value.

You're right, and we obviously already did this. We've been discussing rules for 2+ weeks and collected a lot of opinions in this thread. We've eliminated the two most hated stages. We've ensured you'll play an MBR5 neutral first round. We've given the option of banning TWO stages.

People who aren't happy with this ruleset will not be happy with any compromise. They want MBR5 or MBR5+PS. Nothing else will make them happy.

Just realize that using this ruleset will hurt the community.

I want a bullet list of how this stagelist 'hurts the community'. What the heck does that even mean? I've heard it from others as well.

I guess we're responsible for world hunger and middle-east aggression as well? Dang, this stagelist is POWERFUL

Note: do a poll, MBR5 + PS vs. your stagelist in another thread if you don’t believe me

We can't do a poll because people will vote even if they aren't coming, so it would turn into a marketing campaign. Your belief is that people coming to FC want different rules. If you truly believe that, then start a petition among registered entrants. You're free to do so.

But no, I don't believe you. I believe that 75% of the people coming to FC will be perfectly content with the rules. I believe that 10% of people want the original stagelist instead. 15% of the people will want nothing but the MBR5, so there's nothing we can do to accommodate that.

And we might well lose 5 people who won't come because of the ruleset. It will be their loss, because FC is going to be amazing.

 

[KishSquared]

@Kishes: I'm guessing this ruleset is final? I just really hate rainbow cruise, and of all the stages old stages that remain I'm confident this is the one most people have a problem with.
I'm sure you know that many of the stages are banned because Fox is theorized to be overpowered and his camping strategies would be too strong. Rainbow Cruise is like the only stage in the game were that has been proven. We've actually had foxes running around stages outcamping to win, it's not a theory with RC. Any chance that stage can be replaced? Like we mentioned Greengreens was never discussed. Hell I'd prefer Pokefloats over rainbow cruse. People only counter pick that stage, with the intention of playing gay.

All those stages are Fox-strong. But this is why you have two stage bans. You'll never play on RC if you don't want to play there

 

[Hax]

darkrain never did ****. he was, and is, just a overhyped falcon

i don't even have words i am so dumbfounded what did i just read

 

[Morin0]

My char's disadvantaged on every stage against almost every relevant character.

Kishes, can you ban all stages, and have us play on Race to the Finish via AR?

DK in Race to the Finish? Good luck.

Your character is completely flawed

edit: nvM

 

[Strong Badam]

I'll argue very strongly that DK vs. Peach is at least 80-20 on Race to the Finish.

 

[Juggleguy]

also: darkrain never did ****. he was, and is, just a overhyped falcon

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've never understood the appeal of criticizing things for the sole sake of criticizing them. People are weird. :\

But yeah, people should never ever be forced to play on stages that are bad for their characters. I mean, imagine having to actually learn how to perform on a stage to mask your character's weaknesses! It's not like Armada has ever beaten a Fox on Pokesmon Stadium, after all. It's just not fair.

 

[Kal]

I do have a question: if we are banning **** because people complain enough, what are the odds I can lobby for Pokémon Stadium to be replaced by something fun? Like Pokéfloats. I mean, we have five boring stages already. Why do the scrubs boring people get to have it their way and get a sixth boring stage?

I can come up with the same type of sophist nonsense the pro-ban crowd has been arguing if that will convince anyone, but I think the only way to get this ball rolling is to complain loud enough. So who's with me? Pokémon Stadium shouldn't even be legal, so let's get some Pokéfloats up in this *****.

 

[Morin0]

I'm gonna stick to my guns about what I said in the Melee ruleset thread.

Whatever ruleset you give me, I'm gonna play it. And I'm gonna defeat you.

Spoiler

sucka

 

[Beat!]

So who's with me?

I think this is where you may run into some trouble.


Whoa, I think this is the first time I post in this thread. *paper streamers*

 

[Bieber]

dude peef being annoying as fuhk in this thread

MM me at this?

 

[leffen]

I've never understood the appeal of criticizing things for the sole sake of criticizing them. People are weird. :\

But yeah, people should never ever be forced to play on stages that are bad for their characters. I mean, imagine having to actually learn how to perform on a stage to mask your character's weaknesses! It's not like Armada has ever beaten a Fox on Pokesmon Stadium, after all. It's just not fair.

I hope you're not serious about any of this. esp the last sentence.



also I love how everyone answers my statement about darkrain being overrated with "LOL HOW CAN YOU NOT AGREE WITH THE PUBLIC OPINION OMG".

What has he REALLY done, except for doing a above average combo video and do combos that people remember. If he had any outstanding achievements that would make him a player of pc chris/kdj/ken/azen/m2k/yougettheidea then you'd be just be telling me them

and no hax, the fact that falcon requires infinite skill is not a good argument

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

also: darkrain never did ****. he was, and is, just a overhyped falcon

 

[BigD!!!]

leffen, you are a bit of a hypocrite

if the standards you apply to everyone outside of europe were applied to europe as well, you'd be left with armada being the only worthwhile player to ever appear in the region

you say people are bad unless theyre among the top 10 players of all time, but then ignore the fact that with the exception of armada absolutely nobody in europe has come even close to that level

it doesnt even make me angry that you think you can get away with such bias, it just disappoints me that you put forth so little effort to present something logical

 

[leffen]

leffen, you are a bit of a hypocrite

if the standards you apply to everyone outside of europe were applied to europe as well, you'd be left with armada being the only worthwhile player to ever appear in the region

you say people are bad unless theyre among the top 10 players of all time, but then ignore the fact that with the exception of armada absolutely nobody in europe has come even close to that level

it doesnt even make me angry that you think you can get away with such bias, it just disappoints me that you put forth so little effort to present something logical

lol.

im not saying that europe is the best region or anything of the sort... that was never the point. The point was that MW have had no top top players, which they have not. Darkrain does not meet the requirements for my definition of it at least.

also, how have ek/amsah not come close to that? I can't at least see any arguments for Darkrain doing better than they have. iirc even helios was close to beating darkrain

its sad that everything 90% of americans say about europe is based around the few nationals played in another region, in a different game. To see anyone acknowledge of europe's existence before Genesis 1 is extremely rare lol

did you guys hear about that one american who traveled to europe to "win a couple of tournaments" before G1 LOL.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

lol kishes, making people play on funny stages since 2003


*both brothers play top tier

 

[Wake]

Pretty sure ShroudedOne's post was sarcastic, Leffen.

 

[Strong Badam]

darkrain placed top 8 at FCD and genesis 1
???

 

[Van.]

You're right, and we obviously already did this. We've been discussing rules for 2+ weeks and collected a lot of opinions in this thread. We've eliminated the two most hated stages. We've ensured you'll play an MBR5 neutral first round. We've given the option of banning TWO stages.

People who aren't happy with this ruleset will not be happy with any compromise. They want MBR5 or MBR5+PS. Nothing else will make them happy.



I want a bullet list of how this stagelist 'hurts the community'. What the heck does that even mean? I've heard it from others as well.

I guess we're responsible for world hunger and middle-east aggression as well? Dang, this stagelist is POWERFUL



We can't do a poll because people will vote even if they aren't coming, so it would turn into a marketing campaign. Your belief is that people coming to FC want different rules. If you truly believe that, then start a petition among registered entrants. You're free to do so.

But no, I don't believe you. I believe that 75% of the people coming to FC will be perfectly content with the rules. I believe that 10% of people want the original stagelist instead. 15% of the people will want nothing but the MBR5, so there's nothing we can do to accommodate that.

And we might well lose 5 people who won't come because of the ruleset. It will be their loss, because FC is going to be amazing.

Here's your bullet list:
-- It will prolong the time we haven't had a hype international tournament to the point where it becomes the longest stretch in history.

Whether or not you're coming to the tournament is dependent on the ruleset, so I don't even know why you bothered posting that lol.

Believe me, way, way more than 15% of the people considering this tournament want MBR5. Do a poll or don't. Care about the truth or grandstand. Your call.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Here's your bullet list:
-- It will prolong the time we haven't had a hype international tournament to the point where it becomes the longest stretch in history.

Whether or not you're coming to the tournament is dependent on the ruleset, so I don't even know why you bothered posting that lol.

Believe me, way, way more than 15% of the people considering this tournament want MBR5. Do a poll or don't. Care about the truth or grandstand. Your call.

lol i told Tim to do a poll, just to really see wuts what.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Please don´t complain about ICs on the counterpickstages. They can win on brinstar and RC, as Wobbles has proven multiple times against "broken charaters on those stages), meaning peach on brinstar and Fox on RC. TBH Brinstar might even be better for ICs then FD against peach due to the semilow platformlayout and wierd floatangles.

wobbles, fly, chu, me.... ur not gonna tell me our win % doesn't go down on those stages, if u do u need to learn another character cuz u dont know wtf ur talkin about.

 

[Strong Badam]

he never said that. his wording was "ICs can win on those stages"
srsly trail? lulz

 

[Van.]

This is how the community is going to die. We aren't going to abruptly, collectively put down our controllers. We're just going to spend so much time without a huge tourney that everyone becomes okay with it, then nationals are going to dry up, and then regionals and locals.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

he never said that. his wording was "ICs can win on those stages"
srsly trail? lulz

he told me not to complain about them and then tried to say that the ic would be better on another stage than ****ing FD lol... i had to let him know he is full of ****. ****ing FD lol....

 

[BigD!!!]

"being close to beating darkrain" meaning getting comfortably 2-0'd once? ive been closer to beating chu, and that doesnt make me roughly the same level as him

i dunno what ek has done besides beat other europeans, but amsah hasnt done anything that multiple mw players havent done, i'll start back in 2007 because im a little fuzzy on stuff before that

pound 2: jiano got 3rd, drephen got 5th
fcd: drephen got 4th, vidjo got 5th, darkrain got 7th
oc3: drephen got 5th
viva la smashtaclysm: drephen got 4th or 5th, beat m2k
pound 3: vidjo 5th, darkrain 7th, drephen 9th
genesis: darkrain 7th
pound 4: darkrain 9th i think? cant remember exactly

compared to

pound 4: amsah 4th or 5th i think?

you can cite some european tournaments where amsah beat some players who maybe got top 32 at US tournaments at best and lost to armada, but then we could include players like dope, tink, trail, cunning, sliq, kels, and many other mw players who took sets off of notable players as well. i didnt include any of them because i decided to limit the list to solely people who had done something comparable to amsah, e.g. top 10 at a major national.

its really not even close to comparable, armada is better than anyone from the mw has ever been, i'll give you that in a second. but mw has produced more good players than europe has overall, and its not that close.

 

[leffen]

darkrain placed top 8 at FCD and genesis 1
???

which FCD? All i find is one where he placed 17th

also yeah, he placed top 8 at a national. How is he any different from the tons of other players that have done the same?

did he actually win any big nationals? curious

 

[Lovage]

ya europe owns remember when they flew out 15 people for apex 2012 and they all pwned da bracket dat was cray

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

which FCD? All i find is one where he placed 17th

also yeah, he placed top 8 at a national. How is he any different from the tons of other players that have done the same?

not euro players outside of armada, thats for sure. I dont think you realize how hard it is to get top 10 at nationals on a consistent basis.

 

[Beat!]

ya europe owns remember when they flew out 15 people for apex 2012 and they all pwned da bracket dat was cray

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