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MELEE-FC Tournament Ruleset Discussion

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,833
toph i disagree

the old rules had a random first match selected, with striking i dont think there should be a need to differentiate between neutral and counterpick

to do so is necessarily subjective; is it more difficult for fox to beat peach on brinstar or for peach to beat fox on stadium? which is worse for falcon vs peach, fountain of dreams or brinstar? youre proposing we give priority to some counterpicks that are legitimately just as strong as the counterpicks you think are too strong
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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Big D beat me to a lot of this. Yeah, we're pretty much dialed into that sentiment at least, as you'll see shortly. I'll lay out our thinking one last time just for the heck of it with a bit of history tacked in.

The original reason for having "neutral" starter stages at all back in the day was not because the plat stages were considered necessarily superior, but because we used a random select system for the first round. With limited stages and one ban each, logically the thought was that by doing this, you limit the effect of the randomness and give people an idea of what to expect during the first round so you don't get drastically swung matchups in round 1 in a situation where you had no control. While relative neutrality was a factor, it wasn't nearly that so much as the need for an expectation going into the match.

With the advent of the stage strike system, it changed the game. Now, you arrive at a median for the matchup every single time, without randomness. Plus, it is determined by the players themselves. Our thinking was that, logically, this should allow an expansion of the stage list to all competitive stages. With the randomness eliminated, and a median stage meant to be a representation of the actual matchup in the first round, logically that suggests that the more diversity in the stages you have on, the better the approximation of the median should be.

Of course, this suggests in itself that attempting to balance the cast is not of interest at all, and rather, the primary interest is to include as much variety in stage conditions as possible to test the widest variety of player skills. Whether or not you agree with this sentiment comes down to your philosophy of how you experience the game. I don't put much stock in which stage the Ice Climbers specifically end up on, just like I don't for Yoshi, Pichu, and Fox. If they're viable characters, the median stages will work out well enough, if not, they won't, same as it does under a MBR5 ruleset.

I totally admit that it’s an idealistic view about the game, and clearly there are "risks" involved, if you want to call them that, of top-tiered characters rising to dominance. Yet, there was no evidence of that in the past and no one stepped up to the plate and provided any, so it's hard to consider it as more than theorycrafting. I believe that trying to force balance with rulesets is a bit silly, as we've just discussed, because so much of it is opinion-based. Even in this thread, there have been disagreements on if this ruleset favors space animals, floaties, or people who change characters freely. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the ruleset would've probably favored the player who was playing the best that day.

Ultimately, Smash is a platform fighter where stage variety is a huge aspect of gameplay, but at the same time, it also gives us the option to change our experience of the game freely. If nothing else, I hope that this discussion has reminded people that it’s ok to think about the game differently, and that no single person or entity owns this game. We ourselves have run both 6-stage-only tournaments and 10-stage random select with 10 additional CPs tournaments. Going BF-only occasionally is fine by us, but if that’s your only experience of Smash, we think you might be missing out on the a part of the soul of what makes Smash unique.

Anyway, with everything wrapping up, I wanted to thank you all for the discussion. We’ll have the new rules up within a few hours. At that point, I look forward to turning our attention toward making FC into the Best Tournament Eva’, yet again, and we hope you’ll all be there.
 

HoChiMinhTrail

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
4,731
Location
Michigan State/Chicago, Il
Whoa, international trashtalk. Sounds like we need a MW vs Europe crew battle at FC :)

I do think that people have the mindset of wanting to make it so people never need to switch characters. The old school line of thought was always, always to keep the neutral set non-character-limiting, but then to allow counterpicks to decimate particular characters precisely because of advanced slobs. Like I said earlier, being 'forced' to play ICs on RC is not a limitation of the game, it's a limitation of the player. Why the HECK are you playing ICs on RC??

New school thought (again, generalizing here) seems to be that a player should never be hard-forced into changing characters. I heavily disagree with this and would argue that the 'better' player could be judged based on how many characters they know, but I also recognize that it's a subjective argument. Trail disagrees, but Trail is biased :p
I would agree if it weren't for the fact that the player counterpicking me is rarely using a different character than their main to fight me on their counter stage. While I generally do play more chars in tourney than the people that used to defeat me on those stages, I'm still pitting my 2ndary against their main. It's not like we are both using our 2ndaries on their counterpick. I used my 2ndaries pretty much every tourney set when those stages were on in the past; how often did you use your 2ndaries in tourney Jeff? I don't think there is a problem with counterpicks, I don't think i spoke against them being on. I just dont like them on for the initial game of the set, cuz as I stated, if I lose that first game I'm at a pretty big disadvantage. Ic should be taken into consideration when devising a stage list, what is the fun in narrowing the number of chars people can play competitively?
 

SypherPhoenix

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,563
Location
Fairfax, VA
"greatest number of people happy"...

Is this even ****ing english, where do you think you are? Real life?... This is smashboards son, we are in super theory world now son, get used to it. Logic prevails, and if they think mk2 should be legal, logically, other stages that are just as "random" as that should be legal.

You're not understanding what this is toph... This isn't about making people happy, the kishes are drawing a line in the sand.... This is bigger than fc, its bigger than us now.
oh my ****ing lol

i love you mahone

i love you bro
 

Big_R

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
2,006
Location
Columbus, Oh
I would agree if it weren't for the fact that the player counterpicking me is rarely using a different character than their main to fight me on their counter stage. While I generally do play more chars in tourney than the people that used to defeat me on those stages, I'm still pitting my 2ndary against their main. It's not like we are both using our 2ndaries on their counterpick. I used my 2ndaries pretty much every tourney set when those stages were on in the past; how often did you use your 2ndaries in tourney Jeff? I don't think there is a problem with counterpicks, I don't think i spoke against them being on. I just dont like them on for the initial game of the set, cuz as I stated, if I lose that first game I'm at a pretty big disadvantage. Ic should be taken into consideration when devising a stage list, what is the fun in narrowing the number of chars people can play competitively?
ok you vs a fox.

they ban FD, DL64, and say FoD.

You ban Cruise, maybe mk2....mayyybe brinstar? but which fox will take u to brinstar...

so you have mute, japes, yoshi, stadium, BF,

you strike mute, they strike bf, you strike japes they strike yoshi's.

so first match you end up on stadium. you can't get past that?

and even out of thise 5 stages what will they counterpick u to that is so broken between mute, japes, yoshi, and stadium and bf....as fox?

if they switch then they are a secondary and your argument is out the window.

so is the initial starting point THAT much worse than the usual battlefield, which used to be hated by all spacies back in the day but has just become standard now?

ICs are always at a disadvantage, because u play...ICs...

this seems more indictivtive of the reality of the game. not some cushy ruleset ppl got spoiled by.


also if u use ur secondarys every set then doesn't that make them a little more than secondaries...
 

HoChiMinhTrail

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
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Location
Michigan State/Chicago, Il
ok you vs a fox.

they ban FD, DL64, and say FoD.

You ban Cruise, maybe mk2....mayyybe brinstar? but which fox will take u to brinstar...

so you have mute, japes, yoshi, stadium, BF,

you strike mute, they strike bf, you strike japes they strike yoshi's.

so first match you end up on stadium. you can't get past that?

and even out of thise 5 stages what will they counterpick u to that is so broken between mute, japes, yoshi, and stadium and bf....as fox?

if they switch then they are a secondary and your argument is out the window.

so is the initial starting point THAT much worse than the usual battlefield, which used to be hated by all spacies back in the day but has just become standard now?

ICs are always at a disadvantage, because u play...ICs...

this seems more indictivtive of the reality of the game. not some cushy ruleset ppl got spoiled by.


also if u use ur secondarys every set then doesn't that make them a little more than secondaries...
***** I **** better than anyone on these ****ing boards, u see me now? i see you u ***** bird's eye view *****. I'm more against the neutrals being this way due to the time and annoyance factor of doing this the whole damn tourney. no reason to put this **** in just kuz u ****

abu stfu ur not midwest ur just some little ****** that pretends he is man enough to be midwest, outside of armada midwest ****s on europe all day, regardless ur still a ******.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
abu stfu ur not midwest ur just some little ****** that pretends he is man enough to be midwest, outside of armada midwest ****s on europe all day, regardless ur still a ******.
Maybe everyone would get to see that if both regions actually made brackets. :awesome:
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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Might as well post this here. In response to the feedback we've received, we've decided to go with a MBR5-stage starter list, with 4 counterpicks and 2 permanent bans.

Starters
FoD
BF
FD
DL64
YS

Counterpicks
Pokemon Stadium
Mute City
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise

Please see the information packet at www.meleefc.com if you want to see the details, though nothing else has really changed. Going forward, we are excited to focus on the hype and excitement that MELEE-FC can bring to Smash, and we hope to have you on board! Thanks again to all who participated in this discussion, and have a great weekend!
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
Discussion's probably over, but...

I would agree if it weren't for the fact that the player counterpicking me is rarely using a different character than their main to fight me on their counter stage. While I generally do play more chars in tourney than the people that used to defeat me on those stages, I'm still pitting my 2ndary against their main. It's not like we are both using our 2ndaries on their counterpick. I used my 2ndaries pretty much every tourney set when those stages were on in the past; how often did you use your 2ndaries in tourney Jeff? I don't think there is a problem with counterpicks, I don't think i spoke against them being on. I just dont like them on for the initial game of the set, cuz as I stated, if I lose that first game I'm at a pretty big disadvantage. Ic should be taken into consideration when devising a stage list, what is the fun in narrowing the number of chars people can play competitively?
You're stating the obvious. I play a top tier character, which could well be defined by having flexibility. Fox and friends have very few counterpicks, both from a stage and character perspective. Top tiers have disadvantages, sure, but they're rarely faced with a situation where they'll get decimated.

Not only are ICs rated lower, they're a completely unique character. You have an AI on your team! You place your fate partially in the hands of a CPU every single match. ICs will face even harder challenges when the CPU can't handle a situation. That practically mandates a secondary character, doesn't it?

Well, unless you ban every stage where an IC CPU has a hard time, which is what you're suggesting :p Isn't it objectively better to leave a character behind rather than banning a bunch of stages on his behalf?

Not that I particularly care. I play Fox, after all. I don't need a secondary.
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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Ironically, this is the only game that Jeff doesn't play a giant brawler-type character.

Wait for Project M tournament.
 

baka4moé

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
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Richmond, TX
hey kishes, thanks for the revision, it certainly looks a lot better imo and i am really hyped for this!

i have quick clarification question. are there still going to be 11 legal stages for teams? if so, do people still only get 2 bans, or 3? cause the rules say that we get to ban 2 stages out of the 9 available stages, which isnt true for teams based on the packet online.

again though, thanks for this, im really looking forward to fc now! :)
 

KishPrime

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Yeah, still leaning towards the 11, and not sure on bans for that yet. Spent most of my thinking/debating/discussion time on singles.

Heck, I'd love to get Green Greens back on in there somehow but I get the impression people won't let me. :( I've had some awesome matches there, both good and horrible.
 

baka4moé

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Messages
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oh ok, well thanks for the response. if u do 11 stages thered still be 3 bans each right?

imo doubles might as well be 9 stages too, makes singles and doubles uniform, and id personally take out mk2 and corneria, but thats just me. so im guessing therell still be another (albeit small) revision to finalize doubles yeah?

and yeah idk about green greens haha
 

Froggy

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Yeah, still leaning towards the 11, and not sure on bans for that yet. Spent most of my thinking/debating/discussion time on singles.

Heck, I'd love to get Green Greens back on in there somehow but I get the impression people won't let me. :( I've had some awesome matches there, both good and horrible.
IDK, I think a lot of people would prefer GreenGreens over, Rainbow cruise and Mute City. In fact when people were complaining about the stages, I don't think anyone even mentioned Greengreens(it may not have been included though).
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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In my No-Johns ruleset, I put MK1 in the "literally no idea how this stage would go in the modern game" category.
 

RaphaelRobo

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
2,833
I'm not going to FC, so kept out of this whole discussion, but I just wanted to pop in and say I miss the old ruleset. I thought it was really cool and unique. This ruleset is just too normal.

That's all. I'm not going to check this again, since like I said, I won't be at FC, but I wanted to voice my support for the greater variety in stages.
 

Bl@ckChris

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i think that's about proper, kishprime. i...definitely have no idea how that stage would work. i feel like as ganon (or really any character) i could live forever just teching off of things...but then again it has walkoff edges so it's just...weird.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Aug 6, 2006
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Montreal, Quebec
Let's just say generally you'll find yourself in the position Ganon doesn't want to be. lol.

But I like this new ruleset.. 2 bans huh.. good enough for me! =D Ban.. FD and Mutecity all the way.
 

KishSquared

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Osceola, IN
MK1 was always a strong counter against Eddie back in the day. Not that we were actually good in 2003, but Ganon did poorly on MK1 in that era's metagame.
 

KishSquared

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Might as well post this here. In response to the feedback we've received, we've decided to go with a MBR5-stage starter list, with 4 counterpicks and 2 permanent bans.

Starters
FoD
BF
FD
DL64
YS

Counterpicks
Pokemon Stadium
Mute City
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise

Please see the information packet at www.meleefc.com if you want to see the details, though nothing else has really changed. Going forward, we are excited to focus on the hype and excitement that MELEE-FC can bring to Smash, and we hope to have you on board! Thanks again to all who participated in this discussion, and have a great weekend!
There you go!
 

Metà

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 20, 2006
Messages
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Coquitlam (Vancouver), BC
that is a legit stage list. i can't believe we actually used to use that stage list with only one ban....

but wait, what does the doubles stage list look like?
 

HoChiMinhTrail

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
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Michigan State/Chicago, Il
Discussion's probably over, but...



You're stating the obvious. I play a top tier character, which could well be defined by having flexibility. Fox and friends have very few counterpicks, both from a stage and character perspective. Top tiers have disadvantages, sure, but they're rarely faced with a situation where they'll get decimated.

Not only are ICs rated lower, they're a completely unique character. You have an AI on your team! You place your fate partially in the hands of a CPU every single match. ICs will face even harder challenges when the CPU can't handle a situation. That practically mandates a secondary character, doesn't it?

Well, unless you ban every stage where an IC CPU has a hard time, which is what you're suggesting :p Isn't it objectively better to leave a character behind rather than banning a bunch of stages on his behalf?

Not that I particularly care. I play Fox, after all. I don't need a secondary.
ya, ur right, u just johned on urself and made my point stronger. thank you, I look forward to pwning the **** out of u on a legit stagelisnt.
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
Please don´t complain about ICs on the counterpickstages. They can win on brinstar and RC, as Wobbles has proven multiple times against "broken charaters on those stages), meaning peach on brinstar and Fox on RC. TBH Brinstar might even be better for ICs then FD against peach due to the semilow platformlayout and wierd floatangles.


Realized a thing about these kinds of discussions that may make more bad impression that initiallly thought.
It shows the community is split with alot of discussions of removing content and unmature posts with ignorance(as part of a strategy in debating).

This is bad publicity and might be a reason why they wont go for a more competive game(sakurai) due to the risk of getting that kind of publicity which is bad.

The anti competive(in form of having luck as a skill, which allways is a factor as long as peach and G&W is in the game) vs the antigamesides :/
 
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