Mechanic Changes for SSB4

[xX1337Sn1PeZaSsAsS1nXx]

Obvs being faster is better but if you lack range then what.
Being able to zone characters out is a trait in itself.

 

[Demon-oni]

That's more character specific strats which if you want I can take into pms, but generally so long as either power, speed, or range for any move isn't rapidly approaching either infinity or zero, the move has utility. And yes, zoning is an effective strategy, but I have yet to see a zoning character that doesn't use it's movement to utilize escape routes to continue their strategy. Even you should know what I'm talking about as a Falco player. And don't even bring up GGAC+R Justice. She's still so beta right now that Venom has a 10-0 matchup on her.


And I want Mewtwo back. Yes that's a system mechanic trollface.jpg

 

[xX1337Sn1PeZaSsAsS1nXx]

You're saying faster is better and I would agree. Being fast is better than being slow 100%

But you are trying to pass that off as the only trait that matters. Some characters will rely more on their range and power than speed. You're trying to say faster characters are the best characters but in most cases, those characters are also ahead in both range and power.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I'd like to see the air dodges from melee return. No not wavedashing. Just the air dodging.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah just the airdodge. Not wavedashing. Because if some of us can't put in the effort to learn how to use it, it shouldn't return so nobody else can use it against us. Also, because wavedashing is just a glitch that can be fixed if someone would just look at the code again and see what they missed.

 

[Master Knight DH]

@master knight

i see what you're trying to do with some of those, but either they way you're explaining them or their original natures would be counter productive makes it seem like you don't exactly know what you're talking about.
and i suppose you do? Because, you know, bowser was defeated in super mario bros. 3 by just punching him, rather than potentially getting all the way to him with an active hammer suit without getting hit, or even just plain dodging his idiotic behavior of continuously trying to jump onto you in a place with a fragile floor.

i understand you want to make it so that power based characters have an equal grounding in this game with speedy characters. It's true by it's nature, speedy characters have the advantage. Rather than implementing some weird system non flinch weak hits universally,
which is why i recommended the power system. You can use an armor power to retain momentum for when you want to attack.

i think that powerhouses should house potentially large amounts of super armor//heavy armor/light armor. Take a look at p:m bowser. He's a perfect example.
fire away.

light armor crawling to get around annoying projectile harass,
never mind that club users in kiu still get kited even when they move at full speed without issue.

super armor on all of his smashes and two aerials make him not only harder to juggle but even scarier to try poking out on pressure. Let's just hope the new team put super armor into better use than sakurai did, cuz that was pathetic.
i see a lot of claw users on kid icarus uprising's online who think they can melee rush me, the guy with the defense power club that will proc counter as soon as they try it. It's a miserable failure of a strategy only enabled by claws dealing too much melee damage, even getting to the point where they can actually 2hk me when i have top notch defense and they have no offensive buffs active. The thing is, claws are the fastest weapons in the game and they still have projectiles, weak though they may be. It would kill them somehow to use the bloody projectiles in combination with a power set that has being able to combat clubs in mind, rather than the idiotic method of trying to melee combo the guy who will just laugh off the knockback, retaliate, and just easily catch you, good job accomplishing the very thing the guy wants done.

Super armor can be fought under circumstances that aren't unreasonably broken. If you believe otherwise, you're wasting my time.

i'll be completely honest, aerial smashes sound stupid and counter productive to what you want.
what i want is better variety. Aerial smashes would provide better than just pick the right direction and hope for the best.

only faster characters would benefit from this.
really? How would you know they wouldn't provide things like better super armor?

stronger aerial kill moves, stronger hitting gimps, delayable juggle moves would destroy any character.
that's only if the power characters can't fight back because reduced attack power sucks at being an exploitable weakness.

hard hitters already have aerials like smashes. Take a look at ganon. I never want to get hit by any aerial of his except his neutral air at best.
and what makes you think the aerial smashes won't have smash bonuses like the regular smashes do? They have less reason to be shallow than moves that already aren't quite so.

and it's nice to see you want to improve character diversity, but remember a few things. Before messing with system mechanics, try tweaking the character balance first.
there are a few characters i'd like to see tweaked, but generally, mechanics handling is to blame.

and also, smash is a game heavily based on it's movement.
so i should have my dash attack interrupted by a cheap, puny jab. Gotcha.

it doesn't really have much of a cancel system, so you only need to focus on links for combos and the movements necessary to connect those links. So just because they may do things to help the heavy hitters, don't be surprised if the system still favors the speedies just little bit.
that is if comboing even stays able to do anything useful on power guys with decent defense

also, i personally feel kb decay is a stupid system.
i don't know, i'd rather no one move be spammable.

maybe mk is ridiculous atm, but because of it characters like sonic or rob can't compete. Nerf mk, get rid of kb decay. Simple.
i have a better idea: Tone up tanking-bolstered tactics by making them usable.

also, i wouldn't mind being able to shield out of initial dash. It's the shield itself that needs a nerf if you want it to be a more offensive game.
i'd rather the shield be revamped to let some damage punch through, so that blocking power attacks would be a worse off idea.

i've said also a lot this post.

Bold! Bold, I say!

 

[Big-Cat]

How about no auto L-canceling. You might as well just say "low landing lag on all aerials." That would make shield pressure too easy, as the differences in light shields, full shields, hitting an opponent, or hitting nothing all require different timings for reducing landing lag, as opposed to automatically reducing lag which doesn't punish you for predicting incorrectly by missing when you intended to hit, or when when you expected to hit nothing but hit a shield instead. What I'm saying is that it deepens the defensive game AND offensive game by requiring conscious thought on both parts.

I agree with the rest of what you mentioned though.

There's no strategical depth behind choosing to leave yourself open longer or not.

Yeah just the airdodge. Not wavedashing. Because if some of us can't put in the effort to learn how to use it, it shouldn't return so nobody else can use it against us. Also, because wavedashing is just a glitch that can be fixed if someone would just look at the code again and see what they missed.

Wavedashing is not a glitch. It's an exploit. The very existence of directional air dodges allowed it to be possible.

The big problem I see with a lot of characters is that they are in no way, shape, or form well rounded. The system inherently rewards speedier characters and/or characters that have good aerials. Name me one slow, ground based character that is decent in tournaments and doesn't have anything stupid to their name (I'm looking at you, Dedede).

I don't think your big characters like Bowser need to have a lot of super armor on their moves. You don't see characters like Zangief needing those kinds of things (different games, but still). They usually have decent pokes, some means of getting in or avoiding projectiles, and terrifying okizeme games thanks to them being able to choose at the very least from attacking, command grabbing, or just plain throwing them, but Smash currently does not distinguish between the two.

As I said in my post that no one responded too, having a new shield system where it's smaller and you have to position it to properly block an attack will probably change the game in an exciting way that may allow your slower characters to be great.

 

[DrinkingFood]

If I just wanted strategy, I'd play chess. No, there's no strategic depth in L-canceling (except on defense, then you might choose to light shield/full shield/dodge to throw your opponent off). There's technical depth.

That second post was all sarcasm. For god's sake...

Also, please stop trying to compare this to other fighters. Other fighters generally lack the mobility options of smash, meaning that slow characters without those mobility options lose out more in smash than they do in traditional fighters. I'm not arguing with that part of your post, I'm just asking you to not make comparisons to games that aren't anything like smash. Make comparisons to smash. Or maybe even that one TMNT fighting game Sakurai made. But not traditional fighters.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Well, believe it or not, after my experience with Kid Icarus Uprising's multiplayer, I have less problems now with flinching as a whole, since I figured out that it's meant to be an equalizer against stronger melee ability, so that you can try to combat weapons like the Samurai Blade and Magnus Club. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed.

At base, flinching is rather unconditional in Kid Icarus Uprising. But I primary clubs and cannons, and I've still been able to hold out well enough in the multiplayer, outside dumb 1HK weapon shenanigans. Heck, it gets to the point where I was using my Ball Cannon and got into a skirmish with Geodude! using his Pandora Claws, and I won the skirmish by the skin of my teeth, as my Overall DEF boost let me survive to get off that last hit I needed to take him out. I have the power system to thank for that, and I could be using the space on the grid for powers other than things like Counter.

Here's the Fridge Brilliance behind super armor being a part of the power system in KIU:
*From a thematic standpoint, you can get power but you have to prove you deserve it or it will be worthless and you will just burn out. The power system gives you a limiting number of chances to defeat less powerful opponents, but ways to deal with the shenanigans they could pull.
*Gameplay wise, it means that you can't shrug off knockback forever. If your armor powers run out, you will become vulnerable to unconditional flinching abuse. You simply would want to deal enough damage before that happens so that speedsters won't get to have a field day with you. (This is why with power weapons you actually want plenty of options rather than leveled powers, despite leveled powers typically using fewer spaces per charge.)
*The armor powers, of course, require space that could be use for other powers. Other players would use that space for more or stronger powers. The good news is, though, that armor powers do have their definite worth, though that means for heavy duty guys that replacing them would have to be thought out well.
*A useful side effect is that caring about your ability to tank well is MUCH more important to playstyle. If the armor guy gets hit, there's a good chance they'll just shrug it off. If the non-armor guy gets hit, they're KBed and going to lose a good deal of momentum. Yow. The players who don't care to tank need to think a little better and definitely need to stay wary in case of armor players (since the non-armor guy can be KBed but not the armor guy) but nothing that should be too drastic. The tank players, OTOH, actually have working tactics to help them out.

Let's take a look at my own standpoint about superarmor and others' as well, just to compare, using the power system:
*Basic logic:
-I want actual momentum and working tactics with power characters
-Other people want getting hit to be punished
*Power system provides Super Armor:
-I get KB immunity I can activate at any time
-Other players can avoid getting hit and hope I fizzle before I catch them
*Super Armor uses space:
-Efficient space usage for me, and I have plenty more for other options anyway
-Other players get more space for what they want
*Getting hit by a standard attack:
-Me: Stop that, I'm ticklish.
-Other players lose plenty of momentum just from the KB, but don't want getting hit happening to begin with

Though putting in the power system in the next SSB, armor powers would have to be nerfed compared to in KIU, if due to the objective being ring out as opposed to simply damaging the opponent enough. Still, I think you can see what points I am making about it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I don't think we should be comparing smash to KIU either. It may be made by Sakurai, but I see very little in common. A better way to give examples would be like... smash examples. Use project M if you have to. Bowser's got super armor in there (It's knockback armor, but very strong regardless, might as well be super armor, and Lucario's got a super system. Combine the two and theorysmash. It's better than theorykidicarusuprisinging and expecting people to see what you thought.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Well, keep in mind that it's not just Bowser I want to be able to tank decently with. I'm actually wanting to be able to use Link well, and I wouldn't be surprised if the power system would support him well enough for that. Funnily enough, I'd probably give him leveled powers too, because he already has plenty of options, it's just that they suffer because of the guy having his key tactics gimped.

 

[Big-Cat]

If I just wanted strategy, I'd play chess. No, there's no strategic depth in L-canceling (except on defense, then you might choose to light shield/full shield/dodge to throw your opponent off). There's technical depth.

Technical depth? I've heard this so many times that I never really get a good definition of this. Please define this for me unless it's something more than arbitrary execution barriers.

Also, please stop trying to compare this to other fighters. Other fighters generally lack the mobility options of smash, meaning that slow characters without those mobility options lose out more in smash than they do in traditional fighters. I'm not arguing with that part of your post, I'm just asking you to not make comparisons to games that aren't anything like smash. Make comparisons to smash. Or maybe even that one TMNT fighting game Sakurai made. But not traditional fighters.

They may be different games, but the overall concepts of rush down, footsies, spacing, okizeme, abare, etc. are conceptually the same in Smash in comparison to other fighters, even if it's a significantly different form. To be honest, I'd say there's more similarities between Smash and traditional fighters than people seem to realize.

This doesn't change my position that most characters in Smash, especially the slower ones, are far from being well rounded, or possibly even well designed (i.e. Zelda, Pokemon Trainer, Link, possibly Ness and Lucas) even if you do have some shining examples like Marth. If you have a slow character in Smash, they better have good, diverse tools to compensate and keep the game fresh.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Technical Depth: Hand-Eye-gameplay coordination (Since Hand-eye coordination doesn't seem like the right term), muscle memory, and how gameplay affects a player's ability to retain them under pressure. That's the best definition I got, but I didn't put much effort into it so try thinking for yourself and see if you can figure out something better without my help.

Also, the fact that those concepts are in a signficantly different form is everything. Being good at an FPS doesn't make landing pit's arrows any easier. It's the same concept (Aim, of course) but a significantly different form. Of course, there are less extreme examples, but I couldn't think of any offhandedly.

 

[Big-Cat]

That sounds like execution to me. No fancy term necessary then.

Comparing FPS aiming to Pit's arrow aiming is apples to carrots. You'd be making a better comparison with Halo vs. Metroid in aiming. Anyway, Marth has to space with his attacks just like Chun-Li with her pokes despite the fact that Smash and Street Fighter play very differently. Let's not forget the existence of projectiles in both games. Or the tech chases of Melee Falcon compared to El Fuerte's vortex or DI readings to resets.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Allowing a margin for human error is fine in my opinion. I don't think I'd be able to enjoy street fighter if all the 1-frame combos did themselves automatically.

(That's apparently all there is to that train of thought)

Having an "arbitrary" input becomes itself, subjective, because the complexity of many ingrained, simple actions is overlooked due to that same ingrained nature. Why not tech automatically just by holding shield at any time? It could be easily argued that it's arbitrarily difficult to make it timing based. Why not make every shield a powershield, since the presumption about them is a required "perfection" of input timing? Including these supposed "arbitrary" inputs emphasizes, in my eyes, the non-strict metaconcepts of the game, such as proper spacing, safe playing, and decision making even more; when looking at the case of L-canceling, the frame differences when hitting a high shield vs a low one makes the timing for L-canceling different every time, and forces conscious decision making and effort to be put in, much more so than the perceived "pure muscle memory" the technique and others like it have associated with them.

I still don't enjoy any version of street fighter II or any version of IV, but those are for different reasons.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Kuma, if they play differently, then comparing the concepts is pointless. There's a lot more to the differences between games than the differences in any one concept they happen to share.

apples and carrots.

That's exactly right. Just like comparing any smash with, well, anything else really.

Also, there's no situation when you wouldn't want to tech, powershield, or sweetspot, and since they require a bit of dedication to master, the game should just do them for you.

Also, I fail to see the relevance of whether or not we call it execution or technical depth. It doesn't make the actions easier or harder themselves. Calling it a "fancy" term will get you nowhere. I would like to make a point about execution though. I've seen a couple threads devoted to dealing with nervousness in competing and how it affects technical ability. One of them was made by Dr PeePee iirc. I'll go fish it out in a second. But the point I would like to make about this is that nobody who has reached the highest level executes technical ability flawlessly. The ability of a player to put pressure on their opponent doesn't just affect their character's ability to move- it affects their ability to apply muscle memory properly. Contrary to the term, muscle memory isn't something that exists in the muscle or in the nerves surrounding it, nor in the spinal cord like a reflex does. It's in the brain, and it's subject to the ability of the player to keep his cool in the face of competition, just like strategizing.

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14704270&postcount=17348
This isn't quite what I was looking for, but it'll do. Refer specifically to the part where he talks about freezing up and losing tech skill. This post is mostly about nervousness going into the game, but don't pretend like it doesn't happen in the middle of a set either, especially when it's an important one.

 

[Big-Cat]

Also, there's no situation when you wouldn't want to tech, powershield, or sweetspot, and since they require a bit of dedication to master, the game should just do them for you.

I am not arguing for that. Each of those have strategical and spacing maneuvers behind them. You can have reasons to tech in a certain direction or not at all. Powershielding can be forced early by conditioning the opponent making it a somewhat of an offensive mixup - make me want to block now or later. Sweet spotting is really just the game rewarding proper spacing. You could argue that in the case of the sweet spot being on the farthest point of the hitbox that you're sacrificing higher damage potential for safer, ranged, damaging standalone attacks which, again, adds strategical depth.

The problem with L-Canceling is that you have no reason to not do it. It's always the better option. You have no reason to at least attempt to do it.

Nerves

Please, I know this stuff all too well. A fighting game is very much psychological warfare between opponents. I get into your head and get you freaked out, I win. Your execution gets sloppy; you fall for feints; you're pressing buttons out of desperation.

Execution can hiccup for anyone at any time and I've had it happen to me more times than I care to count. The best SF players in Louisiana always has nerves problems when he's in finals. Don't talk to me like I don't know this ****.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Then don't say there's no value to successful execution requiring strict timing. And what part about different timings on L-canceling do you not get? Making it NOT automatic gives your OPPONENT a chance to force you to mess up. Stop ignoring that. It makes you wrong, so deal with it.
Also, you don't want to L-cancel when you edge cancel a move (assuming this isn't brawl) elsewise you'll **** up and accidentally shield as you're letting go of the shoulder button. And edge canceling CAN happen accidentally, so it requires more knowledge on the player's part about exactly when they would edge-cancel. But I'm making this small and dim because I know you'll ignore it anyways.

And about the nerves, there you go. Technical barriers are a good thing. Room for error is always a good thing in competitive events of ANY type. And I will talk to you like you don't know **** if you keep arguing like you haven't even considered said ****.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Okay, I guess we could consider a no C-Stick (equivalent) rule as sort of weight training in SSBM or SSBB. But picture this: what if the C-Stick (equivalent) ends up being used for something else to provide depth in a later SSB? Suddenly, the C-Stick is practically a crutch, instead of not using it being weight training. Whatever the C-Stick is used for is likely useful, but the stuff you were relying on the C-Stick for? Well, you'd have to do it with harder controls. Naturally, I wouldn't exactly complain, given my lack of fondness for the C-Stick being usable for A or B moves, especially when I'm playing a fighting game where I'm expected to have SOME degree of dexterity.

Food for thought.

Enough about that. I ought to point out that power needs to retain depth. If it doesn't and it gets strong enough to trump other things, it's going to make the game even more mindless than if power was bad. That's why strategy games do things like provide rock-paper-scissors triangles and different payoff methods.

I'll post a few triangles that'd be useful to remember:
Attack > Control - overwhelm the opposing forces
Control > Defend - gain useful space
Defend > Attack - burn out the attacker

Tank > Anti-air - overwhelming power; get defend
Anti-air > Air - hits easily; get attack
Air > Tank - safety from getting hit; get control

Power > Speed - stat advantage
Speed > Range - controls distance amount
Range > Power - hits from distance easily

Of course, strategy games do give you armies, so it's natural you get to work with several unit types. Sure, SSB isn't an army game, instead being (used as) a duel game, but we do want power to be usable for gathering momentum without being broken.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Triangles usually aren't quite as simple as rock paper scissors.

Also, that weight training example didn't make sense to me. I didn't understand it. Could you word that differently?

 

[DakotaBonez]

Yeah just the airdodge. Not wavedashing. Because if some of us can't put in the effort to learn how to use it, it shouldn't return so nobody else can use it against us. Also, because wavedashing is just a glitch that can be fixed if someone would just look at the code again and see what they missed.

Lol if yer not gonna put effort into something then you can't complain when someone is better than ya. Truth is though, that wavedashing was fully intentional, it just looked so awkward that the creators didn't wanna emphasize it as a legitimate mechanic.

However I agree with them on it lookin dumb, and seriously it does make the game less fun for newcomers. Just sticking with melee-like air dodging would be advanced enough.

Brawl has that thing where you slide whilst doing an upsmash. It's like a wavedash that simultaneously damages the opponent, I'm pretty sure this wasn't intentional and was just a flaw exploited by transferring controls between Wiimote and GC Controller. It's understandable that a glitch like this would fall in to a game with multiple controller types, like in computer games where pressing several arrow keys at once makes the characters animation screw up and result in moonwalking or walking midair. Hopefully the next smash bros will utilize online to implement patches to the game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Holy ****, I am the master at unintentionally trolling people. Okay, lets go over this one more time. The following post:

Yeah just the airdodge. Not wavedashing. Because if some of us can't put in the effort to learn how to use it, it shouldn't return so nobody else can use it against us. Also, because wavedashing is just a glitch that can be fixed if someone would just look at the code again and see what they missed.

was all sarcasm. Maybe I shoulda put that in sarcasm tags. I figured it would have clear that I'm a complete melee***, but if anything I'd be one of the first clamoring to have wavedashing returned. If anything I was making fun of the guy that posted just before me about removing wavedashing but keeping the dynamic air dodge.

But to clear up your confusion, wavedashing is just a physics exploit that results when the momentum from an air dodge is transfered to the ground, making your character slide. It actually wasn't intentional that you character should be able to slide around the stage like that, but when they noticed it they left it in anyways. So they intentionally left it in, but they didn't intentionally put it in. Also Dakota, how does the wavedash make the game less fun for newcomers?

As for the Brawl thing where you slide and do an upsmash, that's the DACUS. This also wasn't intentional, but just a result of other intentional things. It has nothing to do with different controllers- it can be done on any controller. It's result of being able to cancel the dash attack in the early frames with an usmash (or some other action that leads into the usmash, I'm not sure).

 

[DakotaBonez]

Im just hoping they will use the Wii U's increased online capabilites to patch these unintentionally or intentionally kept exploits like the Dacus (can never remeber that name) and wavedashing, being smashed through walls or freezing mid-frame.

 

[cannedbread]

wavedashing can be alienating to a casual entering the competitive scene, imho. to this day i will never understand why some people place so much emphasis on a tech that does nothing more than make you slide a bit. i will admit it does help (alot in luigi's case), but i find it a bit unnecessary

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nobody said a casual had to enter the competitive scene. If they have a problem with wavedashing, just don't get competitive. How dare something competitive be hard. How dare they have to work to win at something, amirite? Also, cannedbread, "sliding a bit" helps a lot more than you make it out to seem when spacing is the name of the game.

 

[M15t3R E]

^^ Yup.
You know what's really alienating? When a melee veteran tries to pick up a brawl character (other than MK), and he can't get too far in most tournaments despite his impressive performance in melee tournaments prior to brawl. So they just stick to melee.
That has been the case for nearly all melee veterans to date. Just not M2K, because he's awesome like that, and uses MK to boot.
When you DEFINITELY have technical skill, and the sequel game comes out and you can't do **** in tournaments, you know the developers screwed up. Big time.
The next game, SSB4, whatever it may be called, DESPERATELY NEEDS to be a bit more like melee and bring that competitiveness and technical skill back to the market.

 

[cannedbread]

Nobody said a casual had to enter the competitive scene.

i never said that either. i was providing a somewhat bad example of how wavedashing could ruin the experience of a newcomer. now that i look at it in context to the conversation, it was a bit out of context, you're right.

If they have a problem with wavedashing, just don't get competitive. How dare something competitive be hard. How dare they have to work to win at something, amirite?

this is exactly what i mean. i understand that pro smashers understand the various intricacies of the game better than i can, or could, but i really doubt wavedashing is the make-or-break tech that makes you pro or not.

i understand it's great for you if properly mastered. you get out of bad situations. it can extend the range of your attacks. it's fast. it helps you do various things in the game faster. but, i'm just not convinced that people just can't win without it. sorry for rambling.

 

[knuckles213]

man, thank god none of you guys on the SSB4 boards have any say so in what gets in the next smash and yea no tripping would be nice

 

[Kink-Link5]

I still think if wavedashing stays out, wavelanding or some very similar equivalent should come back. The technique was more useful than wavedashing in several circumstances, and added a lot more to the ATG game than casual observation would care to notice.

 

[M15t3R E]

To summarize my position, I think the next installment of the Super Smash Bros. series ought to require more skill.
Skilled melee veterans were reduced to mere noobs in brawl because the transition didn't allow them to carry over their skill in any direct way. That's what had many people so sour about brawl once it took off.
Smash 64 requires skill. Melee requires skill. Brawl requires *a tiny bit of* skill. It was intended to even the playing field between the greats and the simple casual enthusiasts. And that's exactly what it did.
And that's precisely the problem...

 

[Kink-Link5]

The gap between Brawl's competitive scene and casuals is hilariously large. The lack of movement options forced the metagame to develop linearly and streamlined the process, making the gap between the elite and the casuals massive in comparison to either of the other Smash games.

Brawl just made too many things too hard to actually do, such as teching, edgehogging, edgeguarding, and other "simple" things, making those who could do them have a huge advantage over those who couldn't. A harder spacing game, harder punishment game, more abusive, static combos and less free form strings further spread those who could do from those who couldn't, causing Brawl cereals to be able to absolutely trash the could nots.

Melee has a skill gap to overcome, Brawl has an entire metagame gap. All Brawl did was polarize the community between the Brawl super cereals and the Melee fun-timers.

 

[Demon-oni]

Kink-Link5, defending the brawl system to a degree and actually giving a coherent argument. Give him an award.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I wasn't aware that saying Brawl is less appealing at a casual level than Melee was defending it, but take from it what you will I guess.

 

[El Duderino]

Kink-Link5's post hit the nail on the head. Not only is the lack of movement options what ultimately caused the largest skill divide, but also what turned off Melee players. The compeditive level techniques and strategies in Brawl are just way too reliable once the muscle memory is there, while being just as inaccessible to the casual player. Melee has the agility factor that helps maintain a more constant level of risk.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mister E, you're exactly right about how alienating Brawl is to players who have mastered multiple forms of tech skill only to have NOTHING transfer over.

Canned bread, while wave dashing isnt a make or break tactic for high level play for a few characters, and although Kink's right about wavelanding having more general uses, it's still a hurdle that most players have to overcome if they plan to be successful in Melee. At least half the cast has a wavedash with value that IS make or break in tourney play. Characters with very short wavedashes and/or other superior movement options, such as jigglypuff, Peach, and Captain Falcon can usually overlook them, but at a certain point almost every character needs it because they need every and any tool possible to compete even if it makes a tiny, TINY difference, because players of other characters will have pushed their abilities and their characters' abilities to the very limit in order to ensure their success. It's how competition works- at the HIGHEST levels, small advantages are magnified to make the biggest differences.

 

[Demon-oni]

I'll have to agree. I mean, some say something like wave dashing doesn't make to much of a difference, but every new form of movement adds up. It's like saying being able to short hop isn't that important and could be taken out. It might not make a difference when all you do is play around with friends in a FFA, but at higher levels you need everything you can get.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Not to be contradictory, but SHing makes a big difference at every level Back when I was a little kid (and super casual) I was the best of all my friends because I short hopped on approach often (tho no L-cancel or FF) lol
But yeah, movement options aren't anything to take lightly. Every time a new one is "found", either you take advantage of it, or you lose.

 

[El Duderino]

I mean, some say something like wave dashing doesn't make to much of a difference, but every new form of movement adds up.

I don't disagree, but I would say the opposite is also true. A lack of movement options strips average level players of tools that could help them stay competitive in increasingly lopsided matches.

 

[Jamwa]

Wavebouncing should be kept, or at least the utilities available to Lucas. It also helps some characters such as Snake and ROB when falling.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I hate the term wavebouncing. It's just B-reversing. It's like the brawl community wanted "wave" in some word and they thought they had to put it somewhere, so they just put it there.