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Mechanic Changes for SSB4

Kink-Link5

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Every new Smash introduces new mechanics, and every new Smash removes mechanics from the previous game. Melee removed full Z-canceling in favour of double-speed L-canceling, and Brawl removed late dash dancing, shield during initial dash, momentum changing airdodges, and several other mechanics, while adding in mechanics of its own- Tripping, hitstun canceling, Backwards ledge grabbing, to name a few.

What mechanics from Brawl do you feel should be removed or heavily changed?

I'll list off a few of mine

-Random Tripping: I feel like this was added as a simple means of making Running not optimal to walking in every way, giving risk to using the faster movement option.

-No Shield during initial dash, dashturn, and dashstop: Another mechanic that seems to only serve to deter running, making it a "dedicated action" with suboptimal actions out of it, for a pay off that isn't worth faster movement.

-Hitstun canceling as it exists currently: This mechanic feels like it was just made to help people recover more easily from heavy hits, which is not inherently a bad idea. In fact, looking at training mode will show that the game registers combos even when it is possible to cancel the hitstun. The fact that it could be used to break out of combos seems to be a side effect. The easiest solution would be to make the technique have a knockback threshold that must be overcome before it becomes possible to act out of the stun.

-Other miscellaneous running mechanics: The problem that comes about from having a dash that can easily be acted out of is that the option comes to vastly overpower walking as an option. Melee had crouch canceling during the full running animation, and it came to be that walking was only used during close quarters to seldomly offer more precise movement. A solution to this would be to let the run animation flow into the walk animation when the stick is let up a little. Fully releasing the stick would still cause a dashstop, but easing the stick in would break into a walk, allowing both movement options to coexist and benefit each other- Running lets itself step aside to let walking apply pressure at close quarters, and walking lets running take over easily when needed. Melee dash dancing could stay or go, but if the idea is to let both shine in certain areas, it would probably be better to have closer to Brawl dashdances.

-Backwards grabbing as it exists currently: The idea was a good way to make recovery more accessible, but in execution it took away a lot of the role a player need to play when making it back. Project M's "Grab backwards only during the first few frames of fallspecial" is the best of both since it still allows recoveries to be done from under the stage, without the drawbacks of grabbing backwards at any time.

-Current Shield mechanics: I've long been a proponent of changing the way defense works in Smash. My personal take is that shields should be smaller overall, but be able to be angled more, emphasizing a play between shield pokes and changing shield angles. As well, notably higher longevity for shields, slower shield regeneration, more shield DI, higher shield stun and move specific shieldstun, independent of move damage, would all add up to make the defensive game much more intuitive and less linear. Shield angling could stand to be easier as well, with OoS options requiring harder flicks of the control stick, to emphasize this change in shielding dynamic.




Go on now. This is just the start of what could make a huge difference in pace and feel for the game.
 

El Duderino

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Essentially I just want the same cuts and adaptations Project M made. It just feels like the right balance of control and convenience. More forgiving than Melee, but without the level of hand-holding in Brawl. Then of course build off that.

Perhaps most of all I want power-shielding to go. It's all reward and no risk, encouraging too much trading punches until something sticks. Shielding should be a means to primary not get hit, and just maybe if the spacing is right, land a grab or jab.
 

Mic_128

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The auto-grabbing of Link/Samus' grapples. I liked being able to grab the wall of a stage and recover.
 

gothrax

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LOLS to be fair I'm not expecting a change like THIS v but its kinda the direction I'd like to see smash go

Adds

Air shield: simple enough only if you get hit by something with high shield pushing then you travel twice as far and with no gradual slowdown

Air rolling: pretty much like in melee in that you can dodge through the air in any direction only of course if you dodge diagonally downward you buffer into a roll. And if you dodge into the air you use a second jump

Air grab: yes air grabbing there will be all new air grab anims, but there will be a downside in that if you air grab and fail then you go into THE falling state...

So yah! I wish smashes ground game would move into the air aswell :/

:phone:
 

SmashChu

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OP's post is "Make the next game Melee!"

None of those ideas (outside of removing tripping), help the game at all. Smash is suppose to be accessible and easy to play and those ideas either remove it or add more complexity. Basically, the wrong direction.
 

Pyra

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Let's remove everything except for Final Destination and Fox.

In all honesty, I would be fine if they just removed the random tripping. :U
 

kisamefishfries

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OP's post is "Make the next game Melee!"

None of those ideas (outside of removing tripping), help the game at all. Smash is suppose to be accessible and easy to play and those ideas either remove it or add more complexity. Basically, the wrong direction.
too many people want SSB: Melee 2
 

El Duderino

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Does someone care to explain to me how having a run->walk transition or more responsive shielding when you start, pivot, or stop running is making the game too complex? If anything that sounds easier to control.

I get it, some of you want another Brawl, but please consider making Smash easier to maneuver and more responsive can also add to the accessibility and make the game play more intuitively.
 

TL?

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OP's post is "Make the next game Melee!"

None of those ideas (outside of removing tripping), help the game at all. Smash is suppose to be accessible and easy to play and those ideas either remove it or add more complexity. Basically, the wrong direction.
fine tuning subtle elements of dashing and various other mechanics is not making the game "too complex". Idealy a game should be easy to learn and difficult to master. Depth and Complexity are different things. Brawl could be a lot deeper without being too complex.

How can you say hitstun actually doing what it's supposed to do (not be cancelable) is a step in the wrong direction? the only combos in this broken game called brawl are some sort of exploit of the various mechanics, whether its chain grabs due to stale moves+no non tumble DI, or jab locks, or grab releases. Even most characters Jab combo (AA with link or samus) doesn't even actually combo. You can get hit by the first part and sheild in time for the second one. But fixing hitstun is a step in the wrong direction? Please never post again. You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

It's extremely sad for people to think balancing a few of the game's mechanics = "make the game melee". It's not melee untill it has wavedash, high gravity, l cancel, and a bunch of other stuff. And it's also sad that you say that like a bad thing. You don't have to hate melee because some melee players don't like brawl lol. To clarify, I don't want melee again, I just want a good smash bros. You're a massive fanboy if you think brawl needs no improvement besides tripping.
 

MR. K

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some of the non-competitive people here make my stomach churn with some of their posts.

Kink Link isn't asking to make the game melee 2 at all.

some of the things he's asking for would be feel drastically different than anything ever offered in melee.

and much like one other poster said, how the hell is making a fluid transition from dashing to walking making the game "too complex" and "less accessible" if anything its doing the EXACT opposite.
 

El Duderino

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Some people are just soo anti-competitive Smash that they choose to ignore or even praise many of Brawl's counter-intuitive quirks.

Take something as simple as say Up-B auto snapping to ledges. Sure, it makes recovering safer, but it also works against the player's intention when they want to attack with it. It's an unexpected result, even for new players. Brawl is filled with similar conditional arbitrary rules that players have to pick up on.
 

Kink-Link5

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I completely forgot about auto-snaps actually XD

I'd be fine with them if the ledgegrab area was smaller, such that auto-snapping forced the character's hitbox above the stage briefly, while the larger (God forbid as large as Brawl's) grab box could be reserved for sweet spotting ledges. It allows for selective and conscious use of your recovery in a rock-paper-scissors sort of way when factoring in holding down to keep using the up-B past the ledge, and opponent edge guard/hog options.
 

Big-Cat

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-Hitstun canceling as it exists currently: This mechanic feels like it was just made to help people recover more easily from heavy hits, which is not inherently a bad idea. In fact, looking at training mode will show that the game registers combos even when it is possible to cancel the hitstun. The fact that it could be used to break out of combos seems to be a side effect. The easiest solution would be to make the technique have a knockback threshold that must be overcome before it becomes possible to act out of the stun.
This is what I was thinking. BlazBlue has this for its aerial combos. Maybe even turn it into a three-way aerial ukemi.

-Other miscellaneous running mechanics: The problem that comes about from having a dash that can easily be acted out of is that the option comes to vastly overpower walking as an option. Melee had crouch canceling during the full running animation, and it came to be that walking was only used during close quarters to seldomly offer more precise movement. A solution to this would be to let the run animation flow into the walk animation when the stick is let up a little. Fully releasing the stick would still cause a dashstop, but easing the stick in would break into a walk, allowing both movement options to coexist and benefit each other- Running lets itself step aside to let walking apply pressure at close quarters, and walking lets running take over easily when needed. Melee dash dancing could stay or go, but if the idea is to let both shine in certain areas, it would probably be better to have closer to Brawl dashdances.
Another input I could see is down-forward. I can imagine that, while maybe not being as intuitive, is easier to consistently pull off.

Speaking of walking, I wonder if turning down-back into a backwards walk might be worth something. Just leave straight down for crouching.
-Current Shield mechanics: I've long been a proponent of changing the way defense works in Smash. My personal take is that shields should be smaller overall, but be able to be angled more, emphasizing a play between shield pokes and changing shield angles. As well, notably higher longevity for shields, slower shield regeneration, more shield DI, higher shield stun and move specific shieldstun, independent of move damage, would all add up to make the defensive game much more intuitive and less linear. Shield angling could stand to be easier as well, with OoS options requiring harder flicks of the control stick, to emphasize this change in shielding dynamic.
So a more free, yet more indepth, take on traditional fighter blocking? I welcome this. Gives this game the much needed high-low (or whatever) mixup game that would be so crazy.

Here are some things I'd like to see (barring stuff pertaining to a revamped combo game):

Turn Around - Turn around mid-air with a half-circle direction towards the direction you intend to face. Allow you to do things like runaway from the opponent and retaliate with an FAir.

Committed Momentum - I'd like to see a minimum threshold for momentum when it comes to jumps. Make the jumps more committed, but allow for the above turn around scenario to exist and many more.

Air Dashes - I think this would be a really cool addition for a game like Smash that has a strong aerial emphasis.
 

Pyra

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some of the non-competitive people here make my stomach churn with some of their posts.
I have the same feeling about the polar opposite type of people on these forums and in other places, especially Youtube. The polar opposite being competitive players who are unreasonable jerks about anything that isn't at the least "advanced". If I had a dollar for every time I saw "LOL THAT AIN'T PRO YOU NOOB" on a rookie video, I'd have enough money to buy Nintendo out.


Back on topic, I replaced my Brawl game yesterday so I got a refresher on the mechanics. Funny thing is, I didn't even notice the auto-snap until today. Probably has something to do with the fact I've been playing smash64 a lot recently too. I think that's a bit much, but it's no big deal sometimes. Unless if it hinders your battle for some reason, which I can imagine that it can.


SmashChu said:
Smash is suppose to be accessible and easy to play and those ideas either remove it or add more complexity.
The first thing that came to mind was "how does removing tripping make it more complex or less accessible and harder to play?". Honestly, people are going to learn how to cope with what they have if they're non-competitive, whilst the competitive bunch will always find new ways to improve the game and such (as how they see fit). I guess what I'm saying is that it will be accessible and easy to play at all times, regardless of the mechanics. Within reason, of course. Those suggestions don't change anything to much. How hard would it be for a casual player to overcome just a bit more hurdles? Chances are, if they're a casual player, they don't play with the "pros" and wouldn't QUITE care about how much "harder", if you can call it that, that the game is to play. Hell, I'm not QUITE at the competitive level yet (READ: Still a casual gamer), and I think the game(Brawl) is pretty hand-holdy.

Just my 2 cents. *Quickly fades from this topic to avoid being slammed on by experts*
 

Kink-Link5

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I've also long been in favour of an air dodge system that is both the same as, and completely different from, Melee's and Brawl's simultaneously.

Additive Momentum Altering Airdodge, with non-airdodge actions afterward possible. Coupled with intangibility starting on frame 1 or 2, and a higher end lag, this air dodge would alter you current momentum relative to what angle and to what distance you move the control stick when initiating the air dodge. Continuing to move the control stick will continue to alter the momentum , allowing "Zig-Zagging" air dodges, if they're done from a state of no momentum, such as the peak of a jump. If the control stick is left neutral, the air dodge carries out roughly identically to Brawl's. With the ability to do actions afterward still in tact, this would allow dodges and counter attacks in the air without lending itself to "airdodge spam." Basically, it would double as an anti-mash system and intuitive dodge mechanic.

To clarify, if you are, for example, a Fast Falling Fox, any upward airdodge would only serve to alter you momentum and slow your fall momentarily, not completely halt or change your momentum as in Melee's.
 

Vinylic.

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I'm only going to agree with tripling and nothing else.

Every other thing your asking to be removed is something degrades it's competitive feel of Brawl, I believe.
 

DakotaBonez

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I'm gonna sound like an idiot for asking this but, did melee have footstool jumping or was that a mechanic added in brawl? The only time I remember a footstool in melee was from that brief cutscene with Luigi jumping on Mario. Sorry for the confusion, I just didn't see it mentioned in the first post and I KNOW smash 64 definitely didn't have it. I'd like to see the air dodging from melee return even if it was without the wavedashing. Having the option to map Footstool jumping to another button would be a nice feature, also being able to map it so some buttons dont do anything, so I can set up a VS. match thats only A attacks or something fun like that.
Remove the random tripping and give more characters moves that enduce it. I love how Pikachu's low attack is a tail sweep that actually trips the opponent. Seeing a reaction from the opponent like that is sweet.

EDIT: Thanks to Vinyl for replying below.
 

Kink-Link5

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I'm only going to agree with tripling and nothing else.

Every other thing your asking to be removed is something degrades it's competitive feel of Brawl, I believe.
Care to elaborate? Expanding movement options and creating more elaborate Shield and Edgeguard games don't seem to be things that would remove the "Competitive feeling" of Brawl.

So I'm kind of asking to elaborate two things I guess-

What defines a "Competitive feeling"?

And

How would these suggestions hinder that feeling?
 

Vinylic.

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I only took a quick look at the op, 'twas all. Looking again, I can also agree with the running mechanics and it's inability to use shield when turning and etc. Everything else is something I cannot agree with though.
 
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OP's post is "Make the next game Melee!"

None of those ideas (outside of removing tripping), help the game at all. Smash is suppose to be accessible and easy to play and those ideas either remove it or add more complexity. Basically, the wrong direction.
First, you're the only person who has mentioned Melee, the poster didn't.

Second, how can these things either remove or add complexity? They can only do one or the other, but you are for having smash a simple fighter which you claim is the wrong direction? What?

Lastly how would making this game like Melee be a bad thing? There are a few things about Melee that are admittedly dumb. Like the edge roll recovery edgehog. Melee is still a solid fighter that retails it's simple elements and spontaneity. It's not like someone is suggesting to implement quarter circles, rotations, jump installs etc.
 

Signia

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OP's post is "Make the next game Melee!"

None of those ideas (outside of removing tripping), help the game at all. Smash is suppose to be accessible and easy to play and those ideas either remove it or add more complexity. Basically, the wrong direction.
Accessibility is good but at some point it dumbs down the game. Pandering to 5 year olds and grannies makes the game less fun to play for experienced fans of the game. I say **** your mom, and **** the children, I want a game that doesn't play itself.

Complexity is the RIGHT direction. If we had a game that's even simpler than Brawl, how long would people play it? What would there be to discover, to master, to conquer? How could you possibly want a game you plan to play for a few years to be simple??

The series already has accessibility out the wazoo. Have you played other fighting games? You need it dumbed down further buddy? Well **** you, it's this line of thinking that brought the step backward that is Brawl.
 

rawrimamonster

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Lol @ all the melee hate ITT, hilarious...anyway


More hitstun, this is a must. "No combos so baby doesn't feel bad about losing" is dumb as hell.

L-cancels returning or auto cancels, there was no need to remove these in brawl except to cater to casuals. :glare:

no more infinite air dodge, its stupid... just no

No more tripping, i think we all agree on this.

If you must have a autosnap to ledge recovery system make the snap finer and tighter, like it was previously mentioned in this thread, the grab area is WAAAAAAYY too big.

Less DI, you really dont need that much

more weight and fallspeed variation...honestly brawl is way too floaty to the point of stupidity.

new idea (possibly, i dont read this forum much)

Since a large part of the smash community that was in brawl learned planking maybe add a incentive to approaching like way less ledge hang time or continually deteriorated ledge grabs kinda like how smashes do less damage over repeated use. When it fully wears down the character will only grab the ledge for a split second then release like they have weak fingers. We already have the effects of damage with ledge recovering times increasing as your damage is higher, so expanding this to punish bad/overly defensive players would be a good thing. It would balance out in the fact that as well as a defensive game, they'd have to learn a offensive game. in b4 "baww stop making me learn new things!"


Also inb4 the angsty brawlers chip in, not trying to make Melee 2.0 so hold your controller throwing arm back from making a angry reply. Simply undoing the damage brawl did so sakurai could have his "EVERYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WIN" game.
 

Claire Diviner

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More hitstun, this is a must. "No combos so baby doesn't feel bad about losing" is dumb as hell.
Agreed, and I'm sure everyone, including Brawl players, agree.

L-cancels returning or auto cancels, there was no need to remove these in brawl except to cater to casuals. :glare:
This. The funny thing is, casual players actually suffer more from this than pros do, seeing as pros know how to use aerials, and not suffer the landing lag most of the time.

no more infinite air dodge, its stupid... just no
I honestly don't mind the air dodge. Granted, it killed wave-dashing, but it's not like it's an "end all, be all" thing, since proper reading can result in punishing air dodges.

No more tripping, i think we all agree on this.
This. What's more to say?

If you must have a autosnap to ledge recovery system make the snap finer and tighter, like it was previously mentioned in this thread, the grab area is WAAAAAAYY too big.
This is true too, though some characters have pathetically small ledge-grab boxes anyway. Zelda seem to come to mind. What they can do, is make it so that characters can't grab the ledge when facing away from it, making Mario's Cape a more effective edge-guarding tool.

Less DI, you really dont need that much
I don't mind the current DI, but do agree that less DI will make matches a bit faster.

more weight and fallspeed variation...honestly brawl is way too floaty to the point of stupidity.
I don't think weight variation is needed more than just having increased fallspeed.

Since a large part of the smash community that was in brawl learned planking maybe add a incentive to approaching like way less ledge hang time or continually deteriorated ledge grabs kinda like how smashes do less damage over repeated use. When it fully wears down the character will only grab the ledge for a split second then release like they have weak fingers. We already have the effects of damage with ledge recovering times increasing as your damage is higher, so expanding this to punish bad/overly defensive players would be a good thing. It would balance out in the fact that as well as a defensive game, they'd have to learn a offensive game.
Interesting idea. Don't know if this is necessarily needed though. Planking is effective in Brawl because of Brawl's mechanics. Then again, I don't know how strong planking would be in Melee if MK in his current form were a playable character. So the whole stale ledge-grabbing idea seems very interesting, and worth keeping in mind.
 

lordvaati

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Air Dashes - I think this would be a really cool addition for a game like Smash that has a strong aerial emphasis.
i get the feeling that this will be added next game...at least I hope so.
 

rawrimamonster

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i get the feeling that this will be added next game...at least I hope so.
Yknow...honestly I get a odd feeling that...namco will somehow turn smash into a blazblue guilty gear esque rushdown fighter if air dashes are implemented. I'm not against the idea at all, I'm pretty open minded but...theres limited ways air dashes can be implemented...but by god if we get air dashes we better get megaman X and/or Zero. |: Not even ****in kiddin man!

watch air dashes get implemented and they'll be the only way we can cancel aerials and bowser becomes a broken tank because of it lmao...potemkin 2.0
 

Big-Cat

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An airdashing Potemkin would be a massive buff in itself.
 

Kink-Link5

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Brawl had the exact same amount of hitstun as Melee. Higher end lag to aerials, slow falling speeds, airdodge in tumble, and the ability to cancel hitstun, all added up to hinder combos since you couldn't reach a launched opponent soon enough, the hitstun wouldn't carry out to their falling state, they could airdodge most attempted followups, and they could CANCEL HITSTUN.
 

SmashChu

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You must have read a different thread than the one I made.

I don't recall any part of my post suggesting mechanics that were even in Melee.
First, you're the only person who has mentioned Melee, the poster didn't.
Melee had crouch canceling during the full running animation, and it came to be that walking was only used during close quarters to seldomly offer more precise movement. A solution to this would be to let the run animation flow into the walk animation when the stick is let up a little. Fully releasing the stick would still cause a dashstop, but easing the stick in would break into a walk, allowing both movement options to coexist and benefit each other- Running lets itself step aside to let walking apply pressure at close quarters, and walking lets running take over easily when needed. Melee dash dancing could stay or go, but if the idea is to let both shine in certain areas, it would probably be better to have closer to Brawl dashdances.

Other things like increasing hitstun and the shield stun were in Melee even if you didn't say it as so.

Second, how can these things either remove or add complexity? They can only do one or the other, but you are for having smash a simple fighter which you claim is the wrong direction? What?

Lastly how would making this game like Melee be a bad thing? There are a few things about Melee that are admittedly dumb. Like the edge roll recovery edgehog. Melee is still a solid fighter that retails it's simple elements and spontaneity. It's not like someone is suggesting to implement quarter circles, rotations, jump installs etc.
I mean remove the accessibility of it. My post wasn't clear on that, but you could probably see what I mean now.

The problem with going towards Melee is it is the wrong direction. Sakurai has said himself that himself. He said something along the lines of "Smash is suppose to be accessible, but why did I target it so much to hardcore players." He also said Melee players wouldn't understand.

Smash's success is linked to it being an accessible game. It tries to remove some of the complexities of other fighting games. Brawl went in that direction by removing the complexities of Melee. Namely the ledge grab, removing Wavedashing and L-canceling, slowing the pace a but and reducing hit stun and shield stun. Going backwards would be adding those things back in which some of them the OP did suggest. Brawl is the best selling fighting game around and it is in part thanks to how open the game is. Anyone can get into it. You don't have to fight the game, which happened in Melee a lot more (again, Sakurai's quote).

Smash should be going in that direction and the next one will too.
 

SmashChu

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Do tell us how unpopular and inaccessible Melee was to the casual crowd.
I can tell you Brawl did far better. It sold 4 million more units than Melee (according to VGChartz) and sold over 10 million copies.

Had Brawl went the path of Melee, you would have seen sales go down. It was a slippery slope and Sakurai mentions this. Again, Brawl found the balance. What people suggest is that SSB4 should follow the path of Melee and become more inaccessible. Going down that path wont work as it hasn't worked for every other fighting game released. Smash has stayed pretty accessible (yes, Melee too), but the suggestions that come up are making a more complex game and one that will tarnish the series.
 

Big-Cat

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How many times do we have tI go over this?

Even though Brawl sold 4 million more than Melee, this is likely a partial result of so many Wiis bought. 1 out of every 3 GC owners had Melee. 1 out of at least 9 Wii owners have Brawl.

:phone:
 
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