Mechanic Changes for SSB4

[DrinkingFood]

That's true Kink. I actually liked your idea, although to be quite honest, aerial zigzagging sounds really... odd. I'd have to see it in action to know whether I'd actually like it in-game.

@smashchu
I'm pretty sure you could DI anything with knockback, given you had the reaction time for it. Also, DI maxed out at 18 degrees different regardless of the original knockback angle.

 

[SmashChu]

Because Project M doesn't appeal to any aspect of the community and Balanced Brawl is such a popular and well spread project.

It appeals to the people who want Melee again.

There is currently a project to make SSIV not ****ty, with parries and 3S pace as big goals in the project.

Gonna ask for a source on this one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

SmashChu, I don't see why you want players to let Melee go.

If people want to play Project M, why would you take that away from them? Are you sour that it's the new hip thing and you don't enjoy it?

 

[El Duderino]

No. It took Brawl and turned it into Melee. Honestly I have more respect for Balance Brawl because it kept Brawl and tried to tailor it to the community. Project M is an embarrassment. It just shows competitive Smash players just can't let Melee go.

You do realize you are talking to one of the lead developers on the project right? He deserves a lot more respect than calling all his hard work an embarrassment. Not many people have contributed as much as he has.

Also go play the game, yes it has more in common with Melee, but the number of changes/improvements it has and is still making on both Melee and Brawl are enormous. It might as well be the lost expansion pack. Kudos to them for taking the forumla and building something new with it.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

No. It took Brawl and turned it into Melee. Honestly I have more respect for Balance Brawl because it kept Brawl and tried to tailor it to the community. Project M is an embarrassment. It just shows competitive Smash players just can't let Melee go. I don't see Street Fighter players going on and on in how 4 needs to be 3rd Strike

Yes, because clearly ONLY competitive players enjoyed Project M. It's not like I've stated multiple times on this forum how I'm a casual player. Clearly I am a competitive snob and need to get over Melee and just enjoy Brawl like all the good children.

 

[DrinkingFood]

FYI smashchu, Project M tends to appeal to casuals moreso than Brawl does, once they've been introduced to both. I personally know a group of about 5 casuals (I play with them during the fall/spring semesters) that refuse to go back to brawl now that I've introduced them to Project M, despite being an unfinished product with less characters. I've heard dozens of testimonials from friends of casuals as well who say they've switched over to Project M because they enjoy it more.

Something else I would like to point out is that I got hardcore into Brawl before I got hardcore into melee. I played melee first of course, when I was younger and it was the newest smash bros at the time. When Brawl came out, I got more interested in the series, and started watching youtube videos to improve my game. But when I stumbled across melee videos from time to time, and tried to do those things in brawl, I was disappointed when they didn't work. Eventually I just dropped Brawl for Melee, and when I found out I could have what I loved from BOTH, I don't think I've played Brawl OR Melee since.

I think Project M appeals more greatly to anyone who goes into it without absolute reservation than any other installment in the series to be quite honest. I know this upsets you as a Brawl hardcorist, but the fact is that the mechanics that made melee great are the best we know to use right now, so we're going to use them, and are going to clamor for their return in SSB4.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

FYI smashchu, Project M tends to appeal to casuals moreso than Brawl does, once they've been introduced to both. I personally know a group of about 5 casuals (I play with them during the fall/spring semesters) that refuse to go back to brawl now that I've introduced them to Project M, despite being an unfinished product with less characters. I've heard dozens of testimonials from friends of casuals as well who say they've switched over to Project M because they enjoy it more.

Something else I would like to point out is that I got hardcore into Brawl before I got hardcore into melee. I played melee first of course, when I was younger and it was the newest smash bros at the time. When Brawl came out, I got more interested in the series, and started watching youtube videos to improve my game. But when I stumbled across melee videos from time to time, and tried to do those things in brawl, I was disappointed when they didn't work. Eventually I just dropped Brawl for Melee, and when I found out I could have what I loved from BOTH, I don't think I've played Brawl OR Melee since.

I think Project M appeals more greatly to anyone who goes into it without absolute reservation than any other installment in the series to be quite honest. I know this upsets you as a Brawl hardcorist, but the fact is that the mechanics that made melee great are the best we know to use right now, so we're going to use them, and are going to clamor for their return in SSB4.

Project M is truly amazing. Even if you're not 100% sold on the engine changes, you have to admire what they're doing with the individual characters. PM Toonie is hands-down my favorite Link incarnation in the series, and PM Lucario is just made of pure win(even though he's not my favorite character).

The stages are also awesome, experimenting with different platform layouts to make some of the best stages ever, and having a diverse and fun stage roster without relying on gimmicky, random stages.

Project M would not have gotten heavy coverage from places like IGN if it didn't have something that appealed to non-competitive players.

 

[Big-Cat]

You guys know you aren't going to win this argument against SmashChu, right? No matter what you toss out, he'll still "back it up" with sales all while getting a hard on from anything Sakurai says.

 

[DrinkingFood]

How can he even back it up with sales? Brawl only sold 4 million more than melee, while the ratio of game : console was heavily in melee's favor, and while Melee only had the hype of one game to ride off of, Brawl had two? As well as being released 8 years later, during a console generation where games are a larger part of our entertainment than before?
If all was to go as expected, Brawl should have sold 20 million copies easily.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

You guys know you aren't going to win this argument against SmashChu, right? No matter what you toss out, he'll still "back it up" with sales all while getting a hard on from anything Sakurai says.

Lol I know. I've posted this TWICE now in response to stuff he's posted and he's ignored me both times because it defeats his argument about how "inaccessible" Melee was to casuals. We really should learn better that treat his arguments as legit.

How can he even back it up with sales? Brawl only sold 4 million more than melee, while the ratio of game : console was heavily in melee's favor, and while Melee only had the hype of one game to ride off of, Brawl had two? As well as being released 8 years later, during a console generation where games are a larger part of our entertainment than before?
If all was to go as expected, Brawl should have sold 20 million copies easily.

Go read through this thread and marvel at the "argument" he has with El Duderino.

 

[Big-Cat]

How can he even back it up with sales? Brawl only sold 4 million more than melee, while the ratio of game : console was heavily in melee's favor, and while Melee only had the hype of one game to ride off of, Brawl had two? As well as being released 8 years later, during a console generation where games are a larger part of our entertainment than before?
If all was to go as expected, Brawl should have sold 20 million copies easily.

I've argued with this idiot for years on and off. He will try to back it up. It's only a matter of time before he brings up Sean Malstrom.

I just threw up a little in my mouth by saying that name.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It appeals to the people who want Melee again.



Gonna ask for a source on this one.

http://www.sf4remix.com/wiki/index.php?title=System

Not quite the same goals, but faster pace and a more intuitive defense/offense balance are a big part of what defines 3S in the first place.

Also choosing your super art.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I've argued with this idiot for years on and off. He will try to back it up. It's only a matter of time before he brings up Sean Malstrom.

Oh boy I can't wait.

 

[El Duderino]

How can he even back it up with sales?

Let me spare you the long read of his argument, paraphrasing here, SmashChu feel free to correct me if something doesn't line up:

Melee sales went down in Japan, therefore Melee was the wrong direction. Melee is too complex. Complex games always sell worse. Lots of people owning a console is a non-factor because games sell based on merit alone. New content like iconic mascots is not the reason either. It all comes down to how well targeted a game is for non-competitive players. Also because Sakuari said it was the right direction. Games can't reach casual and compeditive audiences, it's having your cake and eating it too.​

 

[SmashChu]

SmashChu, I don't see why you want players to let Melee go.

If people want to play Project M, why would you take that away from them? Are you sour that it's the new hip thing and you don't enjoy it?

The problem is that the community isn't moving on and it's killing it from the inside.

When a new game comes out, players typically move on to the next one. Yes, not everyone likes it. Many will like the previous over the new one, but the same thing always happens. The players move on. Street Fighter 3 players move to SF4. Starcraft 1 players move onto 2(took a while since for many Brood War players, it's a career). Halo fans moved to Reach and will move to 4. Never have they tried to make the previous game. They move on. Players who don't like the new game stay with the old one and that's that.

Smash's problem is this resistance to just move on. It has held back the game (among other things. I'm sure I could write a lot on the scenes faults). There is too much of a divide in the community. Players are split, taking an already small community and breaking it up. If it isn't solved, the next game will destroy the community. It will split everyone again.

Now, given, I haven't been up to date on this. Things may be solved for the most part. I think the next game will show us though.

You do realize you are talking to one of the lead developers on the project right? He deserves a lot more respect than calling all his hard work an embarrassment. Not many people have contributed as much as he has.

Also go play the game, yes it has more in common with Melee, but the number of changes/improvements it has and is still making on both Melee and Brawl are enormous. It might as well be the lost expansion pack. Kudos to them for taking the forumla and building something new with it.

Everyone is open to criticism just like you and I.

To everyone on the outside, Project M is a joke. It's for the same reason as I mentioned above. It's pointless to make a mod of the new game to mimic the old game. It's moving on and letting go. Brawl + and Balanced Brawl are at least justifiable because it's the same game but built for the competitive crowd (as Smash never caters to them). But Project M is just trying to be Melee. It does nothing besides that.

Everyone else sees it as a joke.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

To everyone on the outside, Project M is a joke. It's for the same reason as I mentioned above. It's pointless to make a mod of the new game to mimic the old game. It's moving on and letting go. Brawl + and Balanced Brawl are at least justifiable because it's the same game but built for the competitive crowd (as Smash never caters to them). But Project M is just trying to be Melee. It does nothing besides that.

Everyone else sees it as a joke.

Yes. Everyone. I guess IGN just isn't big enough to be considered part of "everyone".

 

[SmashChu]

Yes. Everyone. I guess IGN just isn't big enough to be considered part of "everyone".

Most discussion about the game dies if not that everyone else makes fun of it. Smash Boards is not looked highly upon by the outside world.

 

[El Duderino]

To everyone on the outside, Project M is a joke. It's for the same reason as I mentioned above. It's pointless to make a mod of the new game to mimic the old game.

How is Balenced Brawl any different? Are you saying just because a game is older, it's not worth revisiting, improving, or using to build a new game ontop of like Project M has?

 

[DrinkingFood]

To everyone on the outside, Project M is a joke.
...
Everyone else sees it as a joke.

I'm pretty sure smash in general is seen by the general competitive fighting game "community" as a joke. It's just a party game after all.
But calling it a joke doesn't make it so, however. It has to be proven a joke, like brawl has thoroughly done for itself. I mean c'mon, tripping is the most hilarious mechanic ever implemented in a fighting game, dontchya think? The lack of any notable non-grab or non-jab-lock combos is pretty great too.

EDIT: reworded in italics

 

[Big-Cat]

I saw Project M as going back to Melee as a base and then expanding on the potential left by Melee's design while retaining some of the potential left by Brawl. I don't remember Zelda being the Smash equivalent of Skullgirls' Parasoul (a complete coincidence) or actually being good.

 

[DrinkingFood]

But Project M is just trying to be Melee. It does nothing besides that.

Except ya'know, balance the entire cast, retain some mechanics from brawl, and return old stages (and likely a couple of characters) who were popular (among casuals, at least, even though they sucked competitively) but left out because Sakurai is nothing but genius.

But you know all these things because of how well informed you (and typical Brawl fans) are. [/sarcasm]

 

[Kink-Link5]

Actually, the only combos Brawl has are true combos, and they are absolutely toxic to the competitive community.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Actually, the only combos Brawl has are true combos, and they are absolutely toxic to the competitive community.

My use of the term true combo was off. I was just referring to combos where the opponent is being kept in hitstun, regardless of whether or not they could DI out. But yes, Brawl's chaingrab and jab-lock "combo"s are indeed toxic.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

My use of the term true combo was off. I was just referring to combos where the opponent is being kept in hitstun, regardless of whether or not they could DI out. But yes, Brawl's chaingrab and jab-lock "combo"s are indeed toxic.

I think everyone else calls them "infinites".

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes, those. Don't hear that word in reference to melee or P:M often because there's not many of them. Maybe a couple of tech chase grabs, which require hard reads, and fox's waveshine on certain characters.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I hardly ever played Melee and I think P:M is better than Brawl Just the fact that it removes tripping is enough for most casuals. The casuals I play with typically also enjoy the ability to actually KO below 200%, less floatiness, and the fact that there's no characters that are overwhelmingly good (MK)\terrible (ganon). I personally like how easy it is to pull off satisfying combos rather than being penalized by the game for successfully landing an attack. I mean, most casuals don't really ask for much. Melee was very accessible to the casual community; Brawl just changed it from being accessible to being dumbed down.

 

[Shadic]

How should it be/how was it in the other games? (Not trying to be sarcastic or anything. Just curious).

You can DI anything 18 degrees maximum, and can DI moves that don't send into tumble.

And just for the record, the majority of the response from IGN was positive, we gained 20,000 downloads in the 24 hours or so we were featured prominently on the IGN front page, and were the most read article on IGN that entire week.

So if popularity means success, P:M has it, eh?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How many times do we have tI go over this?

Even though Brawl sold 4 million more than Melee, this is likely a partial result of so many Wiis bought. 1 out of every 3 GC owners had Melee. 1 out of at least 9 Wii owners have Brawl.

I still don't get the relevance since the Wii was made more accessable to the casual crowd with the Mii stuff.

I hardly ever played Melee and I think P:M is better than Brawl Just the fact that it removes tripping is enough for most casuals. The casuals I play with typically also enjoy the ability to actually KO below 200%, less floatiness, and the fact that there's no characters that are overwhelmingly good (MK)\terrible (ganon). I personally like how easy it is to pull off satisfying combos rather than being penalized by the game for successfully landing an attack. I mean, most casuals don't really ask for much. Melee was very accessible to the casual community; Brawl just changed it from being accessible to being dumbed down.

Even casual at the Library I help kids at can kill at 130% in Brawl lol.

My use of the term true combo was off. I was just referring to combos where the opponent is being kept in hitstun, regardless of whether or not they could DI out. But yes, Brawl's chaingrab and jab-lock "combo"s are indeed toxic.

Quite a few true combos are in brawl.

It's just not, 8 hits or something of the sort. Only maybe Lucario or someone with similar low cooldowns can get away with that off hard reads of DI lol.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The problem is that the community isn't moving on and it's killing it from the inside.

When a new game comes out, players typically move on to the next one. Yes, not everyone likes it. Many will like the previous over the new one, but the same thing always happens. The players move on. Street Fighter 3 players move to SF4. Starcraft 1 players move onto 2(took a while since for many Brood War players, it's a career). Halo fans moved to Reach and will move to 4. Never have they tried to make the previous game. They move on. Players who don't like the new game stay with the old one and that's that.

Smash's problem is this resistance to just move on. It has held back the game (among other things. I'm sure I could write a lot on the scenes faults). There is too much of a divide in the community. Players are split, taking an already small community and breaking it up. If it isn't solved, the next game will destroy the community. It will split everyone again.

1. Players migrate onto sequels for a lot more reasons than "it came out later". Things such as bigger scenes, better netcode, good gameplay changes, and sponsors are all parts of why players from the games you mentioned moved to sequels, but Brawl doesn't offer sufficient amount of any of that to stop playing Melee for. Melee's metagame is still developing quickly after one decade and 4 years after it's sequel's release and that can't be said for any other series (MvC2 kind of being an exception but even that was slowing down at MvC3's release).
2. Brawl and Melee play so differently that they can be considered two completely different games as opposed to sequel and prequel, and it's not uncommon for a community to play more than one game.
3. Melee and Brawl players are barely a single community anyways.
4. If all the Melee discs in the world suddenly broke and the PMBR and every single copy of Project M disappeared into thin air tomorrow almost all of the Melee communty would rather just play other fighting games like MvC or KoF than play the sluggish disgusting abomination that is Brawl. Melee is not "splitting up" the community.
5. Unless Smash 4 ends up being a complete disaster (it won't), the Brawl community will probably move over to Smash 4 for good leaving the Brawl scene like the modern day Smash 64 scene. Then depending on how good Smash 4 is, the Melee community will either play Smash 4 for about a year and ditch it like Brawl if it's bad, play it as a side event like Project M Demo 2 if it's alright, or move over as well if it's a worthy sequel and/or the Melee metagame runs dry.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Eh...Smash 64 has a lot more reasons to why people moved away from it.

It's the most archaic, it lacks diversity on a number of fronts, it doesn't stand out on it's own well compared to the other two. It started the series and competitive smash started with melee.

 

[El Duderino]

The Smash community at large is in a pretty healthy place right now. You've got a scene that is sustaining two games in the series (+ some PM), a prolific modding community drawing in all kinds of people back in, and a popular game mod capable of driving traffic on a sight like IGN. There has never been so much variety or content to keep interest from waning.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just popping in with my two cents.

1. Hitstun cancelling removed altogether.
2. Shield regeneration reduced
3. Shield stun increased
4. No infinites, grab releases, or chaingrabs whatsoever - Brawl's level of locks and infinites is obscene.
5. Either no advantage or advantage for the person breaking out on grab releases. You broke out of a grab, you shouldn't be punished for it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Advantage would make throws unwieldy at low % and would screw with RPS - no advantage would be perfect imo.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Throws wouldn't be unwieldy unless you tried to get away with pummelling.

Regardless, yes no advantage for either would be optimal.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can break out of grabs at low % with a buffered throw and no pummels if you buffer the break-out, I believe.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm personally of the opinion that the only buffers should be during Jumpsquat and during launch for techs/jumpouts.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why is that?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Because doing nair after sliding off stage from a shield is rediculous

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's not that amazing or relevant except in doubles or characters with poor traction.

 

[dengel]

That's not that amazing or relevant except in doubles or characters with poor traction.

Nobody cares about Luigi