Mechanic Changes for SSB4

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Spoiler

Bold! Bold, I sa-*smack*OW!

Okay, fine. So apparently Mighty Glaciers should have decent speed. I'm sorry, but as the Kid Icarus Uprising board on GameFAQs would point out after twisting my points to say I would believe that clubs need to have mobility rather than the availability of more club-friendly trap powers (surprisingly, my Knight Charge power idea is just club-friendly by providing mobility, but it ends up being an expert's tool the way it works), why give speed to Mighty Glaciers? They're slow because otherwise, their power advantage would be a blatant one, which can easily end up rendering a character like Mario obsolete. That's how it is at least on paper.

Let's see:
*The Anti-Air Vehicle in Battalion Wars is incredibly useful and would be so even if it was the second slowest unit there, simply because of strong reason to have initiative, only truly hindered by being too important to want to have it near anti-armor surface forces without sufficient backup.
*The Battlestation, also in BW, does have several weapons on it, but more importantly, it solos against any surface AI unit without fail, especially when very blatant anti-armor abuse is required to send it to the scrap heap.
*The Hammer in Kirby Super Star and Kirby's (Epic) Return to Dream Land. There's a reason why it's considered a Game Breaker despite having short reach. Stone is likewise free invincibility whenever you want it.
*Purple Pikmin get their brokenness moniker in Pikmin 2 for a reason, when other Pikmin types there DON'T have weaknesses. Though chalk brokenness up to stun abuse and HEFTY multipliers. And try a no mature Pikmin run at some point. Those Fire Bulbears that Purple Pikmin pwn, for example? That's not happening anymore. You have to use Reds now. And I actually use Purples for Bulbears in general because of how aggravating they get to begin with due to high durability.

There's probably more examples. But the point is that speed isn't everything.

I can understand that speed isn't the most important thing, but we are talking about a fighting game, not an RTS game. In an RTS you have a wide plethora of units that all have specified strengths and weaknesses, where the only disadvantages you would have would be the player. Unless we are playing a fighting game where we can have a team with all of the characters in one round this comparison doesn't validate anything advantagous about the apparent lack of speed, and therefor, severe disadvantages that slower characters suffer from in the cast. For example: You can't use Pikmin as an example because you are playing against NPC's that are designed into the game so that they are beatable. Balance issues arise when you are playing a multiplayer game.

Fighters typically are 1 on 1 combat oriented, where each characters has a different set of moves and weaknesses. Player competence is important, but it can only go so far when a character has tools to help him approach and defend vs another character who has a lack of these tools.

I believe a key issue in smash is that generally being in the air puts you at a naturally advantageous position, so characters who are capable of being mobile in the air (The exception to the franchise being Melee, where characters had a larger variety of mobility options when grounded or staying close to the ground). Being able to DI your aerials, poke at shields and cancel aerials put any player who was capable to doing these things quickly at a natural advantage. Even the combo system that exest relies on extended juggles that start from the air, lead to a series of chain aerials or stems from a single hit from the ground. While this is good, there were no options to extend combos if you remained grounded during the duration of an attack (The exception being Fox's wave-shine in Melee and characters with good tilts, which depended on linking aerials to expand upon it) in the options on the ground offer very little rewards. Let's break it down:

In the air you have:

-5 possible attacks
-Aerial Canceling (Minimizing risk and opening up opportunities for combos)
-DI (This allowed you to freely control space between the opponent and attack, space an empty jump or trick the opponent without taking any possible risk)
-Air Dodge (Free and lagless in Brawl, basically an extremely easy cop out when low to the ground. There are no limitations to this as it puts you in a good defensive position almost every time when executed low to the ground)

On the ground:
-7 possible attacks (These attacks are non cancel able and can be punished unless the player is 100 percent accurate with their reading. These attacks can be beat by an aerial)
-Grabs (Generally useful, but against an opponent who can space themselves well they become useless. Can be easy to punish unless the character has a significantly long grab range)
-Roll and spot dodge (Can be very useful, but if read can lead to a free punish)
-Shielding (Common defensive option, can lead to different attacks or defensive options)

Now when you put them against eachother you can see where there are disadvantages. Whiffing an aerial in't as big of a risk vs whiffing a grounded attack, since the aerial gives you a wider variety of options to make it safe. Air dodging in Brawl doesn't give you the disadvantages of shielding since the air dodge makes you invulnerable (Melee rectified this issue by making the airdodge the same as a shield by offering are risk when using it) and when you land you return to a neurtal state vs taking a shield hit that leaves you in shield stun. Wave landing on the ground isn't as risky as rolling because you can go in either direction and still be able to use all of your ground options.

What smash 4 needs to do is use Melee as the building block for how the game should be played, but not replicate the specific mechanics that made it such, while at the same time expand on options that would allow slower and naturally grounded characters more options. Make it possible so that a character doesn't have to be air borne to do a combo. Some of the things that Kink-Link suggested would actually be very useful. Give characters solid options that are also unblockable like Bowers amazing Side B in Melee that doubles as an air grab and strong ranged hitbox. Speed isn't everything but based on almost every smash game speed and aerial mobility has given characters an undeniably natural advantage. This needs to be addressed more than anything else.

EDIT: In regards to my first paragraph I am aware of RTS games like Defense of the Ancients, League of Legends and Star Craft. There are some teams that posses natural advantages but these games usually rectify this with a balance patch. This is impossible with smash since Nintendo doesn't believe in patching these things, and doing so would require a greater length of time vs a traditional fighter. This makes it so much more critical that they make Smash the best they can. The staff only gets one shot, unless Nintendo does DLC, but that's a whole different story.

 

[Kink-Link5]

A lot.

Two strengths and six weaknesses

Seems reasonable.

I'm not playing the respond to every part of a post game, but I will say listing of heavy class characters being gamebreaking and polarising was my point to begin with. If you want to discuss individual points I will be glad to discuss them individually. This is a conversation, discussion, and I suppose in a sense, a debate, not a rhetorical analysis paper, and I will not be arguing over several things at once.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm not playing the respond to every part of a post game, but I will say listing of heavy class characters being gamebreaking and polarising was my point to begin with. If you want to discuss individual points I will be glad to discuss them individually. This is a conversation, discussion, and I suppose in a sense, a debate, not a rhetorical analysis paper, and I will not be arguing over several things at once.

^This. Seriously.

I have an extreme pet peeve with this. You shouldn't derail an argument for the sake of doing so, it appears as if you are trying to A) Use information out of context B) Prove that you are right in the argument rather than exchange ideas and information C) Show that you are unable to support your argument with your own rhetor.

We don't need any back fire here, please list out your ideas on a post to post basis.

Back to Topic.

 

[El Duderino]

Lets see, so far Master Knight has referenced Kid Icarus, Battalion Wars, Kirby Super Star, Return to Dream Land, and Pikmin while talking about how to make heavy characters in Smash more viable.

Anyone else here a little confused? There are lots of more relevant examples to pull from like any number of the Brawl mods that have been tackling this very issue for years. It makes theorizing over it a little pointless when you can already play working results.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not only that, but it's comparing apples to carrots. As you said, the various Brawl mods have attempted to address this while we have had "heavy" characters in fighters for years for reference/inspiration as well.

 

[Ove]

When I think about heavy characters in fighting games, I think of raw power and that good reads are rewarded with heavy damage. The character shouldn't have long combos, but instead shorter combos where you can feel the power behind every single attack that hits.

Slow movements must be compensated. Often, heavy characters are provided with lots of HP. In Smash, they can endure more thanks to decreasing knockback, which is great in order to survive longer. However, it's easier to do combos on them because of their big target nature as well as their decreasing knockback.

We can always discuss how a heavy character generally should be played in Smash 4. More specifically, it's up to the individual character's moveset to decide how it's going to be played, but the developers can always implement general tactics, for instance provide every heavy character with a good poke, combo starter and a special grab along with their heavy, powerful attacks.

 

[El Duderino]

This is really not rocket science. Go play DK, Ganon, Bowser, Charizard, Ike, or Bowser in Project M and the solution is painfully clear. Heavy characters can be viable by cutting the absurdly long landing lag on arials, having extra mobility options at their disposal, better setup moves, longer reach, and additional perks to their movesets.

They can still appear slower than the rest of the cast, but they need some relatively quicker tools to turn the match in their favor with each window of opertunity. The alternative of course is just buffing their stats and keeping them always stuck at the same snails pace, but that makes for a less dynamic, ho-hum characters. Just because they are big doesn't mean they have to always feel utterly sluggish to play as.

 

[Ove]

But that's basically the same thing as making a fast character (say Fox) much bigger. That takes away the charm with heavy characters, they are supposed to be slow, yet powerful. Unfortunately, in the previous installments, that has resulted in a serious disadvantage.

The "rocket science" in this case is to find the fine balance between power and speed.

Project M added Super Armor to more moves. I think this is a great tool to give heavy characters an advantage and at the same time keeping their signature nature.

 

[Big-Cat]

As I said earlier, Super Armor should be used sparingly on normals as I feel the appeal of it would wear off really quickly.

I think a very good thing that would change the prominence of aerials is to make anti-airs actually worth something. Either priority would apply to the clash between ground normals and aerials OR certain attacks are granted a crush property where they automatically beat aerials, provided that the attack is not beaten to the punch by the aerial.

Case in point, Daimon from KOF has plenty of normals for keeping the opponent out such as his s.LP and s.HK while most definitely being a grappler and gradually getting to the corner. This makes big characters scary as now they're shooing the pixies away like flies.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Most well made "large" characters in fighting games are slow, but really hard to get away from when they get in, and do a ton of damage too boot. I think they should go that route~ Like, I dunno make alot of there moves have frame advantage, or drag them towards you, or heck, put them in tripped or grounded state~

Usually they can accomplish this by giving em a great up close ground game, and an amazing anti-air so its hard to escape.

A good example of this is Kanji Tatsumi from persona 4 arena. He's slow. Really slow! but he still has ways too approach. He can summon a giant lighting bolt too several different locations that paralyzes the foe so there stuck in place so he can get in, and has a leaping grab that can hit the foe from basically anywhere, but is avoidable if they duck.

Once he DOES get in, he has a grab with full invincibility, an anti-air grab that beats out nearly everything in the air, and a move where he electrocutes himself that stuns the foe for even longer and gives him slight invisibility during it. All this, AND big damage and long range normals.

...and the guys still considered the worst character in the game just because of his mobility. But hey, atleast they gave him options to get in, and he's still viable. Much more viable then the likes of bowser or Ganon will ever hope to be. I'd like to see a character like that in smash. That has a few ways to get in, and won't let you leave once he does get in.

 

[El Duderino]

But that's basically the same thing as making a fast character (say Fox) much bigger. That takes away the charm with heavy characters, they are supposed to be slow, yet powerful.

Haha, that's not at all what I said. Way to twist it to the extreme. In Project M, all the heavy characters still play characteristically heavy compared to the rest of the cast. They are just not as handicapped by it for all the reasons I mentioned.

As for super armor, I think it has its place, but by itself it's not the solution. Bowser is pretty much the sole PM character that gains additional super armor from Brawl, but without his dramatically improved moveset and mobility it wouldn't amount to much.

 

[Ove]

Haha, that's not at all what I said. Way to twist it to the extreme. In Project M, all the heavy characters still play characteristically heavy compared to the rest of the cast. They are just not as handicapped by it for all the reasons I mentioned.

Let's have another look then.

This is really not rocket science. Go play DK, Ganon, Bowser, Charizard, Ike, or Bowser in Project M and the solution is painfully clear. Heavy characters can be viable by cutting the absurdly long landing lag on arials, having extra mobility options at their disposal, better setup moves, longer reach, and additional perks to their movesets.

Minimized landing lag on aerials, extra mobility, better setup moves and additional perks to their movesets? Sir, I am sorry, but that really sounds like your typical fast paced character to me. Only thing that seperates these attributes to a heavy character is the size. So basically, you want the heavy characters to be just like the good characters, only bigger.

As for super armor, I think it has it's place, but by itself it's not the solution. Bowser is pretty much the sole PM character that gains additional super armor from Brawl, but without his dramatically improved moveset and mobility it wouldn't amount to much.

It's a good tool in order to make the heavy characters somewhat decent. Besides, it gives you a strategy that seperates them from the rest of the cast.

Super Armor in Smash today is almost non-existent. I use the Super Armor properties that Olimar's whistle has, but other than that, I think I only use it when grabbing someone.

Give the heavy characters some command grabs and Super Armor on that, then we are talking...

 

[Big-Cat]

More importantly, you gotta implement grab breaks on throws or command grabs lose what makes them feared.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Most heavies already have air grabs as a benefit, as even Yoshis are starting to show how great the option is when used properly. I do agree that grab breaks through tapping away within 3 or so frames of being grabbed, would be a good way to compliment a dynamic defensive game though. Why push away instead of towards or grab? Good question, hypothetical person. The reason is to contrast the importance of shield angling. Since you shield angle by pushing toward your opponent generally, the grab break being an away input would make sense- You block attacks pushing forward, and get out of grabs by doing the opposite; a classic 50/50 game aspect.

 

[El Duderino]

Minimized landing lag on aerials, extra mobility, better setup moves and additional perks to their movesets? Sir, I am sorry, but that really sounds like your typical fast paced character to me. Only thing that seperates these attributes to a heavy character is the size. So basically, you want the heavy characters to be just like the good characters, only bigger.

Really? So having mostly slower attacks and slower general movement has nothing to do with it? Again, look at the heavy PM characters. They are still plenty slower, just a ton more capable than their Brawl and Melee counterparts. Less handicapped punching bags, more strategic heavy pressure providers. That's all because they have been granted the proper means to fight back through well designed tweaks and additional tools, all without becoming as you suggest simply bigger counterparts to faster characters.

Perhaps before telling me what I'm asking for again, you should better explore what you are arguing against. The beautiful thing is you can actually play it.

It's a good tool in order to make the heavy characters somewhat decent.

Again looking at PM Bowser, super armor is the cherry on top of the cake. You have to fix the base first if you want a good character. Super Armor can be a great perk for a heavy character, but in the context of Smash's free-form agile fighting, it's not going to solve their problems.

 

[KingJacob]

I would definitely like to see the removal of power-shielding, and the bringing back of combos. I also would not mind a mode with tag battles, MvC style.

 

[Ove]

@El Duderino: my point is that the things you listed can be seen on lighter characters. Yes, the heavy characters have their attributes as well, but you can't say heavy characters should be slow and also have extra mobility. And Super Armor is STILL a good tool to make them somewhat decent. I didn't say it's the one and only thing that will change their playstyle, did I?

Concerning the shield discussion, I don't think we should change that too much. Call me conservative, but the one thing that is unique with smash is the shield.

Grab breaks isn't anything we need. That would prevent grabs being inside combos, wouldn't it? Command grabs can still be feared if they do a lot of damage.

 

[El Duderino]

@El Duderino: my point is that the things you listed can be seen on lighter characters. Yes, the heavy characters have their attributes as well, but you can't say heavy characters should be slow and also have extra mobility.

Mobility is nothing more than having the freedom of movement. You can absolutely improve a slow characters mobility without making them resemble faster characters and still maintain the heavy risk, heavy reward playstyle. It's already been done.

Again look at Project M, Charazards down-B and aerial forward-B, Bowsers cancelable down-B, Ike's cancelable forward-B, DKs dask attack, etc. They still certainly play like heavy characters, but in the right situation that added mobility can make all the difference. It gives them the edge they so desperately need to be competitive. Couple that with universal tools like wavedashing and L-canceling, most of the horrendously broken mobility handicap dicipates. What you are left with is heavy fighters that are still characteristically slow, but can actually stand their ground and have room to strategically take charge of a match. Not just be trapped as some easy to out maneuver punching bag counting on trade-off exchanges.

I think you're just getting mixed up with this idea that added mobility options are going to tarnish their originality, identity, and playstyle. It can be quite the opposite actually. When done correctly, as seen with many characters in PM, it exemplifies their traits and unique strengths. Again, not saying you have to agree with all the changes in the mod, but as a whole it works well to fix these problems.

 

[Ove]

Like I said, it's a matter of finding the right balance between power and speed in order to make the heavy characters more viable. I think we all can agree on that.

PM made the heavy characters more accessible, which of course is great. Hopefully Sakurai will do something similar in Smash 4.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The bad way to go about balancing a heavy character is to make them stupidly slow but kill in one hit or three or whatever. This is the kind of thing that creates an absurdly polarising character; no matter what their matchup average is, their matchups will always be ridiculously skewed toward one of the characters. If you can abuse their lack of speed and run in and **** them over your character has a free win; if you can't get around their massive moves that take up a third of the stage even though they take 40 frames to come out, it's an unwinnable matchup. No one has fun with these kinds of characters because every matchup is ******** and filled with fraudulent bull****.

 

[El Duderino]

Like I said, it's a matter of finding the right balance between power and speed in order to make the heavy characters more viable. I think we all can agree on that.

Of course fine tuning their stats is important. It's not necessarily going to solve all their inherent matchup problems if they are to stay in character, but it's a start. Giving them the adequate tools to work with is the other big part of turning those matchups around, which yes, often involves improving mobility and providing better setup moves.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ok, so the amout of time yr invincible after a ledge-grab is decided by damage and air-time.
I like this, because characters that have multi-jumps and tricky ways to recover in general, will probably be easier to hit when they grab the ledge.