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Mechanic Changes for SSB4

Kink-Link5

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That was the idea behind the Smashball waiting for at least a minute to pass before showing up. Sakurai's default "playtest" scheme is the default 2 minute matches if the several Brawl demos are an indication. With such a basis, the Final Smash often ends up being the ultimate decisive factor in that last minute.
 

Pyra

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I was referring to competitive smash players, not competitive gamers in general or even competitive fighting game players in general. Yeah we're hard to please, but it's already been proven that our wishes are very compatible with the casual crowd- nothing we want really affects them. And of course, how easy the game is to learn is no matter to serious competitve players- I think most of us just want a challenge at an upper level. I guess what I'm getting at is that you're right, but catering to competitive players only addresses the skill ceiling rather than the skill floor. Now of course anything not addressed by "catering to competitve players" (ie skill ceiling, play speed, balance) should be addressed according to the desires of the less serious players, but by their nature of taking the game not quite as seriously, their concerns should be the last to be acted upon. This doesn't imply that they shouldn't like the game though, only that they will probably like it anyways and thus shouldn't be the standard. A good game's standard should be set by the desires of its pickiest players, so that it will probably be pleasing to everyone.
Regardless of what they do to address the "skill ceiling" of the game, there will always be that mob of competitive players complaining about how the game is still too "noob-friendly".

Besides, from a business standpoint, a vast majority of Smash's audience are casual players so catering to them would probably rake in more cash.

I agree that catering to the game's "pickiest players" and most competitive players won't really affect casuals much. Just give competitive people more reasons to complain about how "this version isn't as good as that version because this mechanic isn't as x as the one in the other version".

The slower pace in Brawl actually gives more rookies actual chances in competitions too instead of getting blasted in the self-esteem at every tournament due to everyone else mastering all the intense elements of the game. But then again, casuals NEVER play in tournaments! No! I guess that's what practice is for! :awesome:

What am I getting at again? I forget. Disregard my rant.

In regards to the actual topic of the thread, I think there should be no tripping, no snapping to the edge of the stage, and no outrageous floatiness. Otherwise, I'm fine with the game.
 

DrinkingFood

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Disregard my rant.
I'll do just that, considering it's filled with inaccuracies and largely misunderstands my post.

. I also hope they make sure there's no way to wavedash- that wasn't supposed to be in the "incomplete" Melee anyways and people act as if it's a necessity. Keep the mechanics balanced between Melee and Brawl like some Mod Projects have been doing and I'll be very pleased.
Pray tell what it is that upsets you about wavedashing. It's like you have a vendetta against it or something. It WAS supposed to be in melee btw- air dodging gives you momentum, momentum on the ground makes you slide, so airdodging INTO the ground makes you land instantly and slide along the ground because of the momentum. That's exactly how the game physics are supposed to work. The only difference in Brawl is that the airdodge doesn't give you momentum like Melee's dynamic airdodge.

I would also like to know what Mod project balances melee and brawl mechanics. Project M is almost completely Melee, and the most popular mod for Brawl. Brawl+ is almost completely melee with some changes (and we all see how well that one turned out). Brawl- has a tiny bit of melee mechanics, hitstun closer to 64 (more actually), and lots of stuff that's original to the game. It's mostly just Brawl with high hitstun though. Balanced Brawl is just Brawl but better balanced. None of these are a notable mix of the two games, because the physics are basically incompatible.
 

Pyra

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Your post sparked a "competitive brawlers are getting annoying with their whining about non-challenging mechanics" rant that had nothing to do with your post, which is why I said disregard it xD. I live to make stupid posts fueled by lack of sleep, man. I actually agree with what you said, which is what I realized halfway through typing it.


Edit: I'll just stear clear of game mechanic threads until I get sufficient sleep ;u;
*slowly disappears into the loser corner*
:phone:
 

DrinkingFood

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Err ok lol. I'm no longer what to make of these posts of yours lol. No biggie though. Just know that the only times I won't give a full fledged response to even the most uninformed posts are when I'm otherwise occupied, or on my phone and don't feel like using this ****ty keyboard more than necessary...
 

TheReflexWonder

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I would also like to know what Mod project balances melee and brawl mechanics. Project M is almost completely Melee, and the most popular mod for Brawl. Brawl+ is almost completely melee with some changes (and we all see how well that one turned out). Brawl- has a tiny bit of melee mechanics, hitstun closer to 64 (more actually), and lots of stuff that's original to the game. It's mostly just Brawl with high hitstun though. Balanced Brawl is just Brawl but better balanced. None of these are a notable mix of the two games, because the physics are basically incompatible.
I mean, all of them balance the mechanics a good deal, partly to compensate currently unfixable issues with modding, and partly because it's inherent to character designs. Brawl+ certainly felt more like N64+Brawl than Melee to me (though the only version I've ever played was 6.0). It was faster, but most of the moves and tactics were kept very similar to their Brawl counterparts, with greater upgraded movement speeds and somewhat greater hitstun.

As far as P:M goes, the same is the case as far as a balance of mechanics being inherent to the limits of modifying the current characters. Wario, Dedede, Zelda, and Charizard, for example, still play VERY similarly to their Brawl counterparts, despite the changes made to their movesets and the physics around them. Many of the not-so-good Melee character ports upgraded them almost entirely by throwing away some Melee properties and giving them their Brawl moves/ATs, like Pikachu. Ledges are governed by Brawl ledgesnap size due to not being able to implement Melee ledge teching.

Obviously, when considering the movement speed and physics, the game relies heavily on trying to copy Melee, but I think it's silly to suggest that the individual characters' movesets and options play a negligible role on how the universal physics affect the game.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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This is going to be a long post. I've thought a lot about this kind of stuff, and if I were on the dev team (which I'm not, sadly) this is what I'd suggest.

Brawl vs Melee is a foolish debate to be fixated on from a development standpoint. Your main goal here is to make a smash game that follows the general ideas of the series while going in a new direction that makes for the best game yet. Melee and Brawl are both instructive games for your design ideas, but it's not like they are opposite ends of a spectrum and you're trying to find some middle ground.

Ledge behavior is a problem in both games. It's easier to abuse ledges in Brawl, but planking is possible in Melee too it's just harder and Melee doesn't have Meta Knight or G&W with his good nair from Brawl. You also have really hated interactions with ceilings near ledges (like Melee Battlefield or Brawl Final Destination) that deserve some serious thought as well, and ledge detection coming from the "wrong" side (very easy to do on pass-through floors like Melee DK64 or Brawl Delfino Plaza) kinda sucks across the board. To get to it, you need to think of the core gameplay of ledges. Grabbing ledges is supposed to be mostly easy if the opponent didn't actually follow you off-stage which is a huge risk on their part, but being on a ledge is supposed to be a disadvantaged position. From the ledge, the endangered player needs to be trying to find a way safely back onto solid ground and neutral position. The ledge offers five options: attack, climb, roll, jump, and drop. The abuses come from the fact that the fastest and most flexible option, drop, can be easily followed up by a simple regrab. In fact, drop carries extremely little risk compared to the other options so it mostly dominates the ledge game anyway.

The solution to planking and to establishing the ledge as a workable but disadvantaged position is simple. If you ledge drop, you can't grab another ledge until you reach solid ground or get hit. Ledge drop is still pretty good like this, but there's only really one viable thing to do if you can't grab any ledges at all if you don't get back on stage and that's immediately move to get back on stage. That's still your fastest and most flexible option with most characters (double jump and aerial of choice tends to be a safer thing to go for than any of the more restrictive ledge options), but of course ledge traps are a lot better since as the on-stage defender you can move forward and throw out hitboxes in response to seeing the opponent drop knowing where they have to go next. Of course, if you move too far forward before they commit to dropping, they'll just roll right past you, and a lot of the seemingly clever ways to cover both roll and drop would lose to at least one of the generally inferior three options (climb, attack, or jump). This whole suggestion would be both revolutionary and intuitive. It would be revolutionary because it would completely change the nature of the ledge game as it pertains to the currently strongest option, but it would also be intuitive given that it would always have a really clear causality why you couldn't grab the ledge.

Controlling how intentional ledge grabs are and how hard it is sometimes to grab ledges is best addressed by examining another good mechanic all smash games have. If you hold down, you can't grab ledges. This is great mechanic that I'm sure every decent player here has made great use of already. I propose that the converse should be true. If you are holding up, ledge detection should grow to be very generous in all directions. It should be so generous as to scoop you out from under the ceilings on stages with them and very good at sucking you to the ledge from inside the ground as well. This will mostly not interfere with legitimate tactics since holding up is not generally useful though there should be some delay between expanded detection and hitting up (a small handful of frames) to allow for up specials to be performed in the vicinity of ledges without forcing a ledge grab and so generally it will be looking for "hold up" and not "tap up". Then set your baseline ledge detection when holding nothing/left/right to something a bit less generous than Brawl but much closer to Brawl's detection than Melee's with the caveat that if you are facing backward ledge detection should be very strict (it should still be possible to grab ledges while facing away and not holding up, but it should require you to be virtually right on top of the ledge). That makes neutral ledge grabbing still mostly easy but less likely to happen at unintended times which should be your biggest goal (making sure as often as possible players are getting the interactions they want when they try for stuff).

Hitstun is another sticking point. Generally the issue is this. Landing hits should be rewarding, but loops and long combos are bad for the game. Part of this is simple parametrization work that needs to be done carefully; moves like Sheik's ftilt in Brawl should just not exist like they do. A hardcoded lock against chainthrows could help as well ("thrown" is a different state than "hit"; just make "thrown" ungrabbable which incidentally also does a lot to make Ice Climbers a non-stupid character if they're going to return at all and of course "grab release" states should also be unthrowable). However, once you get past better parametrization practices and chainthrow fixes, you get to the core issue which is that in Brawl landing hits too often doesn't seem to be particularly great for the attacker whereas in Melee getting hit often screws you just too badly. Of course, situationally you find counter-examples both ways like getting hit with certain moves near walls in Brawl or getting hit with several of the generally bad moves in Melee. I think the best solution is something like hitstun scaling but designed for smash. Make hitstun somewhat more generous than Brawl (the interruptible semi-hitstun is a neat gimmick but should probably be put at 2/3 through hitstun not 1/2), but as moves are comboed actually scale base knockback up on each additional hit. Most moves that create exploitable situations rely on keeping the enemy close so an in-built system that causes comboing to push enemies away would be pretty great. As another practical matter, it would also quickly make wall locks create enough knockback to make the hit techable. The overall effect would probably be that upon landing one of those "combo starter" moves, instead of trying to link as many fast moves as possible to do stupid damage you'd do a minimum of those and try to transition into either the most powerful move you can combo into or just something that will put the enemy off-stage. It should also generally be implied to go along with hitstun, but shieldstun should probably also be slightly higher with repeated moves into a shield with continuous blockstun increasing pushback. Either that or just let the player powershield the first hit of any new move even if you're in blockstun before it hits (this would also include being able to powershield the start of each loop of a rapid jab).

Mashing also needs fixed though it's not as serious as some other issues. Grab breaks are a pretty dumb skill to reward. In principle, the choice of whether to mash to break throws is interesting since if you mash to to try to break out you most likely give up DI. However, a handful of superhuman mashers have a real advantage over everyone else because of a pretty ridiculous ability they have to hit buttons really, really fast. The simple solution for this mashing situation is just to cap mash inputs within a certain window so the game rewards mashing vigorously but being a super-human masher no longer helps you. Also, breaks should be a bit harder at low percentages and a bit easier at higher percentages. Characters with slow pummels often can't go for any at all until high damage, and that's pretty dumb. At said high damage, characters with very fast pummels can often do a whole lot, and that's also pretty dumb. Flattening out the break timing a bit (and also trying to avoid really awful pummels existing at all) would make the whole "go for pummel?" game play out better across the cast.

The other mash issue is how the game handles SDI and the deal with multi-hit moves in general, and it's a bit more complex how you address that. Again in principle, multi-hit moves having the inherent risk of being escapable versus their generally superior damage is good design. Problems come when you start introducing particularly good players who can very consistently escape a majority of multi-hit moves in virtually all circumstances mostly making those moves just plain terrible. Especially bad is a move like Pikachu's down smash which is completely devastating against bad players but nearly worthless against good players because bad players always eat every hit and good players almost never eat more than two hits. I think the solution is to minimize or even remove SDI but increase the role of aSDI. The idea would be this. You should generally be able to wiggle out of multi-hit moves if you get hit near the edge of the area (like if G&W's beloved turtle hits you with his nose or such) but if you get hit deep it shouldn't be escapable. This will make multi-hit moves retain their basic design of more reward for potential lack of reliability but make the reliability based on situation of use rather than on the mash ability and game knowledge of the opponent.

Airdodges are another core issue, and it goes back to the bigger issue of using excessive aerial mobility to run away. This is a tough one since stages that are defective by design (i.e. Hanenbow) will always enable such tactics in any smash styled engine. Airdodges are the thing though since they let the fleeing characters remain safe. In general I think airdodges play out better in Brawl than in Melee since Melee airdodges just get you killed if not used very near the ground or a ledge, but both cases miss the mark of what should be an "aerial spotdodge" that is generally safe to use but punishable if baited. Brawl airdodges have two issues. One is that they generally recover just too fast, especially the airdodges of most of the new to Brawl characters which are most probably for animation design reasons that never should have been important to the game like this 10 frames faster than normal airdodges which is a whole lot since we're talking about less than a second animations. Airdodges should be a little slower than a standard Brawl airdodge (like Jigglypuff's) but generally quite close to that (maybe 55 total frames?) and nothing should be in the realm of the faster ones (no more Wario airdodge!). If they all don't have the exact same frame data, it should be a case of deliberate design (like maybe DK and Bowser have a few frames faster airdodges to make up for their general weakness in juggle situations otherwise). Further, airdodges should be used as a "dodge" not as a part of your mobility. Landing during the invincible frames of an airdodge should have a brief but real landing animation (after the invincibility ends, they should of course auto-cancel like most aerial attacks can). This animation should be very brief, just long enough to be hittable if the opponent is specifically going for it knowing what you're trying to do but not punishable on reaction under any circumstance. Furthermore, while moving when airdodging is inevitable, airdodging while bobbing around shouldn't be possible. Air control inputs, including beginning to fastfall, should simply be ignored during an airdodge. The short version of what this means is that airdodging would not affect your character's velocity but it would completely prevent input based acceleration for its duration, which would further greatly limit potential use by someone like Wario for the purpose of running away. Combined with ledge changes and assuming generally reasonable stage design (i.e. not Temple), run-away would probably not be particularly good at all like this.

Certain new move properties need to exist:

-"No powershield": This should exist on very slow moves like Falcon Punch. These are the easiest moves to powershield but also the ones that as a matter of design we should want powershielded least often since they're the easiest to avoid otherwise and powershielding tends to be a reaction response no prediction required. Similarly, fully charged smashes should not be powershieldable (but any partial charge, even one frame short of a full charge, should still be powershieldable if the move is in general). I wouldn't make this a common hitbox flag for sure, but I think it would be nice to exist.

-"Weak clash (percentage)": Currently hitbox clashing is very simple. Hitboxes that do more than 10% greater damage than the other destroy the opposing hitbox. If they're within 10%, they clash. Certain moves, or should I just say Mach Tornado, use this to have absurdly high priority. A special move property by which any given hitbox can be destroyed by variably weak hitboxes (maybe for Mach Tornado the opposing hitbox only needs to be 5% stronger instead of 10%) would be great. This should for the most part be seldom used but would be a bit of a reversal on transcendent priority. It's a rare type of priority that results in reduced, not increased, effectiveness overall.

-"Unscaled" and "Minimum scaling": These come into play for the same reason. The overall damage and knockback scaling system Brawl uses is actually very good, but some of the outlier cases can get kinda dumb when small hits designed to set up for other hits don't actually reliably link. Off the top of my head I'm mostly thinking of jabs which should have minimum scaling such that jab combos are still actually combos (of course, several jab combos in Brawl never combo which just shouldn't be!), but I could swear there are other cases as well.

In general special incapacitated states should not be loopable. An opponent flinching from a footstool shouldn't be capable of being victimized by another footstool. A tripped opponent shouldn't be trippable by a banana peel. This is how infinites are born. Brawl has all sorts of corner abuse cases like this, and it could all be fixed by just making this the general rule for all special incapacitation states.

Sudden death should respect percentage differences between players as a tie-breaker. Actual sudden death itself should, instead of using raining bombs to force games to end, instead simply begin to shrink the blast zones forcing the players closer and closer together, creating a king of the hill situation sure to quickly resolve. Serious players should not have to ignore the game's in-built tie-breaking system!

The only real speed issues that separate Melee and Brawl beyond match pacing issues (which are the implication of the whole system, not a matter of actual speed) are some Melee ATs which to be very blunt I don't think should come back (they make the game a whole lot less accessible and design wise are mostly side-grades to the game, making it different but not necessarily better or worse) and fall speeds. Fall speeds I would handle like this. The difference for a typical character between fastfalling and normal falling should be increased with normal falls generally being Brawlish whereas fastfalls would just be, well, faster. Likewise though, I think characters should have greater variety in fall speeds. I don't think it's a problem for someone like Falco to fall like Falco did in Melee (as long as you don't introduce the horrible hit physics that made vertical KOs mostly depend on victim fall speed, much to the disadvantage of characters like Bowser), but I don't think someone like Jigglypuff needs to fall an iota faster than she did in Brawl and I don't think a character should have to be like Jigglypuff to be floaty for that matter. Just increasing the spread I think could make everyone happy so people who like floaties won't end up in the "Jigglypuff or nothing" sitaution they were in in Melee but likewise people who like falling fast can have their rock characters as well. We expect a roster of around 50 so I'm sure there's plenty of room here to make everyone happy in this regard.

The amazing thing is that I could carry on for at least twenty times this long, but I think I've hit most of the high points. The summary is that they should look at their engine as a whole, think of the things that have given them problems in the past, and work to re-enforce the underlying design while delivering the best possible gameplay.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I think all of these points are excellent. You clearly put a lot of thought into that.

As far as SDI goes, they could just lower the SDI multiplier. Squirtle's D-Air and Ivysaur's N-Air are almost inescapable via SDI because of a 0.2x and 0.3x multiplier, respectively. Also, just make it so that moves don't freeze people in place when they're part of an multi-hit move. Think Melee G&W B-Air--That was fine.
 

El Duderino

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Brawl vs Melee is a foolish debate to be fixated on from a development standpoint. Your main goal here is to make a smash game that follows the general ideas of the series while going in a new direction that makes for the best game yet. Melee and Brawl are both instructive games for your design ideas, but it's not like they are opposite ends of a spectrum and you're trying to find some middle ground.
While I entirely agree with this, reading through your post there are some suggestions that do make sense more in the context of Brawl than the series as a whole. Not that you are wrong or off base, just that say a Project M developer might have a different view of the problems and solutions. It's just naturally going to happen based on personal preferences, and differing goals with your Mods.

Say for one example, the suggestion that holding up should increase ledge detection. In the context of Brawl it makes sense, but a Melee or 64 fan might question how that affects using up-B as an attack near a ledge. Each concern I would say is completely valid. Like you mentioned, it's not like we are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but tunnel vision for one game in the franchise does come into play. That's why it's important to look at a breath of opinions across each game in the franchise.
 

Kink-Link5

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Sharing this here as well


Powershields are replaced by large Flash Shields, which cover all of a character, then shrink to small size after 1~5 frames. I don't know what the best balance here would be for frame data, but I feel like this would be a nice best-of-all-worlds idea, to make "powershielding" more in line with an automatic "proper" shield. Because of how the Smash series goes about its conventions, the current powershielding mechanic is nearly a crapshoot. Very few moves have a large enough startup with appropriate auditory cues to make powershielding something that can be done as a show of appropriate reaction, rather than a fortunate absurdly, ridiculously more advantageous guard that happens frankly, by pure happening.
Edit/Delete Message
 

DakotaBonez

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Shields that break when hit by fully charged smash attacks or moves similar to Falcon Punch.

Shields that CANNOT be poked through when they get too small.

A Meter for Final Smash would be odd, but even the smash bros ripoffs went with a meter. It would suit competitive play better as player's build it up by executing attacks as opposed to losing it even though you hit the smash ball first.
I would say just make it so the smash ball breaks easier but characters like Sonic who are fast, or ROB who can fly would have an advantage at getting it. While we're at it heavy balancing on the final smash attacks is needed. ROB and Sonic become invincible monsters.
 
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Kuma and Kink were also speaking about an idea about shielding that I feel should be addressed: The use for shield angling. There is very little benefit to angling shield in smash besides in Melee when you can use it to cause an auto ledge drop on Marth when he is recovering, allowing you to edge hog him without a chance of coming back unless he "sweet spots" the ledge.

Shield should retain stun depending on where the shield is angled vs. the attack trajectory. Say if you are shielding against Mario's Short hopped Fair in this situation. If you have your shield neutral it would retain a normal shield stun with minor pushback. But if you ere to angle the shield up the amount of shield stun would be less with a more reasonable pushback to avoid a possible mix up or more shield damage. This works because you're shielding up is apposing the downward trajectory or the attack, similar to a parry. Now, if you were to shield at a downward angle you would take heavy shield stun from the fair very minor pushback and more shield damage. The same as doing an overhead normal on the enemy. The same principals will also work towards moves that give characters momentum like Sheik, Sonic, and Zamus's divekicks or Kirby's Stone attack, the bane of the casual player that's a virtually a death from above for people who can't seem to evade it. But on the same token, if someone were to shield down while being hit by Kirby's stone he would be able to recover from it soundly if he cancels it immediately. Depending on where you angle the shield you also expose another part of your body that can be bit. If you constantly block up you will be exposed to a D-tilt for example.

This shield mechanic would also benefit players who have the ability to angle the tilts of their attacks. Players like Mario and Samus would have an effective mix up game that allows aerial mix ups and pokes. Let's say Mario hit's someone with a SHFF Bair and immediately turns around and does a short hop. The opponent expecting a Fair, angles his shield high. Mario fakes the enemy out by fast falling and doing a down angled F-smash that connects because of the lower body exposure. His other options would have also been D-tilt, Dash attack or down angled F-tilt since they all hit at a fairly low angle. While this seems powerful for a character who could execute aerials and tilts seamlessly like Marth, it wouldn't be balanced. Since he has nothing that can be used as a solid spike the opponent could just have to shield neutral or down if he throws out an D-tilt since he cannot angle tilts or smashes.

There are probably a few flaws with this idea that someone could notice but I don't think it would be that bad all things considered.
 

DrinkingFood

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I like both of those last two ideas. Making shields have more potential for a learned player as well as making them a more valuable resource due to increased shield health but much less regeneration both add to the strategetic depth of the game by requiring the players to conserve them for when they need them most, in addition to making shield pressuring more effective for the long run rather than for just one combo string. I personally would also like to see them able to be angled a lot greater distance while decreasing their size.
 

Big-Cat

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Kuma and Kink were also speaking about an idea about shielding that I feel should be addressed: The use for shield angling. There is very little benefit to angling shield in smash besides in Melee when you can use it to cause an auto ledge drop on Marth when he is recovering, allowing you to edge hog him without a chance of coming back unless he "sweet spots" the ledge.

Shield should retain stun depending on where the shield is angled vs. the attack trajectory. Say if you are shielding against Mario's Short hopped Fair in this situation. If you have your shield neutral it would retain a normal shield stun with minor pushback. But if you ere to angle the shield up the amount of shield stun would be less with a more reasonable pushback to avoid a possible mix up or more shield damage. This works because you're shielding up is apposing the downward trajectory or the attack, similar to a parry. Now, if you were to shield at a downward angle you would take heavy shield stun from the fair very minor pushback and more shield damage. The same as doing an overhead normal on the enemy. The same principals will also work towards moves that give characters momentum like Sheik, Sonic, and Zamus's divekicks or Kirby's Stone attack, the bane of the casual player that's a virtually a death from above for people who can't seem to evade it. But on the same token, if someone were to shield down while being hit by Kirby's stone he would be able to recover from it soundly if he cancels it immediately. Depending on where you angle the shield you also expose another part of your body that can be bit. If you constantly block up you will be exposed to a D-tilt for example.

This shield mechanic would also benefit players who have the ability to angle the tilts of their attacks. Players like Mario and Samus would have an effective mix up game that allows aerial mix ups and pokes. Let's say Mario hit's someone with a SHFF Bair and immediately turns around and does a short hop. The opponent expecting a Fair, angles his shield high. Mario fakes the enemy out by fast falling and doing a down angled F-smash that connects because of the lower body exposure. His other options would have also been D-tilt, Dash attack or down angled F-tilt since they all hit at a fairly low angle. While this seems powerful for a character who could execute aerials and tilts seamlessly like Marth, it wouldn't be balanced. Since he has nothing that can be used as a solid spike the opponent could just have to shield neutral or down if he throws out an D-tilt since he cannot angle tilts or smashes.

There are probably a few flaws with this idea that someone could notice but I don't think it would be that bad all things considered.
I think the variances in shield stun because of angling might be over complicating things, especially from a programming perspective. The way I see it, it should be where your shield overlaps with the hitbox, keeping you safe. If the attack doesn't hit the shield hitbox, but your hurtbox, you take damage. Blocking should be intuitive while allowing a lot of freedom in defending and mixups.
 
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^Agreed. I never understood how I can have a shield bubble that blocks all attacks when it doesn't even encompass my body, but having the shield act as a physical barrier is definitely the way to go. Perhaps some characters can be an exception to the rule, such as Link who actually has a shield, should be able to block attacks despite his shield shrinking, but only in that direction link is facing.
 

Big-Cat

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I was thinking that the shrinking should go. Rather, if we're going for what we're discussing, it should be like Yoshi's shield where it gets darker and darker before shattering.
 

Kink-Link5

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Agreed. The point of shields shrinking was to get shield pokes, which would happen anyway with universally smaller, albeit longer lasting, shields. Yoshi's always large shield would actually warrant his ****ty OoS options.

See, a lot of other fighting games don't have the liberty of making such a singular aspect so diverse and defining among its cast. Street Fighter's best comparison is the stun threshold (the stun meter was an amazing idea btw Capcom, why it was removed I'll never know), while other games have sort of equivalences? Like, BBCS has the guard primers, which are different for each character, but the general flow of the game makes the differing amounts of primers nearly negligible as a differing feature of characters. But with a flexible, highly variable engine like Smash runs on, the highly analog nature of the game lends itself to complex thresholds of varying degrees. Characters can have different size shields, or some could angle them more than others, some might have very crappy shields in size, but great, safe options out of their shield.

Just a few aspects that can be made individual to each characters' shields-

Flash Shield/Powershield duration
Flash Shield size
Shield size
Shield angling ability
Shield drop speed
Shield DI ability
OoS options

There are many more subtle aspects to shields, all of which still have room upon which to be expanded.

The same can be said for a lot of aspects of the game actually. The level of analog control Smash offers is something that makes it stand out from any other fighting game I can think of, and is part of what gives it such a commanding feeling when playing. You have total control over your character right off the bat, with almost no moves or actions that can't be done instantly from a standing position. Dial-A combos and Marth's Side B are the only examples of the contrary I can think of.
 

EverythingSmash

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Not really sure why, but It seems like it take much, much, longer to die in brawl. When the previous to installments, you die more quickly. (Or at least it seems that way to me at least.) Also don't really like how good everyone's recovery is in brawl, & especially how far the grab reach for ledges is.

& I dont really understand the logic of ever adding tripping, could never really rap my head around that. Haha
 

Kink-Link5

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Not really sure why, but It seems like it take much, much, longer to die in brawl. When the previous to installments, you die more quickly. (Or at least it seems that way to me at least.) Also don't really like how good everyone's recovery is in brawl, & especially how far the grab reach for ledges is.
Survivability is greater in Brawl due to increased DI potency on launch attacks, stale move negation having a greater effect on moves, hitstun canceling and momentum canceling, larger ledge snap ranges, slower fall speeds, and I believe lesser knockback growth on several moves. Don't hold me to that last one, but all the other ones are 100% accurate.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Back in Melee, for characters like Ganondorf, they may not always make it back to the battlefield when sent flying. However, in Brawl, even for someone who has the worst recovery, it's still possible to make it back to the battlefield.

Obviously, parts of this dilemma is due to the size of the boundary lines; Melee's Final Destination has larger boundaries than Brawl's Final Destination, or at least that's what it looks like.
 

Ove

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You don't even need to use UpB (or correspondent move) to get back to the battlefield in most cases, providing you have your double jump. If you don't have your double jump, then you can always use your recovery move...

I have just like MaSG observed this, whereas in Melee (and especially in SSB64), you you could get kills way under 100% thanks to good edgeguarding. That felt veery rewarding.

In Brawl, however, I usually have to kill my opponents by smashing them out off the top or side boundaries, which often requires high %.
 

Vkrm

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It also doesnt help that agressive play in brawl gets you messed pretty bad. I don't really watch a lot of competitive brawl but from what I've seen top players favor keep away and defensive play instead of the angry bumrush style that melee had. On top of that when it's time for someone to get punished you can only tack on a couple % cuz there's no combos.

:phone:
 

Kink-Link5

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Playing aggro in almost any video game will get you slaughtered.

The difference you're looking for is that Melee has a balance of offensive movement options and defensive tools, while Brawl has very few movement options at all and a linear defensive game.

Brawl's kind of schizo really. It has a one-dimensional defense that makes it easy-modo to play safely and avoid over dedicating to things, but no punishment options after a punishment opportunity. It's something of a zero-sum game where approaching is easily stuffed, but there isn't anything either player can really do to change that. It ends up being very tit-for-tat in even matchups, with slow damage being added until very high percents. On the other side, you have locks, chain grabs, and infinites abound that solidify high tier characters acting as tier barriers for anyone under them and force other high tier characters to play with even more of a "Don't approach" mindset.

Smash64 shows that combos don't make a game emphasise offensive gameplay in any way, since one mistake in your offense means an easy punishment opportunity for the other, more defensive and safe player, and a stock loss for you. It is a requirement of movement options that inherently makes a game more offensive, because it makes it easier to get around, and easier to "bob and weave" through a footsie game.

I can say with confidence that Brawl even without its combos, with Melee movement and canceling options in place, would be naturally more offensively geared simply because players can force mistakes through offensive pressure more easily by utilizing a healthy mixture of complex approach options.
 

Johnknight1

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Honestly what constitutes "traditional fighter"? Capcom 6-button fighters? Any and only Capcom fighter?

The term is thrown around so vaguely and with such different context I can't even tell anymore. There are Capcom fanboys that regard anything that isn't Marvel or the current version of Street Fighter 4 as "***gy anime fighters," just as there are ignorant Smash players who throw out "traditional fighter" as an insult, or, at the very least, a pejorative term for anything requiring a 236 input.
Capcom fighting game fanboys are the worst freaking gaming fan base in the universe. They all think they are freaking hardcore. Actually, no I know a fan base that is just as bad as them: The Call of Booty fan base. LMAO at them thinking they are "hardcore" because they only play first person shooters where you can run as fast as Snake crawls! :laugh:
I also think shield stun, shield health, and shield DI should be greatly increased, while shield regrowth should be decreased in speed.
This idea is perfect. It forces more "action," and it forces players to play smarter with their shields. It also rewards smarter defense, as oppose to run away (like Brawl) "defense."
 

Master Knight DH

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Considering the backwards execution of KIU's power system, I have to say I'm more appreciative of DI and being able to avoid being sent flying like Team Rocket every time I get hit without a KB immunity power active even if the opponent is using a light weapon and I'm using a heavy weapon.

Don't get me wrong, though: I STILL find that SSB in general ends up overfavoring speedsters rather than power characters. Granted, at least the likes of Meta Knight and Marth can't %#$&*$%#&* 2HK you if you're competent, let alone if you're using Bowser. But there are plenty of problems. I can tell you what they are if you're interested, but let me get to the point I want to make right now.

To avoid repeats of Ike and his inflated stats that end up being rendered average at best, two things need to be kept in mind:
*Anything that ruins the offensive momentum of power characters or just makes it easy to abuse buildup against them is a problem. If it's DESIGNED to do such, it should come at a blatant cost. Here's the thing: power characters NEED the momentum to do anything useful. Do you want to see the likes of Bowser become helpless before things that shouldn't phase him?
*Here's a triangle for you guys to see:
-Stats beats trapping by busting through.
-Trapping beats impunity by catching the opponent.
-Impunity beats stats by rendering them less useful.
*Trapping is the part of that triangle that typically can manage the most depth. Stats lead to who has the smallest E-***** (said biggest before, but bullies typically don't have big such), and impunity is just simply hiding behind abuse. Both are cowardly and need to be addressed for tactic problems. Trapping, when done well, gives VERY good, but still non-broken reason to use power characters. The power character simply has to pressure the speedster, the speedster has to find a way to break through without losing momentum.


Oh, and ending stalling methods such as planking? Easy: stamina system. Though avoid KIU's extreme punishment level, completely losing your mobility for too long is a problem.
 

Kink-Link5

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Or heavy characters can just not be slow since they already get comboed to hell and back and almost always have mediocre recoveries and a low number of options and still have long startup and endlag to everything.


Another easy solution for planking is to remove ledge gab invincibility after grabbing so many times, or even just once, without getting hit out of it. Tethers already have the limit in place in addition to the several other ****ty aspects of their recoveries.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Or heavy characters can just not be slow since they already get comboed to hell and back and almost always have mediocre recoveries and a low number of options and still have long startup and endlag to everything.
Well, Donkey Kong did show that you don't have to be slow to be heavy. Heck, in Jigglypuff's case, it's very slow on the ground, and very light.
 

Master Knight DH

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or heavy characters can just not be slow since they already get comboed to hell and back and almost always have mediocre recoveries and a low number of options and still have long startup and endlag to everything.
or we can actually care to not think everything needs to be fast. That's ridiculously shallow.

another easy solution for planking is to remove ledge gab invincibility after grabbing so many times, or even just once, without getting hit out of it. Tethers already have the limit in place in addition to the several other ****ty aspects of their recoveries.
i'd rather keep the invincibility. A stamina system would be versatile. Skyward sword managed to prove that, because you got new options and the only previous game mechanics that suffered from it were spin attacking and block pushing, but the former needs a weakness to begin with and the latter is a puzzle mechanic.

Tethers, though, could stand to suffer less, and their characters' on-stage abilities balanced better.
bold! Bold, i say!
 

Kink-Link5

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Running fast doesn't make a fast character.

If you think a character can be slow and without options and have anything close to compensating mechanics that aren't overly polarising you have a very strange concept of character balance. It's not a matter of shallowness, it's a matter of ****ing sense.
 

Ferio_Kun

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Running fast doesn't make a fast character.

If you think a character can be slow and without options and have anything close to compensating mechanics that aren't overly polarising you have a very strange concept of character balance. It's not a matter of shallowness, it's a matter of ****ing sense.
I can agree that heavy characters in Smash get the shaft big time. They have to figure out a way to spam their quickest moves (DK and DDD back air anyone?) to even hope to dent some of the faster characters. Yes they hit hard, but they shouldn't be punishable for every single move they try with the horrid start and ending lag to their moves.
 

Master Knight DH

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Running fast doesn't make a fast character.

If you think a character can be slow and without options and have anything close to compensating mechanics that aren't overly polarising you have a very strange concept of character balance. It's not a matter of shallowness, it's a matter of ****ing sense.
Here's a better idea: working defensive power. Clubs were able to function in KIU for a reason, until it was discovered everything else aside from blades and cannons has too much power on their own anyway. If low attack power were actually a valid weakness, THEN I'd be able to use a character like ROB.
 

Big-Cat

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I think we can all agree that Smash's design inherently rewards faster characters.

Anyway, if we want to figure out how to improve the big characters, why not look at how other games have handled them?

:phone:
 

Master Knight DH

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I think we can all agree that Smash's design inherently rewards faster characters.

Anyway, if we want to figure out how to improve the big characters, why not look at how other games have handled them?

:phone:
Agreed. Let's remember that it wouldn't be an easy task though. Unlike Battalion Wars, SSB doesn't provide troop management as a tool for effective trapping, and Battalion Wars itself still has impunity abuse problems.

But the key point is to make sure that characters who can't evade won't have to worry about 1HKing, effective or otherwise, without having to be blatant Glass Cannons. By toning up the ability to tank properly, not only does defensive power become more important, but so does offense power.
 

Big-Cat

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If we look at other fighters, the bigger fighters tend to have strong mixup games both up close and on the opponent's wake up. They also have some decent pokes and like every other character, some way around projectiles. In all honesty, the heavy fighters need to be well rounded more than anything else.

I still think that going for super armor on a lot of Bowser's moves in Project M, while unique, isn't something that should be applied to all heavy weights.
 

Master Knight DH

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Here's something to remember: SSB isn't a traditional fighter, and it is in fact preferred to play on a stage like Battlefield over Final Destination.

However, I'm not quite sure what to say, so as a review, let's see what defensive power is useful for in other games:
*Charge attacking, as a result of throwing off the damage you take
*Counterattacking, to build on attrition warfare
*Dealing with meta-counters, which are used to make sure you get hurt instead
*Surviving impunity abuse, because you can't tell me that won't eventually happen (especially useful if you're dealing with a range pest)
*Intentionally taking hits to trigger a useful ability (or in a game like Battalion Wars to sponge an attack intended for other units which is just as useful XD )

But of course, being able to tank is only one half of the requirement of effective non-Glass Cannon power character usage, and it's simply the survival half. The other half is being able to trap, because you need to be able to do that to manage a remotely effective offense. But how. Hmm.
 

Kink-Link5

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That all sounds ridiculously skewed for matchups. If you have the tools to get around their superarmor or stupidly slow but powerful attacks, you 100:0 them, otherwise, you get wrecked.


Other games made high health characters good by making them faster and giving them tools like they and every other character deserves, usually with a higher range than their puny adversaries. The downside to their high damage output is that they are huge and get looped for combos longer, and they don't have very good close range options. It's a fine trade off. Otherwise you have a character that is slow, lacks options to cover their slowness, gets punished substantially harder than the other characters in the game, and relies entirely on the opponent being bad in order to win, all just to be a counterpoint to "Lives 26% longer and in the off chance their slow bad moves hit, kills in fewer hits sort of." Making a character of extremes is just bad design. When a character revolves around one super good aspect in contrast to their other bad ones, we get Melee Jigglypuff and Brawl Olimar/Dedede.

Let's fix Bowser

Initial dash speed increased
Initial dash length increased
Nair hits frame 4 from 8
Fair hits frame 5 from 8
Dair is advantageous on block and pops up into grab range on hit
Down throw angle 40 from 56 to set up a tech chase, cooldown decreased


Oh hey, now Bowser still has his iconic slow and beastly moves like F-smash and Uair, except now he has actual tools, though still inferior to most characters, he can use in combat, and they're ones that make sense to be fast/setup the way they do.


Obvuffet there is more to making a balanced character than a few buffs, but these are the kinds of moves that help the character do the same basic things other, better characters can, without losing their iconic aspects and still keeping them unique.

Tools, options, usable moves that parallel ones that already work.
 

DrinkingFood

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Let's fix Bowser

Initial dash speed increased
Initial dash length increased
Nair hits frame 4 from 8
Fair hits frame 5 from 8
Dair is advantageous on block and pops up into grab range on hit
Down throw angle 40 from 56 to set up a tech chase, cooldown decreased
Jump cancel on his usmash would be a great addition as well. I don't consider it ridiculous as it makes sense- the startup animation looks almost exactly like a jumpsquat (except he's looking upward), and he launches himself into the air just like a jump. As with typical janky smash physics, he's basically trading height for a powerful hitbox. So why not let him jump once he's in the air as with a regular aerial state? Reduce the base knockback so it starts combos, increase knockback growth so it still kills well, and give side hitboxes more upward knockback. Keep the earthquake hitbox he got in P:M so he has benefits either from landing or jumping out of it, and voila- suddenly you've got something that can tech chase to pop somebody into the air, is safe on sheild if they get up early enough to sheild on reaction, and can be aborted to give him at least one move where he's not over-committing simply by moving. I feel like that's the problem with slow heavy characters in smash- mobility is just as important as anything else, and characters that lack good mobility have a hard time getting in, and because of large characters' sizes, they also have a hard time getting out of the way. Giving them something that allows them to put out a hitbox and suddenly move (like the above) gives more of a chance.
 

Master Knight DH

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That all sounds ridiculously skewed for matchups. If you have the tools to get around their superarmor or stupidly slow but powerful attacks, you 100:0 them, otherwise, you get wrecked.
What? Did you even read my bloody post?

Other games made high health characters good by making them faster
*playing Road to Xylvania, a level in Battalion Wars that is pwned by shallow Battlestation usage, as you say that* *finishes playing the level with a Perfect S-Rank* I'm sorry, what was it you were saying?

and giving them tools like they and every other character deserves, usually with a higher range than their puny adversaries.
Now yes, they should have working tools, but higher reach should be treated with caution. It's usually there to accomodate their size.

The downside to their high damage output is that they are huge and get looped for combos longer,
So Mighty Glaciers should be Glass Cannons. One question: why?

and they don't have very good close range options.
They SHOULD have good close range options, especially if their long range options suck.

It's a fine trade off.
Let me think. No it isn't.

Otherwise you have a character that is slow,
Which is fine.

lacks options to cover their slowness,
This I will grant.

gets punished substantially harder than the other characters in the game,
Then tone up power usability.

and relies entirely on the opponent being bad in order to win,
Then fix power.

all just to be a counterpoint to "Lives 26% longer and in the off chance their slow bad moves hit, kills in fewer hits sort of."
That's TWO strengths you point to. What needs to be done is have them suck less in SSB.

Making a character of extremes is just bad design. When a character revolves around one super good aspect in contrast to their other bad ones, we get Melee Jigglypuff and Brawl Olimar/Dedede.
I will agree there. That's why power needs to suck less.

Let's fix Bowser

*snip*
AGAIN, Bowser's speed is fine as is and definitely should not be increased unnecessarily. Power as a whole is what needs to be fixed.

Obvuffet there is more to making a balanced character than a few buffs, but these are the kinds of moves that help the character do the same basic things other, better characters can, without losing their iconic aspects and still keeping them unique.
Here's an idea for characters being more unique: better power gap differences.

Tools, options, usable moves that parallel ones that already work.
You said it yourself: keep the characters unique.
Bold! Bold, I sa-*smack*OW!

Okay, fine. So apparently Mighty Glaciers should have decent speed. I'm sorry, but as the Kid Icarus Uprising board on GameFAQs would point out after twisting my points to say I would believe that clubs need to have mobility rather than the availability of more club-friendly trap powers (surprisingly, my Knight Charge power idea is just club-friendly by providing mobility, but it ends up being an expert's tool the way it works), why give speed to Mighty Glaciers? They're slow because otherwise, their power advantage would be a blatant one, which can easily end up rendering a character like Mario obsolete. That's how it is at least on paper.

Let's see:
*The Anti-Air Vehicle in Battalion Wars is incredibly useful and would be so even if it was the second slowest unit there, simply because of strong reason to have initiative, only truly hindered by being too important to want to have it near anti-armor surface forces without sufficient backup.
*The Battlestation, also in BW, does have several weapons on it, but more importantly, it solos against any surface AI unit without fail, especially when very blatant anti-armor abuse is required to send it to the scrap heap.
*The Hammer in Kirby Super Star and Kirby's (Epic) Return to Dream Land. There's a reason why it's considered a Game Breaker despite having short reach. Stone is likewise free invincibility whenever you want it.
*Purple Pikmin get their brokenness moniker in Pikmin 2 for a reason, when other Pikmin types there DON'T have weaknesses. Though chalk brokenness up to stun abuse and HEFTY multipliers. And try a no mature Pikmin run at some point. Those Fire Bulbears that Purple Pikmin pwn, for example? That's not happening anymore. You have to use Reds now. And I actually use Purples for Bulbears in general because of how aggravating they get to begin with due to high durability.

There's probably more examples. But the point is that speed isn't everything.
 
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