Mechanic Changes for SSB4

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, you don't want to L-cancel when you edge cancel a move (assuming this isn't brawl) elsewise you'll **** up and accidentally shield as you're letting go of the shoulder button. And edge canceling CAN happen accidentally, so it requires more knowledge on the player's part about exactly when they would edge-cancel..

To be fair, the same can apply to many, many different situations. As far as I'm concerned, accidentally edge-canceling and airdodging to your death isn't much different from shielding a move near the edge and not realizing the move was powerful enough to push you off the edge, then trying to retaliate with an attack and using a N-Air to your death.

To me, it's the same required knowledge as "don't do an attack while offstage if it will prevent you from being able to recover." The situations are just as risky (you lose a stock for it), and you often have to ask yourself if it's a good or bad idea in the heat of the moment (the pressure builds; there are good reasons to do either option at the right time).

Also, that's only one very specific place where trying to L-Cancel might not be such a good idea (which can also be reasonably negated completely just by knowing the distance exactly), whereas other comparable option selects have a much more balanced risk/reward set overall.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I hate the term wavebouncing. It's just B-reversing. It's like the brawl community wanted "wave" in some word and they thought they had to put it somewhere, so they just put it there.

Wavebounce is a turnaround b-reverse

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wavebounce is a Reverse Neutral B into a B-reversal; A Reverse B Reversal, or RBR, so to say.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Venus of the Desert Bloom had a cool idea.
Fully charged smash attacks having an extra benefit.
Like a fully charged down smash would send a shockwave.
A Fully Charged Side Smash would have increased range.
Somethin like that.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Venus of the Desert Bloom had a cool idea.
Fully charged smash attacks having an extra benefit.
Like a fully charged down smash would send a shockwave.
A Fully Charged Side Smash would have increased range.
Somethin like that.

There was a Zero PSA a while ago that did something like that. All his smashes were based on Link's, but when they were fully charged he did some of his special moves(like the Raijingeki for F-smash). It's be cool to see stuff like that added.

 

[DrinkingFood]

^I could get behind that, if it weren't too gimmicky.

@Kink and @MEOW1337KITTEH
They could have just called it a ****ing RBR instead of trying and failing to appeal to Melee players by putting the word wave in it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I agree that RBR sounds and looks nicer in writing. Acronyms work well for universal and cornerstone techniques.

 

[κomıc]

I just want a game that's a balance between Melee and Brawl.

Melee is a broken mess, unresponsive even after playing and getting used to Brawl's physics. Sakurai even came out and said Melee was incomplete (that's due to lots of time constraints and a hellish development cycle). I don't get how people can say Melee was more balanced when really, it wasn't. There are more characters in Brawl that fit into the competitive scene compared to Melee's 6.

I really saw no use in Wavedashing other than for showing off. And honestly, the only reason people used such characters in Melee (and even Brawl) was because of tier ranking- not because they're their legit favorite character. There's never going to be a perfect balanced game. But comparatively, Brawl was more balanced than Brawl- regardless of the unnecessary tripping and what some believe "floatiness". I laugh at the thought tripping was there to prevent wavedashing. But the only tripping I want to see is when another character d-tilts with that small chance of doing so (Kirby, Ness and Zelda good examples). The randomness has to go.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Melee is a broken mess, unresponsive even after playing and getting used to Brawl's physics. Sakurai even came out and said Melee was incomplete (that's due to lots of time constraints and a hellish development cycle).

Because Sakurai said it, so it must be true. I know the game's development was rushed, but the final product feels surprisingly polished, especially compared to 64.

On an unre;ated note, I figure I should just post this and get it over with.
[COLLAPSE="Mechanics I would like to see implemented"]-Super Meter and A+B "Super Specials" (ala P:M Lucario) for the whole roster.
-Airdashing. Not sure how to implement it, but I like the idea.
-Either the return of L-Canceling or the reduction of landing lag.
-Return of limited air dodges.
-Taunts that have some sort of tangible benefit(ala SF3).[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Vkrm]

Melee isn't a broken mess. Especially when compared to the fraudulence that was smash bros brawl.

 

[StriCNYN3]

Don't do it guys, or this thread is going to turn into another horrible Melee vs Brawl debate again. KomicTurtle's post screams of 5 week old troll bait.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Increase chance of tripping to 90%, even when characters are standing still. Restrict movement to wavedashing, any failed attempts at wavedashing will result in a trip. Make all stages retextured Final Destination.

 

[El Duderino]

[insert Smash tittle here] is a broken mess.

There, lets move on.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Fully Charged smash attacks add extra benefits.
Like a fully charged side smash by Ike releases a pillar of fire from the earth after his blade hits the ground.
Or a less extreme suggestion like a fully charged smash by Link increases the range of his attack by emitting "skyward energy" from his sword. Just a little bit though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Increase chance of tripping to 90%, even when characters are standing still. Restrict movement to wavedashing, any failed attempts at wavedashing will result in a trip. Make all stages retextured Final Destination.

Also, they're going to add sneezing. Small chance of happening during any animation, puts you in specialfall in the air/on an edge and shield broken state on the ground

 

[Kink-Link5]

Off-topic troll nonsense.

Long post short, reported.

 

[Lechteron]

Fully Charged smash attacks add extra benefits.
Like a fully charged side smash by Ike releases a pillar of fire from the earth after his blade hits the ground.
Or a less extreme suggestion like a fully charged smash by Link increases the range of his attack by emitting "skyward energy" from his sword. Just a little bit though.

I like that idea. Maybe not quite to the extreme that you mentioned with Ike. Certainly would allow for new strategies and some pretty cool animations.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think such a thing might have to be implemented differently than through charged Smash attacks as that begs the question of how often could you pull it off without being left wide open.

 

[Lechteron]

I think such a thing might have to be implemented differently than through charged Smash attacks as that begs the question of how often could you pull it off without being left wide open.

Well that'd be what makes it a good mechanic and not broken. It'd be some what high risk with a commensurate reward. Of course you could always just end it early for a normal smash attack.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Again, it's the kind of thing I feel should be restricted to specific aspects of specific moves, normalising mechanics like that to the whole cast removes the emphasis that could make some moves really iconic. I could see like, Mario's fireball getting bigger with a full charge, but nothing as dramatic as entirely different functions for moves.

 

[Reika Kitami]

Sneezing for SSB4 lmao

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

I just want a game that's a balance between Melee and Brawl.

Melee is a broken mess, unresponsive even after playing and getting used to Brawl's physics. Sakurai even came out and said Melee was incomplete (that's due to lots of time constraints and a hellish development cycle). I don't get how people can say Melee was more balanced when really, it wasn't. There are more characters in Brawl that fit into the competitive scene compared to Melee's 6.

I really saw no use in Wavedashing other than for showing off. And honestly, the only reason people used such characters in Melee (and even Brawl) was because of tier ranking- not because they're their legit favorite character. There's never going to be a perfect balanced game. But comparatively, Brawl was more balanced than Brawl- regardless of the unnecessary tripping and what some believe "floatiness". I laugh at the thought tripping was there to prevent wavedashing. But the only tripping I want to see is when another character d-tilts with that small chance of doing so (Kirby, Ness and Zelda good examples). The randomness has to go.

Sakurai and his team knew about wavedashing during development, they just never thought it could have been used as an advantage during gameplay. So wavedashing is not a glitch, same goes for L cancelling. Sakurai was aware of that technique since SSB 64 and even revealed about it on the old Smash Bros site.

Because Sakurai said it, so it must be true. I know the game's development was rushed, but the final product feels surprisingly polished, especially compared to 64.

Melee might have been rushed, but it felt more of a complete game than Brawl, which is funny too because it was delayed so many times. Tell me that the online mode is not rushed, and they totally dropped the ball on SSE. Not to mention Brawl has several character data that were dropped from the final product. Melee was a huge leap from SSB 64, but Brawl... not so much.

 

[Pyra]

Smash 4 should have a new mechanic that muzzles people when they mention how crap the game is because it isn't tailored to people's competitive or casual specifications.

All jokes aside, Sneezing for sm4sh, gogogo.

 

[Big-Cat]

As an actual status effect, that could be funny. Giving a character a cold could include slowed running speed and weaker attacks.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Dr. Mario's Revenge™

 

[Deleted member]

There's a few things I want to see:

1. No more tripping. Should be obvious.
2. Faster speed than in Brawl. Slower than Melee, but faster enough to where there's a noticeable difference in Brawl. I don't want to see Falco slow anymore.
3. More involvement with chains. It doesn't have to be anything complicated, just something like Marth's chains would do.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I agree with number three. But why it should be slower than melee in beyond me. Melee's only too fast if you don't have reasonable reflexes. I'd actually rather it were faster than melee if at all possible. Scaling everybody up so that the moderately technical and generally average speed characters are about as fast as melee Falco, and the already fast and technical characters even more so would be ideal or near ideal to me. The goal being that there's always a lot more to discover and huge amounts of improvement with every session of playing, even years into the game's life, and for every character to require dedication and more than just natural abilities or matchup knowledge to succeed with at a high level (while those things are nice, they shouldn't be the only things- it's hard to care about a game that requires little of the way of dedication and practice).

 

[El Duderino]

Melee only gets really fast when you start L-canceling, shffl'ing, and wavelanding. The basic gamplay speed though is entirely manageable.

Complaining about it is similar to calling say Super Mario 3 or World too fast, suggesting Mario should platform at speeds closer to Yoshi's Island. Honestly Melee doesn't require you to have any faster reflexes than most of the mainline 2D Mario tittles.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think the understanding here is that we're not talking about a casual level, El Duderino. No need to go into technicalities or semantics.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I agree with number three. But why it should be slower than melee in beyond me. Melee's only too fast if you don't have reasonable reflexes. I'd actually rather it were faster than melee if at all possible. Scaling everybody up so that the moderately technical and generally average speed characters are about as fast as melee Falco, and the already fast and technical characters even more so would be ideal or near ideal to me. The goal being that there's always a lot more to discover and huge amounts of improvement with every session of playing, even years into the game's life, and for every character to require dedication and more than just natural abilities or matchup knowledge to succeed with at a high level (while those things are nice, they shouldn't be the only things- it's hard to care about a game that requires little of the way of dedication and practice).

I wouldn't mind faster then brawl but I think faster then Melee would be a mistake. When making a game you have to take the casuals at least into consideration or else you won't sell as many copies. Plain and simple.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Melee fall and jump speeds are already quite slow compared to most fighters, but that is due to the Smash series also being a platformer, as it were, where a controlled descent is crucial.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ferio Kun, catering to casuals is a mistake. They can play how they want, as slow or as fast as they like. It doesn't affect them because they are easier to please. Brawl in general didn't get an uproar from the casual community like it did from the competitive community. The game should cater to the competitve players, because casual players are fans of the concept of the game and the characters in it, not of the specific mechanics. Regardless, the speed of the game wouldn't alienate casuals. Why do you think so many of them like lightning mode?

 

[Big-Cat]

It's not that simple, DF. Ideally, the game should cater to everyone with a design philosophy of easy to learn, hard to master. The Smash series, for the most part, does a decent job at this. You can't cater just to competitive players as they're actually pretty picky if they're not previously interested in the series. Also, keeping it casual friendly - easy to learn, hard to master, will keep new blood coming in.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I was referring to competitive smash players, not competitive gamers in general or even competitive fighting game players in general. Yeah we're hard to please, but it's already been proven that our wishes are very compatible with the casual crowd- nothing we want really affects them. And of course, how easy the game is to learn is no matter to serious competitve players- I think most of us just want a challenge at an upper level. I guess what I'm getting at is that you're right, but catering to competitive players only addresses the skill ceiling rather than the skill floor. Now of course anything not addressed by "catering to competitve players" (ie skill ceiling, play speed, balance) should be addressed according to the desires of the less serious players, but by their nature of taking the game not quite as seriously, their concerns should be the last to be acted upon. This doesn't imply that they shouldn't like the game though, only that they will probably like it anyways and thus shouldn't be the standard. A good game's standard should be set by the desires of its pickiest players, so that it will probably be pleasing to everyone.

 

[κomıc]

Tripping should stay in ONLY if it's a d'tilt move like Kirby, Ness, Zelda, etc. The randomness, no... Even thought I find it somewhat amusing.. I also hope they make sure there's no way to wavedash- that wasn't supposed to be in the "incomplete" Melee anyways and people act as if it's a necessity. Keep the mechanics balanced between Melee and Brawl like some Mod Projects have been doing and I'll be very pleased.

 

[El Duderino]

I think the understanding here is that we're not talking about a casual level, El Duderino. No need to go into technicalities or semantics.

Technicalities or semantics? All I suggested was Melee's pacing should perfectly manageable for the gamers Smash appeals to. After all, having reasonable reflexes might as well be part of the Nintendo fanbase DNA. Think you were just reading into what I said.

 

[trash?]

Honestly, I don't... really think a super-ish meter would be a good idea, seeing how the major thing that makes smash what it is is that it sort of tosses away every concept that a "traditional" fighting game gives, in favor of trying something new and different.

 

[Big-Cat]

Then what's to say they can't do something different with the meter?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fighting games didn't have supers/meters until the fifth version of Street Fighter II, so I'm not sure what you mean by they're a concept exclusive or indicative of "traditional" fighters (Soul Calibur is far from a traditional fighter as an example of the former).

Honestly what constitutes "traditional fighter"? Capcom 6-button fighters? Any and only Capcom fighter? Games without chainarts? Is Melty Blood a non-traditional fighter because it has Reverse Beats? Or is any traditional fighter referring to any 2-D, non-smash, fighter? Or is it just any non-smash fighter at all?

The term is thrown around so vaguely and with such different context I can't even tell anymore. There are Capcom fanboys that regard anything that isn't Marvel or the current version of Street Fighter 4 as "***gy anime fighters," just as there are ignorant Smash players who throw out "traditional fighter" as an insult, or, at the very least, a pejorative term for anything requiring a 236 input.

What was I talking about?

Oh right meters.

 

[trash?]

Generally, I'm thinking of how most modern fighters use a meter (ie. having sort of combos that "build" that meter, in order to do what is usually an upgraded version of a meterless move). In that sense, it'd be like, say, an HP bar: nobody's ever going to dislike it (because why would they, it very clearly works well), but smash likes to try odd things.

Why not, say, use it to build a final smash? Instead of just building meter quickly and using it, you would have to build it slowly throughout the entire match, and by the time you get it, the match would nearly be over, making it something you would use for a final move.