Mechanic Changes for SSB4

[rawrimamonster]

To nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand.

Quality =\= Quantity

Brawl is the Quantity, Melee is the Quality. Anyone whose played both for a extended period of time and wasn't a ragequitter who couldn't adapt or get better can tell you this. Sadly though, even among casuals brawl is recognized as a mistake, and the game is Sakurai's apology to the casual crowd...go figure right? Anyone who knows smash history and who can follow interviews knows that with Melee it was an attempt to nerf smash, because 64 (by smash standards, calm down malva) was broken. But Sakurai failed, and ended up creating a deeper and more rich experience. So in the end, brawl was created with everything nerfed with a "everyone can win" attitude, which for some reason translated to "make the game very unbalanced".

/facts and subject

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Melee wasn't "inaccessible" to the casual crowd. I'm a casual player, and I don't(and never have) found Melee significantly "harder" than Brawl. I actually like Melee better than Brawl.

Before Brawl, nobody had any major complaints about Melee being "inaccessible" to beginners. Some people had complaints that a few were taking the game a bit too seriously, but there was no major outcry among the casual fans about advanced techniques ruining the game.

When Brawl removed a lot of ATs, it didn't make the game more accessible. It just made the game less rewarding to master. A lot of the other engine changes also ended up pissing off many casual fans in addition to the hardcore fanbase.

Sorry for rambling a bit.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Melee had crouch canceling during the full running animation, and it came to be that walking was only used during close quarters to seldomly offer more precise movement. A solution to this would be to let the run animation flow into the walk animation when the stick is let up a little. Fully releasing the stick would still cause a dashstop, but easing the stick in would break into a walk, allowing both movement options to coexist and benefit each other- Running lets itself step aside to let walking apply pressure at close quarters, and walking lets running take over easily when needed. Melee dash dancing could stay or go, but if the idea is to let both shine in certain areas, it would probably be better to have closer to Brawl dashdances.

Other things like increasing hitstun and the shield stun were in Melee even if you didn't say it as so.

So not wanting a technique that was a cornerstone of Melee's gameplay while wanting a dash mechanic reflective of Brawl's, is how did you say, "asking for Melee"?

It sounds like you just did a cntrl+f for "Melee" and didn't even read the sentences, because if you did, you'd see that I was stating a problem present in Melee. I even say "A solution to...." in the second sentence. You kind of come off as a complete a****** building up such a ridiculous scarecrow.

'Just how you come off.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's SmashChu for you. It's only gonna get worse.

 

[SmashChu]

How many times do we have tI go over this?

Even though Brawl sold 4 million more than Melee, this is likely a partial result of so many Wiis bought. 1 out of every 3 GC owners had Melee. 1 out of at least 9 Wii owners have Brawl.

The is wrong because games sell hardware, not the other way around. This is the basics of how the console business works. It would make more sense to say Brawl explains Wii sales (although, not entirely).

So not wanting a technique that was a cornerstone of Melee's gameplay while wanting a dash mechanic reflective of Brawl's, is how did you say, "asking for Melee"?

It sounds like you just did a cntrl+f for "Melee" and didn't even read the sentences, because if you did, you'd see that I was stating a problem present in Melee. I even say "A solution to...." in the second sentence. You kind of come off as a complete a****** building up such a ridiculous scarecrow.

'Just how you come off.

You said that Melee's dash dancing could be brought back as well. You mentioned other items as well.

There is no need to argue this any further. Waste of both of our times.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

One thing that should be changed most certainly is the rco lag. By grabbing ledges with a special move, you will retain that landing lag the next time you land on the ground.

Although, I am not sure if I like this feature or not. Its certainly annoying when getting back on the stage, but its great for the person trying to push you off.

 

[Ussi]

Smaller auto snap ledge (like small to the point it requires precise spacing)

Both types of air dodges, (have double tap shield or something like that be the moving air dodge)

No hitstun canceling

Keep DI, its perfect in brawl

Reduce how effective SDI is

Test basic jab combo to actually connect -.-

Keep momentum from running when jumping

 

[Kink-Link5]

You said that Melee's dash dancing could be brought back as well. You mentioned other items as well.

I never once said or came close to saying the game should be Melee, which is entirely the basis of your false claim.

There is no need to argue this any further. Waste of both of our times.

You're the one who started this argument, bub. You are very incorrect and using very bad fallacies in your argument, especially since it pertains to claims about my own statements.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Of course Brawl sold more. 8 year gap between releases, announcement of games release in 2005 with a trailer shown in 2006, the first third party characters to ever exist in smash, The Dojo website to build anticipation and advertise, several launch events around the united states including a nation wide tournament, plus a commercial. Melee only had the little buzz it had and a single commercial out here.

If you ask me Melee did a great job with its key selling point being that it was the successor to a game on a previous platform.

 

[El Duderino]

Had Brawl went the path of Melee, you would have seen sales go down. It was a slippery slope and Sakurai mentions this. Again, Brawl found the balance.

Melee wasn't "inaccessible" to the casual crowd. I'm a casual player, and I don't(and never have) found Melee significantly "harder" than Brawl. I actually like Melee better than Brawl.

I actually find in many ways Melee more accessible than Brawl.

Someone picks up Melee for the first time, there is little to comprehend outside of the core mechanics. With Brawl you get questions like, "What is making me trip?", "why did my up special grab the ledge when I wanted to attack?", "What's up with that awkward jump that happened, why did it kill me?", "WTF?!? I attacked when I was on the ledge, not when I was falling! Lame death. (read buffer downsides)". It all adds to the learning curve and you pick up on it the hard way.

Melee had a couple quirks like having no way to grab the ledge backwards, or the accidental air dodge off the ledge. There's also the faster pace, but in terms of accessibility, it counters it with responsiveness. Rarely do you die in Melee and feel like it isn't somehow your fault, no matter your level of play. Can't say the same for Brawl.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I want aerial tripping.

 

[Tollhouse]

remove tripping, add hit stun, and make the combat fast paced. doesn't have to melee speed.

 

[MR. K]

you know even thoguh i always read that brawl and melee have the same hitstun, and that brawl's was simply able to be canceled...


I have to ask.....wouldn't it just mean brawl has...less hitstun?

I mean number and data wise no, but the fact that you can cancel it after so many frames, kinda defeats the purpose of being well "stunned" from a hit, which in turn would mean.....that in all honesty you have less hitstun in brawl as you can regain control of your character from the hitstun faster.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

if you remove any more mechanics you might as well just play rock paper scissors best of 9999

 

[Kink-Link5]

if you remove any more mechanics you might as well just play rock paper scissors best of 9999

Please read threads before posting in them.


The hitstun aspects are still relevant to jumping out of histun and using special moves out of histun, which are the only aerial actions that can not be done to cancel histun. You'll find that moves with nearly identical knockbacks in Melee and Brawl also have nearly identical jump-out times. Simply adding in more hitstun wouldn't prevent the hitstun from being cancelable.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'd like to see some minor block damage in the next game - maybe 25%?

 

[FlowinWater]

Brawl is not a good game:/. The only reason it sold so much was because it was riding the hype after Melee and Wii sold much much more then the Cube.

Anyways they should use Melee as a the foundation and build on it. Character in melee just felt right, smooth and responsive. What made Melee so great was a scrub could play it, and people that wanted to take it to another level were rewarded. Brawl doesn't have that which affects its replay value. All this crap about making the game simple is what killed Brawl and was two steps back in the series.

I would like to see some aerial dashing like in Guilty gear, it'll give character more recovery options, and as well as make edgeguarding more tricky. L canceling should make a return, if they bring back wavedashing ill be an even happier camper . Maybe add some special Angled attacks?

HOLLA

 

[BSP]

Smaller auto snap ledge (like small to the point it requires precise spacing)

Both types of air dodges, (have double tap shield or something like that be the moving air dodge)

No hitstun canceling

Keep DI, its perfect in brawl

Reduce how effective SDI is

Test basic jab combo to actually connect -.-

Keep momentum from running when jumping

I agree with all of these, especially the bolded.

I'd add the removal of RCO lag. That mechanic is dumb, especially when it only affects some characters and not others.

I'd also add a weaker Stale Moves Mechanic. It's just too crippling in Brawl imo. It shouldn't go entirely, but you shouldn't be punished so hard for using the move once recently.

More shield stun too. The shield in Brawl is basically the go to option for nearly anything.

All Dash options from Melee should come back. Taking away options is just dumb >_>

You should be able to tech a Footstool if you hit the stage.

The game needs non-tumble DI. This is what causes some of the CGs and crap in brawl.

Oh, and no random tripping of course.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd rather see damage scaling (but not knockback) than the return of stale moves.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

What do I want removed? Tripping & hitstun cancelling really irk me and all of my friends (none of us have ever competed in any Smash tournament of any kind; we're all pretty casual). I also want to see Brawl's floatiness, infinite airdodging, and ledge abuse go. Keep footstool jumps, reverse ledge grabs (although they should be more difficult), pivot grabs, and slide smashes (and thus, DACUS as well).

For some new mechanics, I'd like some kind of grab breaker\reversal to prevent lengthy chaingrabs, a button dedicated to short hops, a refinement of the grab button (I hate it when I press grab and shield instead), air grabs (only for certain characters; for instance Link could use his hookshot to air grab enemies as an alternate recovery), and auto L-cancelling (basically reduced landing lag).

I think those would please both casual and competitive players. There's no need to exclusively cater to one side when it's easy to satisfy both.

 

[cannedbread]

i would like to see more movement momentum stuff. like djcs. in melee, certain characters (ness, mewtwo, yoshi, peach) could cancel double jump momentum with attacks. ness and yoshi could get aerials lower and faster than a shffl. mewtwo's djc helps him land one of his killing moves, the fair, thanks to the momentum boost of his djc. i don't really think peach has any notable benefits from her djc,in fact i think most peach mains hate that laggy double jump.

brawl, on the other hand, removed double jump cancels, but the unique mechanics of ness and yoshi's second jumps allowed them to ride the momentum of their jumps while performing an aerial. fairly obscure and overshadowed by the melee/64 djc, but notable nonetheless.

i'd like to see at's similar to djcs. what if certain characters had a unique running animation that allowed them to get a boost of momentum when cancelled into attacks, sort of like a dacus? or a skid animation that let them pivot slide into attacks, like squirtle in brawl? first jumps that can be cancelled into attacks, even. that would be cool.

 

[Pimpfish]

i want ssbm:2 because melee is way better in every way than anything brawl added or took away. gg.

 

[SoulPech]

I would prefer to take out the random tripping, as well as the perfect shielding, and nerf the spot dodge. Tripping is just annoying as ****, perfect shielding is much easier in this game. Not to mention, if you perfect shield, there's no risk involved (why it's called 'perfect' derp). As for spot dodging, it is SOOOOO good on some characters that it's ********. If these mechanics are fixed to what i've mentioned, I'll be happy.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

a button dedicated to short hops

This would make me so happy. I can't short hop consistently on about half of the characters in the game. But I think a lot of other people would have problems with that, and it's not a must-have feature.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

i want ssbm:2 because melee is way better in every way than anything brawl added or took away. gg.

I support this 100%. Sorry to be bias but as both a Melee and Brawl player I have to say Brawl is fairly terrible and easy as hell to play. Competitive Brawl is OK because you have a variety of smart players, but after seeing a player trip 3 times during KO opportunities in one of the biggest smash tournaments is a complete turn off.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Tripping is pointless. It should be removed.

 

[Carlo_H.Luz]

I want the shield to work 1:1 I mean exactly at the time I push the button. The shield responding slow is the only thing that made me go nuts in brawl

 

[Pseudomaniac]

This would make me so happy. I can't short hop consistently on about half of the characters in the game. But I think a lot of other people would have problems with that, and it's not a must-have feature.

I can typically short hop well but its incredibly irritating when I mess it up in the middle of a combo. And I really don't see why people would have issues with it (other than the "auto L cancelling is for n00bs" crowd).

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I can typically short hop well but its incredibly irritating when I mess it up in the middle of a combo. And I really don't see why people would have issues with it (other than the "auto L cancelling is for n00bs" crowd).

I think a better solution for short hops is to make the window for short hopping less strict.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I think a better solution for short hops is to make the window for short hopping less strict.

The problem I could see with that is it could make the problem reversed; people would accidentally short hop instead of doing a regular jump.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I always accidentally SH in Brawl since jump squat is like 10 frames :/

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Pressure-sensitive shields should really come back. At least that way, you can play mind games with your defenses.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Pressure-sensitive shields should really come back. At least that way, you can play mind games with your defenses.

Hopefully Nintendo adds analog triggers to both Wii U controllers and brings this feature back.

 

[D-idara]

Take off tripping and recycle as less as possible from Melee, since Project M was people trying to turn a fun and addicting game into a techfest.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Take off tripping and recycle as less as possible from Melee, since Project M was people trying to turn a fun and addicting game into a techfest.

Project M took a slow, frustrating game with very little technical depth and turned it back into the fast paced, easy to learn but hard to master game, which was much closer to the original spirit of the franchise. IMHO.

Smash 4 shouldn't be Melee 2 or Brawl 2. Make airdodges limited again, wavedashing could return, though it doesn't have to, and bring back L-canceling or automatically reduce landing lag from aerial attacks. It needs to have a unique identity of its own.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Take off tripping and recycle as less as possible from Melee, since Project M was people trying to turn a fun and addicting game into a techfest.

ITT: Warped and biased viewpoints

 

[DrinkingFood]

I really wish people would stop using the term "wavedashing" in reference to what should return from melee, and instead refer to the dynamic air dodge. What these people and many other uninformed brawl fans fail to realize is that wavedashing in simply a result, a byproduct, of a the real mechanic- the directional air dodge. What turns off a lot of us melee fans (or simply fans of the melee mechanics) about brawl is the huge lack of control you have over your character. You're limited. You can't change momentum in air while dodging, you can't stop a dash startup late into the animation, you are forced to grab the ledge any time you are near it unless you are attacking or dodging, you can't control how sturdy your shield is and how far back hits to it make you slide, you can't even control your opponent during a combo regardless of how much skill you have in stringing together combos, you can't even control if your character will **** up and trip over his own two feet. Like it's been said a million times, we don't want an anti-casual game. We want a game that's easy to learn and hard to master. I think we want a challenge, something that'll last years and still continue to surprise us. The only reason we cite melee is because melee did it best. Does this mean it can't be done better? No, but we don't know how it can be. Brawl most certainly did not do it better. We'd rather be safe and cry out to sakurai to return melee mechanics which are tried and true rather than risk he and namco bandai being experimental and ruining yet another installation in the series.

 

[Shadic]

Keep DI, its perfect in brawl

Do you have any idea how flawed DI is in Brawl? Like, even a raw technical level.

In Brawl, you can't DI moves that don't send you into tumble. This is the cause of most of Brawl's stupid combos.

You couldn't DI attacks that sent between + or - 18 degrees of horizontal.

You could DI diagonal KB 6 degrees more than other hits (24 v 18) due to how Brawl read stick input.

 

[SmashChu]

Project M took a slow, frustrating game with very little technical depth and turned it back into the fast paced, easy to learn but hard to master game, which was much closer to the original spirit of the franchise. IMHO.

Smash 4 shouldn't be Melee 2 or Brawl 2. Make airdodges limited again, wavedashing could return, though it doesn't have to, and bring back L-canceling or automatically reduce landing lag from aerial attacks. It needs to have a unique identity of its own.

No. It took Brawl and turned it into Melee. Honestly I have more respect for Balance Brawl because it kept Brawl and tried to tailor it to the community. Project M is an embarrassment. It just shows competitive Smash players just can't let Melee go. I don't see Street Fighter players going on and on in how 4 needs to be 3rd Strike.

Do you have any idea how flawed DI is in Brawl? Like, even a raw technical level.

In Brawl, you can't DI moves that don't send you into tumble. This is the cause of most of Brawl's stupid combos.

You couldn't DI attacks that sent between + or - 18 degrees of horizontal.

You could DI diagonal KB 6 degrees more than other hits (24 v 18) due to how Brawl read stick input.

How should it be/how was it in the other games? (Not trying to be sarcastic or anything. Just curious).

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wavedashing stuff.

The airdodge mechanic I brought up would exist to allow wavelanding while preventing wavedashing and hopefully to provide a different dynamic to the game not present in the series past.

No. It took Brawl and turned it into Melee. Honestly I have more respect for Balance Brawl because it kept Brawl and tried to tailor it to the community. Project M is an embarrassment. It just shows competitive Smash players just can't let Melee go. I don't see Street Fighter players going on and on in how 4 needs to be 3rd Strike.


How should it be/how was it in the other games? (Not trying to be sarcastic or anything. Just curious).

Because Project M doesn't appeal to any aspect of the community and Balanced Brawl is such a popular and well spread project.

There is currently a project to make SSIV not ****ty, with parries and 3S pace as big goals in the project.