MC's Wario guide. + matchups

[stnapknah]

I found that the Peach write-up didn't explain much on how to approach a Peach. I was using fairs and they kinda helped although Peach's moves seem to just outprioritize all of mine. Is there any tips one can give on how to approach?

bait and punish. Get above her when you can, but don't get predictable.

I... Don't understand how Wario has next to no bad matchups.

....because he's good? lol

 

[Quik17]

MK is not 50:50. What the hell are you guys smokin?

 

[Darky-Sama]

Meta Knight vs Wario?

50:50 seems reasonable to me.
55:45 Meta, if not.

That match-up doesn't really seem 'too' levied in Meta Knight's favor if the Wario knows his air game and spaces properly. I mean, yeah, it's Meta Knight. But Wario is one of those characters that even Meta Knight will have difficulty KOing with his amazing DI potential.

That, and Wario's super armor on his forward smash is just lolgetraped on Meta Knight.

 

[Gichan]

It's weird when it comes to Wario. For me, there are some characters that are bad matchups like G&W, Peach, Marth, MK ( but only the extra 5 points just for being MK, it isn't as bad as it is for others), DDD, Luigi.

These characters completely outprioritize Wario's moves and we are completely dependant on bait and punish strategy; and what if they want to play the same game? We are then in trouble.

But us Wario mains HAVE to remember and realize, when playing a character that seems like a bad matchup, we HAVE to play differently. We cannot always go for those dairs or nairs OOS shenanigans. Sometimes fairs are better, sometimes ftilt should be used more. Stuff like that, this is a note I must take myself, but for those who are wondering some things like myself, I am just reminding you that it has to be played differently.

 

[Cloud9157]

I completely object the MK and Snake MUs. Snake ESPECIALLY.

So because you eat Cypher means so much? It doesn't happen often enough to change the MU like that. No good Snake will recover from that low to let you do that. They DI up, DJ, and Cypher immidiately, putting themselves out of just about every character's range.

How do you beat Ftilt? The predictable AD? You guys lack so much range, and he has far too much of it to have a 4:6 against you.

Granted Snake can't really camp Wario from a distance, but mid-range is not a stretch for Snake. When you need to get in range of him to damage with Dair for example, he will almost always have Grenades crawling around him to protect him and make you think twice in attacking him.

Second, Wario has 2 truly reliable kill moves. Fart will kill pretty well, but if you whiff, you're stuck with 2 moves. Fsmash may have SA, but it lacks range, and it you can be grabbed right out of it. Uair also lacks range, and Snake will still live into high percents from both of those moves.

I just don't understand how you think you can gimp him so much better than anyone else in the game besides MK and maybe 1 or 2 characters. Eating Cypher is situational from the sounds of it.

The MU should be even from my pov, if not 55:45 Snake. Hell, 6:4 Snake would be even better.

And I thought Wario only had a CG on Dk till about 102%? Didn't think it was an infinite. Either way, Wario still has that one, but it isn't beyond hope like D3/DK.

I don't agree with MK either. It's at least 55:45 MK.

And I just feel like I need to say this, but if you can justify why he is so much better than everyone to deserve third on the TL, then go ahead.

Wario's entire offensive strategy relies on captializing on opponent's mistakes. Everyone in S tier has some form of offensive strategy that is completely separate from their punishing ability. In other words, punishing isn't what they rely on the most.

MK is MK pretty easy there. Snake will punish with tilts, but also has grenades along with DACUS and Dthrow tech chase, Diddy does insane things with Naners, grabs, and aerials, Falco will laser and Phantasm along with CG, D3 will use Dthrow CG or a Bthrow/Fthrow, can use a wall of Bairs and Waddle spam.

Honestly, people will learn to play this MU like they did with Olimar, and then Wario won't be so intimidating.

Wario relies on about 4 moves. Nair, Dair, Bair, Fair. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I completely object the MK and Snake MUs. Snake ESPECIALLY.

So because you eat Cypher means so much? It doesn't happen often enough to change the MU like that. No good Snake will recover from that low to let you do that. They DI up, DJ, and Cypher immidiately, putting themselves out of just about every character's range.

How do you beat Ftilt? The predictable AD? You guys lack so much range, and he has far too much of it to have a 4:6 against you.

Granted Snake can't really camp Wario from a distance, but mid-range is not a stretch for Snake. When you need to get in range of him to damage with Dair for example, he will almost always have Grenades crawling around him to protect him and make you think twice in attacking him.

Second, Wario has 2 truly reliable kill moves. Fart will kill pretty well, but if you whiff, you're stuck with 2 moves. Fsmash may have SA, but it lacks range, and it you can be grabbed right out of it. Uair also lacks range, and Snake will still live into high percents from both of those moves.

I just don't understand how you think you can gimp him so much better than anyone else in the game besides MK and maybe 1 or 2 characters. Eating Cypher is situational from the sounds of it.

The MU should be even from my pov, if not 55:45 Snake. Hell, 6:4 Snake would be even better.

And I thought Wario only had a CG on Dk till about 102%? Didn't think it was an infinite. Either way, Wario still has that one, but it isn't beyond hope like D3/DK.

I don't agree with MK either. It's at least 55:45 MK.

And I just feel like I need to say this, but if you can justify why he is so much better than everyone to deserve third on the TL, then go ahead.

Wario's entire offensive strategy relies on captializing on opponent's mistakes. Everyone in S tier has some form of offensive strategy that is completely separate from their punishing ability. In other words, punishing isn't what they rely on the most.

MK is MK pretty easy there. Snake will punish with tilts, but also has grenades along with DACUS and Dthrow tech chase, Diddy does insane things with Naners, grabs, and aerials, Falco will laser and Phantasm along with CG, D3 will use Dthrow CG or a Bthrow/Fthrow, can use a wall of Bairs and Waddle spam.

Honestly, people will learn to play this MU like they did with Olimar, and then Wario won't be so intimidating.

Wario relies on about 4 moves. Nair, Dair, Bair, Fair. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Bair isn't really too reliable. Needs more Fastfall Uair, which can **** Snake as well if you can dodge a tilt and punish with it. I can agree somewhat. Snake can wreck Wario mainly due to his grab release -> tilt / Nair punisher. Wario completely wrecks Snake's projectile game however, leaving him with very few choices of tactical percision that is usually a large sum of the metagame.

However, that does not rid people of Snake's tilts. Very dangerous and the only way to really get around them is to bait a Snake into being punished by a perfectly angled Bike or Forward Smash. Once Snake is off the stage. It's pretty much over for him. He gets close to the edge, get your bike out and throw it on him if you don't feel confident enough to attempt a Chomp. Anything can push Snake on the cypher, especially the Dair if you can hit him with it correctly. Space around the cypher itself, if not you'll most likely get hit. Snake's super armor on it will cause him to take all the damage from the Dair though, and if he releases from the cypher, of course, it locks and will provide a bit of knockback.

Even with that, Snake is a horrible match-up for Wario if they know how to punish a Wario as he's coming out of the air. I had that trouble when playing Bunnyma before the AiB playoffs began. First time I had ever seen a Snake with so much matchup experience on how to punish a Wario every ****ing time he landed. Either that, or I'm just lacking way too much in my Wario/Snake match-up knowledge.

 

[PhantomX]

You're lacking in your Wario/Snake matchup knowledge, lol. We already mentioned that MK Wario is most likely 55:45 MK, Snake is probably 50:50 - 55:45 in our favor.

Also, don't say that cypher gimps don't happen. I'd say Ultimate Razer is a good Snake and I gimp him at least once a set. We beat ftilt with this awesome little trick called POWERSHIELDING. Also, SPOTDODGING into grab works as well. I loled at our upair and fsmash lacking range, you practically negated everything you mentioned by saying that. Also, our ftilt kills reliably as well. Our nair can easily eat Snake's DJs, we can chase him high with bike jumps for early upair kills, if you've gotten to hte point where you incorporate footstooling into your game, that easily sets up for gimps as well, if he always recovers high, an instant wipeout > bikethrow can **** him up as well.. It's still not something that you can depend on entirely, but there certainly is more than one way to gimp a snake.

Also, you seem to be forgetting that Wario can punish ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, including NOT MOVING, SHIELDING, OR DODGING. The other S tiers can't do this.

You also forgot to mention Wario's bite and his grab, they're crucial to his game, and putting opponents into predictable/rapeable positions. People already camp hard and run from Wario, doesn't really help them, just makes things a little bit more annoying for the Wario player is all... plus he doesn't even have to chase b/c it builds up waft.

 

[Cloud9157]

You're lacking in your Wario/Snake matchup knowledge, lol. We already mentioned that MK Wario is most likely 55:45 MK, Snake is probably 50:50 - 55:45 in our favor.

Also, don't say that cypher gimps don't happen. I'd say Ultimate Razer is a good Snake and I gimp him at least once a set. We beat ftilt with this awesome little trick called POWERSHIELDING. Also, SPOTDODGING into grab works as well. I loled at our upair and fsmash lacking range, you practically negated everything you mentioned by saying that. Also, our ftilt kills reliably as well. Our nair can easily eat Snake's DJs, we can chase him high with bike jumps for early upair kills, if you've gotten to hte point where you incorporate footstooling into your game, that easily sets up for gimps as well, if he always recovers high, an instant wipeout > bikethrow can **** him up as well.. It's still not something that you can depend on entirely, but there certainly is more than one way to gimp a snake.

Also, you seem to be forgetting that Wario can punish ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, including NOT MOVING, SHIELDING, OR DODGING. The other S tiers can't do this.

You also forgot to mention Wario's bite and his grab, they're crucial to his game, and putting opponents into predictable/rapeable positions. People already camp hard and run from Wario, doesn't really help them, just makes things a little bit more annoying for the Wario player is all... plus he doesn't even have to chase b/c it builds up waft.

I don't claim that Cypher gimps don't happen. I stated that they don't happen enough to change a MU like that.

If Fsmash and Uair don't lack range, then nothing in this game does. For a smash move, Fsmash sucks in the range category. Uair has so-so range, but it still really isn't that good.

Wario can build up Waft all he wants, because I'll gladly take a fully charged Waft than a half charged one.

If you use Bike to try and get up to Snake, I'll use the same thing you used: It's called Airdodging off of Cypher. Hell, he can even Nair off it if he feels gutsy.

 

[PhantomX]

You can't airdodge when you first use the cypher, dude. If you recover high every time, he can jump up and clap you as you're starting it.

Also, Wario's upair range is greater than his entire body... I don't understand how that has ****ty range? It outranges almost every dair in the game. Fsmash range is also deceptively large as it has an invisible hitbox that extends past his shoulder.

 

[toobusytocare]

IMO MK is 60:40 MK's favor

and Snake is 55:45-60:40 Wario's favor

snake just seems bad vs wario *shrug*

 

[Darky-Sama]

I still see it as:

50:50 Meta/Wario.
55:45 Snake.

I just have a much tougher time getting around Snake than Meta Knight. I don't know if that's normal but I just find it much easier to DI against and punish (yes, I said punish) Meta Knight than it is to get around Snake's all range, kill potent tilts.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Well, I've come back to smashboards after months of computer issues. Glad to be back.

Now, to contribute something useful. While I certainly don't have enough brawl experience to give you in-depth help on the fox analysis, I would call it something like 70:30 (or similar). Going along with the fact that Falco has major issues with killing wario, fox has the same problems but you can tack on the fact that he has no reliable chain grabs or spikes. Fox also suffers from a fallweight almost 3 times that of falco's, and even his regular weight is (slightly) lower. Wolf has a spike, but his laser is less reliable for racking up cheap damage and he too has no chaingrab that I can think of. Higher fallweight than falco, but also higher regular weight. Wolf is probably 60:40, imo.

Anyways, this is shaping up to be a great guide MC.

 

[toobusytocare]

i would see wolf as a bit more than 60:40


we can CG him to 70% and thats quite a lot of free damage lol

 

[KrazyGlue]

60:40 was somewhat of an estimate. Maybe it's 65:35, I dunno.

By the way, here's what the wolf boards have to say about the matchup:

Wario
Rating: 45:55
Discussion:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195143

Wario is an unusual character to fight against. He has great aerial mobility, even better shield pressure, strong KO moves and he himself lives very long. Wario will probably try to come through the air waving back and forth. He will try to bait an attack and punish it accordingly, so don't let him fool you. Just because he comes cose doesn't mean he's gonna attack you. This takes patience to deal with. Wario has good aerials: Combined with his high air speed his dair is a relatively dafe shield poking move, fis fair hass combo potential and his uair can KO opponents pretty well. Staying in your shield is a bad idea as he can either penetrate it with dair or eat through it with his bite. Instead make use of your reflector and counter attack him - Wolf has much more range than Wario on almost all his moves and Wolf actually has similar aerial mobility so try to keep your range by jumping away.
Wario has the advantage in this match-up but not by much. Wolf can be troublesome for Wario, since he's the only character who has similar aerial mobility and completely outranges him. But Wario is heavy, has a very good recovery and better KO moves than Wolf: half-charged farts and a fresh fsmash will KO you before you can KO Wario. His fsmash is pretty much the best in the game.

 

[PhantomX]

Pretty sure that was written before we found that CG that lets us get them from 63 - 200. Also, he's easy to gimp.

 

[KrazyGlue]

Yeah, I figured it was something like that.

I didn't say I agreed with it though. I just figured it would help.

Anyway, it's probably 65:35 (maybe even 70:30?); my original 60:40 estimate was probably too close, now that I think about it.

 

[toobusytocare]

Pretty sure that was written before we found that CG that lets us get them from 63 - 200. Also, he's easy to gimp.

Cant we start the wolf CG at 20%?

EDIT: Nvm i just checked


59-200%


so thats wayyy more CGing than i thought we could do LOL

 

[MorphedChaos]

Alright, I'm back from a break. I'll go type up the matchups for Fox and Wolf. I will also edit a few matchups as well, and add a new section. "What to do if your opponent has more priority then you (Aka, Luigi, Peach ext...)"

 

[phi1ny3]

Can someone point me to the lucario discussion? The info on the OP seems... dated.

 

[toobusytocare]

we arent there yet.


we are way behind on our matchup thread LOL

 

[Romulox2010]

can someone tell me if the CG on wolf from 69%-200% is buffered or jus turn around and repeat like the DK one?

 

[PhantomX]

It's buffered. If you don't buffer it he can shine out.

 

[Romulox2010]

is there any way of just looking @ wario in the dthrow motion to know when 2 buffer it?

 

[toobusytocare]

when his hands are closing

basically you dthrow then immediately hold the direction you need to buffer, then when his hands are closing you release the joystick and hit grab


read the whole CG thread for multiple methods of getting the timing

 

[Deoxys]

I have found a small mistake in your MK matchup description.

"our airdodge lasts as long or even longer then MK's Bair, his longest lasting aerial."

MK's longest aerial in terms of the time between the first and last frame with hitboxes is nair, so what's important is that it is longer than nair.

 

[Padô]

yea we can still airdodge it.

 

[TheTomNookster]

GREAT guide, MC. There's only one thing I didn't quite get...

-Using the bike to extend your hitboxes.
You can attack the bike with your moves, and extend the length of the move, both distance wise and time wise, which can help you connect better or punish a spot dodger.

Can someday further explain this or provide an example through a YouTube video?

 

[KrazyGlue]

Well, here's some stuff from the discussion on Wario from the ZSS board (to help the matchup analysis). Note that it's from about 5 months ago, so I'm not sure if it's still accurate.

So let's get the infinite out of the way first. **** is hard, no doubt about it. To perform, you have to grab release into the air (so no platforms) and then regrab with only a couple frames of error. There is no way (to my knowledge) of getting a guaranteed d-smash out of grab release. So in general, it's a pummel infinite. (and thus, not really worth it). BUT, we can still force air release, which means we can get guaranteed hits on him out of it (like ph00t stated). I personally like doing f-air, but I would also like to look into up-b, that sounds like a solid idea.


Now, as for the actual match-up.

in the air, Wario is a beaaaaast. his airdodge is above par, is aerial control is astounding, his dair is a **** multi hit and sets up for tons of stuff and autocancels easy, his nair has two hitboxes and ***** sauce. All of this combined with the fact that he can airgrab at any time (given 2 frames). Probably the only reliable way to encounter Wario in the air is with B-Air or U-Air, but be careful with U-Air, because if you jump past him you're going to get ***** (clap/anything he wants). He's got way too much air control to get hit with aerial side-bs on a frequent basis, and that same aerial control lets him punish you too.

As for the ground, just watch out for his f-smash and grabs really, I don't know any Warios that spend all that much time on the ground. You can punish a lot of his ground stuff with grabs so they'll be really hesitant to use them.

A big focus here is avoiding Warios kill moves. If you take away f-smash and u-air you can survive to a ridiculously high percent. Of course, watch for wafts at low percent, that can set the match into a "holy **** I need to catch-up" pace, which you really don't want.

As for edgeguarding, either way I doubt there will be a lot of gimp kills. I mean, Wario's f-air is a pretty good GTFO aerial, but he just doesn't have the vertical speed to catch up with ZSS. As for him, if he's forced to use the bike abuse the **** out of that fact and try to predict where he'll JUMP OUT of the bike. However, his aerial control means he'll raaaarely use the bike. Also, sidenote: his up-b can't sweetspot the ledge, so if he has to use it, d-smash the **** right out of him.

In general: this match is a ****load of u-smash. surprisingly enough u-smash is a ridiculously good move here. it's one of ZSS's only answers to Wario's aerial superiority, it'll hit through everything of his AND punish airdodges (if spaced properly). And once you've got Wario at a higher altitude it's easier to properly space u-airs and b-airs.

As for killing, one benefit we have in this match up is the ease of connecting with a b-air. Since Wario spends most of his time in the air, we don't have to try as hard to land our aerial kill move, which we will save till your at kill range (140%). I agree, this is much higher than ZSS's kill percent against Wario's f-smash or clap (~120 or ~100). However, to me, connecting with f-smash or clap can be a pain in the ***. Clap is going to be more reliable and less risky than f-smash. the infinite does not matter in this match-up, it's too hard to practice and it takes too long to rack up damage, IT'S USELESS.

ZSS will win on stages where she can run away if she can keep moving constantly (i.e. large stages [preferably flat] like Lylat, FD, PS1). Once Wario gets in your face you're screwed. You can jab us, that's mostly it, and if you try to do the trip jabs they can be perfect shielded. Dtilt and dsmash if you're facing us will get sh naired most likely, or any of your moves will get shieldgrabbed.

I'd also like to note that due to the trajectory of ZSS' recovery. Throwing the bike over the edge, or even straight up near the edge and then grabbing said edge is amazing against her.

I don't give a **** about the infinite lol. A lot of people go on and on about how ZSS wrecks Wario because she can infinite him, so I point out how relatively little it means in the grand scheme of things. If someone is gonna use an infinite on me, I have no problem pointing out or even showing the flaws in it, just to make it clear that it doesn't really affect the matchup.

The matchup isn't 50:50 overall IMO. I'm not saying that because I don't understand ZSS, I'm saying that because Wario is SUPER GAY and happens to win this matchup. Let me repeat that, Wario is SUPER HOMO, super gay. The only possible stage she could have a 50:50 on is FD, and we can just use our stage ban/strike on that. Everything else I can think of is 55:45 for him or higher, in some cases breaking past 60:40 sadly (Rainbow Cruise and Japes fit this bill among others).

Wario can airdodge through her safely compared to her trying to airdodge past Wario. She's also vulnerable from below where Wario can force her to airdodge or eat a clap and then punish the airdodge with a waft or clap or whatever. ZSS can sometimes force Wario to airdodge but actually punishing it is her problem. She can't go one direction and then switch as fast as he can without losing speed.

Wario can airdodge through her safely compared to her trying to airdodge past Wario. She's also vulnerable from below where Wario can force her to airdodge or eat a clap and then punish the airdodge with a waft or clap or whatever. ZSS can sometimes force Wario to airdodge but actually punishing it is her problem. She can't go one direction and then switch as fast as he can without losing speed.

Dtilt is good, but it props us up, which means a quick dair in retaliation, Dsmash is a good spacer, but I'm pretty sure nair oos comes out faster than it, once we're safely inside your zone. I'd also like to point out that it's silly to assume you're ungimpable. It's unlikely, but it's more likely that we gimp you (I manage to pull it off from time to time) than vice. Her uptilt isn't as great at keeping Wario out from getting under the platforms as say, D3s or Snake's uptilt, or Marth's upair though, so he will probably be able to get you out.

u-smash is great for platform harassment. it's great for anti-air harassment in general, but platforms make it that much better.

Hope this helps...

 

[Darky-Sama]

Can someday further explain this or provide an example through a YouTube video?

If the bike is left out of the stage, whenever an attack hits it, or another destructible object (Ex. Shyguys on Yoshi's Island, Statues on Castle Siege), the attack that hits one of those objects gains a larger hit box, and stays out longer than usual.

For example, Captain Falcon's Knee of Justice.
If he were to knee a Shyguy on Yoshi's Island, the entire Shyguy basically becomes the range of his Knee's hitbox. If that Shyguy is inside of anyone's hurtbox when hit, it usually results in a sweetspotted knee on them.

The hit box does NOT grow larger depending on what object you hit, however. It's just mainly the hit lag and a slight range boost you gain from hitting something.

Wario's Bike counts as one of those objects.
That, and you could always use it to un-stale any of your moves.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

I don't think the hitbox extends in size. It only lags and stays out longer thereby giving yourself an easier time connecting with it.

 

[I am Seth]

I agree with phantom that getting hit by falcos bair is for some reason pretty common. it's seems to be just in that area where you jump over his lazer camping and while recovering.

 

[PepsiMista]

Just to add to the fox matchup, If youre in 0% and the fox gets to land a Dair, he can do a few utilts and grab you.

 

[Gichan]

What's the new matchup being discussed?

 

[Darky-Sama]

What's the new matchup being discussed?

I thought I saw them posting in the ZSS boards about the next match-up.

 

[DTP]

Luigi boards are still discussing you guys!
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250972

Discussion is kinda dying, but I think there's still more to talk about regarding the match up

 

[smashkng]

Luigi is SO annoying, it's unusual being a character that completely outpriorises Wario. I don't like it at all. I don't like to be outpriorised. Probably other people think the same about Luigi's priority. It's so easier to play Snake instead due the amazing range of Snake compared to the crappy range of Luigi.

 

[Barett]

Idk if its been discussed but the matchup with yoshi needs to be reworked. Yoshi has a grab release infinite against wario. Obviously greatly hampers alot of our game. of course if the wario plays smart he can win, but if u get grabbed 1nce, 1 stock.

 

[PhantomX]

This already factors in their "infinite."

 

[toobusytocare]

Idk if its been discussed but the matchup with yoshi needs to be reworked. Yoshi has a grab release infinite against wario. Obviously greatly hampers alot of our game. of course if the wario plays smart he can win, but if u get grabbed 1nce, 1 stock.

Ike, ZSS, Bowser, Yoshi can all infinite wario.

wario still beats them all

grab release infinites suck <_<

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ike, ZSS, Bowser, Yoshi can all infinite wario.

wario still beats them all

grab release infinites suck <_<

Doesn't peach have like a grab release footstool infinite or something along those lines?