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FalseFalco

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What matchups are so influenced? I think the impact of the transformations is exaggerated far too much. It might be random in the sense that it has a random cycle but it isn't random in the sense that it's unpredictable. You get about a year of flashing and smoke before the change, after which you can even choose not to fight if you feel you're at a disadvantage. If your opponent comes to you they are at a disadvantage going overtop of the mountain/tree.

It's red because this is my smashboards face
 

pockyD

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<3 YOU CALLED HIM RANDALL

Recovering with marth, fox, peach, barrel eats you and spits you down/sideways. Randall only saves lives.
well, he also presents some edgeguard options that you wouldn't normally have to deal with

and getting launched out of the barrel is something the user controls; sure it's usually an accident, but it's still something they could have avoided

I'm not actually opposed to KJ64 as neutral. It's been done before and works fine, but I feel Pokemon is far more deserving.
so really, why not campaign for them both? especially since there is no 'magic number' of stages that should be 'neutral'?
 

FalseFalco

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PockyD said:
well, he also presents some edgeguard options that you wouldn't normally have to deal with

and getting launched out of the barrel is something the user controls; sure it's usually an accident, but it's still something they could have avoided
If we're going to get finnicky then why not ban everything but FD/Battlefield? Because the line has to be drawn about what is impacting and what isn't. This line includes Yoshi's, DL64, FoD, Pokemon and that's what we're arguing about remember?

As for the barrel, Sometimes it buffers and instantly shoots you. Admit it, you've been barrel-****ed before.

PockyD said:
so really, why not campaign for them both? especially since there is no 'magic number' of stages that should be 'neutral'?
Red Herring. The issue right now is about Pokemon, but to entertain the idea I refer you to my argument that the barrel is a random damaging element and therefore doesn't qualify.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
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What matchups are so influenced? I think the impact of the transformations is exaggerated far too much. It might be random in the sense that it has a random cycle but it isn't random in the sense that it's unpredictable. You get about a year of flashing and smoke before the change, after which you can even choose not to fight if you feel you're at a disadvantage. If your opponent comes to you they are at a disadvantage going overtop of the mountain/tree.

It's red because this is my smashboards face
Fox vs Anything is influenced :mad:

Consider this, what match up can be played even remotely the same on neutral as well as Mountain/Fire stages?

And it's not the fact that you cant see the changes coming, its just what they do. More often than not matches just stop when those transformations come up. Literally just stop until they go away. Not only do they completely disrupt the actual game play but they are apparently so broken most players prefer not to play on them at all.

:mad:
 

FalseFalco

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Fox vs Anything is influenced :mad:

Consider this, what match up can be played even remotely the same on neutral as well as Mountain/Fire stages?

And it's not the fact that you cant see the changes coming, its just what they do. More often than not matches just stop when those transformations come up. Literally just stop until they go away. Not only do they completely disrupt the actual game play but they are apparently so broken most players prefer not to play on them at all.

:mad:
You're exaggerating the impact again. 30 seconds is a negligible timeframe in an 8 minute match. Are players not allowed to stand still for 30 seconds on FD? is that disruptive? it's the same thing.

If one player chooses to approach they're at a diadvantage almost instantly in those forms so there's no reason to anyway.

We could always learn how to play on fire and rock but that's too much of a hassle isn't it ;)
 

Pink Reaper

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On FD it is never REQUIRED that you stand still for 30 seconds. The stage never forces it on you.

And you've stated yourself how much certain parts of the Fire/Rock stages put players in incredibly advantageous positions. It's not a matter of learning to play on those stage. How does a Falcon approach a Fox camping the center hole on the rock stage? He doesnt, he waits however long it takes for the stage to disappear. No matter how the match was going BEFORE that transformation, everything changed the second it happened.

SMILEY WARS :mad:
 

FalseFalco

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On FD it is never REQUIRED that you stand still for 30 seconds. The stage never forces it on you.
Pokemon doesn't force you to either, the FD example was to show it isn't a crime to do so.

And you've stated yourself how much certain parts of the Fire/Rock stages put players in incredibly advantageous positions.
"incredibly advantageous position" is a gross overstatement.

It's not a matter of learning to play on those stage.
Yes it is. Part of playing on fountain is to use the changing platforms, part of playing on Dreamland is knowing how the tree works, part of playing on water is using the windmill. No character suddenly becomes super broken once the map changes even though you're working hard to make a big deal out of it.


How does a Falcon approach a Fox camping the center hole on the rock stage? He doesnt, he waits however long it takes for the stage to disappear. No matter how the match was going BEFORE that transformation, everything changed the second it happened.
The option to approach is always there (contradicting your statement about players being "forced" to do things) but I already stated both characters are at a disadvantage if they do so. How does a Fox approach a Falcon outside of the rock crevice? He can but he's at a disadvantage. Never in the history of smash bros has a matchup been consistently decided on pokemon by the transformations. You can't blame something like that unless you john about sand in your shoe first.

Besides which, how does falcon approach sheik on FoD? how does he fight marth on yoshi's? The disadvantage against fox is on Pokemon is already there and it's not any "EXTREEEEEM DISADVANTAGE" you can blame on a map change. We need to stop treating it like one.
 

da K.I.D.

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those KOs that are equally available (i.e. nuetral) to both players?

this convo reminds me of that vid of Isai vs NEO, where isai, stood still for the first 45 seconds or so of the match. I really dont see any difference between that and the waiting out of the transformations.

plus, you brought up that matchup falcon vs fox. saying that the second the mountain comes up, everything is completely changed about the flow of the game.

Thats not true, ive seen plenty of people tech chasing and comboing the hell out of people with falcon, the stage will switch, the falcon will see the mountain coming and flawlessly use the changing stage to elongate and intensify the combos. Im pretty sure falcon and ganon get up throw chaingrabs on a few people, when they are standing on a rising platform, such as what happens during said transformation.

Its like FF said, its all a matter of learning the stage.
 

KAOSTAR

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@pockyD-from awhile back, I knew what you meant, I just assumed mbr had done the work already so to speak. I agree with the conclusion. I was looking for the answer.

I honestly don't see FoD being nearly as bad as stadium. its more annoying that the platforms can sneak up on you but no different then randal (idk if the plats are random).

stadium isn't that bad, but I agree rock and fire both pose a problem. in tournament play people choose not to fight there because the **** is ****ing garbage.

A hole which one player can sit in and be completely protected on 3/4 sides is a huge shift away from neutrality. no matter what the other person has to approach from above. first person in there gets 30s free seconds of clock wasting. they are at a significant advantage because of the stage.

30s is not negligible:
1 it happens more than once
2 two transformations double problem
3 the match isn't guaranteed 8 minutes. so that 30s means alot more in a 3 minute match.
4 because 1 player has a huge hindrance the match stops until it goes away.
5 a neutral stage is either neutral or its not. not sometimes neutral sometimes not.


a neutral stage is a stage with:
-no walls
-no non neutral hazards (they apply force equally-randal, platforms, wind, barrel, lava.)
-no damage giving hazards
-ceiling must be unobstructed from vertical ascension over the center(excluding glitches)
-cannot pass through the main platform from below.
 

FalseFalco

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wow you pulled a lot of that out of your bum but I'll take you seriously for a second:

stadium isn't that bad, but I agree rock and fire both pose a problem. in tournament play people choose not to fight there because the **** is ****ing garbage.
Simply not true. People pick it all the time, it's just not possible to pick it on the first round (for no good reason) and this is a problem. "**** is ****ing garbage" is a gross overstatement.

A hole which one player can sit in and be completely protected on 3/4 sides is a huge shift away from neutrality. no matter what the other person has to approach from above. first person in there gets 30s free seconds of clock wasting. they are at a significant advantage because of the stage.
They are not "protected" in any way. I've caught people off guard a million times coming from the outside. The game doesn't stop, it just becomes non-advantageous to approach for both parties. For both parties. As in no one player gains an advantage. durrrr

30s is not negligible:
1 it happens more than once
2 two transformations double problem
3 the match isn't guaranteed 8 minutes. so that 30s means alot more in a 3 minute match.
4 because 1 player has a huge hindrance the match stops until it goes away.
5 a neutral stage is either neutral or its not. not sometimes neutral sometimes not.
-1/2 lol @ "double problem"; That's not quite how math works but I'll oblige anyway. How many times per average round does the map change? I'd peg it at about 3 or 4, so assuming all of the transformations are rock and fire AND both players choose to camp, The clock becomes 6 minutes. That's still double the "average" time of 3 minutes you suggested.

-3 also not how math works
-4 that doesn't even make sense but I'm pretty sure I've addressed whatever you're talking about already.
-5 I agree!

So once again I state that 30 seconds is negligible and arguing about banning it for that reason is ridiculous.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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I just don't know how long the transformations last. I took worst case being 15s, and 2 of the stages being non neutral. adding up to the 30s. either way 30s of 3 minutes is 1/6 of the match. if the stages are random it could be more or if the match is less than 3 minutes. its not negligible.

its pretty easy to get two of the transformations are not neutral. for starters they have walls. if they were stages on their own they would probably be banned. if they weren't they are definitely counter pick. so neutral is all or nothing. for at least 30s the stage is not neutral and ppl tend to sit and wait. if you could remove them from the line up I would say stadium is neutral completely since all transformations are neutral.

its all or nothing and stadium isn't neutral. kongo is more neutral than stadium. imo that would be the next step. if kongo isn't neutral stadium isn't even considered.
 

The Good Doctor

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I just don't know how long the transformations last. I took worst case being 15s, and 2 of the stages being non neutral. adding up to the 30s. either way 30s of 3 minutes is 1/6 of the match. if the stages are random it could be more or if the match is less than 3 minutes. its not negligible.

its pretty easy to get two of the transformations are not neutral. for starters they have walls. if they were stages on their own they would probably be banned. if they weren't they are definitely counter pick. so neutral is all or nothing. for at least 30s the stage is not neutral and ppl tend to sit and wait. if you could remove them from the line up I would say stadium is neutral completely since all transformations are neutral.

its all or nothing and stadium isn't neutral. kongo is more neutral than stadium. imo that would be the next step. if kongo isn't neutral stadium isn't even considered.
I wouldn't call ANY stage completely fair or even, hopefully no other good player would.
Your argument is faceless given those facts.
Stadium > Kongo in terms of fairness
 

pockyD

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If we're going to get finnicky then why not ban everything but FD/Battlefield? Because the line has to be drawn about what is impacting and what isn't. This line includes Yoshi's, DL64, FoD, Pokemon and that's what we're arguing about remember?
I think FD is the least balanced of any of the existing neutrals, but I'm 100% for a battlefield-only system.

Frankly, I'd be fine with any ___-only system, where ___ is an existing neutral. Sure it'll reflect a different metagame, but so long as it's not broken, I'm not sure that we can say it's inferior to what we have now

For the record, my personal definition of how "neutral" a stage is is simply how closely it resembles battlefield :)

As for the barrel, Sometimes it buffers and instantly shoots you. Admit it, you've been barrel-****ed before.
I personally NEVER have landed in the barrel and fired right away (at least, in tournament; I'm sure I have in ffa land or maybe some non-serious friendlies)

I'm fairly certain you can't buffer firing the barrel, and there's no real reason to be mashing buttons while off the edge unless you're dr. mario or something (where you're probably dead anyway if you're tornadoing that low); I have a pretty hard time understanding why it happens
 

KAOSTAR

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lol @ definition. im almost mad at how simple it is.

no vertical walls, no damaging hazards, open ceiling, closed floor= our neutral stage list.
 

Stevo

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I think the main issue here is simply that pokemon stadium was removed from the neutrals with almost no warning and almost no reasoning (given to the public at least)
 

pockyD

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why would it require a warning? do you have to actively learn how to NOT play on a stage?

reasoning was simple; people liked the round number of 5 for striking and out of the 'existing' 6 neutrals at the time, stadium was by far the least 'neutral'
 

The Good Doctor

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why would it require a warning? do you have to actively learn how to NOT play on a stage?

reasoning was simple; people liked the round number of 5 for striking and out of the 'existing' 6 neutrals at the time, Fountain of Crap was by far the least 'neutral' but we banned Stadium anyway...
Fix'd it for you
 

pockyD

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fountain of dreams: there's some fair warning with the water flow, then an average-sized platform moves half an inch

pokemon stadium: there's some fair warning with a flashing symbol in the background, then a giant mountain emerges from the ground that covers over half the stage

i'm going to need to you make some sort of attempt to explain your 'fix'

and once again, given that there's stage striking, it DOESN'T MATTER what stage is chosen. We can use flatzone as the 5th stage instead and matches will still play out fairly
 

Fortress | Sveet

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If stadium's transformations just kill 30 sec off the practically unlimited timer how does that "disrupt gameplay"? The stage doesn't effect the game in any unforeseen way.
 

Daigo Umehara

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So, why do you guys need rules for your tournaments? I think items are a good way to have fun in the tournament scene. When I play in tournaments, I always turn items on.
 

pockyD

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If stadium's transformations just kill 30 sec off the practically unlimited timer how does that "disrupt gameplay"? The stage doesn't effect the game in any unforeseen way.
you mean taking a near-forced 30 second break if the action is at something close to 'neutral' or having a rapidly changing landscape if you're already engaging your opponent doesn't seem even a tad bit 'disruptive'?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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fountain of dreams: there's some fair warning with the water flow, then an average-sized platform moves half an inch

pokemon stadium: there's some fair warning with a flashing symbol in the background, then a giant mountain emerges from the ground that covers over half the stage
I like how you equate both warnings as equal.



Would you say

a "water flow" which happens on a reflective surface and is difficult to notice while also focusing your vision on your target

is comparable to

the screen flashing with an image that corresponds to a change that will happen in 10 seconds and after the change the stage is entirely static and predictable.[/QUOTE]
 

The Good Doctor

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I like how you equate both warnings as equal.



Would you say

a "water flow" which happens on a reflective surface and is difficult to notice while also focusing your vision on your target

is comparable to

the screen flashing with an image that corresponds to a change that will happen in 10 seconds and after the change the stage is entirely static and predictable.
[/QUOTE]

Sveet, you know I love you right?
Just checking...
 

Fortress | Sveet

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you mean taking a near-forced 30 second break if the action is at something close to 'neutral' or having a rapidly changing landscape if you're already engaging your opponent doesn't seem even a tad bit 'disruptive'?
well for one, the stage is never unplayable. In every transformation there is a "fair" place to fight even if its well defended. Its equally disfavorable for them to leave that zone as you to approach it.

also are you saying that thinking or relaxing for 30 seconds is disruptive to gameplay? Do you also agree on a time limit between games?
 

pockyD

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I like how you equate both warnings as equal.



Would you say

a "water flow" which happens on a reflective surface and is difficult to notice while also focusing your vision on your target

is comparable to

the screen flashing with an image that corresponds to a change that will happen in 10 seconds and after the change the stage is entirely static and predictable.
the warning is barely even relevant; it's either there or it's not, and the point was only that a warning exists because many people don't think it does

the crux of the issue which you SOMEHOW managed to dodge is the gigantic mountain vs the tiny platform flinch

well for one, the stage is never unplayable. In every transformation there is a "fair" place to fight even if its well defended. Its equally disfavorable for them to leave that zone as you to approach it.
but why compromise? there's a reason we have 'neutrals' and cps

"playable" = cp. some arbitrary notion of balanced and unintrusive = 'neutral'

also are you saying that thinking or relaxing for 30 seconds is disruptive to gameplay? Do you also agree on a time limit between games?
whenever the player is forced to respond to something that the environment introduces, that is by definition 'disruptive'; i don't understand why you think that would even be up for debate. The question is whether it's "TOO" disruptive, and i think that is answered fairly simply by comparing a giant mountain to a slight change in platform height
 

Daigo Umehara

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When are items going to legal in MLG? I'm still waiting. I found this really good combo with Marth and a Pokeball.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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so they decided 5 neutrals. fine

first 4 are given.

1 must go

stadium or Fod? which is least neutral.

which one is least like the confirmed neutrals?

both stages move, changing the main platform and both have warnings (irrelevant).

how is a small shift in platform height comparable to a giant mountain?
/paraphrase
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I like how you equate both warnings as equal.



Would you say

a "water flow" which happens on a reflective surface and is difficult to notice while also focusing your vision on your target

is comparable to

the screen flashing with an image that corresponds to a change that will happen in 10 seconds and after the change the stage is entirely static and predictable.
the warning is barely even relevant; it's either there or it's not, and the point was only that a warning exists because many people don't think it does

the crux of the issue which you SOMEHOW managed to dodge is the gigantic mountain vs the tiny platform flinch
Somehow i thought you had the priorities wrong.... The way i see it, the warning is the entire issue. As long as you know exactly how the stage will be every second of the game, then there is no disruption.

well for one, the stage is never unplayable. In every transformation there is a "fair" place to fight even if its well defended. Its equally disfavorable for them to leave that zone as you to approach it.
but why compromise? there's a reason we have 'neutrals' and cps

"playable" = cp. some arbitrary notion of balanced and unintrusive = 'neutral'
you know yourself that neutrals and cps are concepts we created and are only what we assign them to be. nice circular argument ;)

also are you saying that thinking or relaxing for 30 seconds is disruptive to gameplay? Do you also agree on a time limit between games?
whenever the player is forced to respond to something that the environment introduces, that is by definition 'disruptive'; i don't understand why you think that would even be up for debate. The question is whether it's "TOO" disruptive, and i think that is answered fairly simply by comparing a giant mountain to a slight change in platform height
So are platforms disruptive? They are something individual stage environments introduce and players are forced to respond to them.

It seems the key part of disruptive that you're missing is that when we are positively sanctioning game knowledge (skill), being able to learn how the game will progress is more competitively fair than anything that is random.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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so poke floats, brinstar, big blue also have no disruptions because you know exactly how the course moves?

rainbow, onett has car warnings and timed drive by.

klap traps on japes

rotating stage on brinstar

mute city has a warning

none of these disrupt the fighting at all ¿
 

Pink Reaper

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Nah, the platforms and cars are pretty random on Big Blue. And there's no actual warning for the cars on Mute City. Also Brinstar Depths you can never be sure which way the stage will rotate. Those stages should obviously be CP.
 

The Good Doctor

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so poke floats, brinstar, big blue also have no disruptions because you know exactly how the course moves?

rainbow, onett has car warnings and timed drive by.

klap traps on japes

rotating stage on brinstar

mute city has a warning

none of these disrupt the fighting at all ¿
You obviously misunderstood his argument. Pocky said that "Stage disruption" was the main cause of Stadium going to counter pick b/c it's bad when you have to react to the stage and not your opponent. Sveet pointed out that stages with platforms inherently cause the same issue yet we accept it.

Don't even tell me you don't p[lay off Battlefield's platforms, you obviously HAVE too.

That argument is also ********. Stadium is a fine stage and it's also better than Fountain of ****.

I meant the stage change on mute. beeps

and yea other **** is probably random.

definitely cp
Mute is banned for the obvious reason that it has no ****ing edges.....
 

FalseFalco

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people liked the round number of 5 for striking and out of the 'existing' 6 neutrals at the time, stadium was by far the least 'neutral'
^Worst reason to ban a stage of all time. I thought MBR had a better way of doing things.
 

pockyD

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Somehow i thought you had the priorities wrong.... The way i see it, the warning is the entire issue. As long as you know exactly how the stage will be every second of the game, then there is no disruption.
pretty confusing since rainbow cruise and poke floats are among the most predictable stages in the game, yet nobody is claiming they're not 'disruptive'

you know yourself that neutrals and cps are concepts we created and are only what we assign them to be. nice circular argument ;)
that's a huge basis for what I'm saying though; the existing set of neutrals is whatever the greater smash population accepts it to be... for the umpteenth time, with stage striking in place, a specific stage here or there is nearly completely irrelevant. I've seen tournaments with stadium instead of fountain (hell, it's used for teams) and they turn out fine

there's just nothing to gain from changing the status quo though

So are platforms disruptive? They are something individual stage environments introduce and players are forced to respond to them.
good lord, back to 2nd grade reading comprehension to you. "The question is whether it's "TOO" disruptive". I don't see you pushing for FD only, so obviously you don't really think so either

It seems the key part of disruptive that you're missing is that when we are positively sanctioning game knowledge (skill), being able to learn how the game will progress is more competitively fair than anything that is random.
predictability is only part of it (hyrule, rc, and floats are all fairly static)...

it's entirely possible that, for example a player is caught in a chaingrab/wobble long before the stage changes into something unfavorable and (for example) lifts them into easy KO land near the top of the screen.

if you consider pokemon stadium 'predictable', what stages do you consider UNpredictable?!
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Pocky, you keep using disruptive to mean something its not.
dis·rupt (ds-rpt)
tr.v. dis·rupt·ed, dis·rupt·ing, dis·rupts
1. To throw into confusion or disorder
To answer your only question, i consider a stage unpredictable when you can't predict it. Brinstar Depths, Ice Mountain, FoD, Flatzone. They are random so there is no pattern to learn.

If we choose stadium, I can close my eyes and know that 80 seconds into the game the screen will flash the stage change in the background then at 90 seconds it will change to the mode it warned us about then at 120 seconds the stage will shift back to normal (with a warning at 110 seconds).
 

KAOSTAR

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that is dumb.

floats, I know exactly what I get before I pick it. same exact pattern. could write it out and it would always be true.

stadium is random, there is just a warning before a specific action. I don't know from the start the order is neutral rock neutral fire. I know its going to change, I know into what but its not the same thing every time. stadium is not predictable, its random and at some point you are told which stage it transforms to. you didn't predict ****.
 

T-block

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Are you really complaining about the randomness in Pokestad?

Peach's turnips have a randomness that affect the match far more. Luigi's misfire, GW's Judgement...
 
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