MBR Official Rule Set

[Pink Reaper]

Ignore The Good Doctor he obviously lacks reading comprehension skills.

 

[KAOSTAR]

it's in progress. if you have any input past a very generic "it's outdated" that would be helpful.

I was talking about the tier list but I see this is the wrong thread.

I guess, are you discussing anything specific as far as rules, like an actual debate that is current?

...or did you some how use the tri force of wisdom and knew I meant tier list?

 

[The Good Doctor]

Ignore The Good Doctor he obviously lacks reading comprehension skills.

Actually if you looked at my post before that, i thought we were talking about the tier list, and then i saw the topic and assumed it was the ruleset instead.

Sorry for thinking the topic was well...on topic?

 

[Nø Ca$h]

the stage format needs to improve.

read my posts in the corneria thread/tier list thread.

the only thing i havent decided on would be the CP format (like if winner gets a ban)

 

[Vyzor]

so is rainbow cruise banned yet? if not, kthxbye

but seriously, why is that stage still a counter pick? If corneria isnt a counter pick anymore and rainbow cruise is....well then thats frigging retarted :/

 

[Mogwai]

starts a chain reaction (that I'm completely ok with)

if you ban rainbow cruise, I think Bristar can't be left legal either, which then makes KJ64 feel really questionable. I think those 3 are a package deal, and if they're removed, then we're pretty much just left with the 6 neutrals which is... er, inconvenient for striking, but usable I guess... just makes first strike a bigger deal.

 

[Vyzor]

starts a chain reaction (that I'm completely ok with)

if you ban rainbow cruise, I think Bristar can't be left legal either, which then makes KJ64 feel really questionable. I think those 3 are a package deal, and if they're removed, then we're pretty much just left with the 6 neutrals which is... er, inconvenient for striking, but usable I guess... just makes first strike a bigger deal.

hmmm.....rainbow cruise just feels, so unfair and cheap. I wish it was banned. People always choose it as a last resort when they're losing.

 

[Mogwai]

and peach always picks brinstar on me. suck it up and ban it or push for the rules to be FoD, YS, FD, DL64, BF and PS (optional) with no bans.

 

[pockyD]

what's 'broken' about rainbow cruise?

you're pretty clearly being driven by emotion rather than logic

and how passionate you are does nothing to convince anyone else when your argument is hollow

 

[x After Dawn x]

gonna agree with pocky here

also i'm pretty sure brinstar would be banned before rainbow cruise. iirc brinstar was nearly banned for the current list because all of the spacies players were complaining but then the mbr decided not to ban it?

 

[pockyD]

which is really kind of silly because space animals play fine on brinstar

the only common character that is constantly getting 'screwed' by cp stages are the ice climbers

but it's just an inherent character weakness... a stage making a character unviable isn't banworthy imo; it's when a stage makes all 'other' characters unviable that it becomes an issue

 

[Strong Badam]

i didn't know IC's was a common char LOL

 

[Nø Ca$h]

neutrals
FD
FoD
BF

counterpick
YS
DL
PS
KJ

1st match each player strikes one stage. 2nd match winner bans 1 stage and loser gets their pick. mad balanced imo.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Neutrals are too skewed towards Falco. He strikes FoD and suddenly he's at an advantage no matter what.

 

[pockyD]

nothing inherently wrong with the stages favoring a character

 

[Nø Ca$h]

the neutrals arent totally in falcos favor. FD isnt that good for him if you can get around lasers. most chars have good combos on him that work better on FD because hes a fast faller.

 

[Pink Reaper]

nothing inherently wrong with the stages favoring a character

True, which is why I dont agree with the need to ban more stages. I dont fully understand what the point of reducing the stage list is. If the idea is that you want to make the game "More fair/even" then it fails on the principle that at the end of the day no matter what stage list you have certain characters will always be stronger on them. There's also the fact that reducing the stages strengthens the already good characters making them better while some of the more middling tier characters get the shaft. Low tiers will lose no matter what though cus they all suck. Especially Roy.

the neutrals arent totally in falcos favor. FD isnt that good for him if you can get around lasers. most chars have good combos on him that work better on FD because hes a fast faller.

Falco is comboable is a statement that remains 100% true no matter what stage he's on, it's not a strong argument for why a stage isnt good for him. And you seem to be completely oblivious of just how much a gun with infinite bullets and no where to hide really destroys most match ups. The 3 stages you have listed also give a crazy advantage to sheik but w/e no one plays her anyways.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol its true, nobody plays sheik.

and lawl, how is FoD more fair/balenced than dreamland or yoshi story

 

[Fletch]

FoD is probably the next "least neutral" stage after PS, if not worse than that. I don't know how you could argue it should be one of 3 neutrals.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I like Stadium WAY more....
like...WAY more

Fountain of Crap should be CP at best....

 

[Joe_Sumo]

WTF is this ?! There used to be like 15 legal stages. perhaps someone can tell me what happened to this list

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749

it's about 2/3 of the way down.

 

[x After Dawn x]

learn how to read

 

[FalseFalco]

Can someone from the MBR explain why Pokemon is counterpick and not neutral?
Can someone from the MBR also explain why pokefloats is not counterpick?

Thanks.

 

[pockyD]

simple answer for me is 'why not'?

what's your definition of a 'neutral'?

 

[KAOSTAR]

simple answer for me is 'why not'?

what's your definition of a 'neutral'?

but from the stand point of legal until proven to be a problem don't you have the burden of proof?

so specifically in this situation, it was neutral, and Mbr made it cp.

this all assuming they had legitimated stage lists up to that point.

what was the justification, or what is your(group) definition of a neutral?

 

[Smasher89]

WTF is this ?! There used to be like 15 legal stages. perhaps someone can tell me what happened to this list

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=42749

it's about 2/3 of the way down.

From my belief, the CFplayers got to the backroom.

 

[FalseFalco]

simple answer for me is 'why not'?

what's your definition of a 'neutral'?

That's not a legitimate reason. Neutral = a stage used in the stage striking process at the beginning of a match.

 

[pockyD]

but from the stand point of legal until proven to be a problem don't you have the burden of proof?

so specifically in this situation, it was neutral, and Mbr made it cp.

this all assuming they had legitimated stage lists up to that point.

what was the justification, or what is your(group) definition of a neutral?

That's not a legitimate reason. Neutral = a stage used in the stage striking process at the beginning of a match.

I didn't really think this would be an issue, but I guess I was misunderstood

I know that neutrals are used for stage striking (and formerly for random); my question was more along the lines of what criteria you would use to classify a stage as neutral, CP, or banned

And "why not" was meant to provoke what YOUR definition of neutral was such that stadium slots into it fine

 

[FalseFalco]

I didn't really think this would be an issue, but I guess I was misunderstood

I know that neutrals are used for stage striking (and formerly for random); my question was more along the lines of what criteria you would use to classify a stage as neutral, CP, or banned

And "why not" was meant to provoke what YOUR definition of neutral was such that stadium slots into it fine

Non-moving stage with no walk off edges, no harmful environmental elements, and which does not have any extreme disadvantage for a particular character.

Isn't this an agreeable definition? I feel it also describes every previous neutral stage list released.

 

[Pengie]

To be fair two of Stadium's transformations are very disruptive to gameplay (fire and ground) and they would both likely be banned if they were stand alone stages. I think that taht would be enough to move it to a counterpick especially if they are trying to move to a stage striking system where they need to have an odd number of stages; that being the case I don't really see how anyone can say that Fountain is more worthy of being a counterpick , thus why Stadium got relegated to being a counterpick.

 

[Stevo]

I would love to see the neutrals be small, medium, large

aka Yoshi's, Battlefield, Dreamland

you might say "well then we will always play on battlefield"

to which I answer

we already do.


but in all honesty, I do miss pokemon stadium.... perhaps the stage could be "hacked" into not changing? of course, this would require an easy way to distribute and use the hacked version.

 

[FalseFalco]

To be fair two of Stadium's transformations are very disruptive to gameplay (fire and ground) and they would both likely be banned if they were stand alone stages. I think that taht would be enough to move it to a counterpick especially if they are trying to move to a stage striking system where they need to have an odd number of stages; that being the case I don't really see how anyone can say that Fountain is more worthy of being a counterpick , thus why Stadium got relegated to being a counterpick.

if you're playing for serious you just camp. the fox infinites aren't guaranteed kills because of teching, and the changes are extremely predictable (a screen ****ing flashes in the background and the entire stage turns to mist).

You have to be pretty bad to get "disrupted" by that kind of thing.

Taking it off for an odd number of stages is dumb stuff. What's wrong with randoming with the last 2 maps? (nothing)

 

[Stevo]

Just pretend you are playing brawl for 20 seconds while you wait for it to change back

 

[pockyD]

Non-moving stage with no walk off edges, no harmful environmental elements, and which does not have any extreme disadvantage for a particular character.

Isn't this an agreeable definition? I feel it also describes every previous neutral stage list released.

First off you should replace the notion of 'disadvantage' with 'advantage', as it's pretty clear that several characters are hamstrung by the existing and widely accepted 'neutrals'

Secondly, Kongo Jungle 64 would fit under this criteria

Thirdly, I'm not sure I'd call pokemon stadium non-moving, and some transformations are DEFINITELY what can be deemed 'harmful'

Anyway, this is the important part...

In reality though, it doesn't matter; the set of neutrals to me should just be a subset of legal stages that are agreeable to most players, for any reason. With stage striking, any absurdly broken stage won't be played anyway (I've personally tested this with tournaments where Flatzone was included as a 'neutral')

If the inclusion of a **** stage doesn't drastically affect how the process plays out, then I can't imagine the omission of a borderline stage would

Pokemon Stadium and FoD are for whatever reason widely considered the most 'borderline' stages (though I'm personally pretty sure that FD deviates the most from the rest and YS plays significantly differently too), and it's just an arbitrary choice to meet the round required number of 5 stages, a number that has been proven through testing and practice to be effective yet not too restrictive

edit: Randoming with the last two stages can cause non-random stage choices due to the way it works (all stages need to be randomed to once before it's truly random).

The question you need to ask yourself is why you feel there need to be 6 stages? Why not 4? Why not 7? Why not 3? Why not play Battlefield (or whatever) only?

 

[Pengie]

That's the point, the transformations disrupt the flow of the match and the match more or less stops for about thirty seconds. The problem with walls isn't Fox's infinite (that's really a minor nuisance really), the problem is that they completely skew the balance between offense and defense, which is what causes those thirty second stops for half of the transformations.

The whole point of stage striking is to get rid of the random element, so randoming between the last two stages sort of defeats the purpose, don't you think? Personally, I never saw what was wrong with the 7 neutral stage set (FD, BF, DL64, KJ64, PS, YS, FoD) but the current stage set is based on the Pound 4 rule set, and because Plank decided to go with the 5 neutral set we now have that as the most common rule set. (Although I think I've only been to one tournament in FL that actually went with stage striking as opposed to everyone doing whatever they want and using the old rule set anyway >__>)

 

[Pink Reaper]

The question you need to ask yourself is why you feel there need to be 6 stages? Why not 4? Why not 7? Why not 3? Why not play Battlefield (or whatever) only?

Pocky i think it comes from the idea that things shouldnt be banned unless absolutely necessary. Stages like Corneria sit in a gray area when it comes to legality and there's obviously the feeling that if it's not definably bannable. It's not necessarily a matter of how many stages we have but rather banning outside of the already admittedly arbitrary reasons we ban things in the first place.

 

[FalseFalco]

First off you should replace the notion of 'disadvantage' with 'advantage', as it's pretty clear that several characters are hamstrung by the existing and widely accepted 'neutrals'

Yes, that is a better way of putting it.

Secondly, Kongo Jungle 64 would fit under this criteria

The barrel is a random harmful element. If we can argue about pokemon being "obstructive" then there is no argument about this.

Thirdly, I'm not sure I'd call pokemon stadium non-moving, and some transformations are DEFINITELY what can be deemed 'harmful'

The stage doesn't move like cruise or pokefloats. The cloud moves on yoshi's, the platforms move on fountain (OMG OBSTRUCTIVE!!!!). That's a really really weak argument.

Anyway, this is the important part...

In reality though, it doesn't matter; the set of neutrals to me should just be a subset of legal stages that are agreeable to most players, for any reason. With stage striking, any absurdly broken stage won't be played anyway (I've personally tested this with tournaments where Flatzone was included as a 'neutral')

If the inclusion of a **** stage doesn't drastically affect how the process plays out, then I can't imagine the omission of a borderline stage would

The point is that Pokemon isn't absurdly broken and because of the current ruleset can't be played in the first round (this is the problem). I think we can agree the first match "drastically" affects how the set plays out, and if something is/isn't present in the first match then it's important.

it's just an arbitrary choice to meet the round required number of 5 stages, a number that has been proven through testing and practice to be effective yet not too restrictive

Banning maps to meet a quota number is a BS reason to ban a stage. I was afraid this was part of the rationale and it's really, really stupid. The rule has always been not to ban a map unless it's far too broken for a character (fox on hyrule, etc) the arguments so far are limpwrist facades at sticking to this when the real motive is about making stage striking "work".

edit: Randoming with the last two stages can cause non-random stage choices due to the way it works (all stages need to be randomed to once before it's truly random).

If both players have already banned 2 maps then then the remaining 2 are at least more agreeable than 2/3 of the other maps. That's fine. Besides which, most setups at tournaments have had 9001 friendlies before serious matches anyway so you never know what you're going to get with random.

No good arguments against Pokemon so far.

 

[pockyD]

the barrel is far more helpful than harmful, and is certainly no more of a factor than randall

just because you reject an argument for no reason doesn't mean it wasn't one

 

[FalseFalco]

the barrel is far more helpful than harmful, and is certainly no more of a factor than randall

just because you reject an argument for no reason doesn't mean it wasn't one

<3 YOU CALLED HIM RANDALL

Recovering with marth, fox, peach, barrel eats you and spits you down/sideways. Randall only saves lives.

I'm not actually opposed to KJ64 as neutral. It's been done before and works fine, but I feel Pokemon is far more deserving.

I said good argument.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Mmmmm, I wouldnt agree with PokeStad being more deserving. The neutral stage is fine but the Fire/Rock transformations are entirely unbalancing. KJ64 might skew some match-ups but PokeStad randomly destroys some every now and then just for ****s and giggles.

Why did you switch to a red avatar?