Matchups Chart & Lists - Updated: 29/Oct

[Browny]

Just saw the 'tier list'

Thats really not a good way of going about it.

Matchup ratios are completely subjective. one board could say a matchup is 60:40 while anyone else would say 50:50 or 70:30, you have to assume AT LEAST +/- 10 points each way on every single ratio. when you apply this over 38 or so characters, the error builds up by 38 times. Of course this error could bounce back and forwards to give a net result of +0, But its still an inaccurate of defining tiers. I cant think of a better idea at the moment, but I do think it would simply be more accurate if you just make a list of advatantages in total. advantage = +1, disad = -1 etc.

 

[Ryusuta]

Just saw the 'tier list'

Thats really not a good way of going about it.

Matchup ratios are completely subjective,

As opposed to having a club of hand-picked members voting for the characters they like best; which is TOTALLY objective, right?

You said it yourself; there is no 100% objective, fool-proof way of determining tier placenent. Give the guy a break. It's still a work in progress after all. His methodology is easily more comprehensive than the random nonsense we've been subjected to previously.

I think that the only X factor that's missing is tournament results (which have their flaws, too); but overall I think this one of the most balanced and realistic gauges of a character's potential so far.

 

[Steeler]

as dumb as it is, i feel like commenting on this tier list thing

if you are really going to make a solid list based solely on matchups, then you also have to take into account the importance of each matchup. it's a lot more crippling to a character's potential if they are disadvantaged to dedede than if they are disadvantaged to ike. additionally, exceptionally horrible matchups against top characters (like dk vs dedede or fox vs pikachu) have to be accounted for accordingly. each matchup should be weighted somehow, but that would be a difficult process and everything.

anyway tier lists take a LOT of factors into account. i don't think this should be called a tier list, just to avoid confusion. maybe "matchup ratio rankings" or something.

i apologize if i'm just reposting stuff that someone said earlier.

 

[SuSa]

Do not.

I repeat do not use the Link matchup thread for your ratios.

D3 absolutely demolishes Link. 1 grab and there goes a stock because WE CANT RECOVER.

Anything you recently updated for Link - remove. I'd much rathers you even use the AiB one over the one here.

The one here is in 'best' scenarios, such as getting a CP against the character or something. I haven't even bothered with the thread because it's that bad.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That might explain why a lot of the links moved to AiB. I never really understood what happened there.

 

[Ryusuta]

No question about it, Allisbrawl has done a lot more to keep up-to-date on this sort of thing.

 

[SuSa]

Not just up-to-date, that is where all the knowledgeable Link mains went.

Would you rather have proper input from more knowledgeable Link's, or some weird BS like Link having a 60:40 on D3 and DK?

As an ex-Link main, I can promise you that 60:40 D3 is false. 1 CG and off-stage gimp wrecks us. To poor of a recovery to do anything about it.

 

[Ryusuta]

Doesn't Oddler still go here?

 

[Gates]

I was about to suggest using the Link Matchup thread on AiB too since it's more active.

 

[B!squick]

as dumb as it is, i feel like commenting on this tier list thing

if you are really going to make a solid list based solely on matchups, then you also have to take into account the importance of each matchup. it's a lot more crippling to a character's potential if they are disadvantaged to dedede than if they are disadvantaged to ike. additionally, exceptionally horrible matchups against top characters (like dk vs dedede or fox vs pikachu) have to be accounted for accordingly. each matchup should be weighted somehow, but that would be a difficult process and everything.

anyway tier lists take a LOT of factors into account. i don't think this should be called a tier list, just to avoid confusion. maybe "matchup ratio rankings" or something.

i apologize if i'm just reposting stuff that someone said earlier.

Dude, do you even know what a tier list is? Seriously, look at these here definitions:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tier
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/list

tier1 [teer] Show IPA ,
–noun 1. one of a series of rows or ranks rising one behind or above another, as of seats in an amphitheater, boxes in a theater, guns in a man-of-war, or oars in an ancient galley.
2. one of a number of galleries, as in a theater.
3. a layer; level; stratum: The wedding cake had six tiers. All three tiers of the firm's management now report to one director.
4. Australian. a mountain range.

–verb (used with object) 5. to arrange in tiers.

list1

• Show IPA
  –noun 1. a series of names or other items written or printed together in a meaningful grouping or sequence so as to constitute a record: a list of members.

• 
  
  And this here entry from a thesaurus:
  
  http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/tier
  
  

  Main Entry: tier
  Part of Speech: noun
  Definition: level
  Synonyms: bank, category, class, course, echelon, file, grade, group, grouping, layer, league, line, order, pigeonhole*, queue, range, rank, row, series, story, stratum, string

  Sooo... what's the difference between a "Match-ups 'Tier List'" and a "Match-up Ratio 'Rankings'"? Here's a hint... there isn't one...
  
  

  it's a lot more crippling to a character's potential if they are disadvantaged to dedede than if they are disadvantaged to ike. additionally, exceptionally horrible matchups against top characters (like dk vs dedede or fox vs pikachu) have to be accounted for accordingly.

  And why must it be accounted for exactly? What does "potential" have to do with this Match-up Tier List/Ranking? They don't take potential into account when they do match up numbers, obviously, I don't see what that has to do with anything.

 

[smashkng]

I believe DK vs Snake is at least 60/40 in DK favour. I see a lot more often a DK beating a Snake than viceversa.

 

[Ryusuta]

I agree, I consider DK a definite soft counter for Snake.

 

[SuSa]

That's really stage dependant.

55:45 DK IMO.

You're one of the few chars who can actually KO us at non-rediculous %'s.


But I see a lot more people on my side saying fitty fitty.


EDIT:

Fixed a typo/

 

[Kinzer]

When did MU ratios add up to 105 Susa/Havokk?

Is it even or in Donkey Bong's favor?

 

[SuSa]

55:45 DK.

They add up to 105 when I'm tired as hell and make a typo.

DK has killing power and range that rivals our own. But he still has to play smart and neither player can afford to make many mistakes.

 

[Ryusuta]

Don't forget his edge guarding.

 

[sasook]

That might explain why a lot of the links moved to AiB. I never really understood what happened there.

No question about it, Allisbrawl has done a lot more to keep up-to-date on this sort of thing.

There was a fight with the mods, so all the SWF Links moved to AiB.

Doesn't Oddler still go here?

Oddler was banned from the Link board entirely. He hates this place.

 

[.Marik]

I really wish people would look at this when evaluating the next Tier List. It looks pretty accurate. It shows Yoshi being Middle Tier, where he belongs, and that Falcon is so much better than Ganondorf.

Subscribed. I think the original post is wonderful in every aspect possible. Only thing is, I wish people wouldn't overestimate or underestimate their characters.

Ah well.

 

[jpl315]

funny how some characters like dk have much stronger rows than columns while characters like g&w are reversed. i guess dk mains overrate him a lot, while g&w mains underrate

 

[Rajam]

as dumb as it is, i feel like commenting on this tier list thing

if you are really going to make a solid list based solely on matchups, then you also have to take into account the importance of each matchup. it's a lot more crippling to a character's potential if they are disadvantaged to dedede than if they are disadvantaged to ike. additionally, exceptionally horrible matchups against top characters (like dk vs dedede or fox vs pikachu) have to be accounted for accordingly. each matchup should be weighted somehow, but that would be a difficult process and everything.

anyway tier lists take a LOT of factors into account. i don't think this should be called a tier list, just to avoid confusion. maybe "matchup ratio rankings" or something.

i apologize if i'm just reposting stuff that someone said earlier.

I know Tier Lists actually take into account many factors; my intention has never been to make a Tier List (because i don't know how to measure those factors), but instead just making a Ranking based on the average ratio and... i think putting Tier Names to the characters was a mistake; i just made it for fun... That's why i put Tier between " " ... Anyways, I will remove the name "Tier" from everything in the future and just put the word "Ranking", it seems to confuse people

Do not.

I repeat do not use the Link matchup thread for your ratios.

D3 absolutely demolishes Link. 1 grab and there goes a stock because WE CANT RECOVER.

Anything you recently updated for Link - remove. I'd much rathers you even use the AiB one over the one here.

The one here is in 'best' scenarios, such as getting a CP against the character or something. I haven't even bothered with the thread because it's that bad.

Which thread? One is very new and has very few ratios; the other is from December 2008 or something like that.... Also; what do you guys think? If all Link players moved to AiB, should i take the ratios from there? Are there other characters in special situations like this?

EDIT: There is a third thread for Link, from April 5th...

 

[Gates]

If all Link players moved to AiB, should i take the ratios from there?

Yes, you should.

 

[sasook]

None of the SWF Link matchup threads matter - they're all wrong (mostly).

Use the AiB one.

 

[Ryusuta]

Oddler was banned from the Link board entirely. He hates this place.

Wow, I really have to keep more up-to-date on this sort of thing.

 

[xDD-Master]

Could you please make a list that looks like this (It's from Melee make one for Brawl pls):

Original Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234220

 

[Ray_Kalm]

^ No, he can't.

 

[xDD-Master]

wtf shut up xD

he will make one just for me, I give him a cookie

 

[Gates]

Could you please make a list that looks like this (It's from Melee make one for Brawl pls):

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa108/worldjem7/meleematchup2.png

Original Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234220

Umm, it does look like that?

And how the **** is Peach vs. Fox 35:65 in Fox's favor? There's no way it's worse than 40:60, in fact I would argue that it's 45:55.

 

[Brinzy]

What, in Melee? That's about right, or around there.

 

[xDD-Master]

No this match-up chart is ordered by tier rank.

The Melee Match-Up Chart is ordered by the overall result of match-ups which is in my mind more neat.

 

[Gates]

He already has the rankings list for that reason. Besides, if he changes it he'll probably get a lot of people saying "omg why dis not liek teh tier list" since most people know it better.

 

[sasook]

So, just curious, since we're not done discussing all the matchups yet. When a new matchup ratio is made on our boards (or any board, for that matter), do we come to this thread and report it?

Example:

*somewhere in the future*

"The Link's just finished discussing Wolf. The ratio is ____"

Or do we need not bother?

 

[Jski]

Why are some of the things coming out to 105%?

 

[Steeler]

blahblahblahi'mahugesmartass

yes i know what a tier is, but a tier list in the context of the smash community always implies the rating of how well characters are expected to perform in tournaments, overall potential at a high level of play, etc. it is confusing to new players if this is also called a tier list, and unnecessary.

And why must it be accounted for exactly? What does "potential" have to do with this Match-up Tier List/Ranking? They don't take potential into account when they do match up numbers, obviously, I don't see what that has to do with anything.

two characters have the same overall matchup rating (or very close). tier-wise, the matchups are similar (both characters have slight disadvantages against the entire top tier, for example) but one character loses 80:20 or 90:10 to a top or high tier character due to a silly chaingrab or infinite, the other character does not have any ridiculous matchups like that. the latter character should have a better matchup rating because it is not as easy for that character to be counterpicked and secondaries are not as necessary. similarly, if a character has a terrible matchup against a low or bottom tier character for whatever reason, that should not affect the matchup rating as much as a high or top tier character would, simply because that matchup will not be as damaging in tournament play.

on the other side of the spectrum, if a normally below average character has bad matchups all over the tier list but fares surprisingly well against one of the top characters in the game (like if the yoshi/mk matchup were actually even, which it isn't) then that character should be ranked better than other characters with a similar overall rating. because that character is then more viable in tournament play, where the matchups against top tiers matter a LOT more than the ones vs the bottom half or two-thirds of the cast.

expanding even further, if one top tier character has **** matchups against a lot of characters (like 70:30s) but struggles against the majority of the other top characters, then they should fall accordingly. think gw in this instance. he's second on the list in the OP but that is mostly inflated by the fact that he has an advantage against nearly every single character in the bottom half or two thirds of the tier list, while gw himself doesn't do very well against the majority of top/high tier.

(when i refer to tiers in this post, i mean the current SBR tier list)

i suppose what i'm proposing here isn't what the OP's goal is with the ratings/rankings/tiers/potato list but i think it'd be very interesting and more relevant to tourney play.

 

[Ryusuta]

Why are some of the things coming out to 105%?

Better question: how many more people are going to not read the OP or the other six dozen times this question has been asked and answered?

Sorry for the snarky response, but the question is getting old.

 

[Affinity]

Man, we really need to hurry up and re-discuss all the match-ups in the MK match-up thread. Some of our outdated ratios are embarrassing lol

 

[Jski]

Better question: how many more people are going to not read the OP or the other six dozen times this question has been asked and answered?

Sorry for the snarky response, but the question is getting old.

A lot i would think its just a lot of pages to read though. Or is it in the first post and i missed it? I will look it back over.
On another note something that been bugging me is these numbers what are they? Are they generated by math that works out the odds of wining or are they just numbers bast off what ppl "think?" (i have a feeling this is too expanded in the first post i will read it over but for now i will post this question)
Thank you for your time.

 

[Ryusuta]

A lot i would think its just a lot of pages to read though. Or is it in the first post and i missed it? I will look it back over.

Alright. Each horizontal row is how the character's OWN BOARD views the match-up. Each vertical column is how the character's OPPONENT'S board views the match-up.

On another note something that been bugging me is these numbers what are they? Are they generated by math that works out the odds of wining or are they just numbers bast off what ppl "think?" (i have a feeling this is too expanded in the first post i will read it over but for now i will post this question)
Thank you for your time.

Essentially, it's more or less the probability of how many matches would be won by the character if a set of ten (or one-hundred) matches were played by people that have mastered both characters. 5:5 is neutral - no distinct advantages on either side. 6:4 means the character is a soft counter in the match and has a slight advantage. 7:3 or higher means the character is considered a hard counter and is at an extreme advantage. 10:0 means that it is statistically not feasible for the character to lose the match in a competitive situation.

 

[B!squick]

[skipped to the jist, will read the rest later]

(when i refer to tiers in this post, i mean the current SBR tier list)

i suppose what i'm proposing here isn't what the OP's goal is with the ratings/rankings/tiers/potato list but i think it'd be very interesting and more relevant to tourney play.

Okay then, so as not to confuse everyone then the OP should call it something like:

"A Rankings And Not A Tier List Of Overal Match Up Averages For Each Character"

Seriously though, he explains right there how he got everyone's position and just separated everyone a la Tier List style. Really it just comes down to how much people bother to read... which sadly continues to be not that much.
-_-

I guess a third list would be cool that's more based on points. Like, separate the match up numbers into different points (example: a 60:40 advatage match up would be 6 points), then multiply that by the opposing character's tier placement (example: out of 40 characters MK would be a multiple of 40 and so on). Or something like that. If that's what you suggested, I'm sorry ahead of time, lol.

EDIT: Just read the rest of your post Steeler, so yeah, just combine what you said with my points suggestion and you would have the makings of a great idea. :D

 

[xDD-Master]

He could just upload both kinds of charts...

 

[Gates]

He could just upload both kinds of charts...

He already has, that's what I've been saying.

Man, we really need to hurry up and re-discuss all the match-ups in the MK match-up thread. Some of our outdated ratios are embarrassing lol

Be sure to rediscuss Dedede. Most of the DDDBR has decided that it's 50:50.