Matchups Chart & Lists - Updated: 29/Oct

[Steeler]

hahah i'm proud to be in charge of the matchup discussion with the second least amount of matchups analyzed.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I think a few of your match ups don't match. You have 60-40 MK vs ROB in the MK row and 30-70 in the ROB row.

 

[Ryusuta]

I think a few of your match ups don't match. You have 60-40 MK vs ROB in the MK row and 30-70 in the ROB row.

Do people just not read the graph instructions at ALL? Let alone the countless times they've been repeated...?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Ike, Lucas and Jigglypuff are too cute, they think they have a slight advantage.

Tell people that when they discuss the matchups then. The jigglypuff boards asked for the bowser boards to come in and voice their opinion, and only Gheb and MrEh actually contributed anything, so they came to 55/45 after MrEhs (and to a lesser extent Ghebs, he left before the discussion was finished) contributions.

Don't critize other character boards opinions when you don't contribute anything to the contrary.

 

[Steeler]

hahah i'm proud to be in charge of the matchup discussion with the second least amount of matchups analyzed.

i lied, i just realized that the pt people have the MOST matchups discussed. technically.

lol.

 

[Toby.]

Great stuff. Very nice collection of data you've got here =)

It all came together a lot more quickly than I expected, tbh.

And **** us Pt mains needs to get moving on our matchups!

 

[Afropony]

I'm confused, the Pit boards say that it's 50-50 and the R.O.B. boards are currently discussing Pit and seem to be saying that it's also 50-50.

Why in your R.O.B. matchup does it say it's 60-40 his advantage?

 

[B!squick]

I'm confused, the Pit boards say that it's 50-50 and the R.O.B. boards are currently discussing Pit and seem to be saying that it's also 50-50.

Why in your R.O.B. matchup does it say it's 60-40 his advantage?

Let's check his clearly listed sources.

Durka, dur! There it is! Someone should listen to Smokey more.

 

[Afropony]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230591
This thread (The one in your sources) has no match-up imformation on Pit, it says absolutely nothing about it being a 60-40 advantage to R.O.B. where are you getting your imformation? shouldn't it be in the sources?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233143
This thread here has the R.O.B. boards discussing Pit. They clearly agree it is 50-50.


Sorry if I'm still doing something wrong but I don't know where you got your imformation if it isn't in your clearly labelled sources.

Could you someone please explain?

 

[Flayl]

Tell people that when they discuss the matchups then. The jigglypuff boards asked for the bowser boards to come in and voice their opinion, and only Gheb and MrEh actually contributed anything, so they came to 55/45 after MrEhs (and to a lesser extent Ghebs, he left before the discussion was finished) contributions.

Don't critize other character boards opinions when you don't contribute anything to the contrary.

The thing is, you can't convince people they're wrong about a matchup over a forum. Believe me, I've tried and eventually gave up. Oh, you can correct them when they say something that is way off, but if a character board believes it has the advantage, it will cling to that notion for it's dear life. Check the Lucas discussion for example.

What's happening here is that people who have NEVER played an even average Bowser are going "Yeah he's fat we counter him", and instead of being skeptic about it, the WHOLE BOARD agrees. What can I say, character boards are terrible even at theorycrafting.

I'm not saying Bowser is good, I'm saying 5 or 6 communities on this board really should not be bringing up numbers when it's clear they have no experience whatsoever.

 

[Skyshroud]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230591
This thread (The one in your sources) has no match-up imformation on Pit, it says absolutely nothing about it being a 60-40 advantage to R.O.B. where are you getting your imformation? shouldn't it be in the sources?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233143
This thread here has the R.O.B. boards discussing Pit. They clearly agree it is 50-50.


Sorry if I'm still doing something wrong but I don't know where you got your imformation if it isn't in your clearly labelled sources.

Could you someone please explain?

He changed the link to the new thread, but is probably keeping the old numbers until new ones are FINALIZED.

 

[Ryusuta]

The thing is, you can't convince people they're wrong about a matchup over a forum. Believe me, I've tried and eventually gave up. Oh, you can correct them when they say something that is way off, but if a character board believes it has the advantage, it will cling to that notion for it's dear life. Check the Lucas discussion for example.

You're wrong. The Yoshi boards were convinced that Yoshi went even with Meta Knight until they were set straight about the matchup. Most believe it's 40:60, now.

What's happening here is that people who have NEVER played an even average Bowser are going "Yeah he's fat we counter him", and instead of being skeptic about it, the WHOLE BOARD agrees.

Blatant strawman.

I'm not saying Bowser is good, I'm saying 5 or 6 communities on this board really should not be bringing up numbers when it's clear they have no experience whatsoever.

Yeah... no.

 

[Flayl]

You're wrong. The Yoshi boards were convinced that Yoshi went even with Meta Knight until they were set straight about the matchup. Most believe it's 40:60, now.

That would be because Yoshis' actually played Meta Knights.

Blatant strawman.

Nope, that's actually what happened. Check the ZSS discussion if you don't beleive me. I gain nothing by strawmanning.

 

[Ryusuta]

Nope, that's actually what happened. Check the ZSS discussion if you don't beleive me. I gain nothing by strawmanning.

Which one? None of the ZSS matchup threads have a summary (except for one that's from April of last year), and the Bowser board doesn't cite any discussion or have a summary on theirs.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

The thing is, you can't convince people they're wrong about a matchup over a forum. Believe me, I've tried and eventually gave up. Oh, you can correct them when they say something that is way off, but if a character board believes it has the advantage, it will cling to that notion for it's dear life. Check the Lucas discussion for example.

What's happening here is that people who have NEVER played an even average Bowser are going "Yeah he's fat we counter him", and instead of being skeptic about it, the WHOLE BOARD agrees. What can I say, character boards are terrible even at theorycrafting.

I'm not saying Bowser is good, I'm saying 5 or 6 communities on this board really should not be bringing up numbers when it's clear they have no experience whatsoever.

Yeah that does happen a lot, but it's not (or wasn't when I frequented the Jigs boards) a huge problem there. The zelda boards convinced us that it was worse than we thought as an example. You are totally right in general though, people usually label low teirs "LOL JIggs is liek zo lite, she just diez" Or "boozer iz zo slow and fat!". But unless a god lowteir mainer plays them , they won't admit anything.

Also, did you ever play a good Jiggs as bowser? I've never actually played the matchup, it's all just what we worked out on the boards to me

 

[Ryusuta]

Actually, it's funny that you mentioned the Jigglypuff forum in order to contradict him, because I noticed a LOT of off-topic flaming and trolling out of those guys before.

 

[Matador]

"How to read the chart: Each column of each character shows what the other boards say about that character; [top part, reading down] each row shows what a specific character's board says about the rest of the cast. [left part, reading across] For example: If you want to know what Bowser's board says about Ice Climbers, go Bowser's row, [left part] Ice Climbers' column. [top part] It shows a 25. That means Bowser's board says its a 25:75 disadvantage for Bowser. Now, if you want to know what Ice Climbers' Board says about Bowser, go to Ice Climbers' row,

​

Bowser's column. [top] It shows an 80, so Ice Climbers's board says its an 80:20 advantage for Ice Climbers. (As you see, there is a small difference in what each board is saying)"

Please people, it's not as complicated as you think it is. T_T​

Lmao, I'm so sorry. I mistook this for a matchup chart.​

 

[Ryusuta]

It is a match-up chart, but with two different perspectives instead of just one.

 

[Matador]

It is a match-up chart, but with two different perspectives instead of just one.

Sure it is.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Wow at:
Diddy Kong VS Bowser
Zamus VS Bowser
Luigi VS Bowser

Get a clue respective boards.

Ike, Lucas and Jigglypuff are too cute, they think they have a slight advantage.

Ike has a 0-60 on you. And you're like THE easiest character to catch in jabs. You're at least as slow as Ike is. You're possibly one of Ike's best match-ups. GTFO and read the boards.

 

[Ryusuta]

Sure it is.

Yeah, that sounded like a contradiction without a refutation.

 

[Flayl]

Ike has a 0-60 on you. And you're like THE easiest character to catch in jabs. You're at least as slow as Ike is. You're possibly one of Ike's best match-ups. GTFO and read the boards.

Bowser has a chaingrab on Ike that can finish with a FTilt and that works at any %. WHOOPS? And lol at bold. Whatever, I'm certianly not going to discuss the matchup with someone like you.

edit: Check this out: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6599541&postcount=1589

Something you wanted me to not find out Ike boy?

 

[B!squick]

Ike has a 0-60 on you. And you're like THE easiest character to catch in jabs. You're at least as slow as Ike is. You're possibly one of Ike's best match-ups. GTFO and read the boards.

Really?! Woah! Let's actually do some research instead of just hanging our mouths open and letting the stupid dribble out like the special kid at the back of the class.

First and foremost, see Flayl's post.

Secondly, a Bowser player who lets IKE get close enough to Jab him deserves to have his Bowser license revoked. It has terrible range and proper spacing means Ike should never be close enough to Jab him.

Now let's compare the frame data!

Character | Jab |Dash A|DTilt|FTilt|UTilt| DSma| FSma| USma| NAir| DAir| FAir| UAir| BAir| NSpe| DSpe| FSpe| USpe
Bowser    |   6 |   10 |  10 |  10 |   8 |  14 |  26 |  16 |   8 |  14 |   8 |  16 |   9 |  23 |  11 |   8 |   6
Ike       |   3 |   18 |  16 |  17 |  13 |  13 |  29 |  25 |  15 |  16 |  18 |  15 |   7 |  30 |     |  19 |

Wowzer! It seems like the hitboxes on most of Bowsers attacks come out sooner.

Gee, I wonder who's faster in the air...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952
Will you look at that! It's Bowser!

I wonder who's faster on the ground now...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152360
I guess Ike DOES walk faster...

Now let's check and see if Ike has an easier match up than Bowser...
*insert the obvious here*

 

[Ryusuta]

Image macros go a long way toward undermining an otherwise intelligent argument.

 

[B!squick]

Should I remove the image then? I found it extremely appropriate, which is why I made it.

 

[Ryusuta]

I personally think it would be a good idea. Throwing around macros doesn't add any heft to your statements, really, and detracts from very valid points being made.

 

[MrEh]

Ike has a 0-60 on you.

Yes yes, the chaingrab.

I've never seen this done in an actual match btw, so why don't you start? ^^

 

[B!squick]

Yes yes, the chaingrab.

I've never seen this done in an actual match btw, so why don't you start? ^^

Read Flayl's post. UpB makes it only an up to 42% grab. And if Bowser's already there, it don't work.

 

[Matador]

Yeah, that sounded like a contradiction without a refutation.

Mainly because going back and forth about it would be a waste of time. At least this way I get my point across without mundane debate over semantics.

 

[Gates]

HEY GUYS YOU KNOW WHAT'S AWESOME? OFF TOPIC FLAME WARS.

You know how Ankoku hates it when people get off topic and ***** about things because he has to sort through a sea of crap to find something important? Well, this is kind of the same thing. If you guys are having disagreements about specific matchups, you should take it to those character boards to work it out. NOT HERE.

kthx

 

[B!squick]

Mainly because going back and forth about it would be a waste of time. At least this way I get my point across without mundane debate over semantics.

What semantics? It's obviously a match up chart. >.>

 

[Meru.]

Ice Climbers - Ganondorf is a 100-0? o.o Ok...

 

[Dr. H. Killngr]

Interesting match-ups. More accurate than some of the other ones I have seen.

Good job.

 

[GwJ]

If ICs v. Ganon is a 0-100 matchup, shouldn't the DDD v. DK missing matchup also be a 0-100? Same for all the other standing infinite characters.

 

[Negi Kun1]

Great work on the matchups, I've been wondering about ZSS matchups. And compared to others, she has a fairly decent row.

I myself trust matchups more than tournament placings for a tier list. Thanks for the useful chart.

 

[Ryusuta]

If ICs v. Ganon is a 0-100 matchup, shouldn't the DDD v. DK missing matchup also be a 0-100? Same for all the other standing infinite characters.

It's not the fact that ICs can infinite Ganon that gives them 100-0 on him. Strictly speaking, they can 0-death virtually everyone. The difference is that there is no realistic way for Ganon to NOT be infinited or otherwise totally destroyed. He can't space them, because he has to be up close. He doesn't have a viable approach, and he's pretty much at an impossible disadvantage in every conceivable scenario.

This as opposed to DeDeDe/DK, in which Donkey Kong as reasonable spacing abilities and has the potential to stay out of DeDeDe's grab range while still mounting an offensive. It's not a GOOD match-up, but it's not as bad as Ganon/ICs.

 

[Mecakoto]

I think Ganon should have a 1-99. At least then it won't make me cry as much since I was planning on playing him for a while.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What about shiek vs ganon? Shiek brings out the chain, nothing ganon can do either.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

bottom right corner is too manly.

 

[Ryusuta]

What about shiek vs ganon? Shiek brings out the chain, nothing ganon can do either.

I guess he's 5-95 on Sheik. My guess, I suppose, is the lack of an infinite. Not that it matters much.

Poor Ganon.

Poor should-REALLY-be-the-one-at-the-bottom-of-the-tier-list Ganon.