Matchups Chart & Lists - Updated: 29/Oct

[Sam3231]

What's so special about shiek and ic that they have a 95 TO 5 advantage over ganon?

 

[Kage Me]

Ice Climbers completely shut down the efficiency of Flame Choke, because there's two of them. If Ganondorf grabs one, the other can easily counter with a charged smash. Ice Blocks can force Ganondorf to approach, while Blizzard can stop most (if not all) of his approaches, and him being tall and heavy makes him very easy to chaingrab, while his slow, laggy attacks also mean easy grabs. Due to his poor recovery (especially the second jump), d-tilt is a very good kill move, even better than most of their smashes. In fact, the only reason he even got the 5 was because if he can seperate the Climbers, Nana will die. Ganondorf is surprisingly good at edgeguarding the Climbers, since all his attacks can knock them out of Squall Hammer, but it's not very likely that he'll get them off the stage...

 

[B!squick]

And then you have to factor in stages. I'm sure it's more balanced on, say, Norfair.

 

[choknater]

Sheik's matchup with Ganon is actually 140:-40

 

[Gates]

I'm going to be doing a bunch of updates in the Dedede thread today. Just a heads up. nvm, only the Diddy matchup changed.

You're doing a really good job of managing this.

 

[BentoBox]

Hai Gaiz

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7257950#post7257950

If I had known this thread existed @_@ Yours looks nicer too, but I believe compiling everything on Excel would be much more useful... for statistical purposes. Anyways, it is a real time drainer so I'll let you do your thing and tabulate everything for you, if you don't mind~

 

[Zozefup]

Why is this not a sticky yet? This is one of the most useful threads I've ever read. Especially since i play main many characters, i view this thread almost daily.

 

[Xyro77]

please update the front page with the correct samus board match-up thread

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222783

the old one is incorrect.

 

[Ryusuta]

I think a lot of boards a a little overly sure of themselves to be declaring themselves even matchups with Meta Knight, especially the Wario ones.

 

[Zozefup]

Why does Sheik counter Gannon so bad? I can't find any videos of it on youtube. When I go Sheik VS Gannon it feels like 70-30, not 95-5.

 

[-Ran]

Her chain prevents Ganon from being able to approach, so once she has a percent over him, she can camp a match away. I'm pretty sure her Tilt locks take a toll on him rather fast as well.

 

[Kage Me]

IC match-up thread

Ness has been put at 50:50.

 

[@HomE]

Why does Sheik counter Gannon so bad? I can't find any videos of it on youtube. When I go Sheik VS Gannon it feels like 70-30, not 95-5.

If the Sheik knows the match-up and is at the same skill level as the Ganon then the Ganon has really no options the sheik cant easily counter...

And it was already said, Tilt lock, needles, and chain and can hurt Ganon...

 

[TP]

Sheik's moveset was designed with Ganon in mind. Every move perfectly counters Ganon. There are also no stages that help the situation. If someone goes Sheik against me in match 1 of a set, I will just suicide three times so the opponent can't learn my playstyle.

 

[Rajam]

please update the front page with the correct samus board match-up thread

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222783

the old one is incorrect.

Updated; i'm leaving the old thread yet because there are only a few ratios in the official topic; if you still want the backup thread deleted (and their ratios), just tell me

IC match-up thread

Ness has been put at 50:50.

Updated

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Sheik's moveset was designed with Ganon in mind. Every move perfectly counters Ganon. There are also no stages that help the situation. If someone goes Sheik against me in match 1 of a set, I will just suicide three times so the opponent can't learn my playstyle.

Best. Stratagey. Ever.

 

[Rajam]

A Match-up "Tier List" was added to the first post. This is a brief description of the List:

This is a Ranking based only on match-ups. First number is the average ratio on what that character says about the rest; second number is the average ratio on what the other boards say about that specific character; last is the ponderated average ratio of both, and what finally determines the ranking.
Important: For every character, if he/she has a ratio for Pokemon Trainer, then the ratios for Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are ignored. If there is no ratio for PT but there are for the Pokemons, then the ratio taken for the calculations of the ranking is just the sum of the three divided by 3 (the average), and its treated as one character (like Pokemon Trainer)

That List maybe inaccurate now because of how many ratios still don't exist in the chart; As ratios are put and actualized, the list will become accurate as well.

 

[Ryusuta]

Wow... I love the new "tier list." It's actually some real food for thought in a lot of cases.

 

[Flayl]

Wow at:
Diddy Kong VS Bowser
Zamus VS Bowser
Luigi VS Bowser

Get a clue respective boards.

Ike, Lucas and Jigglypuff are too cute, they think they have a slight advantage.

 

[Ryusuta]

I think someone is really overselling Bowser a little.

 

[JOE!]

bowser is a tank, that is all

anywho: Gannon vs IC has it as 0 for ganon, but 95 for ICs.....whered the 5 go?

 

[DTP]

bowser is a tank, that is all

anywho: Gannon vs IC has it as 0 for ganon, but 95 for ICs.....whered the 5 go?

I was literally just looking at that 5 minutes ago haha

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The 5 is up for grabs about if a pro ganon really ever could win against a pro IC or not xD

But still, this list is nice. A couple of months ago it wasn't even half way done. Now it looks like it could be completed in another month or so.

 

[Flayl]

I think someone is really overselling Bowser a little.

Overselling?

 

[Morrigan]

Wow... I love the new "tier list." It's actually some real food for thought in a lot of cases.

I agree. Match-up tier list is interesting.
-subscribes-

 

[Pez55]

I love this chart!

Very helpful

 

[Ryusuta]

bowser is a tank, that is all

anywho: Gannon vs IC has it as 0 for ganon, but 95 for ICs.....whered the 5 go?

The horizontal score is how the character board rated the match for their own character. The vertical scores are what the character's OPPONENTS rated the matchup.

The Ganon boards rated Ganon a 00:100 matchup against the Ice Climbers, while Ice Climbers rated it 95:5.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike, Lucas and Jigglypuff are too cute, they think they have a slight advantage.

We do. CG FTW. And Kirk is actually back, so you can ask him about it.

 

[B!squick]

Nice to see you back and updating everything Rajam. Match up ranking is epic. I say ranking simply because you didn't separate it into tiers.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Lol @ ganny's 0:100 MU against IC's

 

[Bowser King]

We do. CG FTW. And Kirk is actually back, so you can ask him about it.

Most people I've talked to have yet to be able to pull it off (not saying it's not possible).

Is there a video of ike pulling it of on bowser where the bowser is actually trying to get out (using fortress etc.)?

-Bowser King

 

[Ryusuta]

Lol @ ganny's 0:100 MU against IC's

This really isn't so bad when you think about it. There were a couple of 0:100 matchups in Melee.

 

[B!squick]

Suggestion for tiers based on as of now data (tier names need not be used):


Top
-MK

Near Top
-G&W
-Marth

Bottom Top
-Wario

Top Mid
-Olimar
-Falco
-Snake
-Climbers
-R.O.B.

Mid
-Kirby
-ZSS
-Peach
-Lucario
-DDD
-Pit

Bottom Mid
-Pikachu
-Wolf
-Diddy

Top Bottom
-Tink
-Weegee
-DK
-ZELDA/shiek
-SHIEK/zelda
-Yoshi

Bottom
-Ness
-Mario

Very Bottom
-PT
-Squirtle
-Lucas
-Zard
-Fox
-Ike

Steak
-Sonic

Not Steak
-Samus
-Ivysaur
-Jigglypuff

Auto Win
-Link
-Bowser
-Faptain Calcon
-Dorf


Also, for clearification you may want to label who's done and who's not and whatnot.

 

[Ryusuta]

Well, the problem is that match-up in and of themselves aren't a full measure of a character's potential.

For instance, Bowser has a lot of bad match-ups, but no one in their right mind would claim that Link is better than him (unless they're a hardcore fan of the character).

And Snake as anything BUT second-best is completely laughable.

 

[B!squick]

Well, the problem is that match-up in and of themselves aren't a full measure of a character's potential.

For instance, Bowser has a lot of bad match-ups, but no one in their right mind would claim that Link is better than him (unless they're a hardcore fan of the character).

And Snake as anything BUT second-best is completely laughable.

Is that in response to my post? O.o I just separated the match up ranking into tiers, I really don't know what you're getting at. :/

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Matchups really are all that matter for a character's worth (with the note that the matchup can change based on stage rules, infinite bans, planking bans, and other such things), but you have to consider that some matchups matter more than others (does it really matter if you only 80-20 beat Ganondorf instead of 90-10?), and certain combinations of matchups might be more desirable even among important matchups (notably, do you combine well with secondaries, and are you redundant with another better character's strengths?).

I also think you have to be able and willing to look beyond the current metagame when discussing "best". Snake does the 2nd best in the current metagame; there's no denying it. However, I don't think saying he's not the actual second best is "laughable". I could definitely see someone in his right mind claiming Link is better than Bowser. I could even see a perfectly rational person asserting that Meta Knight needs to move down a few slots. It's all about which direction you expect the game to go as it moves closer to being fully understood; I think reasonable people can disagree a lot on what it looks like at that point.

 

[Cold Fusion]

This really isn't so bad when you think about it. There were a couple of 0:100 matchups in Melee.

What were the matchups?

 

[Matador]

I may be reading the chart wrong or simply missing something, but some of your MK matchups are inconsistent.

For example, he has evens vs Wario and ICs on some parts of the board, but on others (along the top) they're his adv.

 

[B!squick]

"How to read the chart: Each column of each character shows what the other boards say about that character; [top part, reading down] each row shows what a specific character's board says about the rest of the cast. [left part, reading across] For example: If you want to know what Bowser's board says about Ice Climbers, go Bowser's row, [left part] Ice Climbers' column. [top part] It shows a 25. That means Bowser's board says its a 25:75 disadvantage for Bowser. Now, if you want to know what Ice Climbers' Board says about Bowser, go to Ice Climbers' row,

​

Bowser's column. [top] It shows an 80, so Ice Climbers's board says its an 80:20 advantage for Ice Climbers. (As you see, there is a small difference in what each board is saying)"

Please people, it's not as complicated as you think it is. T_T​

 

[Ryusuta]

What were the matchups?

Mewtwo vs. Marth and Bowser vs. Sheik.

There are also quite a few 10:90 match-ups, as well.

Edit: Oh, yeah. Pichu vs. Ice Climbers is 0:100, too.