Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs MK

[adumbrodeus]

But that victory is utterly useless. It's like saying that Zelda has a dress and MK doesn't.

Don't forget, Zelda has high heels and MK doesn't!

It's not just shuttle loop, it's ftilt, tornado. Heck, ftilt is more then enough to pretty much counter Zelda's air game, and it's safer then shuttle loop.

 

[Bandit]

Don't forget, Zelda has high heels and MK doesn't!

It's not just shuttle loop, it's ftilt, tornado. Heck, ftilt is more then enough to pretty much counter Zelda's air game, and it's safer then shuttle loop.

You forgot sparkles. If MK had sparkles, he would've been banned the day he came out.

 

[KayLo!]

Don't forget, Zelda has high heels and MK doesn't!

Wut. She wears boots.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

Wut. She wears boots.

She does have some high heels, though, if you remember Melee. I don't think MK does. ^_^

And, really, this is NOT a winnable matchup for Zelda at higher levels. I play against Judge all the time, and I have to PUNISH him for every minute mistake he makes just to hope to keep up. Granted, it makes him hate playing against Zelda, but I'm more comfortable playing against a Snake than I am a Meta.

Now THAT should be saying something. ^_^;;;

 

[mountain_tiger]

How are you supposed to effectively communicate on a forum if you have terrible grammar?

As long as you can understand what someone's saying, surely it doesn't really matter? His grammar doesn't seem THAT bad.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You forgot sparkles. If MK had sparkles, he would've been banned the day he came out.

YES!!! Sparkles = life.

Wut. She wears boots.

She "has" not "wears", see:

She does have some high heels, though, if you remember Melee. I don't think MK does. ^_^

She's also got a bow and arrow, does MK have that?

As long as you can understand what someone's saying, surely it doesn't really matter? His grammar doesn't seem THAT bad.

Depends, sometimes it's impossible to tell what he's saying, other times it's not so bad.

 

[KayLo!]

MK has speed, a bad *** mask, and a cape that turns into wings. Pretty sure that beats some high heels and a bow and arrow that can only shoot in a completely straight horizontal line. x.o

 

[adumbrodeus]

MK has speed, a bad *** mask, and a cape that turns into wings. Pretty sure that beats some high heels and a bow and arrow that can only shoot in a completely straight horizontal line. x.o

Ummm, an entire kingdom, incredible wisdom, random magical s***, a pretty dress, and sparkles too. Plus, her bow's better then that, she just only uses it like that in smash.


Zelda's got more bling, therefore Zelda>MK

 

[MrEh]

MK has a ship. A big ship.

And minions. Zelda has no minions.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Ummmm.....Zelda has Link for a minion?

 

[KayLo!]

MK can turn into a ****ing tornado and can stay invisible/invincible for however long he wants.

..........Or at least until your fingers get tired.

 

[adumbrodeus]

MK has a ship. A big ship.

And minions. Zelda has no minions.

Minions, zelda needs no ****ing minions, she's got an entire KINGDOM to do her bidding.

MK can turn into a ****ing tornado and can stay invisible/invincible for however long he wants.

..........Or at least until your fingers get tired.

16 minutes is all you need.

 

[KayLo!]

Minions, zelda needs no ****ing minions, she's got an entire KINGDOM to do her bidding.

And yet she still manages to get kidnapped every game.

 

[GodAtHand]

And yet she still manages to get kidnapped every game.

She only lets that happen because she knows (in her infinite wisdom) it is the only way everything will work out okay.

 

[zeldspazz]

What the **** happened in here!

I miss all the fun while Im at school

 

[GreyFox86]

She only lets that happen because she knows (in her infinite wisdom) it is the only way everything will work out okay.

No, she gets captured cause she knows, in your words (in her infinite wisdom), the guy after her is a total bad *** and way more stronger than the entire Kingdom of Hyrule.

 

[zeldspazz]

Since I lost against Charby's MK at BNI3, who ended up spamming Nado like hell,

I've been looking for so many ways to counter the tornado, whether MK is coming from above, from below, etc...

In the end, I'm happy to see that Zelda has really good options against it :





- We all know that Fsmash and Ftilt can beat Nadoes but it requires a REALLY strict timing for it to hit correctly, in fact most of the time Fsmash and Nado both will hit at the same time, which makes you deal only 1% to MK and prevents you from landing any other hits.

On top of that, MK can predict it because of its strict timing and you might get punished if during his nado he waits for the Fsmash or Ftilt to end..

Some other moves such as grabs or utilts can counter Nado but here again it's not worth it : it's much too hard to do and it's too easy to punish.

Dash attacks and Din are both good ways to counter Nado but only during its first frames (Or, in Din's case, when it explodes above Nado. Still Din is too slow at middle/close range)



- However, 3 other moves deal more easily with nadoes than Fsmash/Ftilts : Usmash, Dtilt and Dsmash. Here the timing is 15 times easier, but it all depends on how MK is approaching with his nado, if he's coming from above or at ground level. Even if Usmash is slow, if you perform a hyphen Usmash there is really no problem. It always beats approaches from above, which is a good opportunity to take a stock off MK.

Down smashes counter approaches from below but the timing is not as easy as with Down tilts. However, Down tilts don't hit MK, they merely cancel Tornado, which allows you to grab him or to lock him with more down tilts (depending on some factors). You can use mindgames and force MK to use Nado from above or from below :

when he has about 100%, MK wants to avoid getting hit by Up smashes, so most of the time he'll use his nadoes at ground level : get ready to use down smashes.

Conversely, when you see he's using Nado at 100% or more, just crouch : usually when MK sees you're crouching, he's going to try to come from above,

so perform a hyphen Usmash (away from him) at the last moment.



- BUT, the BEST way to deal with nado IS *....drum rolls....* Jaaaaab .. (omg it sounds funny ...) "Omg wtf Jab ... you mad JuJux ..." NO I'M FUC*ING SERIOUS @_@ .... The timing is NOT hard, you can punish both approaches, it has good range and priority, you CAN'T be punished if he tries to take advantage with his nado of Jab's few cooldown frames (you can shield or even punish it with buffered hyphen up smashes or buffered up tilts, using mindgames) and besides, it paves the way for COMBOS !! Don't forget you have some combo tools with jab at middle/low%. But if both jab and nado hit at the same time, you have a GUARANTEED combo at any % since MK remains EXACTLY where he was hit, the only difference being that he is more stunned than you are !! You can combo with Buffered QDA / Hyphen Up smashes / other jabs (lol) or, thanks to MK's bad air speed, you can perform Fsmashes, grabs, ect.

I thought it would be nice to post this here, since it doesnt only pretain to doubles. Maybe itll bump this matchup from 20:80 to 21:79 T.T lol

 

[MrEh]

Or to cut out the BS...Nado ***** Zelda.


Every character has something that goes through the Nado. (usually multiple somethings actually) Walls of text seem amazing, until we realize that most of those options are unviable. It's like telling a Ness main to stop the Nado with PK Flash. Will it work? Probably, but that's not the point.

20:80 to 21:79

You could make it 10-90 and that wouldn't be inaccurate either.

 

[zeldspazz]

I didnt post it because it was a wall of text, I posted it because Jujux took the time to test it, and has to do with the MK matchup, sometihng of which we had not yet known or tried.

 

[GreyFox86]

But thinking about it, if it does stop the Nado, then you can use it maybe 2 or 3 times till the MK main learns either not to use Nado in random formations like such or get you to bait the Jab.

Remember, her Jab isn't the best around in terms of startup and cool down. I would really love to see this work so it can be viable for the Zelda metagame against MK, seeing how she doesn't have many options against him to begin with. =/

 

[JuJux]

@Zeldspazz : Thank you.

Remember, her Jab isn't the best around in terms of startup and cool down.

* Startup: 1 - 10
* Hitbox: 11, 13, 15 (3 hits)
* Cooldown / IASA: 12 - 24, 25 (IASA)

No, it is. btw Kataefi, there is an error in cooldown's frames, isn't it ? (Cooldown begin at frame 16 and not 12)

 

[Kataefi]

Thanks for pointing that out man I'll change it now

 

[GreyFox86]

No, it is. btw Kataefi, there is an error in cooldown's frames, isn't it ? (Cooldown begin at frame 16 and not 12)

Goes to show I don't know her Frames all that well. I really need to study them up. =/

 

[Tekk]

Or to cut out the BS...Nado ***** Zelda.


Every character has something that goes through the Nado. (usually multiple somethings actually) Walls of text seem amazing, until we realize that most of those options are unviable. It's like telling a Ness main to stop the Nado with PK Flash. Will it work? Probably, but that's not the point.




You could make it 10-90 and that wouldn't be inaccurate either.

lmao you're a jerk man
Jujux TESTED it out in ACTUAL matches.
and guess what ?I think he knows HIS main A LITTLE BIT more than you do.
I played jujux for like 1 year and a half, and when he discovers how to **** you up, that's not just theorical...


And how dare you compare Ness' PK flash to Zelda's JAB ?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Or to cut out the BS...Nado ***** Zelda.


Every character has something that goes through the Nado. (usually multiple somethings actually) Walls of text seem amazing, until we realize that most of those options are unviable. It's like telling a Ness main to stop the Nado with PK Flash. Will it work? Probably, but that's not the point.

MrEh, stop trolling, when it comes to viable options against nado, assuming it goes through pretty much everywhere (which I believe it does) jab is a pretty viable option, it's got relatively high start-up, but it's only 10 frames anyway, but low cooldown so it's difficult to punish even if baited (go through the hitbox area in 1 frame, I don't think so).


Nado doesn't exactly have a short start-up time (comes out frame 12), so there goes any realistic approach with nado, he's gotta be inside the hitbox.


He's better off zoning her out, then approaching with nado.


Now, in the air, that's a different story.

 

[Kataefi]

Or to cut out the BS...

Stop this attitude and stop undermining everyone who isn't from your region. It's a message board. If it butthurts you that much that people aren't talking about stuff to your standards then go out there and make a statement, be productive, absolutely nothing is stopping you.

And you haven't sent me that PM.

edit: @Tekk - apologies Tekk but try not to give add any fuel to the fire.

 

[Tekk]

Okayokay, sorry >_>

 

[GreyFox86]

@Kata: Eh is from Hawaii, you know this. DM is also from Hawaii, you know this. All MrEh does is play a little bit of Zelda and watch DM and base his info from that. His answers are very VERY blunt but most is true. He is a King Koopa main so all the inside things about Zelda, he either doesn't know THAT well or he discusses it with DM.

@JuJux: Do you have a vid of the Jab out doing 'nado? Not that I don't believe you but I would like to see this in action. I just think its crazy to Jab at 'nado but that's just me and nothing being able to play an active MK. =/

 

[Tekk]

He may know a little bit about zelda's metagame, but that doesnt allow him to always call BS jujux' new stuff about zelda's matchups that ACTUALLY make that character better.

Nado doesn't **** Zelda THAT MUCH, you can ask Neath, a MK who often plays with Jujux and is really good (went 7th at BNI3), since Jujux discovered that "little" thing, he NEVER tries to nado him again.

So, MrEh, please, PLEASE talk about something you REALLY know about.

 

[JuJux]

@JuJux: Do you have a vid of the Jab out doing 'nado? Not that I don't believe you but I would like to see this in action. I just think its crazy to Jab at 'nado but that's just me and nothing being able to play an active MK. =/

Well ... No, I don't. I practiced it 1 week ago during 2 hours with my friend

Spoiler

(who plays MK and finished 7th out of 105 at BNI3)

, and it was only for my personal experience we've done this and I just wanted to share it in the end ._.

edit : ****, mind**** by Tekk >.>;;

 

[Meru.]

And how dare you compare Ness' PK flash to Zelda's JAB ?

This.

Really, Jujux post is golden. Very good job on it.

 

[KayLo!]

Poor JuJux..... all he did was share some helpful info, and he gets a ****storm for it, lol.

Anyways, I trust that JuJux wouldn't've posted that without first testing it in actual matches, and it sounds like he has (tested it, that is). Whether or not it's the best anti-nado strategy ever created, it's good info to have..... I don't see why people feel the need to troll or hate on it.

Nado isn't even that big of a deal with Zelda. By the time it's even partially stale, it doesn't do that much damage at all, and Zelda can jump out of it very easily compared to other characters. The only major disadvantage is that it puts you in the air, but you can usually land/FW far away before MK can get to you due to nado's cooldown.

Or just shield it if you don't want to try jabbing. *shrug*

Thanks again for the info, JuJux. Ignore all the arguing. <3

 

[sniperworm]

Disjointed hitboxes + transcendant priority = sad nado

I would've thought that it'd be pretty obvious that the tornado is a bad approach against Zelda.

 

[Darkmusician]

@Kata: Eh is from Hawaii, you know this. DM is also from Hawaii, you know this. All MrEh does is play a little bit of Zelda and watch DM and base his info from that. His answers are very VERY blunt but most is true. He is a King Koopa main so all the inside things about Zelda, he either doesn't know THAT well or he discusses it with DM.

@JuJux: Do you have a vid of the Jab out doing 'nado? Not that I don't believe you but I would like to see this in action. I just think its crazy to Jab at 'nado but that's just me and nothing being able to play an active MK. =/

Chad is Chad. You just have to take what he says with a grain of salt.

This doesn't mean that I approve of the way he goes about posting. After posting on forums for several years I've learned to accept how people post and deal with it.
Chad I know how you feel on this topic but I highly suggest you just let it go cause I don't think it's worth it.

And actually most of the technical information regarding Zelda Chad and I both get from sniperworm. Chad and I have short discussions about Zelda and sometimes (if we're at Taco Bell) about life. But all of the specific information comes from prof sniperworms research. He is like a small encyclopedia on Brawl, especially Zelda/Sheik. Practicing with and talking sniperworm has impacted my growth in Smash the most since Merc went back to GA.

 

[Kataefi]

Good responses! We all have common interests here so there should be no tension amongst us.



DM I actually need to catch you on the chat at some point about stuff so I'll be in a few hours!

 

[GreyFox86]

Disjointed hitboxes + transcendant priority = sad nado

I would've thought that it'd be pretty obvious that the tornado is a bad approach against Zelda.

Oh snap, sniperworm I haven't seen you post in what seems like forever. :X

@DM: That's why I say he is blunt about it. Lol, I kind of ignore his post and I kinda don't, depends on whether I read what he actually posts or not. Lol, I just laugh to myself cause despite what he puts, it always seem like he puts the overall judgment on Zelda and leaves the middleman out.

 

[Darkmusician]

Oh snap, sniperworm I haven't seen you post in what seems like forever. :X

@DM: That's why I say he is blunt about it. Lol, I kind of ignore his post and I kinda don't, depends on whether I read what he actually posts or not. Lol, I just laugh to myself cause despite what he puts, it always seem like he puts the overall judgment on Zelda and leaves the middleman out.

Very true. There are moments when I laugh because of the truth behind the words.

And everyone could see much more of sniperworm if they came to Hawaii for a tournament. :D

I will be on the xat chat for most of today as I have nothing to do except finish uploading videos.

 

[Ruler]

since MK doesnt have much long range, i usually dins fire, then either fsmash , grab, or naryus when they get close. however on the edge...... zelda gets pwned by MK. the best you can do is love jump.

 

[adumbrodeus]

since MK doesnt have much long range, i usually dins fire, then either fsmash , grab, or naryus when they get close. however on the edge...... zelda gets pwned by MK. the best you can do is love jump.

Why in god's name would you be using Din's fire against anyone, except as a punisher of some sort (generally better options, but whatever) or in doubles? Ok, and baiting an airdodge as they're coming down very very very rarely.


Seriously, that move is rancid, it's made slightly better against MK for one reason, he can't outprioritize with any move that comes out quickly enough to do it on reaction. At the same time, he's fast enough that it's pretty much irrelevant anyway.

 

[GodAtHand]

What's is with the random Zelda players on this board lately? This is like the 4th time something like this has happened in the last month or so.

On topic: I usually just fsmash him out of the nado, but most of the time we both take like 1% dmg and go flying in opposite direction. I will def try out this jab idea.