Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs MK

[MrEh]

I haven't had trouble with Meta Knight.

Then you need to play better people.

 

[NinjaLink]

Hey guys. Miss me? xD
I have new zelda vids but i cant upload due to technical issues so i'll try to help out in the meantime, etc

 

[pepiux]

I'd like to point out that I've managed to Nayru's Love out of MK's nado after Di'ing up.

 

[MrEh]

I'd like to point out that I've managed to Nayru's Love out of MK's nado after Di'ing up.

Lots of things beat the Nado from the top. Doesn't make Naryu's any more viable. Or the Nado any less ****.

 

[-Mars-]

Nado blows.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Using Nayru's against MK is a terrible idea. If he shields it or it misses all together, he has almost 30 frames of coooldown lag to punish however he likes, which often involves Zelda getting knocked off-stage, which involves her getting gimped.

Don't use Nayru's vs MK. Too much risk for too little reward.

 

[GreyFox86]

Or can take a better approach to this and just don't go Zelda against MK, like I do.

>_>

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Using Nayru's against MK is a terrible idea. If he shields it or it misses all together, he has almost 30 frames of coooldown lag to punish however he likes, which often involves Zelda getting knocked off-stage, which involves her getting gimped.

Don't use Nayru's vs MK. Too much risk for too little reward.

I wouldn't say that it is terrible. Yeah you will get punished if you miss the move however that shouldn't discourage you from the move. I mean if Zelda had any safe move on MK shield or she wouldn't get punished on a whiff attack wouldn't that make the match up better for Zelda?

@Grey Fox that really doesn't help people who are trying to learn the Zelda MK match up does it ?

 

[GreyFox86]

@AL: Oh I'm sorry here let me help those who don't know about this MU.

20-80 in MK's favor.

Anything laggy that Zelda does will result in you getting punished.

Your only few option OoS are, Dtilt, Nair, and Roll away.

Don't follow a MK in pursuit. Don't spam Din's, or Nayru's.

I could go on and on about this but I don't have to cause the odds of this being a victory for Zelda is very slim. I've played against Infinity's and Dojo's MK and I get ***** by them all the time.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@AL: Oh I'm sorry here let me help those who don't know about this MU.

20-80 in MK's favor.

Anything laggy that Zelda does will result in you getting punished.

Your only few option OoS are, Dtilt, Nair, and Roll away.

Don't follow a MK in pursuit. Don't spam Din's, or Nayru's.

I could go on and on about this but I don't have to cause the odds of this being a victory for Zelda is very slim. I've played against Infinity's and Dojo's MK and I get ***** by them all the time.

Aren't dtilt and nair her better options OoS regardless of who the character is. No offense but there is a huge gap between you and the guys you play against so it may not be your Zelda that is the reason why you lose.

 

[MrEh]

AL, I don't think you're in any position to question someone's skill.

Just saying.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

AL, I don't think you're in any position to question someone's skill.

Just saying.

I'm not questioning anyone skill but to say he's anywhere near the level of dojo or Infinity would be hard to believe for me.

Just saying.

 

[MrEh]

but to say he's anywhere near the level of dojo or Infinity would be hard to believe for me.

He never said that he was. And yes, that is questioning his skill.

When a person plays against some of the best players in the state, their opinion is generally more valid versus someone who doesn't even go to tournaments at all.

 

[-Mars-]

true facts.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

He never said that he was. And yes, that is questioning his skill.

When a person plays against some of the best players in the state, their opinion is generally more valid versus someone who doesn't even go to tournaments at all.

I go to tournaments just not very often I've been to four tournaments so far. Haven't been to one since the summertime. Just playing against the top level players in his state isn't enough how often does he play against them? Is it a daily basis once every 3 months. Does him playing against dojo one time ( not saying thats the amount of his experience) Mean that his opinion on the much is more valid. Now with that said I don't know how much he's played dojo or anything. However, how can he get a realistic ideal of the match up when they aren't in even the same zip code in terms of skill level. If you think that's me doubting his skill level then that's you. I'm just saying he's not on the same skill level as dojo. So because he isn't playing at the same level of dojo how could he possibly give an accurate description of the match up?

@mars meat ride moar pl0x.

 

[-Mars-]

I won't make stooopid posts.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I won't make stooopid posts.

whip it out.

 

[Bandit]

MK Match-up in a nut shell:

- Dtilt stops MK dash approaches
- Usmash stops MK glide approaches
- Proper shielding/Timing of Fsmash stop MK tornado approach

Do not randomly Usmash against MK.
Follow every Fsmash with Dtilt because he's going to rush in.
Dsmash is your friend. He's light and you can harass him off stage with dins.
Dair beats shuttle loop.
Jab, Ftilt, Usmash spamming, Naryu's Love all have no use in this match-up. They are too slow or too punishable.
Bair is your friend if you want to LK MK.
Dtilt lock to Dsmash is your friend.

:bandit:

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

MK Match-up in a nut shell:

- Dtilt stops MK dash approaches
- Usmash stops MK glide approaches
- Proper shielding/Timing of Fsmash stop MK tornado approach

Do not randomly Usmash against MK.
Follow every Fsmash with Dtilt because he's going to rush in.
Dsmash is your friend. He's light and you can harass him off stage with dins.
Dair beats shuttle loop.
Jab, Ftilt, Usmash spamming, Naryu's Love all have no use in this match-up. They are too slow or too punishable.
Bair is your friend if you want to LK MK.
Dtilt lock to Dsmash is your friend.

:bandit:

The bold is the only problem I have with your suggestion. That's basically playing on auto-pilot. Instead you should fsmash to see if their rush in then next time you dtilt after an fsmash.

Also pivot grab should be his dash approach.

 

[Bandit]

If you wait to see if he will rush in, it is too late. He already grabbed you.

If he dashes in and past you then pivot grabs, failure on your for not keeping him out. Dtilt, again stops this.

None of it is fool proof.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If you wait to see if he will rush in, it is too late. He already grabbed you.

If he dashes in and past you then pivot grabs, failure on your for not keeping him out. Dtilt, again stops this.

None of it is fool proof.

Well one you're assuming that the MK is dashing in. You fsmash get his response then you act accordingly the next time you fsmash. You don't start playing on auto pilot. Also any time MK dashes in he loses out to a pivot grab.

 

[Bandit]

You realize by fsmashing and "getting his response" will lead to massive damage and punishment, right? The point is to force the MK to do things he is not normally used to doing. MK's will camp your defense, knowing your smashes and dtilt will beat them and wait to rush in. They could just tornado towards you, but, if you practice it, tornado should not hurt you (bad).

Zelda's pivot grab takes forever.

From the Fairy Fountain Research Thread:

Standard Grab

Startup: 1 - 11
Hitbox: 12 - 13
Cooldown / IASA: 14 - 29, 30 (IASA)

Dash Grab

Startup: 1 - 10
Hitbox: 11 - 12
Cooldown / IASA: 13 - 39, 40 (IASA)

Pivot Grab

Startup: 1 - 13
Hitbox: 14 - 15
Cooldown / IASA: 16 - 35, 36 (IASA)

-----

Dash Grab is the quickest.
Standing Grab has the least cooldown.

If you are going to attempt to out grab range him, you will be punished if you don't land the grab. It's why Zelda only has grab game on the offensive side of her game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You realize by fsmashing and "getting his response" will lead to massive damage and punishment, right? The point is to force the MK to do things he is not normally used to doing. MK's will camp your defense, knowing your smashes and dtilt will beat them and wait to rush in. They could just tornado towards you, but, if you practice it, tornado should not hurt you (bad).

Zelda's pivot grab takes forever.

From the Fairy Fountain Research Thread:

Standard Grab

Startup: 1 - 11
Hitbox: 12 - 13
Cooldown / IASA: 14 - 29, 30 (IASA)

Dash Grab

Startup: 1 - 10
Hitbox: 11 - 12
Cooldown / IASA: 13 - 39, 40 (IASA)

Pivot Grab

Startup: 1 - 13
Hitbox: 14 - 15
Cooldown / IASA: 16 - 35, 36 (IASA)

-----

Dash Grab is the quickest.
Standing Grab has the least cooldown.

If you are going to attempt to out grab range him, you will be punished if you don't land the grab. It's why Zelda only has grab game on the offensive side of her game.

Man your so far out there it's a shame,

 

[Bandit]

Man your so far out there it's a shame,

With this post, you are officially and will forever be on my block list.

I advise any other tournament Zeldas and knowledgeable people of her character to do the same because AL is a lost cause.

 

[KayLo!]

Welcome to the right side, Bandit. <3

Unfortunately, I was told not to put people on ignore the last time I had him on my block list, so I have to manually avert my eyes.

@MK stuff: The one benefit Zelda has in this MU that most characters don't is that tornado and glide attacks don't really affect her much. Fsmash beats tornado pretty easily, and even if you get caught in it, 9 times out of 10 you can pop/jump out the top. Sucks when you footstool it, though, which happens a lot..... you'll be stuck high in the air.

His glide gets beaten by Din's (long range when he's recovering) or usmash if he tries to glide attack you.

Bandit's right that dair beats Shuttle Loop. If he's underneath you trying to up b you as you're recovering from up high, there's a chance that he'll up b right into a spike. It requires good prediction and timing on your part and is by no means guaranteed, but most of my spikes on MKs have been from me dairing them out of their Shuttle Loop.

I want to test how her electric moves might affect the invincibility frames on his up b. With Pika, if you time a dair to hit during the IFs, you can make him fly off the screen and fall to his death..... has something to do with the glitch that happens when electric moves interact with IFs. Probably won't be useful at all for Zelda, but I'm curious anyways. =X

Most MKs are surprised that our dsmash is equally as fast as theirs. It really doesn't help much since his is still better, but since a lot of MKs like to rush right in your face, it's the only grounded GTFO move we have. Just don't miss.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Welcome to the right side, Bandit. <3

Unfortunately, I was told not to put people on ignore the last time I had him on my block list, so I have to manually avert my eyes.

I never saw the point in putting people on ignore. There's always a small chance they'll say something useful (plus you can manually ignore them anyway...)

I want to test how her electric moves might affect the invincibility frames on his up b. With Pika, if you time a dair to hit during the IFs, you can make him fly off the screen and fall to his death..... has something to do with the glitch that happens when electric moves interact with IFs. Probably won't be useful at all for Zelda, but I'm curious anyways. =X

Sounds interesting... Probably won't help the MU much, mind you, but it does sound like something worth looking at.

Most MKs are surprised that our dsmash is equally as fast as theirs. It really doesn't help much since his is still better, but since a lot of MKs like to rush right in your face, it's the only grounded GTFO move we have. Just don't miss.[/COLOR]

Actually it's one frame faster. Not like that makes a major difference, mind you. If it had better range then maybe...

 

[GreyFox86]

I go to tournaments just not very often I've been to four tournaments so far. Haven't been to one since the summertime. Just playing against the top level players in his state isn't enough how often does he play against them? Is it a daily basis once every 3 months. Does him playing against dojo one time ( not saying thats the amount of his experience) Mean that his opinion on the much is more valid. Now with that said I don't know how much he's played dojo or anything. However, how can he get a realistic ideal of the match up when they aren't in even the same zip code in terms of skill level. If you think that's me doubting his skill level then that's you. I'm just saying he's not on the same skill level as dojo. So because he isn't playing at the same level of dojo how could he possibly give an accurate description of the match up?

@mars meat ride moar pl0x.

Auto fail.

You know close to nothing on how players can change between summer to winter.

I've never once said that I was at the level of Dojo or Infinity, how ever I've played against their MK's more than once and even played M2K's MK when he came down for WHOBO. And guess what, Dojo, M2K, and Infinity are way better now than they were 6 months ago. Don't you dare question me on my skill or my knowledge on MK as Zelda cause she can't win against a really good and competent MK.

And to throw this in there, when was the last time you played against a big name MK as Zelda and won? Last I checked Dojo and M2K are both National level MK's.

I think I'm done here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Auto fail.

You know close to nothing on how players can change between summer to winter.

I've never once said that I was at the level of Dojo or Infinity, how ever I've played against their MK's more than once and even played M2K's MK when he came down for WHOBO. And guess what, Dojo, M2K, and Infinity are way better now than they were 6 months ago. Don't you dare question me on my skill or my knowledge on MK as Zelda cause she can't win against a really good and competent MK.

And to throw this in there, when was the last time you played against a big name MK as Zelda and won? Last I checked Dojo and M2K are both National level MK's.

I think I'm done here.

This is what you sound like to me ZOMG I got *** ***** by national ranked players therefore Zelda v MK most be 80-20. Don't refute my point because I've played these guys even though they're way better than me. Good job buddy way to prove your point. Simplay playing against them isn't enough. DOjo and them have improved these past six months have you?

 

[GreyFox86]

This is what you sound like to me ZOMG I got *** ***** by national ranked players therefore Zelda v MK most be 80-20. Don't refute my point because I've played these guys even though they're way better than me. Good job buddy way to prove your point. Simplay playing against them isn't enough. DOjo and them have improved these past six months have you?

First off its simply. Learn to spell.

Second, I'm not going to say that I've gotten better cause the last few tourneys I've been to over the months, my results have not been good. Results always show who is doing good and who isn't. I don't need to explain myself to you or anyone else here on this board about why I'm not getting better with Zelda in Singles.

Which brings me back to what I said before I even posted in this thread again.

Or can take a better approach to this and just don't go Zelda against MK, like I do.

>_>

Maybe once you get your head out your *** and pay attention to what others are saying, you would know that there is nothing you can do about this matchup other than either lose or pick someone else.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

First off its simply. Learn to spell.

Second, I'm not going to say that I've gotten better cause the last few tourneys I've been to over the months, my results have not been good. Results always show who is doing good and who isn't. I don't need to explain myself to you or anyone else here on this board about why I'm not getting better with Zelda in Singles.

Which brings me back to what I said before I even posted in this thread again.

I just asked if you've improved in the past 6 months since you yourself said that smashers during the summer aren't the same as the winter. IDK what your results are but if you feel as though you aren't improving what do you think is prevent you from progressing? Maybe it's the mind state you currently have. Also I often have a lot of typos or spelling errors I never bother to re read any of my post.

Maybe once you get your head out your *** and pay attention to what others are saying, you would know that there is nothing you can do about this matchup other than either lose or pick someone else.

But once again how is you suggesting switching to a different character supposed to help people who play Zelda learn the Zelda MK match up. I'm pretty sure I've said that you. But of course you took offense to that and replied sarcastically dropped the names of the mK player you play as if that matters.

 

[-Mars-]

How are you supposed to effectively communicate on a forum if you have terrible grammar?

 

[GreyFox86]

I just asked if you've improved in the past 6 months since you yourself said that smashers during the summer aren't the same as the winter. IDK what your results are but if you feel as though you aren't improving what do you think is prevent you from progressing? Maybe it's the mind state you currently have. Also I often have a lot of typos or spelling errors I never bother to re read any of my post.



But once again how is you suggesting switching to a different character supposed to help people who play Zelda learn the Zelda MK match up. I'm pretty sure I've said that you. But of course you took offense to that and replied sarcastically dropped the names of the mK player you play as if that matters.

Red: Again I don't need to explain myself as to why I'm not doing well in singles. Doubles is another story.

Yellow: And I'm pretty sure I gave you a list as to what you can do against MK. And yes it does matter cause I have yet to lose to a MK main that isn't one of the top players in city/state as Zelda.

Like I said, I can go on and on about this but I'm gonna get an infraction for arguing like this cause there is no point around it. Unless you have something that will kill MK in 3 hits or less that no one has EVER seen before then please be my guest and show me right this instant. Otherwise this match-up will not change. No matter how many times you look at this, Zelda is going to lose the MU 80-20.

 

[Bandit]

Just ignore him GreyFox. He never adds anything to a discussion. He simply calls out your integrity while ignoring the fact that he's a scrub.

discussion/

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Red: Again I don't need to explain myself as to why I'm not doing well in singles. Doubles is another story.

Yellow: And I'm pretty sure I gave you a list as to what you can do against MK. And yes it does matter cause I have yet to lose to a MK main that isn't one of the top players in city/state as Zelda.

Like I said, I can go on and on about this but I'm gonna get an infraction for arguing like this cause there is no point around it. Unless you have something that will kill MK in 3 hits or less that no one has EVER seen before then please be my guest and show me right this instant. Otherwise this match-up will not change. No matter how many times you look at this, Zelda is going to lose the MU 80-20.

So if that's the case how can you exclaim the match up to be 80-20 when the only MK's you lose to are Dojo Iffinity and M2K. That doesn't seem like an 80-20 match up to me.

 

[GreyFox86]

So if that's the case how can you exclaim the match up to be 80-20 when the only MK's you lose to are Dojo Iffinity and M2K. That doesn't seem like an 80-20 match up to me.

I'm gonna try to explain this the best way I can so that way even you can understand.

EVERYTHING YOU DO THAT LAGS HE CAN PUNISH!!!

You can't follow MK at all. He is faster than you in every way possible.

The only way you can punish him is after he Shuttle Loops (the peak of the loop), Dash Attack, Failed Grab attempt, and Usmash (if your lucky).


Look I'm done arguing with you cause I really can not explain this MU any simpler than this. If you still don't get it by now that Zelda loses this MU then I'm sorry but I'm done with this.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm gonna try to explain this the best way I can so that way even you can understand.

EVERYTHING YOU DO THAT LAGS HE CAN PUNISH!!!

You can't follow MK at all. He is faster than you in every way possible.

The only way you can punish him is after he Shuttle Loops (the peak of the loop), Dash Attack, Failed Grab attempt, and Usmash (if your lucky).


Look I'm done arguing with you cause I really can not explain this MU any simpler than this. If you still don't get it by now that Zelda loses this MU then I'm sorry but I'm done with this.

Zelda air speed> MK air speed.

 

[-Mars-]

MK shuttle loop>Zelda in the air

 

[MrEh]

Zelda air speed> MK air speed.

Moot point. MK is slower then 85% of the cast in the air, yet still ***** everyone in the air.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Moot point. MK is slower then 85% of the cast in the air, yet still ***** everyone in the air.

I know this but I like to acknowledge the tiny victories Zelda has over MK no mater how insignificant.

 

[MrEh]

I know this but I like to acknowledge the tiny victories Zelda has over MK no mater how insignificant.

But that victory is utterly useless. It's like saying that Zelda has a dress and MK doesn't.