Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Game and Watch

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Game and Watch
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Zelda vs Game & Watch


- What to know about this matchup...
​

• Be careful of his Bair. This is a difficult move to get by and Zelda has no means of properly punishing it. If you get caught, SDI up and behind him to punish with a potential sweetspot bair. Concentrate on escaping the move as fast as possible to minimise damage dealt.
  

• Predict the bair and go for a punish. The bair is a committed and lingering approach. If you can predict when he will bair, you can jump over and dair him.
  

• Tech his Dthrow. His Dthrow leads to a Dsmash or a jab > regrab. You can avoid all of this by teching. To tech, you need to hold down shield just before he finishes with the throw animation. The tech will be buffered. Zelda has a long enough tech roll to escape. Always perform this action no matter what throw he does as the risk of a Dsmash or regab is very dangerous.
  

• He has excellent charge release smashes. This means when he charges a smash, the moment he releases the move practically comes out immediately. He can kill you very early in this way. If you see him charging smashes, wait it out. Play patiently and don't be around him at the time. Attempt to punish, but be very careful not to trade.
  

• Dtilts lock him at 40% onwards. They are most effective at 50% onwards. Punish any whiff he makes with dtilt locks. He struggles to escape properly due to his weight and size and you can build a vast amount of damage particularly on trip, where can guarantee a grab for extra damage. Any damage you can get against him allows you to stay competitive, as you kill him just as early as he kills you.

- Useful Information...
​

• Bait responses with Din's. He has the bucket to absorb din's, but you can play around with it to bait the bucket and keep him guessing.

• Usmash, Uair and Utilt beat the key. Be careful however, because his key has a strange hitbox. You need good timing to be able to catch him out of the key. Uair is more disjointed and will always beat it out everytime. Usmash and Utilt tend to sway.
  

 

[Brinzy]

I personally feel as if this match-up is near-impossible on paper but probably just very, very hard to win in actuality. While he shuts down a lot of what Zelda can do given proper timing and whatnot, I feel as if Zelda does have the attack speed to get in on him before his attacks come out, and her somewhat comparable range helps her out a bit as well. However, this match-up is probably better discussed as to what happens mostly in theory and leave actual results to those who are playing this actual match-up (very good pure Zeldas only).

I think this one requires a lot of patience, but getting knocked off the stage is asking for death.

 

[MrEh]

Bair>Zelda

There's not much else to say. Your projectile sucks, and he kills you early. He's ungimpable and you're gimptastic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if ever a matchup existed where you really really need to be patient and exploit ANY oportunity that he gives us to get an upper hand.

 

[KayLo!]

This matchup gives me a headache. It's mostly running around trying not to get hit, waiting for G&W to make a mistake you can punish.... and those openings don't come very often when you're playing a good opponent.

If you try to go on the offensive, you'll get completely wrecked (even more so than offensive Zelda usually would). G&W pretty much has an answer to anything you can do, and.... yeah. I could go on, but everyone else summed it up within three posts, lol.

L2tech dthrow.

 

[MrEh]

L2counterpick MK

Fixed that for you. ^^

 

[KayLo!]

Fixed that for you. ^^

Lol, thanks. I knew I was missing something.

 

[Veggie123]

lol don't spotdodge against GaW, a good majority of his moves have freakishly long lasting hitboxes

Also, I've been trying to mess around with the DI while getting hit with his bair and I feel like Zelda can sweetspot a bair if you DI behind GaW (this may have been said before). Though I haven't been able to really practice it due to the lack of competitive GaW users in IL. Does anyone know if it's possible to do it, and consistently at that?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I suppose it's important to mention what advantages we DO have.

Since G&W is zelda **** to the highest degree, one should note that he probably won't be entirely used to the matchup. And while that doesn't matter in the sense that he's STILL got the upper hand just by playing the way he normally plays.

He'll catch on quick, but G&Ws normally LOVE their dair. It's nice to know that our Usmash beats it out and so does Uair. Both moves can kill game and watch pretty early. Iunno about Utilt. I imagine it'd probably trade or win out, but would be hella hard to time.


I feel my best odds come from stages with platforms since they somewhat limit his air-to-ground game, though we give him the benefit of getting under us more easily. At least it gives us a better shot at lightning kicks or Uairs....

All in all, still an awful matchup.

 

[goodkid]

Dang were moving soo fast.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

lol don't spotdodge against GaW, a good majority of his moves have freakishly long lasting hitboxes

One exception: his Bair. Shield the beginning and spotdodge in the end. If timed right you won´t get shieldpoked and can retaliate.

 

[sniperworm]

G&W, Zelda's worst matchup theoretically.

Make sure you SDI the Bair to minimize the amount of damage you take (you may also get a free hit depending on how fast you can get out and where you end up, usually a Bair). Up angled Ftilt can beat out his Bair if you space it perfectly and he comes in at the correct angle (my friend was tripping out when I first discovered this). Make sure you tilt your shield against the Bair so you don't get shieldpoked.

Take sure you tech the Dthrow unless you like eating sourspotted Dsmash. Zelda's tech roll is fast enough (and long enough) where he'll have almost no chance of followups if you tech. If he grabs you on a platform, well, at least you have 2 more stock. However, most G&W figure out that Dthrow is pretty poor in this matchup and will start using Uthrow after you demonstrate that you can tech the Dthrow.

Being above G&W is a nightmare. Nair juggles Zelda like crazy and eats airdodges, Uair helps to refresh his moves, keeps you airborne, and baits airdodges. UpB comes out quickly and he can continue the assault afterward (no special fall). Plus he can utilize his devastating smashes if you attempt to airdodge into the ground.

Offstage is even worse. Fair is absurdly powerful both in damage and knockback. You also have absolutely no defense against Nair and Bair in this position, should you not be in kill range yet. The wind hitbox from his Uair and UpB totally destroy Zelda's recovery. His Dair can spike, be aware of that.

G&W also has access to 2 attacks that are basically OHKO moves: DownB (kills at 0% and does 60% even if you somehow manage to tech something and survive) and SideB (which will probably kill at about 15-20%). Don't ever fill his bucket all the way. Using Din's is okay occasionally as long as you can punish him for using the bucket, but never ever let him fill it all the way. Judgment 9's are always a possibility, so G&W is never too far behind to win.

One exception: his Bair. Shield the beginning and spotdodge in the end. If timed right you won´t get shieldpoked and can retaliate.

Most G&W will retreat the Bair if you block it...

 

[MrEh]

Just counterpick MK and save yourself the trouble.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

G&W, Zelda's worst matchup theoretically.

Well... considering we're SOL unless he GIVES us openings to exploit... yeah.

Using Din's is okay occasionally as long as you can punish him for using the bucket, but never ever let him fill it all the way.

yeah. it's actually a GOOD thing about the bucket. Game and watches may not know when it's bessed to bucket and when they should just avoid it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I actually like this match up. Zelda is disadvantaged here though. Avoid the turtle and F-smash. Also when he is off the edge, use Din's, but aim it away. He should use the bucket and he will continue use it while below stage. Din his awesome recovery.

 

[AzNfinesse]

One exception: his Bair. Shield the beginning and spotdodge in the end. If timed right you won´t get shieldpoked and can retaliate.

you're much better off shielding till the end (especially the last one) and shieldgrabbing during the end lag.

yeah. it's actually a GOOD thing about the bucket. Game and watches may not know when it's bessed to bucket and when they should just avoid it.

there is ONE exception to this rule of not filling the bucket. there was one time i decided to use zelda against one of the G&W users here. i was figuring out his game and decided to fill up his bucket once per stock. the trick is to get the third one in before you're going to go for the kill move. just be sure to avoid the setup for the bucket kill (either a grab, a jab, or a bair in some cases). if you time it right and get off the kill move, G&W won't have the bucket brake, thus, win.

I play G&W too, and the one thing i find annoying with zelda is that G&W is extremely light. Yes, G&W has moves that destroy zelda's game, but i have to be careful, because one bad move and more than likely i'm going to die from an LK, Fsmash, Usmash, or Uair. Yea...it's probably zelda's hardest matchup, but it's not an impossible matchup.

The trick to beating G&W is to force him to approach and retaliating on the endlag of his aerial approaches:

- Bair approach: Wait until the endlag and shieldgrab punish.

- Fair approach: Shield the initial attack and punish the huge amount of endlag with Usmash/Fsmash

- Nair apporach: Very little endlag, but you can punish with Dsmash or shieldgrab at the end of the nair animation.

Also, G&W can be dtilt locked fairly early (i believe it's around 30%) being the 3rd lightest character in the game. So use that to your advantage when playing your defensive game. An OoS Dtilt will work wonders in this matchup.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

you're much better off shielding till the end (especially the last one) and shieldgrabbing during the end lag.

The problem is that his Bair can shieldpoke if Zelda doesn´t have her shield at full size. Spotdodging the last few hits prevents this.

Also:

Most G&W will retreat the Bair if you block it...

This often prevents shieldgrabbing, but you might still get something like D-tilt in if you´re lucky.

 

[sniperworm]

there is ONE exception to this rule of not filling the bucket. there was one time i decided to use zelda against one of the G&W users here. i was figuring out his game and decided to fill up his bucket once per stock. the trick is to get the third one in before you're going to go for the kill move. just be sure to avoid the setup for the bucket kill (either a grab, a jab, or a bair in some cases). if you time it right and get off the kill move, G&W won't have the bucket brake, thus, win.

This is a rather absurd strategy to be honest. If G&W has a full bucket and is at high percents on his last stock (aka a situation where he needs to bucket brake to survive), guess what, he's going to throw that load at you the first chance he gets. There's no reason to wait for a setup when the move is too fast to react to and is safe on block. If you give him a free chance to win the game, he'll take that chance.

The only time he'd save it in that situation is if he's losing by a significant amount, in which case, there'd be no reason for you to resort to such a desperate tactic. Of course if he's not on his last stock, then it goes without saying that filling up the bucket is a bad idea (because he'll accept his death, kill you, then kill you at low percents with the bucket)

 

[MrEh]

Giving Gdub ammo is ********.

That is all.

 

[KayLo!]

The problem is that his Bair can shieldpoke if Zelda doesn´t have her shield at full size. Spotdodging the last few hits prevents this.

Be careful with spotdodging. It doesn't come out instantly (I think Zelda's IFs come out on frame 2 or 3, I can't remember), so you could still get hit during that frame -- or two? -- of vulnerability.

I dunno what G&W's bair frames are like, but with a multihit move like that, it seems likely that you're taking a risk by spotdodging. (However, if your shield is getting too small, I guess it's worth it.....? I just try to keep my shield full.)

 

[sniperworm]

Be careful with spotdodging. It doesn't come out instantly (I think Zelda's IFs come out on frame 2 or 3, I can't remember), so you could still get hit during that frame -- or two? -- of vulnerability.

I dunno what G&W's bair frames are like, but with a multihit move like that, it seems likely that you're taking a risk by spotdodging. (However, if your shield is getting too small, I guess it's worth it.....? I just try to keep my shield full.)

I've been going around looking for frame data from the various character boards today, so I'll just add in that G&W's Bair hits on frames 10, 13, 16, 19, and 22 (there's also an additional hitbox if he lands between frame 10 and 39). Each hitbox (including the landing one) is out for 2 frames if anyone cares (probably not).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think the fact that this matchup is theoretically impossible should be pretty telling.

If G&W doesn't make enough mistakes, then it's esentially impossible to win no matter HOW well you play as zelda. THAT is the sad reality of this matchup.

 

[Kataefi]

At this stage in the game we should be consistently DIing and SDIing GnW's bair. Even holding the control stick up gets you out and you take a minimal 6%. Simply stay away from him and look for any openings possible imo because we can't afford to be taking any damage from him whatsoever.

At the same time, 40% and over is a point in which you can use dtilt safely. To back this up I'll repost this from hotgarbage:

Dtilt Advantage at 50%

+7: ZZS; Kirby; Meta Knight; Fox; Pikachu; G&W;
+8: Jigglypuff

We actually get 7 frames at 50%, 40% is enough to start strings and combos. It's tricky to land, but if you do land a dtilt, make very good use of it to tack on the damage. He will most likely kill first, but we've still got a good comeback game with usmash and other fresh killmoves if we can somehow leave him in kill percents as we die =D

That's my rather generic 2cents!

As for the bair... it's such a good movee. Zelda really hasn't got much going for her here. However, she can din's the bair if the centre if targeted towards his back, not if the centre if on his body. It must be on his back to take effect and win.

I need good strategies if I'm to summarise this thread up. Bair > Zelda, so how are we going to deal with it realistically aside from just standing there looking pretty?

 

[sniperworm]

As for the bair... it's such a good movee. Zelda really hasn't got much going for her here. However, she can din's the bair if the centre if targeted towards his back, not if the centre if on his body. It must be on his back to take effect and win.

His Bair is good, but it's not invincible. Remember that you can Ftilt through his Bair if he spaces it incorrectly. One thing DM used against me (when I was using GDub, lol) was he predicted the Bair, jumped over me, and Daired me out of the Bair.

As far as Din's goes, you have to make sure that the explosion overlaps his hurtbox, but not his hitbox. A fully charged Din's would probably beat his Bair as well, but that'll never happen (lol, bucket much).

You can also use the Bair against G&W once you learn their habits. When I'm really desperate for a kill, sometimes I just run into a Bair that they're approaching with, SDI through it, and Bair them during the landing hitbox/lag. You can also condition G&W into thinking that you won't challenge him before he Bairs, so later in the match you can preempt him with a running Fair for a kill. It also may be possible to use a running Usmash on G&W before he Bairs, depending on how that particular player uses the Bair.

I need good strategies if I'm to summarise this thread up. Bair > Zelda, so how are we going to deal with it realistically aside from just standing there looking pretty?

Is standing there looking pretty not a viable option? If it's not, then you could try moving around in an attempt to disrupt his spacing and hopefully get him to chase you with a Bair that he can't successfully retreat (in which case you could block and punish).

But I really like standing there looking pretty...

 

[KayLo!]

Is standing there looking pretty not a viable option?

Running away and looking pretty is better.

 

[MrEh]

I need good strategies if I'm to summarise this thread up.

Here's one.

Use Meta Knight.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Running away and looking pretty is better.

walking away and looking pretty is just divine though.

also MrEh's summary says it all

 

[GodAtHand]

@ MrEh

Don't quote yourself, you're not that cool. (-.-)

 

[MrEh]

Don't quote yourself, you're not that cool. (-.-)

That's not being cool.

That's trolling. lol

 

[<π]

Sheik? I mean... needles?

The more I think about it the more I realize zelda has no options at any point in this match up. None.

 

[sniperworm]

The more I think about it the more I realize zelda has no options at any point in this match up. None.

Congratulations, you now understand the Zelda vs G&W matchup. Her only viable strategy is to move around hoping he makes mistakes, lol.

 

[<π]

lol even moving puts her in a bad spot...

wait a second... that isn't funny at all

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Congratulations, you now understand the Zelda vs G&W matchup. Her only viable strategy is to move around hoping he makes mistakes, lol.

and, realistically, the game and watch WILL make mistakes, which is the only thing that keeps this from being an impossible matchup.

 

[MrEh]

and, realistically, the game and watch WILL make mistakes, which is the only thing that keeps this from being an impossible matchup.

Realistically, Zelda will make more mistakes because Gdub is constantly pressuring her more then Zelda is pressuring him.


This is an impossible matchup. If you are winning, then Game and Watch has either tripped 50 times in the match, or you are significantly more skilled.

I would go as far to say that the matchup is 25-75.

 

[KayLo!]

This is an impossible matchup. If you are winning, then Game and Watch has either tripped 50 times in the match, or you are significantly more skilled.

I would go as far to say that the matchup is 25-75.

Heh, I played a G&W on wifi recently (yesterday? day before?) and won a few times.

Then I told him to try using bair more.

I don't need to finish the story.

 

[MrEh]

Heh, I played a G&W on wifi recently (yesterday? day before?) and won a few times.

Then I told him to try using bair more.

I don't need to finish the story.

This is all we need to know.

Spoiler

I lol'ed ^^

 

[sniperworm]

Heh, I played a G&W on wifi recently (yesterday? day before?) and won a few times.

Then I told him to try using bair more.

I don't need to finish the story.

That ... sucks.

This is an impossible matchup. If you are winning, then Game and Watch has either tripped 50 times in the match, or you are significantly more skilled.

Come on 50 trips...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This is an impossible matchup. ...

I would go as far to say that the matchup is 25-75.

impossible is Ganondorf vs. sheik or Ice Climbers.

Zelda vs. G&W is just really really really bad.

 

[Kataefi]

Any stages that he does badly on? Let's discuss them.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Like we've established, his air-to-ground game wrecks us... I do better on stages where there are more platforms to act as sheilds against his falling aerials.