Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Dedede

[powuh_of_PIE]

Guys, this is probably our easiest matchup among the top tiers. Yes, Zelda's a horrible character (though not Link/Ganon horrible lol), every Zelda main should recognize this. This does not in any way warrant pessimism, however. I am sick and tired of seeing mountains of negativity piled high on every MU thread on every board that isn't clearly an advantaged MU.

So let's talk positives.

Air game - When approaching an aerial DDD, approach from the front when possible. His fastest option here is a Fair, and with a touch of prediction you can punish/outspeed with Nair/Fair/techchase a landing. Do not approach DDD's rear, Bair is pretty tough here.

Ground game - Fsmash is your safest option for pressure, but overuse will lead to DDDs dodging and punishing. Vary the timing of your Fsmash, charge it partially some of the time to keep him guessing. If it works, it will mindgame the **** out of them for the rest of the match.

Long-range - Din's has more range, so with enough distance you can force DDD to get into his Waddle Dee range. Once he's here, take advantage of the lag on this move to move a little closer yourself, possibly via use of short Din's Glides and clever Farore's mindgames. (Don't get fancy with this one, easy as **** to punish.) It is possible to take advantage of DDD's fat *** on certain stages (Delfino works well IIRC) to camp him by moving around him a lot, but this won't last forever and is prone to mistakes.

Offstage - Try to force him to recover low (Dsmash, Nayru's, Dair, Dtilt spike maybe? lol) so's you can punish that High Jump. You will definitely appreciate how magically delicious it is to Uair that thing. Mmm.

When recovering, you will have to change up how you recover from time to time cuz DDD has tons of ways to edgeguard. There's really not much we can do in this position. This is going to be the toughest part of the match, sorry.

Before you jump on me with all your feral claws and what not, I am aware that these measures are anything but foolproof. However, I believe them to be a good part of our best bet against our best top tier matchup.

Final ratio: 55-45 DDD

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Both of the characters in question cause lots of damage with their punishing options. However, the difference between the two is this:

• DDD can always punish Zelda somehow, be it with grab or Ftilt or whatever.
• Zelda's chances of punishing DDD are limited, but whenever she gets an opening she's going to hit him with something that's great for her spacing or can kill at later percents (kick, smash attack etc)

It's highly dependent which one is better.

 

[Veggie123]

Zelda is very easy to juggle, you're definitely right about that. I hate to bring movement speed into the equation, but the only thing D3 is fast at is falling. Even though she's pretty floaty and slow herself, the fact that they're both waay slow actually gives her a few opportunities to get away depending on how large the stage is. D3's juggle and aircamp game definitely works best once Zelda is off stage, that's where she's forced to land in a more obvious location where D3 can prep his next move. But they're not always going to be fighting in that kind of scenario, with most of the game playing out on stage.

He can't really weave in and out aerially to avoid being punished if Zelda's on the ground, like Wario or Jigglypuff can. So it's more like a hit or get hit kind of trade off. The best way for him to avoid taking damage is to jump higher and try to bait an attack then punish with a fast fall bair/dair and hope it hits.

Since they're both bait and punish characters, a lot of the MU revolves around who messes up first.

D3s best punishes are his grab and his bair in the air, they're both good no doubt, but that's all he has. (maybe dtilt, but I think most D3s will opt for grabbing) Everything else is too slow, lacks range (utilt), or not worth punishing with. I'm not saying D3 can't punish with any of his other strong moves like u/d/fsmash or even dash attack, but they're harder to pull off. Dthrow is good for tech chasing, but it's not guaranteed to connect since it requires prediction and in some cases stage placement.

Zelda has more of a variety when it comes to her punish game. And when I take punishing into account, I consider start up to be one of the most important aspects of determining if such and such is a good move to punish with and a lot of Zelda's moves are good potential candidates since most of their flaws lie in cooldown. Dsmash/usmash/bair/fair are all fast and have the added benefit of being kill moves. It's pretty much almost guaranteed that one of them will be fresh at all times. Grabs are good for getting D3 off stage and dtilt is good for setting up other moves.

I mean, yeah D3 does only have 2 good punishers and realistically speaking, that's pretty much all he needs. But I think Zelda has a better chance at killing D3 early than D3 killing Zelda early. At which point he can kill because bair is fresh again, haha.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

@Mikey: That ledge stuff's pretty interesting. What about certain stages where DDD can hit you through the ledge? Stages like Halberd, Delfino, Brinstar, etc. where he can uair/fair you through the edge..... if Zelda's standing at this ideal spot you're talking about, could he potentially hit you through the stage and **** up your spacing? Or will you be too far/able to counter in some way?

It's always a possibility that he'll hit you, especially if you're not expecting him to do it. Both come with risks, though. Doing a uair or fair could give Zelda a chance to possibly shield it, then dsmash out of shield as a counter if he got close to her at all. Same can be done with dtilt if he overshot, which, at least in uair's case, should never ever happen. It's also possible to hop back as he's coming at us, since, you know, low air mobility and him having to commit to his approach that way, and possibly pop him up with a retreating Din's.

That last part is speculation, of course, since I never really got to practice much against it. And let's not include Delfino in that list, because it's still a deathwish to want to face him there unless you want to try and somehow dtilt lock him against a wall or something evil like that. XD As such, I'd warn about Pokemon Stadium, since he can do that through the really thin floor, and unless he does something VERY wrong he shouldn't be getting much punishment aside from a possible Din's shenanigan or something equally silly.

This ideal spot is best for thicker concrete floors, of course, which happens to be almost all the neutral stages. Some have different walls leading up to them, which can let Zelda punish his actual jumps if he pressed too close with a wtf dsmash, since he puffs his body up SO large it's... hard to not hit him. Pokemon Stadium is one of these on the flipside of what I earlier stated, but like I said in my original post, it usually takes prediction and/or really good reactions overall. ^_^;

 

[MrEh]

Guys, this is probably our easiest matchup among the top tiers.

It's really bad when Zelda's best high tier matchup is 40-60. lol

This matchup is poo because every time you extend yourself to do ANYTHING, you get grabbed. It wouldn't be that bad if Zelda had some sort of decent range in the air, or wasn't so slow. But she is.

This isn't neutral. No way.

 

[Kataefi]

To sort of sift through opinions (because there seems to be a bit of a contrast), can everyone whose contributed recently say who they've played in tourney who uses DDD.

Riot and Veggie I know you guys said you played Lain and Riot has played Buuman or something. I know Ninjalink used Zelda against Atomsk's DDD... how did he do? Mikey you've mentioned Vayseth. Anyone got more experience as to who they've played?

 

[GodAtHand]

Buuman and Lain are the only two "good" DDD mains I have played and I played Lain in a few friendlies never in actual tournament, simply from the feel I got from him I felt Buuman was better, but Lain might be lacking a lot of Zelda experience. I have played others who really are not worth mentioning though.

This matchup for me seems to be either 40-60 or 45-55. And in all honesty (I know this is gonna effect something you guys think of me but I am telling the truth) Snake is much easier for me to deal with than DDD.

 

[mountain_tiger]

It's really bad when Zelda's best high tier matchup is 40-60. lol

Even if DDD is 40:60, the ICs are still better for her than that. Just saying...

This matchup is poo because every time you extend yourself to do ANYTHING, you get grabbed. It wouldn't be that bad if Zelda had some sort of decent range in the air, or wasn't so slow. But she is.

Zelda's air speed is actually pretty fast (14th out of 39 characters). It doesn't help all that much though...

 

[Veggie123]

I feel a bit uninspired to keep going atm (mainly due to the lack of dedication I have and I'm not procrastinating on homework today lolol). I'm fine with 45-55. 40-60 is a bit too steep imo but if people opt for that, I won't mind either! Afterall, it's only more rewarding to win a MU that isn't in your favor (or sigh at the lack of experience your opponent has against Zelda)

The "good" D3s I've played would probably be Lain and Fade (who's #6 in WI). Maybe I just haven't played them enough, but it still really doesn't seem too bad for me. The MU sounds bad on paper, but it plays out pretty evenly in my experience. Anywho, I think I'm going to a tournament this weekend and I might be able to get some replays against D3 if people want to keep discussing (I'm not a great Zelda or anything, but I think I'm decent enough so people can get a feel for the MU). Note might, since I'd need to remember to bring my Wii and SD card!

 

[Tekk]

For DDDs Dthrow ==> learn2DIup

http://allisbrawl.com/video/album.aspx?id=15375
watch the jujux' matches

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Buuman and Lain are the only two "good" DDD mains I have played and I played Lain in a few friendlies never in actual tournament, simply from the feel I got from him I felt Buuman was better, but Lain might be lacking a lot of Zelda experience. I have played others who really are not worth mentioning though.

This matchup for me seems to be either 40-60 or 45-55. And in all honesty (I know this is gonna effect something you guys think of me but I am telling the truth) Snake is much easier for me to deal with than DDD.

Can you go more in depth please. What makes the snake match up easier than the d3 match up? how do you approach snake? How do you approach d3? How do you punish snake? How do you punish d3? how do you deal with nades or waddle dee's? How do you deal with ftilt or utilt ?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's really bad when Zelda's best high tier matchup is 40-60. lol

This matchup is poo because every time you extend yourself to do ANYTHING, you get grabbed. It wouldn't be that bad if Zelda had some sort of decent range in the air, or wasn't so slow. But she is.

This isn't neutral. No way.

d3 isn't exactly fast. He only falls fast because of his weight. His fastest aerial is bair. It's also easy to see coming. Also a lot of his aerial have to be auto canceled perfectly for him not to surfer a lot of lag.

To sort of sift through opinions (because there seems to be a bit of a contrast), can everyone whose contributed recently say who they've played in tourney who uses DDD.

Riot and Veggie I know you guys said you played Lain and Riot has played Buuman or something. I know Ninjalink used Zelda against Atomsk's DDD... how did he do? Mikey you've mentioned Vayseth. Anyone got more experience as to who they've played?

I just got EXP from randoms online.

@ Tekk JuJux I like JuJux's Zelda I've only watched 2 matches so far. One him vs Genius and him vs you. I like his style though.

 

[KayLo!]

He only falls fast because of his weight.

Fastfalling isn't relative to weight. Sheik and Fox fall fast as hell, but they're both light.

Anyways.

I play TUSM on a regular basis. Mains DDD, ranked #6 in PA.

40:60 is my opinion.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fastfalling isn't relative to weight. Sheik and Fox fall fast as hell, but they're both light.

Anyways.

I play TUSM on a regular basis. Mains DDD, ranked #6 in PA.

40:60 is my opinion.

What's your rank in PA ?

That's true there are fastfallers who are also light. But considering how hard d3 is to kill off the top his weight does play a factor in it kind of like bowser snake and DK.

 

[KayLo!]

What's your rank in PA ?

What's yours?

What's Veggie's?

What's HSS's or mountain's or anybody's?

Your trolling is seriously aggravating. Have fun on my ignore list.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What's yours?

What's Veggie's?

What's HSS's or mountain's or anybody's?

Your trolling is seriously aggravating. Have fun on my ignore list.

I'm not ranked in my state. I was asking because I don't think you can say oh I have EXP against the #6 player in PA so I know the match up it's 60-40. When there's a huge difference in skill. So while you're trying to make a valid point it is skewed based off the difference in skill level. I wasn't trying to get at you and I also don't see how I'm trolling. If you took offense to my post then that's just the way it is. There's wasn't a need for you to snap like that.

 

[GodAtHand]

Can you go more in depth please. What makes the snake match up easier than the d3 match up? how do you approach snake? How do you approach d3? How do you punish snake? How do you punish d3? how do you deal with nades or waddle dee's? How do you deal with ftilt or utilt ?

You don't really need to approach DDD. Yes he has waddles and the like, but they are not that threatening, and gordo can be reflected. Whatever you do don't look at that matchup between me and Buuman thats on youtube... that was the first time I played his DDD in tournament so I was a little confused to say the least...

Maybe once the Snake matchup comes up again I will explain my Snake strategy, but I know it is not going to be received well.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You don't really need to approach DDD. Yes he has waddles and the like, but they are not that threatening, and gordo can be reflected. Whatever you do don't look at that matchup between me and Buuman thats on youtube... that was the first time I played his DDD in tournament so I was a little confused to say the least...

Maybe once the Snake matchup comes up again I will explain my Snake strategy, but I know it is not going to be received well.

PM it to me then? I really hate the Snake match up so it would be nice to get another perspective.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

I'm not ranked in my state. I was asking because I don't think you can say oh I have EXP against the #6 player in PA so I know the match up it's 60-40. When there's a huge difference in skill. So while you're trying to make a valid point it is skewed based off the difference in skill level. I wasn't trying to get at you and I also don't see how I'm trolling. If you took offense to my post then that's just the way it is. There's wasn't a need for you to snap like that.

<___<

I'm going to regret this, but I don't care.

Once again, someone dismisses someone's opinion because they aren't a top ranked or highly skilled player. If experience against a Power Ranked player (I was #10, by the way, but I'm flattered nonetheless) who mains the character in question isn't enough to discuss matchups, then what do you suggest we do? Should we have the world's best Dedede fight the world's best Zelda 100 times, and record the win-loss ratio? She's not just basing this off of our skill level, otherwise her opinion would be more like 20-80.

My opinions? Zelda's options are somewhat limited. Pretty much all of her ground moves get outspaced by Ftilt. Usmash does hurt at lower damages, but that really doesn't bother Dedede too much. Most of Zelda's moves can be punished with a grab, or a Bair OoS, which is a great asset. Whoever said it's easy to see coming.......shame on you. Now, if Dedede does grab you, he's probably going to Bthrow you, not Down Throw, unless he's confident in his tech chase abilities. DI-ing up isn't going to help. If you air dodge, you're begging for a Dash Attack or another grab. Dedede's offstage options >>> Zelda's offstage options. Once you're offstage, he's gonna chase you. As far as I know, you can do one of....four? things. Fair, Nair, Nayru's Love, and Up-B, all of which can be easily read and punished.

Now, please don't hate me for having my own opinion, but I don't see how this matchup is at all even. Besides Usmash spam and being a large target for Lightning Kicks, which we know how to avoid.....usually, I don't see any huge advantages for Zelda. 65-35 Dedede, have a nice day.

 

[MrEh]

What's your rank in PA ?

Does it matter?

KayLo called you on your argument. Weight has nothing to do with fall speed.


gg

 

[KayLo!]

@TUSM: Oh ****, you right, it was 10.

Have fun trying to convince anybody.

 

[MrEh]

Sounds like a lot of people are basing their opinions on WIFI.

Makes sense, considering that being punished is infinitely harder on wifi.

 

[KayLo!]

Sounds like a lot of people are basing their opinions on WIFI.

Sounds like the usual around here. -_-

 

[Kataefi]

Iirc only legendary is talking about the matchup from a wifi perspective, unless I'm mistaken?

I'm making an important thread here soon... a different type of thread. Expect to see it coming soon!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

<___<

I'm going to regret this, but I don't care.

Once again, someone dismisses someone's opinion because they aren't a top ranked or highly skilled player. If experience against a Power Ranked player (I was #10, by the way, but I'm flattered nonetheless) who mains the character in question isn't enough to discuss matchups, then what do you suggest we do? Should we have the world's best Dedede fight the world's best Zelda 100 times, and record the win-loss ratio? She's not just basing this off of our skill level, otherwise her opinion would be more like 20-80.

My opinions? Zelda's options are somewhat limited. Pretty much all of her ground moves get outspaced by Ftilt. Usmash does hurt at lower damages, but that really doesn't bother Dedede too much. Most of Zelda's moves can be punished with a grab, or a Bair OoS, which is a great asset. Whoever said it's easy to see coming.......shame on you. Now, if Dedede does grab you, he's probably going to Bthrow you, not Down Throw, unless he's confident in his tech chase abilities. DI-ing up isn't going to help. If you air dodge, you're begging for a Dash Attack or another grab. Dedede's offstage options >>> Zelda's offstage options. Once you're offstage, he's gonna chase you. As far as I know, you can do one of....four? things. Fair, Nair, Nayru's Love, and Up-B, all of which can be easily read and punished.

Now, please don't hate me for having my own opinion, but I don't see how this matchup is at all even. Besides Usmash spam and being a large target for Lightning Kicks, which we know how to avoid.....usually, I don't see any huge advantages for Zelda. 65-35 Dedede, have a nice day.

I was saying that the fact that she is basing her EXP off of some that is ranked skews the match up and makes it seems worse than it is. 65-35 is an over exaggeration man IDC what you're ranked I'd never except that not especially not against d3.

Does it matter?

KayLo called you on your argument. Weight has nothing to do with fall speed.


gg

Saying that weight has nothing to do with fall speed seems wrong to me. I may have worded it wrong but all heavyweights are fast fallers that's a fact all the nit picking is just that nit picking and basically splitting hairs. That would be like calling someone on using too when they meant to use to or somehting like that but whatever.

Iirc only legendary is talking about the matchup from a wifi perspective, unless I'm mistaken?

I'm making an important thread here soon... a different type of thread. Expect to see it coming soon!

Wifi offline doesn't make much off a difference especially if you're playing in green and blue connection.

 

[MrEh]

Saying that weight has nothing to do with fall speed seems wrong to me. I may have worded it wrong but all heavyweights are fast fallers

Fox and Sheik are lightweights, but they fall like rocks. Samus and ROB are heavy, but they fall extremely slow. Bowser, Charizard, and DK weigh 1000 pounds, but their fall speed is only average.

Weight does not affect fall speed. Fail argument is fail. gg

Wifi offline doesn't make much off a difference especially if you're playing in green and blue connection.

It does make a difference. 6+ frames of lag (usually 10 or more) makes a giant difference.

 

[Darkmusician]

Wario is also a very heavy character but is pretty floaty.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Last week I played a DDD named Kain or Kalm or something (lol can't remember) who lives in SC. We got a decent number of matches in, so I feel like I got a good feel for the MU.

EDIT: MrEh, ICs are high tier. I said top tier lol