sniperworm
Smash Ace
Wow, wtf is this about? Now you're insulting my Zelda? What did I do to deserve that?
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Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Dedede
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Move to the continental U.S. It's a sanctuary from Marsulas's scorn.
Jupz
Smash Master
How can Zelda force him to approach? Niether can force the other to approach in this matchup, Zelda's advantage 55:45 imo. Its hard to DI out of her smashes with DDD and easy to kill dedede with uair and lightning kicks when were recovering with UPB. Although Dedede can also kill Zelda really easily 
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Anything can... she's a ragdoll. And, yes, that hurts.Although Dedede can also kill Zelda really easily
I still think that a patient, very prudent zelda should be working with a 60:40, but 55:45 doesn't have me up in arms or anything.
I love how Sonic can take my ideas and turn them into sentences that somewhat make sense lol.
Sniperworm......you and DM smash a lot. I didn't say that you suck or that you don't know what you're doing.........just that you smash a lot, get over it.
Sniperworm......you and DM smash a lot. I didn't say that you suck or that you don't know what you're doing.........just that you smash a lot, get over it.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
that's not to say the style you two have is BAD. it's just that it's very similar and it's practically the only style of Zelda HI will see while it's not near as common on the mainland.
It's not fair to say that what can get around one playstyle of Zelda will get around all playstyles.
It's not fair to say that what can get around one playstyle of Zelda will get around all playstyles.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Zelda's smashes are her best moves. If you're not smashing a lot, then you're probably not winning.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I still say Down+B is her best move, but that's neither here nor there.
her smashes are good... but they don't need to be used in QUITE such a liberal manner.
Anyway, DDD.... does not have the advantage.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I think he does.
But then again, no one listens to me anyway. It's not like I know Zelda inside and out, and it's not like I'm a competent player.
*cough*
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
*gets ready for Marsulas to breath fire...... like bowser*
have you ever played the DDD vs. Zelda matchup from either point of veiw anyway?
Her dtilt is easily her best move......that right there shows that you don't entirely "know Zelda in and out". I still don't see what you being a competent player has to do with a matchup discussion between two characters that you don't even play.......but whatever.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
I also jab, Dtilt, and Ftilt a lot (well, a lot considering it's Ftilt). Yet you imply that basically all I do is use smashes.
Well you apparently didn't mean anything by it, so all is forgiven.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Wrong. Taunts and DownB are.
I'm sorry. I keep thinking that Zelda has a good spot dodge. Silly me!
I actually main Dedede and Zelda evenly. Rawr.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
It's certainly not a bad spotdodge....
MrEh
Smash Hero
Matchup is 45-55. So it's mostly even.
If someone says Zelda's spot dodge is good, I correct them. It's that simple.
It's not good though. That's what I'm saying.
If someone says Zelda's spot dodge is good, I correct them. It's that simple.
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
55-45 Z
If he's facing you, expect a grab. If he's facing away from you, expect a bair...I honestly think it's that simple.
If he's facing you, expect a grab. If he's facing away from you, expect a bair...I honestly think it's that simple.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
This was never in our favor... I specifically remember times going against NE's excellent DDD main Buuman and thinking "This is not good for Zelda... I was lied to!"
Our one advantage in this matchup is that we can kill him earlier than most characters. Although we can't be chain grabbed he still does insane damage... His grab has super ridiculous range. He can be lightning kicked easily sometimes... but not as often as some people would like to think. His bair is good enough to mention although its not the entirety of his air game that will give zelda problems.
imo 40-60 DDD.
Our one advantage in this matchup is that we can kill him earlier than most characters. Although we can't be chain grabbed he still does insane damage... His grab has super ridiculous range. He can be lightning kicked easily sometimes... but not as often as some people would like to think. His bair is good enough to mention although its not the entirety of his air game that will give zelda problems.
imo 40-60 DDD.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Lolol, I thought the exact same thing when I tried to go against my friend TUSM's DDD (ranked in PA) with Zelda. **** was supposed to be easy (lesson learned on following forum MU numbers), but I was doing considerably worse than I do with Pikachu.
Pika vs. DDD is 60:40. I know what it feels like.
Zelda vs. DDD ain't in Zelda's favor.
First of all, @people saying you can camp DDD with Din's..... that's slightly flawed thinking. Can we camp him better than we can camp most characters? Yes. He's slow, and Din's > waddles. But even without a projectile on par with our own, Din's is ridiculously easy to perfect shield, so he can just walk up, perfect shield Din's, and ftilt/grab/air camp outside our fsmash range.
@People saying he's easy to LK..... sure, he's big, so it's easier to aim, but DDD is not easy to LK in terms of opportunities to do so. Unless you space it so perfectly, not a pixel is too close, he can shield + grab LK attempts when he's on the ground; in the air, you'll get beaten by bair more often than not. The only safe times to LK are OOS vs. the right moves or to punish a bad recovery on his part, which isn't so different from most other characters.
I addressed those two points in particular since they seem to be a large part of the reason why people think the MU's in Zelda's favor.
I'd say 40:60. DDD's throws do ******** amounts of damage, and even though he can't CG us, he can tech chase like a beast (although Zelda has a good roll, which is nice). He can aircamp just out of our range and punish with bair; on the ground, he can camp just outside of our range and punish with grabs.
Both characters have trouble approaching the other. Zelda can usmash juggle and force a semi-approach. But overall, DDD punishes too hard, juggles her fairly easily, and he can bair **** our recovery. In theory, LKs and Din's camping are nice, but it doesn't work like that in a real match.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
On a theoretical scale, you're completely correct. In practice, couldn't we mindgame him into hitting with Din's or something....
No one in the game is easy to lightning kick; fatter characters are just easier than others. Besides, he can't Bair you if you manage to get in front of him in the air, and his Fair is kinda slow (but if you get hit it does hurt...)
As you said, Zelda has a good tech roll (the longest in the game, in fact. At least she does something right...), so tech chasing won't work so well. Really, DDD's better off using BThrow. He can't follow up with anything, but it does a good 16% damage, which is approximately 1/6 of the damage he needs to kill us with UTilt.
I used to think it was 55:45, but considering how Bair > FW, I'm thinking thta it might be even....
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Mindgames don't go into a MU discussion.
DDD will probably be facing away from you if you're both in the air. Haven't you seen the chart? All he needs are grab and bair.
Overexaggerating, but it's kind of true.
EDIT: Also, he can turn around in the air. Being a multi-jumper and all.
Longest tech roll or not, it won't always save you. As long as he predicts well (or forces you into a corner, i.e. the ledge or a platform), dthrow still puts you in a position where you're at a disadvantage and could be setting yourself up for more damage.
Or he can just throw you in the air and proceed to juggle.
Or, like you said, bthrow and give you lots of damage.
My overall point is that DDD can get a lot of damage in off of one grab even though he can't CG us. Zelda, on the other hand, is a one-hit punisher, which isn't nearly as effective unless you can get an LK at high percentages.
I don't see why we have an advantage on him. Someone please explain it to me. Or even why the MU is even.
DDD punishes better.
DDD camps/baits better (not projectile-wise).
DDD edgeguards better.
DDD juggles better.
DDD lives longer and has an easier time setting up his kills.
On Zelda's side, all she really has is that she doesn't get CG'd, can usmash juggle like... twice at low percentages, and at long-range, she can outcamp him. Woohoo.
zeldspazz
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2008
- Messages
- 3,432
Sounds very reasonable to me when you put it that way Kaylo lol
Edit:
Wait wait questions Kaylo:
How does DDD set up kills easier
How does DDD juggle better
And does Zelda's Usmash/Ftilt beat DDDs bair? Since we slightly outcamp DDD his will approach, probably with bair, and if we can beat it out Id more likely to call it even...
Edit:
Wait wait questions Kaylo:
How does DDD set up kills easier
How does DDD juggle better
And does Zelda's Usmash/Ftilt beat DDDs bair? Since we slightly outcamp DDD his will approach, probably with bair, and if we can beat it out Id more likely to call it even...
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
D3's also good at shooing away a Zelda below him with a well timed dair, which sort of hinders using usmash to keep him aerial. Despite this, I've never really had too much trouble keeping D3 airborne...just don't go for the usmash all the time, adding in grabs (you'd be surprised how easy it is to grab D3 in the air) and occasional nairs (since they like to waste their jumps trying to position themselves for a bair) make predictable Zelda slightly less predictable.
One thing about DDD is that if he goes off stage to try and kill Zelda with a bair or something, he can't always reliably punish her if she manages to teleport back to the stage. So as tempting as bairing Zelda offstage is, sometimes it's better to just bait her recovery on stage and go back to throwing her back off.
D3's edge guarding is probably the hardest aspect for Zelda to deal with of this particular matchup. He can just keep throwing her off stage. Though an edge guarding Zelda will also give a recovering D3 trouble as well. If D3 is forced to recover on stage with his up b, it's pretty much a free uair or kick. That being said, D3s will try their hardest to prevent that scenario from happening but don't hesitate to take advantage of that situation if it ever arises.
Zelda needs to play very carefully, a lot her moves can be easily punished by D3 thanks to all her lag. D3 can be forced to approach but his ftilt is super annoying and outranges everything Zelda has on the ground. Also watch the airdodging here, a lot of D3s bait airdodges and punish with bair. I usually mix it up with airdodging and the occasional DIing towards him and fair.
I actually consider dsmash one of her better kill moves here. Even if it doesn't kill him, it REALLY puts him in a bad spot if you manage to get him by the stage. But most of the kills I get are usually from bairs and usmash. D3 has like two safe kill moves, bair and utilt. Bair usually get super staled from overuse and utilt is pretty obvious...it's not rare for Zelda to be living over 120%, I think I've lived till almost 200% at one point.
I've played a wide variety of D3 mains (many of whom are actually very good), and lain's D3 was the only one I lost a game to in a tourney set (we only did Zelda vs D3 for one game, got ***** btw loool). Note how I say game, because I get counterpicked every single time :embarrass Maybe there are MU johns but honestly, anyone that plays D3 shouldn't be dumb enough to jump into the **** considering how their character works.
I'm sticking by 50-50.
edit: I think bair is disjointed so there's not much use in trying to counter it head on.
One thing about DDD is that if he goes off stage to try and kill Zelda with a bair or something, he can't always reliably punish her if she manages to teleport back to the stage. So as tempting as bairing Zelda offstage is, sometimes it's better to just bait her recovery on stage and go back to throwing her back off.
D3's edge guarding is probably the hardest aspect for Zelda to deal with of this particular matchup. He can just keep throwing her off stage. Though an edge guarding Zelda will also give a recovering D3 trouble as well. If D3 is forced to recover on stage with his up b, it's pretty much a free uair or kick. That being said, D3s will try their hardest to prevent that scenario from happening but don't hesitate to take advantage of that situation if it ever arises.
Zelda needs to play very carefully, a lot her moves can be easily punished by D3 thanks to all her lag. D3 can be forced to approach but his ftilt is super annoying and outranges everything Zelda has on the ground. Also watch the airdodging here, a lot of D3s bait airdodges and punish with bair. I usually mix it up with airdodging and the occasional DIing towards him and fair.
I actually consider dsmash one of her better kill moves here. Even if it doesn't kill him, it REALLY puts him in a bad spot if you manage to get him by the stage. But most of the kills I get are usually from bairs and usmash. D3 has like two safe kill moves, bair and utilt. Bair usually get super staled from overuse and utilt is pretty obvious...it's not rare for Zelda to be living over 120%, I think I've lived till almost 200% at one point.
I've played a wide variety of D3 mains (many of whom are actually very good), and lain's D3 was the only one I lost a game to in a tourney set (we only did Zelda vs D3 for one game, got ***** btw loool). Note how I say game, because I get counterpicked every single time :embarrass Maybe there are MU johns but honestly, anyone that plays D3 shouldn't be dumb enough to jump into the **** considering how their character works.
I'm sticking by 50-50.
edit: I think bair is disjointed so there's not much use in trying to counter it head on.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
@Veggie: If I read your write-up without seeing how you rated the MU, I'd assume you thought it was in DDD's favor.
I'm still not seeing where Zelda makes up for everything DDD has on her.
@Zeldspazz:
DDD juggles better because like Veggie said, a dair from DDD can outrange Zelda's usmash/uair if it's timed/spaced right, plus he has multiple jumps, making it somewhat easier for him to avoid both. On the other side, DDD can juggle Zelda with uair or bair, and there's really not much you can do about, especially if you've already used your second jump. The best you can do is time your airdodge(s) well and try to land safely without getting grabbed. He also falls way faster than Zelda, so getting under her isn't hard for him.
He sets up kills better because in addition to utilt and bair, he has dthrow. While dthrow won't kill you outright, it puts you in a position where you need to be VERY cautious with how you tech/tech roll/whatever. If you make the wrong choice and he predicts where you'll go, he can hit you with a smash or dash attack, and you're done.
He also has dtilt, which can easily put you in a bad recovery position.
And he edgeguards better, which semi falls under the category of killing.
I'm still not seeing where Zelda makes up for everything DDD has on her.
@Zeldspazz:
DDD juggles better because like Veggie said, a dair from DDD can outrange Zelda's usmash/uair if it's timed/spaced right, plus he has multiple jumps, making it somewhat easier for him to avoid both. On the other side, DDD can juggle Zelda with uair or bair, and there's really not much you can do about, especially if you've already used your second jump. The best you can do is time your airdodge(s) well and try to land safely without getting grabbed. He also falls way faster than Zelda, so getting under her isn't hard for him.
He sets up kills better because in addition to utilt and bair, he has dthrow. While dthrow won't kill you outright, it puts you in a position where you need to be VERY cautious with how you tech/tech roll/whatever. If you make the wrong choice and he predicts where you'll go, he can hit you with a smash or dash attack, and you're done.
He also has dtilt, which can easily put you in a bad recovery position.
And he edgeguards better, which semi falls under the category of killing.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
*shrug* Zelda's a ****ty character. The sooner we all accept that she's not viable and that none of us should be using her for anything other than low tiers, the sooner we can say "**** that" and make it work regardless.
I just hate seeing people go into a MU thinking it'll be even or -- worse -- in Zelda's favor when it's not. It's better to be realistic and know what to expect so you can work around it. Blind confidence and overestimation does no good.
Riot's last post (and my own similar experience) is a classic example of what'll happen if we keep putting biased numbers on MUs. People will go in thinking, "Oh, Zelda has the advantage, I got dis," then they'll face a good player, struggle, and start doubting themselves because it's not supposed to be that hard according to the boards.
Just my 2 cents on that.
/end mini rant
Anyways, Veggie, I'm interested to hear your reasons in particular for why the MU is even. You've stated your general thoughts, but it sounds like you gave DDD more advantages than Zelda.... which goes against your 50:50 rating.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Didn't read everything. But @ Veggie, I played Lain's DDD and it was nothing compared to Buuman's. I might have exaggerated a little... ^_^, but I can beat lain's but not Buuman's lol. Sadly Buuman is in his first year of college and he retired from smash for a while, hopefully he will come back -_-.
A very deadly technique indeed.
On this note, if you look in the DDD boards somewhere... there is something called the Buuman trap. Which is crazy... It is basically using Dthrow on someone who can't be chaingrabbed near a ledge. and Since they are so close to the edge the DDD will charge a Dsmash, if you roll back you get hit, if you roll behind you get hit, and if you get up attack you get hit... Since he pulls back a little bit during the charge you have no options really, just tech it and hope to get out in time.
A very deadly technique indeed.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Lol, I've read that thread and been caught in it a few times. Getting dthrown by DDD near the ledge is ridiculously frustrating, and it's a bad habit I have (getting grabbed by the ledge) since I kind of love being near the end of the stage from playing Pikachu.
In addition to teching, you can wait, then do a normal getup and try to time your invincibility frames so that his dsmash goes through you. x.x Still kind of a no-win situation, though.
In addition to teching, you can wait, then do a normal getup and try to time your invincibility frames so that his dsmash goes through you. x.x Still kind of a no-win situation, though.
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
@Kaylo: lol, I tend to splurge on what X character does to Zelda just to avoid the "you don't know how X character works" argument. But I'll try my best to fill in the gaps!
@Riot: We talking singles or doubles? I think you mentioned beating him in teams, but MW isn't exactly known for their doubles skill. The "Buuman trap" is a nice little trick, but it's entirely based on opponent reaction. Consequentially, if he charges it, you can just let him charge then get up/get up attack when he releases. D3's dsmash doesn't have more range than Zelda's get up attack so he needs to space himself perfectly if he's gambling on the charge to save him from not getting hit.
Not being able to CG isn't Zelda specific but he loses out on an important aspect of his game. CGs are used for damage racking, positioning, and getting his moves unstale (bair says hi). D3s usually chaingrab characters to ridiculously high percentages to get over that predictable kill moves hurdle.
I feel that losing out on the chain grab balances the substantial weight difference.
Of course his grab game is good, I think he can powershield every single one of our moves and shield grab (which again can be said about a lot of characters), except for fsmash. Fsmash is pretty safe against D3, he CAN punish it if he spotdodges it and if he's near Zelda. But if he shields it, the only reliable punish against it is ftilt which is more of an annoyance rather than something game breaking. Realistically he's not going to powershield and grab her ALL the time, but whiffed/shielded usmash, ftilt, and utilt will get punished the most.
His approach options aren't too stellar since he's primarily a defensive character like Zelda. We all know Zelda's approach options are all fail but luckily she won't have to too often during this particular MU. Just don't get too Din's Fire happy if he gets too close.
If he approaches on the ground which doesn't happen often, he'll probably run up and shield or do a dash grab. If you think he's doing a dash grab, you can actually pivot grab him or just walk away and grab or whatever punish you prefer because his dash grab tumbling animation goes so far. If D3 gets dangerously close to you with his shield, again you can grab him or try to push him back with fsmash/poke with dtilt. Dthrow is really good for making D3 use up his jumps and I mention fsmash/dilt since they have an ok amount of lingering hit frames which give more chances to hit a D3 out of a spotdodge. Usmash is really good for hitting D3 out of his spotdodges, but it's better to activate it during the spotdodge since it's more punishable on shield.
If he approaches in the air, he can turn around at will by using one of his jumps at the expense of losing maneuverability. I usually try to run around him and bait one of his aerials then shield and punish accordingly. His aerials are more dangerous to use the closer he is to the ground so baiting a low aerial is good. If he's too high and used a lot of his jumps you can gamble and try to position so you're facing him and hit him with a nair/fair/bair. You could do it while he's facing away from you too but there's obviously more risk involved. I really don't recommend staying stationary if he approaches aerially since it gives more chances to space himself and use aerials. Good D3s will also mix in airdodges to try and get a ground grab in so look out for that.
If Zelda approaches ever, he can just grab her. Crossover nair to dtilt MIGHT WORK rarely, but I wouldn't bet on it.
He wins pretty much hands down if they're both in the air. Like I said before, it's best to mix up your descent. He beats our air game, but trying to hit him with a fair/bair/nair can catch D3s off guard. It doesn't solve all of her problems, but it'll make D3s rethink their options.
They both win if their opponent is off stage. D3 falls so fast and moves so slowly in the air that airdodging isn't always the best option for him if he's chased off stage since he'll be forced to recover even lower. Zelda's dair is surprisingly effective to force D3s to recover low. The best situation for Zelda is if she knocks D3 off with a dsmash or another attack that doesn't send very high (lol Nayru's?). Trying to countercamp Zelda offstage with waddle dees if D3 is above her isn't a good idea either since there's enough lag to get hit with Din's if it misses her. D3 also doesn't have any good ledge options against Zelda, with his best probably being a jump to dair.
D3 can just regrab Zelda so she is thrown offstage over and over again, it's really as simple as that. Her ledge options aren't that great against him either with her best being jumping and running away or something lol.
I dunno if I covered everything (probably not), but that's the most I could think of for the time being. I do mention punishing a lot for Zelda's advantages just because she is a good punisher and there are a lot of situations where D3 is open for punishing. I really don't mention specific moves for punishing since she can use a ton of different ones but bair and fair are optimal for kills/dilt for racking damage etc etc.
Oh yeah, dtilt>utilt/usmash/whatever is really good against D3 for kills since he's too heavy to get popped up too far/big/fat/ugly/barely any aerial speed at all/no fast aerials to hit Zelda out of the way with in time.
edit: wow that is one unattractive wall of text. lolololol, there's no tl;dr sorry
@Riot: We talking singles or doubles? I think you mentioned beating him in teams, but MW isn't exactly known for their doubles skill. The "Buuman trap" is a nice little trick, but it's entirely based on opponent reaction. Consequentially, if he charges it, you can just let him charge then get up/get up attack when he releases. D3's dsmash doesn't have more range than Zelda's get up attack so he needs to space himself perfectly if he's gambling on the charge to save him from not getting hit.
Not being able to CG isn't Zelda specific but he loses out on an important aspect of his game. CGs are used for damage racking, positioning, and getting his moves unstale (bair says hi). D3s usually chaingrab characters to ridiculously high percentages to get over that predictable kill moves hurdle.
I feel that losing out on the chain grab balances the substantial weight difference.
Of course his grab game is good, I think he can powershield every single one of our moves and shield grab (which again can be said about a lot of characters), except for fsmash. Fsmash is pretty safe against D3, he CAN punish it if he spotdodges it and if he's near Zelda. But if he shields it, the only reliable punish against it is ftilt which is more of an annoyance rather than something game breaking. Realistically he's not going to powershield and grab her ALL the time, but whiffed/shielded usmash, ftilt, and utilt will get punished the most.
His approach options aren't too stellar since he's primarily a defensive character like Zelda. We all know Zelda's approach options are all fail but luckily she won't have to too often during this particular MU. Just don't get too Din's Fire happy if he gets too close.
If he approaches on the ground which doesn't happen often, he'll probably run up and shield or do a dash grab. If you think he's doing a dash grab, you can actually pivot grab him or just walk away and grab or whatever punish you prefer because his dash grab tumbling animation goes so far. If D3 gets dangerously close to you with his shield, again you can grab him or try to push him back with fsmash/poke with dtilt. Dthrow is really good for making D3 use up his jumps and I mention fsmash/dilt since they have an ok amount of lingering hit frames which give more chances to hit a D3 out of a spotdodge. Usmash is really good for hitting D3 out of his spotdodges, but it's better to activate it during the spotdodge since it's more punishable on shield.
If he approaches in the air, he can turn around at will by using one of his jumps at the expense of losing maneuverability. I usually try to run around him and bait one of his aerials then shield and punish accordingly. His aerials are more dangerous to use the closer he is to the ground so baiting a low aerial is good. If he's too high and used a lot of his jumps you can gamble and try to position so you're facing him and hit him with a nair/fair/bair. You could do it while he's facing away from you too but there's obviously more risk involved. I really don't recommend staying stationary if he approaches aerially since it gives more chances to space himself and use aerials. Good D3s will also mix in airdodges to try and get a ground grab in so look out for that.
If Zelda approaches ever, he can just grab her. Crossover nair to dtilt MIGHT WORK rarely, but I wouldn't bet on it.
He wins pretty much hands down if they're both in the air. Like I said before, it's best to mix up your descent. He beats our air game, but trying to hit him with a fair/bair/nair can catch D3s off guard. It doesn't solve all of her problems, but it'll make D3s rethink their options.
They both win if their opponent is off stage. D3 falls so fast and moves so slowly in the air that airdodging isn't always the best option for him if he's chased off stage since he'll be forced to recover even lower. Zelda's dair is surprisingly effective to force D3s to recover low. The best situation for Zelda is if she knocks D3 off with a dsmash or another attack that doesn't send very high (lol Nayru's?). Trying to countercamp Zelda offstage with waddle dees if D3 is above her isn't a good idea either since there's enough lag to get hit with Din's if it misses her. D3 also doesn't have any good ledge options against Zelda, with his best probably being a jump to dair.
D3 can just regrab Zelda so she is thrown offstage over and over again, it's really as simple as that. Her ledge options aren't that great against him either with her best being jumping and running away or something lol.
I dunno if I covered everything (probably not), but that's the most I could think of for the time being. I do mention punishing a lot for Zelda's advantages just because she is a good punisher and there are a lot of situations where D3 is open for punishing. I really don't mention specific moves for punishing since she can use a ton of different ones but bair and fair are optimal for kills/dilt for racking damage etc etc.
Oh yeah, dtilt>utilt/usmash/whatever is really good against D3 for kills since he's too heavy to get popped up too far/big/fat/ugly/barely any aerial speed at all/no fast aerials to hit Zelda out of the way with in time.
edit: wow that is one unattractive wall of text. lolololol, there's no tl;dr sorry
I've been meaning to ask Mikey something when he made this quote in the video thread:
I'm quite keen to know the options DDD has when recovering on the ledge against Zelda.
Mikey Lenetia
Smash Champion
It's something I had when Vayseth was around and we played a lot. I'm not quite sure I have those anymore, but I can at least attempt to describe that mindset.
Both Zelda and Marth are two characters I instantly categorize as the spacing/precision characters, since so many of their moves are more powerful at certain points, or even linear in application(moreso Zelda on the second one). That's the reason why I said that I wanted Dedede to grab the ledge. From there, if he wants to come onto the stage, he only has one area to go, and thanks to his slow air speed, it's a risk I want to force so Zelda can catch him with something. I found back then that there was one spot I could stand in where I could hit a roll with a bair, a getup with a fair, a jump would get a nair or uair(if I read it ahead of time or their percents are high), and a ledge attack would be grabbed/dodged and countered/Nayru's. And if he tried to stall/plank, he risked getting a dsmash, dair, Din's(an option, but not one to spam), or a 'possible' dtilt if he mistimed his jump and put his body over the ledge, dependent on stage, of course. The problem lies, for Zelda much more than Marth, that the proper punishment takes REALLY good reactions, prediction, or a mixture of the two. The only moderately safe thing for Dedede to do that has been noted is a jumped dair, but... Zelda can punish THAT with a uair or, if heavily predicted, a possible kick.
It's a bit hard to describe for me, because I don't really 'think' and such. I got that mindset after passing a certain point in Melee, and I never really reverted from it. Not to mention, and I think a lot of people in MI can attest to this, is that I REALLY do well at edgeguarding, be it with Peach, Zelda, or whoever I'm playing at the time.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
@ Kaylo we are discussing a match up about Zelda vs D3 not pikachu vs d3. So if you're going to try to bring something like that to the match up discussion please stay out of it. Also we don't need to hear anything about how bad of a character Zelda is because that does not help the match up either.
@Riot I've seen the buuman trap video unless I'm mistake you were the Zelda in that vid right? I also find it weird that you're able to beat lains d3 and not buumans. Not to discredit buuman's d3.
@Mountain Tiger Even if Zelda has the longest tech roll d3 can still do a good job of tech chasing the dthrow. He has a lot of options to tech chase. He can pivot grab, DA, dsmash, dash shield or ftilt ( I doubt if the ftilt will connect).
@Kataefi d3 options on the ledge are ledge drop DJ uair or ledge drop DJ fair. If you're too close you'll get hit with it.
As for the match up d3 will primarily space with ftilt. Waddle dee's can be a nuisance so don't just brush them off. Expect them they will more than likely be coming. Longest non tether grab in the game so that is something to be aware of. Being able to get past his grab ftilt and waddle dee's and doo's is what the match up comes down to IMO. You have to be careful when trying to get inside because you don't want to eat a Utilt or dtilt. Utilt will most likely kill you at 80 or so.
D3 is big and slow. Upsmash is a great in this match up as is dsmash. Upsmash can catch him a couple of times on low percentages and it's also hard for him to escape if he even can escape it. Dsmash is good in this match up because of where it sends d3. that angle makes it bad for him. Your grab game can also cause problems for him because he's big and falls fast. Punish his recovery uair or LK. HE also has a lot of landing lag on his aerials if he doesn't perform the perfectly punish the bull crap out of those.
Edgeguarding
Can be a pain against both parties. d3 can follow you and bair or fair you. Zelda can use Din's to force air dodges especially after dsmashes. His recovery has super armor on the way up but is vulnerable all through out the rest of it.
Stages
Battle field or Smashville
Ban halberd.
I think the match up is even.
@Riot I've seen the buuman trap video unless I'm mistake you were the Zelda in that vid right? I also find it weird that you're able to beat lains d3 and not buumans. Not to discredit buuman's d3.
@Mountain Tiger Even if Zelda has the longest tech roll d3 can still do a good job of tech chasing the dthrow. He has a lot of options to tech chase. He can pivot grab, DA, dsmash, dash shield or ftilt ( I doubt if the ftilt will connect).
@Kataefi d3 options on the ledge are ledge drop DJ uair or ledge drop DJ fair. If you're too close you'll get hit with it.
As for the match up d3 will primarily space with ftilt. Waddle dee's can be a nuisance so don't just brush them off. Expect them they will more than likely be coming. Longest non tether grab in the game so that is something to be aware of. Being able to get past his grab ftilt and waddle dee's and doo's is what the match up comes down to IMO. You have to be careful when trying to get inside because you don't want to eat a Utilt or dtilt. Utilt will most likely kill you at 80 or so.
D3 is big and slow. Upsmash is a great in this match up as is dsmash. Upsmash can catch him a couple of times on low percentages and it's also hard for him to escape if he even can escape it. Dsmash is good in this match up because of where it sends d3. that angle makes it bad for him. Your grab game can also cause problems for him because he's big and falls fast. Punish his recovery uair or LK. HE also has a lot of landing lag on his aerials if he doesn't perform the perfectly punish the bull crap out of those.
Edgeguarding
Can be a pain against both parties. d3 can follow you and bair or fair you. Zelda can use Din's to force air dodges especially after dsmashes. His recovery has super armor on the way up but is vulnerable all through out the rest of it.
Stages
Battle field or Smashville
Ban halberd.
I think the match up is even.
Veggie123
Smash Journeyman
@AL: Kaylo was just emphasizing the disadvantageous position you're in when you get dthrowed by D3. I don't think it's really MU specific, but more D3 specific.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
You know what? Forget it. Responding to you is pointless.
@Veggie: I'll respond later (on the topic of the MU), about to go for a bit.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
That's what I was referring to when I saw kaylo's post.
Na it doesn't matter. I could say ah man i play Wario so I know what an even match up with d3 means. That mean nothing so don't bring it too the table. Yes you contribute to these forums however, that doesn't mean that constant bashing of Zelda is warranted. Basically what the match up is coming down to is that Zelda is a bad character so there's no way Zelda can do anything in the match up. Because you play a better character who has an advantage over d3 means you know the match up with Zelda better so there's no way it's possible. It has to come to a point where if you're going to have to stop. So while you're frame data is much appreciate and the sex posse thread are nice but if it has to come with your constant bashing of Zelda I'd rather not have any of that stuff TBH.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Hmm. Guess you got to my post before I edited it out.
The Pika vs. DDD thing was more of a passing comment. The point of it was to say that I know what an advantaged MU feels like, and the Zelda vs. DDD MU feels like a disadvantaged one to me.
Regardless, if you'll notice, I followed it with an entire post on the Zelda vs. DDD MU.... I'm in no way basing my opinion off of my experience using Pikachu. That sentence was a standalone one; it didn't influence what followed. I would never talk about a MU I haven't played to some significant degree. I have played the Zelda vs. DDD MU quite a few times.
I don't "constantly bash" Zelda. I state the facts, both positive and negative. If you see things differently, I dunno what to tell you.
@Mikey: That ledge stuff's pretty interesting. What about certain stages where DDD can hit you through the ledge? Stages like Halberd, Delfino, Brinstar, etc. where he can uair/fair you through the edge..... if Zelda's standing at this ideal spot you're talking about, could he potentially hit you through the stage and **** up your spacing? Or will you be too far/able to counter in some way?
@Veggie: In my experience, not being able to CG Zelda doesn't hurt DDD very much.... he can't use it to rack up a ton of guaranteed damage or unstale his moves, but he still has a solid grab game, and the fact that Zelda's so easy to juggle means he can just toss you in the air. He's also ridiculous at setting up tech chases, but that's sort of a rock-paper-scissors thing, I suppose.
On the ground, don't forget that he has ftilt. It's fairly easy to shield, but he can still use it as a semi-approach/annoyance outside of our fsmash range.
I still maintain that DDD's punishing game > Zelda's overall, and I think that that, combined with his superior air game, ability to aircamp to some degree, and better juggling skills put him at an advantage. They're even in just about every other area.... I don't really see any significant place where Zelda does better to put things in her advantage. @.@
The Pika vs. DDD thing was more of a passing comment. The point of it was to say that I know what an advantaged MU feels like, and the Zelda vs. DDD MU feels like a disadvantaged one to me.
Regardless, if you'll notice, I followed it with an entire post on the Zelda vs. DDD MU.... I'm in no way basing my opinion off of my experience using Pikachu. That sentence was a standalone one; it didn't influence what followed. I would never talk about a MU I haven't played to some significant degree. I have played the Zelda vs. DDD MU quite a few times.
I don't "constantly bash" Zelda. I state the facts, both positive and negative. If you see things differently, I dunno what to tell you.
@Mikey: That ledge stuff's pretty interesting. What about certain stages where DDD can hit you through the ledge? Stages like Halberd, Delfino, Brinstar, etc. where he can uair/fair you through the edge..... if Zelda's standing at this ideal spot you're talking about, could he potentially hit you through the stage and **** up your spacing? Or will you be too far/able to counter in some way?
@Veggie: In my experience, not being able to CG Zelda doesn't hurt DDD very much.... he can't use it to rack up a ton of guaranteed damage or unstale his moves, but he still has a solid grab game, and the fact that Zelda's so easy to juggle means he can just toss you in the air. He's also ridiculous at setting up tech chases, but that's sort of a rock-paper-scissors thing, I suppose.
On the ground, don't forget that he has ftilt. It's fairly easy to shield, but he can still use it as a semi-approach/annoyance outside of our fsmash range.
I still maintain that DDD's punishing game > Zelda's overall, and I think that that, combined with his superior air game, ability to aircamp to some degree, and better juggling skills put him at an advantage. They're even in just about every other area.... I don't really see any significant place where Zelda does better to put things in her advantage. @.@