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Matchup Discussion: Donkey Kong

A2ZOMG

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DK has no ledge getup options lol. For playing to be brain dead, everything he does loses to N-air out of shield unless he's playing on YI basically. Especially when his damage is over 100%, DK is totally free on the ledge. EVERY one of his ledge options can be recognized and punished on reaction either for a reset that puts him back on the ledge, or a kill.

Given that any competent player understands that DK really doesn't have the tools to get up from the ledge safely, this more than counterbalances DK's extreme weight. Given that Mario also combos DK effectively, DK is actually much easier for Mario to kill than his extreme weight would imply.
 

Ripple

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DK has no ledge getup options lol.
wrong, other DKs will tell you that you are also.

everything he does loses to N-air out of shield unless he's playing on YI basically.
I'd like to see you nair my spaced f-tilt OOS.

EVERY one of his ledge options can be recognized and punished on reaction either for a reset that puts him back on the ledge, or a kill.
I'm honestly sick of this kind of theory craft. you can't react to DK's ledge options perfect every time of probably even half the time.

Given that any competent player understands that DK really doesn't have the tools to get up from the ledge safely, this more than counterbalances DK's extreme weight. Given that Mario also combos DK effectively, DK is actually much easier for Mario to kill than his extreme weight would imply.
any competent player understand you don't want to make a mistake around DK and lose a stock. choosing a wrong counter from the ledge can easily result in that.
 

Omari

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DK has a lot of options on the ledge. more than you'd expect. he's not free

I honestly do not see how you guys even think its in mario's advantage. Mario juggles DK? so do a lot of characters. its something to expect when you play as DK. Mario might kill well for a low tier but it's still DK, you won't kill him until like 150% ( I don't want to hear any " half charged upsmash kills at 110% on DK and is easy to land" nonsense). DK is still DK and has no real exploits on characters, he can't juggle, he can't fallow up most of the time, He plays 1 hit wonders and keep away with everyone. playing against mario is no different. a few hits and your end death %. but its the burden of you to get in since you can't kill with most of your attacks like DK
Note: Never did I say DK was free on the ledge. Generally speaking, some may think he has limited options while hanging from a ledge but that's the fun of becoming creative (isn't it) with your main(s). Long story short, I said, free DK is free.

IMO, this MU (besides being fun for both parties) is even hands down. Personally, I don't think it's fair to place all of us in one category (especially since this is a discussion based thread & we all have different views on the matter) Ripple.

Point given, point taken about other characters also juggling DK. IMO, (I think some of our members may agree with me that) Mario juggles much better (fairly well) than most characters in brawl.

Mario's killing power is relatively low & by saying he kills well for a low tier is just an insult to all low tiers. (Not starting any **** Ripple, just stating facts.)

Once more, free DK is free (obviously if he lets you land a charged front smash or shutter step front smash).

Amazing how you say DK can't do much (exploits, juggles, follow up, etc) in general especially since I sub DK (along with the remaining roster). Yes, I will get involved on the DK boards (especially to help me become a better smasher (brawler) overall) Ripple.

Killing isn't on of Mario's strong points (which is why I'm-no **** that, we all are further developing his meta-game to modify his weaknesses & strengthen his strengths) obviously. I don't mean to come off as harsh but I can't just let people talk **** about Mario without defending him at least (although I do agree our members may push Mario up too much (like saying this MU is in his favor) up the ladder instead of climbing up gradually) bro.

Thanks for your time. Why can't :mario2: & :dk2: just get along? They've been contesting each other after all these years, don't you think its time they actually work together for a start? ....hm, KirinBlaze & Will (really cool black people IRL) come to mind...
 

Inferno3044

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@ripple - im with you. Its really not that easy. Dk is an underrated character and a2 overrates Mario way too highly. I personally think that this is even. I still say that my boy cable summed it up.

@a2- you are really doing some hardcore theorycrafting. If Dk couldn't get up from the ledge, he would be low tier
 

DKwill

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A2 I wish we could have played at that one Brooklyn tournament that you came too xD I probably have the most matchup experience vs Mario in the entire world.

Alright, let's do this. Cable was right in that if Mario keeps up the pressure (especially if DK lacks a double jump), DK is basically screwed. Mario's combo potential vs DK in particular is nuts since DK has that blind spot diagonally underneath him while he is in the air, which is thoroughly punished by Mario's up airs/up tilts at low percents. Stay on DK and space fireballs when out of his range altogether to enable grab/b-air/d-air approach mix ups, and it'll be really tough for DK to shake you off.

However, DK's spacing game is ridiculous. F-tilt is sooooo good vs Mario lol. D-tilt is very safe as well if spaced. Both clash with fireballs and DK can react to use any of his moves to clash with fireballs so that they barely hit, if ever. I prefer using single jabs to cancel them, walking around to space myself so that the jab connects with the fireball, allowing for any move afterward as a follow up should Mario choose to approach.

Retreating fastfall b-air > Mario. DK can literally do that all day and Mario will never get in. For the sake of extreme theorycrafting, your only choice is to like run in and power shield it or maybe FLUDD as a mixup which, which btw you are definitely underrating since it is very useful in disturbing our spacing/wall game. FLUDD usually causes frustration/panic which is probably it's best feature imo xD Not to mention if you FLUDD a DK while he is falling with a punch, he is cape fodder, and possibly dead.

Gimping is a VERY real threat for DK in this matchup. Can't express that enough, no matter how smart the DK is, his up-b is very predictable, and almost always has to travel horizontally. Simply read when DK is going to up-b if they are trying to sweet spot to the edge from an unsafe distance, and cape it... lol. Ask Kirinblaze, it's basically his job.

The only real way for DK to avoid this is to recover by not using up-b via reverse charge canceling with b-airs or by recovering very, very low so that the double jump occurs parallel with the edge, and the up-b sweetspot occurs vertically rather than horizontally. In this case, I recall being caped, yet since I was not moving in a horizontal direction, I was still able to grab the edge and recover (very rare case and cape should just be avoided at all costs lol).

In addition, FLUDD causes DK's up-b to stop in mid air for a few moments, in which case you can choose your best method of punishing, if he is coming in too high to sweet spot- cape. Otherwise? You can probably grab the edge or simply shield to set up a punish if you see that DK will not lagless land.

I'm merely grazing the surface of this very entertaining matchup, if you guys have any specific questions, feel free bc I know this matchup like the back of my hand. (pimp smackkkk)
 

Omari

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@Will : IMO, you should be on these threads more often. My ****** goin' in ballz deep son! (PM me how to get to Vinnie's house tomorrow using LIRR. Free tomorrow.)

@Kirin: WhurrU@!?!? I need some hype over here!

@CoolWhip: I'll attempt to upload some for you after tomorrow.
 

DKwill

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@Will : IMO, you should be on these threads more often. My ****** goin' in ballz deep son! (PM me how to get to Vinnie's house tomorrow using LIRR. Free tomorrow.)

@Kirin: WhurrU@!?!? I need some hype over here!
Kirin doesn't really peruse the boards much anymore lolol, nor do I. But I was notified that this matchup discussion was going on over in the DK boards so I came here to check it out. As for those DK vs Mario vids, Omari and I should probably create some tomorrow =P

We've been going pretty even lately, I just get the last KO hits in haha. It's making me truly think that the matchup is close to even, if only slightly in DK's favor if he really knows the matchup.
 

Ripple

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In addition, FLUDD causes DK's up-b to stop in mid air for a few moments, in which case you can choose your best method of punishing, if he is coming in too high to sweet spot- cape. Otherwise? You can probably grab the edge or simply shield to set up a punish if you see that DK will not lagless land.
this doesn't actually give mario a frame advantage while DK's up-b is already in motion. even though dk freezes in place its the same amount of time that it is to use fludd completely.

if you cape DK after fludd you could have done the same without using fludd. it does nothing to his up-b
 

DKwill

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this doesn't actually give mario a frame advantage while DK's up-b is already in motion. even though dk freezes in place its the same amount of time that it is to use fludd completely
True. I guess I can't say I know how it works exactly, but I know it definitely has its merits in the matchup.

I guess what I was referring to would be more for those not as experienced in the matchup, if anything it gives you time to think of what option to use next... lol. Not so useful for edge guarding through DK's up-b, but it's good in causing his aerials to linger and put DK in a bad position.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I can get some vids of that match-up after the weekend hopefully. I really don't think Mario wins this though.

:059:
 

Omari

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F.L.U.D.D. is mainly a positioning tool so you both are right in a sense. Granted, you can't take advantage right then & there but you can put DK in a worse position allowing you to gain the upper hand (if you know what you're doing). Also, F.L.U.D.D. can also be used to apply fear/pressure/panic on your opponent(s) pretty much like Will previously stated. Glad to have you DK mains here.
 

Juushichi

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Might be able to get some mid-level DK vs Mario as well.

Last game (tournament set rules) I played the DK in my city, it was on PS2 and I won with a conveyor belt aided reverse up smash. That doesn't really mean anything but was cool as ****. Dat hard read.
 

Matador

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This is still slight adv. DK. Don't really disagree with anything that's been said except for the ledge options thing. That's based off of experience though, and I haven't been up against a high caliber DK before.

While you DK's are here, what stages do you ban/CP vs Mario?

*goes to find Kirin*
 

Ripple

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While you DK's are here, what stages do you ban/CP vs Mario?
CP yoshi's and picto. if picto isn't there and you ban yoshi's then something like delfino. imo

no idea what to ban, probably FD or halberd
 

Inferno3044

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Kirin doesn't really peruse the boards much anymore lolol, nor do I. But I was notified that this matchup discussion was going on over in the DK boards so I came here to check it out. As for those DK vs Mario vids, Omari and I should probably create some tomorrow =P

We've been going pretty even lately, I just get the last KO hits in haha. It's making me truly think that the matchup is close to even, if only slightly in DK's favor if he really knows the matchup.
I feel like I haven't played you in so long.
 

SKidd

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In this MU I go wherever I feel like.


I would ban those really funky stages, like Picto and Castle Siege and such.
 

mars16

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Yes I Learned alot about this matchup (Eyes burnt Like coal)

But umm juusichi, u played ssbb on PS2?
 

vato_break

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i played will at apex too but, he kinda ***** my mario and his exact words were "LOL you suck and u are a noob and to go back to cali suckah, NJ in da house!!!"
 

fromundaman

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Useful MU stuff.

For the sake of extreme theorycrafting, your only choice is to like run in and power shield it or maybe FLUDD as a mixup which, which btw you are definitely underrating since it is very useful in disturbing our spacing/wall game. FLUDD usually causes frustration/panic which is probably it's best feature imo xD Not to mention if you FLUDD a DK while he is falling with a punch, he is cape fodder, and possibly dead.

More useful MU stuff.
That's some great advice, but mostly I am quoting this because of that part about FLUDD: This x1000. FLUDD is amazing for messing up spacing then punishing landings. Do this more people.


Also, I'll agree it feels like we limit DK's ledge options more than some characters (Though I haven't played high level DKs, so I could be wrong), but it's not like he CAN'T make it back. We may limit his options in that situations, but he still has options.


This MU feels close to even IMO, although maybe in DK's advantage due to KO power, but even if so, then very slightly.



Oh, and thanks Matador :D
 

Omari

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@Vato: Similar to me, Will's from NY (even though we're currently fused with NJ smashers to strengthen our skills) & we don't think you're noob. IMO, you're over-confident (you display it well on SWF & could be your down fall) but its cool.

@Frumundaman: Thanks for your support, you're definitely right that we bros should stick together & I appreciate that bro.
 

DKwill

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i played will at apex too but, he kinda ***** my mario and his exact words were "LOL you suck and u are a noob and to go back to cali suckah, NJ in da house!!!"
LOL I wouldn't even say something like that behind your back =P I just remember me asking you for a MM and you were like "But I main MK... are you sure?" Knowing that I play DK lolol.

I'm glad we got a set in DK vs Mario bc I wanted to see if my matchup experience was truly as in depth as I thought. I realized it's a combination of that and my gimmicky playstyle that completely baffles the west coast ^_^
 

MysteryRevengerson

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Me and 2fast are good friends and I've played this match-up a lot, and at first, I got wrecked horribly. Since then I've become better at the match up, and I think the match-up is definitely even. Will summed it all up pretty well.
 

Matador

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Yep, even or DK's slight advantage.

To Win: Get inside, stay inside 'till kill percentages or until you have the opportunity to get him offstage...whichever comes first.

Look Out For: Dsmash, Fsmash, Neutral B, and anything that'll get you killed super early. Ftilt/SHFFBair/Dtilt which keep us out. And research his upB shenanigans...because they are numerous.

Ban: Picto/Yoshi's/Delfino

CP: FD, Halberd, or somewhere our approaching/killing/gimping become easier since that's what we struggle with in this match-up.

Tips n Tricks
: Fireballs clank(?) with Ftilt and Dtilt. SHFFBair apparently ***** Mario's approach outside sliding shield. Mario takes advantage of DK's blindspot diagonally beneath him with Utilts and Uairs and the like. DK wants to keep you out. You want to get in. DK no like when u get in...so do it as often as you can, as unpredictably as you can.

Videos: No vids cuz Kirin's a douche and does not love you anymore. (Lurve u long time Kirin <3)

MU Classification
: DKs are mostly saying even. Marios are mostly saying slight DK advantage. Obviously this is one of those politically humble type things...both sides believe they have a heavy advantage in secret. For now though, either even or slight adv DK is fine.
 

Omari

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My fault for telling you guys that I'll have videos of me & Will playing (he couldn't make it to Vinnie's Birthday Party & its not his fault at all) the Mario:DK MU.

We'll be at Pound V so members who're coming can watch us brawl live (we'll see if videos can be uploaded).

@Will: Didn't find out that you couldn't make it until the last minute (untill I arrived at Vinnie's house which I was still waiting for a while at Rockville Centre) but its cool bro. Sorry to hear about you not feeling well & I hope you get better soon!!!
 

DKwill

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Btw, fun fact. The first time I ever played as DK vs Mario in one of the first NYC tournaments I attended back in 2008, I got 3 stocked. He caped my up-b all three times xD He then proceeded to d-air spike me a lot with Ness when I took him to Jungle Japes. I guess I was pretty trash =/

Moral of the story, if DK doesn't save his jump vs Mario, it's free.

Btw I'm feeling a little better, thanks Omari. I still have a few lingering effects but I'm hoping to be completely over it soon =)
 

A2ZOMG

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I'm honestly sick of this kind of theory craft. you can't react to DK's ledge options perfect every time of probably even half the time.
More like bad players or people who just don't know matchups can't do that consistently. It appalls me how many players suck at edgetrapping. Even pros.

When DK is over 100%, it is extremely easy to tell the difference between his ledgejump, ledgestand, ledge attack, and ledgehop airdodge and punish accordingly. His ledgeroll is slightly harder to cover, but at the same time it's the most punishable of his options.

I expect the average player who spends time learning DK's animations would be able to at MINIMUM punish DK's ledge options 60% of the time. He's just by far too limited to get up from the ledge safely against anyone who knows how to edgetrap. This is stuff I do against the DK main in my area, and it is stuff that I don't think is actually hard to do given that DK gives you FOREVER to react to and recognize his different ledge getup options when he's over 100%. Edgetrapping DK is about as powerful if not more powerful than option select safe jumps on wakeup in SF4 in terms of how many options can be reliably covered for free.

Given that Mario combos DK to high damage fairly easily when he gets in, his main goal is to simply control the hell out of DK on the ledge once DK is at 100% and above. Gimps are nice but not necessary given that getting a TON of guaranteed damage and potential kills can be arranged from proper edgetrapping alone.
 

~ Gheb ~

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No offense A2 ... but as far as I'm aware you neither have a lot of offline videos nor tournament placings to show. I have no problem with that but ... you definitely shouldn't be the one to say stuff like "only bad players do that" when you can't prove that you are better yourself.

:059:
 

Kanzaki

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No offense A2 ... but as far as I'm aware you neither have a lot of offline videos nor tournament placings to show. I have no problem with that but ... you definitely shouldn't be the one to say stuff like "only bad players do that" when you can't prove that you are better yourself.

:059:
Wow someone that's not me is saying it now xD
 

Kanzaki

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Hi gaiz, i play'd DK liek twice so i'm jezus christ wit him and erybody els is bad wit him so listen to me.

dk's side b in to a fuly carred donkey pnch, tats teh supa comb0
 

A2ZOMG

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No offense A2 ... but as far as I'm aware you neither have a lot of offline videos nor tournament placings to show. I have no problem with that but ... you definitely shouldn't be the one to say stuff like "only bad players do that" when you can't prove that you are better yourself.

:059:
Yeah, I know I should be saving more replays of this matchup. It's something a lot of us need to do. For your information, I just played this matchup in tournament last Saturday. I had to play SRK's DK in losers finals here. Note that I beat ViceGrip in losers as well. http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=11320

This does NOT change that DK is extremely easy to edgetrap, and that you can at least cover basically 4 out of 5 of his ledge getup options on reaction for free damage, resets, and potential kills. It isn't even just bad players who suck at this. I could point out countless examples of RANKED players who just fail at edgetrapping and don't realize it's extremely effective in several matchups. Almost universally, edgetrapping is an underdeveloped strategy in the current metagame. I had to tell UTD Zac that G&W could Up-smash out of shield against several ledge attacks to give you an idea of how even ranked players don't understand how to edgetrap effectively.

Trying to gimp DK in my personal experience is too much of a gambling commitment when I consider how good edgetrapping is. While gimping him with Cape or F-air is good, you usually need a good read to gimp DK, and if you do it wrong, he usually gets back on stage safely. If you simply go the conservative route, you can keep DK offstage and on the ledge for virtually as long as you like until you want to KO him, especially once his damage exceeds 100% (which most Mario users should NOT have trouble getting DK to, given that you can combo and control him well). B-airing DK out of his recovery or covering his ledge getup options is easy enough to do on reaction, and is what I would recommend instead of trying to gimp him, given that it requires far fewer hard reads or guesses.
 

Omari

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Okay this is getting out of hand.

@A2ZOMG: IMO, People aren't friendly with you not because you don't help out with the Mario community (I respect what you do). Here's what I think (know) your problem is...you don't know how to talk to people (very poor communication) even virtually. Saying things like "people suck at edge-trapping" can really offend the smashers who're actually attempting to improve themselves as players (& people) overall. Granted, I may be a newcomer to this site but I'm definitely not a newcomer to smash (the whole series at that) & IMO, you'd have a hell of a lot more respect from your fellow members if you didn't take shots so often as you do.

Thanks for your time.
 

Matador

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This is kinda normal for A2, Omari...lol

Not that I'm trying to stop you from trying to change things. Just saying, A2's been handling match-up discussions and whatnot like this since like...Melee.
 
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