Matchup Discussion: Donkey Kong

[FlyingFrenchman]

Might be able to get some mid-level DK vs Mario as well.

Last game (tournament set rules) I played the DK in my city, it was on PS2 and I won with a conveyor belt aided reverse up smash. That doesn't really mean anything but was cool as ****. Dat hard read.

I hate that stage section (and the wind one). Never again, haha. Those were some pretty good matches though.

On the matchup:

Learn to deal with DK's up-b shenanigans, or you'll end up eating a lot of unnecessary damage/KO moves.

Watch out for shield pressure. I love breaking shields, and it's fairly easy to do to mario if he gets careless while trying to stay on top of me. A fully charged f-smash, u-smash, or a 9-wind will KO you at stupidly low percents.

I think some of mario's best stage options are FD, smashville, lylat, and possibly frigate if you feel like you have solid stage control. Take dk to bland stages with few platforms (and high platforms if there are any). Try to avoid letting dk take you to YI, pictochat, japes, stages with low ceilings (imo, some people may disagree with me here, but I'm extremely comfortable with low ceilings in this mu), and janky stages in general.

Other than that, I don't think there's a whole lot of advice I can give that hasn't already been said: play aggressive, take stage control if you can, combo, and don't get careless.

A2: Believe me, we know that DK's ledge options are less than stellar at above 100%, but this is a reality that we deal with and compensate for in every one of our matchups, and mario is far from the worst that we have to deal with. Regardless, you're severely oversimplifying DK's ledge options.

Overall, I feel like this matchup is very even, possibly slightly mario's favor on bland stages, slightly dk's favor on "janky" stages. Never outside of the 55:45/45:55 range no matter what the cp is. Mario combos us pretty hard and he is fairly good at taking stage control, but I think DK has much better ground spacing options and KOs much more easily.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I was actually playing this matchup in tournament just last Saturday against SRK, and I do distinctly recall getting a LOT of damage from smart edgetraps. Despite the fact that it is ENTIRELY possible to react to and recognize at least 4 out of 5 of DK's ledge options and get pretty high reward from it, N-airs if well spaced will cover those 4 options (basically everything that isn't the ledgeroll, which is ledgestand, ledgehop, ledgejump, and ledge attack) and keep DK on the ledge.

DK's ledge game becomes okay on stages like YI where the invincible Up-B has to be blocked for the entire duration, which is not something Mario likes to do with a below average shield radius. On most stages though where it usually isn't possible to perform that exploit generally speaking no character has to work hard to edgetrap DK for a ton of reliable damage to offset DK's weight advantage. Sure it's a universal advantage to every character, but that makes it only matter more in DK's matchups.

In general though I feel a lot of players, including ranked players simply just don't know how to edgetrap effectively, and that you don't need to gimp DK if you focus on safe edgeguards for chip damage and when you realize how limited he is on the ledge in comparison to 90% of the cast. Comboing DK is amazing not for necessarily bringing him to KO damage, but to keep him in a bad position once his damage exceeds 100%.

 

[Omari]

Personally, I really appreciate your example(s) regarding edge-trapping Donkey Kong (DK). Let's take it a step further & give a more in depth look at how to edge-trap effectively (As many examples (both sides) as you can display A2ZOMG) as Mario. Thanks.

 

[Juushichi]

@Frenchman

I also found it pretty difficult to deal with Dsmash on block. That thing is ****ing scary.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Personally, I really appreciate your example(s) regarding edge-trapping Donkey Kong (DK). Let's take it a step further & give a more in depth look at how to edge-trap effectively (As many examples (both sides) as you can display A2ZOMG) as Mario. Thanks.

GOOD Edgetrapping is more than just reads, and is about knowing animations and reacting consistently, and to a lesser extent picking choices that cover options well.

If you see DK preparing to ledgejump (this animation imo is EXTREMELY obvious regardless of whether or not he's above or below 100%), U-air out of shield is usually the best option.

If you can identify the difference between ledgestand and ledge attack, shieldgrab the ledgestand, pick any Smash out of shield against ledge attack. Telling the difference between DK's <100% ledge attack and ledgestand is almost brain dead easy given that his ledge attack starts up really fast, and his ledge stand is really slow. DK generally wants to wait for an opportunity to land that ledge attack, so shielding next to the ledge limits him. When he's over 100%, you have to actually pay attention and wait until you see his arm wind back before deciding on shieldgrabbing or holding shield.

N-air or U-smash out of shield on reaction to ledgehop airdodge. If he tries to get cheeky with a ledgehop aerial or headbutt, either N-air oos asap if he's close, or drop shield D-smash if you have shield to spare.

Covering the ledgeroll generally requires a bit of conditioning from my experience, although IF you call it, it's a free Smash. Given that you can basically cover everything else out of shield (or with well-spaced N-airs), you should be on the lookout for DK being conditioned to ledgeroll to escape your pressure. On PS1's Rock Transformation, shield covers EVERYTHING given that the transformation limits ledgeroll distances.

DK's options to edgetrap you are kinda annoying given he has fairly long ranged Smashes that have massive knockback, but fortunately all of them are laggy, so if baited properly, can be used as an opportunity to get back on the stage safely. Generally speaking, your options such as ledgestand, ledgeroll, ledge hop airdodge, and ledge attack aren't very useful here given that he can basically kinda cover your ledgeroll and ledge attack at the same time with his D-smash (and while punishing the ledgestand consistently is not easy for him, usually you will be forced to shield and get pushed off the ledge), so your main option against DK is pretty much just Cape Stalling and baiting his movements until you find a safe moment to ledgehop B-air. Ledgejumping while DK is in ending lag also works, although you still have to find a way to get back to the ground, which will require you to know how he wants to juggle you and picking wisely between Cape Stalling, airdodging, B reversals, etc. Likewise if DK is waiting with shield, a well-spaced B-air (or ledgehop D-air) CAN be safe on block.

 

[Ripple]

as much emphasis you put on telling the difference between edge get ups, and how easy you make it seem, you should make a video showing the differences and comparing them to each other with slow down or something.

 

[Omari]

Thanks A2ZOMG for helping me better understand edge-trapping.

at ledge:

DK's damage 100-:
1. Get Up>DK's legs hike up at the same time & it's hands move closer to the ledge.
2. Get Up Attack>DK's right leg hikes up higher.
3. Jump>DK's jump is similar below (100+) but with faster frames.
4. Roll>DK's hands don't move.

DK's damage 100+:
1. Get Up>DK's right leg lifts up with sound.
2. Get Up Attack>DK's right leg lifts up with no sound.
3. Jump>DK holds the ledge with it's left hand only (& poses like he's holding a vine in the jungle).
4. Roll>DK shakes legs & flips to fourth light (Smash Ville (SV) tested) on either side.

Another difference (to better overall understanding) between Get Up & Get Up Attack (100+) is DK's hand placement on the stage.

1. Get Up>DK's left hand moves before his right & it's right hand is placed further away from to ledge.
2. Get Up Attack>DK's left hand moves after his right & it's right hand is placed closer to the ledge.

 

[Inferno3044]

So I'm going to reread this whole discussion. I have to play Will in pools and I wanna win.

 

[Omari]

So I'm going to reread this whole discussion. I have to play Will in pools and I wanna win.

Or you can just watch me & Will MM each other.

 

[Matador]

You got this Inferno. Just remember it's one of our few even match-ups.

 

[Flameleon]

-DK´s range is the main issue here, work on it, abuse landing traps and force him to be above you. Here u can use our trademark combo to change the tides of the battle and keep him facing you, unless you wanna get Bair´d. Rack damage and kill without rushing things will be your duty.

MU ratio: advantage -

 

[Coolwhip]

I should had learn this mu b4 playing ook's dk offline. He's too good!

 

[KMFBrawler]

Again, I agree with Flameleon. I brawled a DK today, and got B-air'd. But I won.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Again I firmly believe that Mario does have slight advantage in this matchup, but you have to be playing really on point, because messing up, especially if it's something silly like getting your attack airdodged and U-tilted/D-smashed really sucks. Like, it really just shouldn't happen statistically given how well Mario can cover DK's landing, but it's the kind of thing that where if it does happen, it can cost you the match.

DK is most annoying if all he does is B-air all day, which is why I strongly recommend learning how to crouch in this matchup. If he tries to play on the ground, it's not too hard to outdo him with your fireballs, F-smash, and Jabs (DK happens to be unable to shieldgrab in between hits of your Jab combo keep in mind).

And again, I believe the best strategy for beating DK in general is getting him offstage and never letting him get back on his feet safely once his damage exceeds 100%.

 

[Inferno3044]

2fast reminded me that it's not too hard to gimp DK. Also I gotta work on getting my cape back up. I used to be so good at gimping and then I stopped doing it.

 

[lilchrome850]

I think you can punish a missed Ftilt or Dtilt with Fsmash. I'd have to test it though.

I don't think he can shieldgrab a spaced Fsmash on shield though. I think it pushes him too far.



You actually don't have to be that close to edge trap him. Just stand back, toss fireballs, and wait for his decision.

Then punish it.




Does Ftilt/Dtilt cancel fireballs?

yes ftilt/dtilt cancels fireballs