Matchup Discussion: Donkey Kong

[Calebyte]

Donkey Kong​

Topics to Discuss

• How do we win?
• What do we watch out for?
• Stages to BAN/CP?
• Tips/Tricks when fighting this character?
• Videos?
• MU classification?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Mario beats DK really slightly. DK is easy for Mario to control in every definition of the word. You can't screw up much against him given he'll punish a mistake fairly hard, but otherwise Mario loves pretty much everything about DK. Big, easy to juggle, easy to edgetrap, not too hard to bait into F-smash. The kill will come to you as long as you are patient and capitalize carefully.

 

[Juushichi]

I could see a slight adv in out favor vs DK on much of the same merit that A2 mentioned. It's something I've got a fair amount of exp in (as well as Pit vs DK, strangely enough) and a MU I think the DK's would enjoy discussion on too.

 

[steep]

I actually think that the MU with DK is even, if not slightly in DK's favor. DK's ftilt, dtilt, and bair outrange all of our approach options, and all three come out with very little startup lag. I play a DK main quite often and I am constantly having to think of new ways to deal with him. Even if we appoach-shield, a good DK will still have attacked with enough distance to get out another attack before you can punish his hit on your shield. Ftilt is a good example of this, and his dtilt is just ridiculous. I think the only things we have over DK are fireballs, gimp capability (good DK's can be hard to gimp though), and combo ability, IF you can get inside. Our longest ranged close combat moves, such as ftilt and bair, get outranged easily by a lot of DK's arsenal.

 

[A2ZOMG]

See though, a lot of DK's moves can also be whiff punished on reaction with reverse F-smash, which does in fact outreach all of DK's attacks, except maybe his Down-B? You don't want to challenge that move on the ground.

DK's ground game anyhow is of little concern for Mario given that he's rather whiff punishable. His B-air is kinda annoying although crouching under it helps a lot.

You don't really need to gimp DK if you know how to edgetrap him. DK's ledge getup options are among the worst in the game by far especially when his damage exceeds 100%. If you know his animations, you can basically react to everything he does.

D-air like autopwns DK in close range and like never fails to juggle him, but I think everyone knew that.

 

[Juushichi]

That it is.

Also early % utilts are as stupid good for DK as they are for Mario here. Maybe I'm bad and can't figure out the DI, but it's messed me up early in stocks before.

 

[steep]

See though, a lot of DK's moves can also be whiff punished on reaction with reverse F-smash, which does in fact outreach all of DK's attacks, except maybe his Down-B? You don't want to challenge that move on the ground.

DK's ground game anyhow is of little concern for Mario given that he's rather whiff punishable. His B-air is kinda annoying although crouching under it helps a lot.

Down-B outranges everything, and yes a stutter-stepped fsmash will outreach his ftilt and dtilt, but both of these moves end with enough time for DK to shield before your ssfsmash connects. And then you are in shield-grab range.

You don't really need to gimp DK if you know how to edgetrap him. DK's ledge getup options are among the worst in the game by far especially when his damage exceeds 100%. If you know his animations, you can basically react to everything he does.

This is mostly right. The only thing I'd warn against is watching for DK doing a ff off the ledge to second jump-uair. That ****'ll kill. Also, I still think gimping is a legitimate option.

D-air like autopwns DK in close range and like never fails to juggle him, but I think everyone knew that.

This is assuming that DK allows you to approach him. By the time you are close enough to shdair him, DK could have ftilted you, stopping your approach. Don't underestimate those tilts.

 

[Matador]

Down-B outranges everything, and yes a stutter-stepped fsmash will outreach his ftilt and dtilt, but both of these moves end with enough time for DK to shield before your ssfsmash connects. And then you are in shield-grab range.

I think you can punish a missed Ftilt or Dtilt with Fsmash. I'd have to test it though.

I don't think he can shieldgrab a spaced Fsmash on shield though. I think it pushes him too far.

This is mostly right. The only thing I'd warn against is watching for DK doing a ff off the ledge to second jump-uair. That ****'ll kill. Also, I still think gimping is a legitimate option.

You actually don't have to be that close to edge trap him. Just stand back, toss fireballs, and wait for his decision.

Then punish it.

This is assuming that DK allows you to approach him. By the time you are close enough to shdair him, DK could have ftilted you, stopping your approach. Don't underestimate those tilts.

Does Ftilt/Dtilt cancel fireballs?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Down-B outranges everything, and yes a stutter-stepped fsmash will outreach his ftilt and dtilt, but both of these moves end with enough time for DK to shield before your ssfsmash connects. And then you are in shield-grab range.

If you're getting your F-smash shielded for trying to whiff punish him, you just need better reactions.

F-tilt hits frame 9-11ish, ends on frame 33. That's relatively easy to whiff punish with F-smash provided you're at the proper spacing.

His D-tilt is safer on whiff, except SH fireballs generally will discourage it.

This is mostly right. The only thing I'd warn against is watching for DK doing a ff off the ledge to second jump-uair. That ****'ll kill. Also, I still think gimping is a legitimate option.

DK's U-air has no horizontal range. If you're in range to D-smash his regular ledge stand, you're safe from that except on transparent stages like Halberd or Delfino lol.

This is assuming that DK allows you to approach him. By the time you are close enough to shdair him, DK could have ftilted you, stopping your approach. Don't underestimate those tilts.

Except his F-tilt actually is not all that safe...his B-air is more of a hassle to work around, although you can duck under that one.

 

[steep]

Does Ftilt/Dtilt cancel fireballs?

Yes if his actual hand connects with the fireball, but you can toss a fireball over his hand and it'll still hit I'm pretty sure.

Oh and by the way A2ZOMG, I don't think crouching is really that great. If you crouch, DK can ff his bair and turn around and dtilt before you can do anything besides shield, which you could have just done in the first place.

 

[Juushichi]

Steep, the shieldstun on bair isn't that good that he can do that. Plus if you do have tap-jump on (or if you're fast enough otherwise), you can up-B OOS.

 

[A2ZOMG]

double post

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yes if his actual hand connects with the fireball, but you can toss a fireball over his hand and it'll still hit I'm pretty sure.

Oh and by the way A2ZOMG, I don't think crouching is really that great. If you crouch, DK can ff his bair and turn around and dtilt before you can do anything besides shield, which you could have just done in the first place.

By crouching, you force DK to do something that requires more telegraphed commitment to actually hit you. This is a BIG deal. Conditioning DK to be more predictable is exactly what you want him to do. Once you teach him that rising B-airs are not wise to do, you are free to pick apart the rest of his game. F-tilts are whiff punishable with F-smash and sometimes are really just not safe on block. D-tilt and DownB use is discouraged with intelligently spaced fireballs. The time it takes for DK to space a SHFF B-air a punishable commitment that you can anti-air DK out of fairly easily, or powershield on reaction.

I believe you somewhat underestimate how good fireballs are against DK, and how much DK wants to use his B-air to wall Mario.

 

[vato_break]

Wow i never thought of crouching! that sounds ****, i should do that more. I don't know much about this matchup i played cable a few times and i was able to beat him(he said my mario was fast) so im thinking playing fast does us good in this matchup? I'm not so sure

 

[Inferno3044]

Cable is good. Unfortunately he doesn't get to play much (at least tourney wise). I've played friendlies against him a while back. vato is more or less right. You gotta find your way in and just wreck. Dk wins by being able to keep you out of his face with his amazing range.

Stage wise I would wanna ban delfino. Dk is really good there.

@a2- If a DK is going to whiff all their moves, they are a bad player and its a very poor argument. Most whiffed moves in the game are punishable by fsmash

 

[A2ZOMG]

Inferno, good players bait and good players DO get baited.

If the threat of F-smash alone forces DK to be more conservative about sticking out a move (given that a lot of what DK does is rather whiff punishable), this is an advantage you can use to get in his face. The idea I'm trying to make clear is that DK has a very limited poking game that Mario can exploit to get in with relative ease, and it goes without saying that Mario is strong against DK up close.

DK is a character that Mario can bait fairly easily, just given that the sheer range and leanback on Mario's F-smash happens to work rather well against DK's strongest zoning range.

 

[fromundaman]

I can't really explain how I play this MU, but it is one of my most fun MUs in this game.
In fact, can we just agree that this MU is the best MU ever?

I find that generally speaking it's pretty even, but you basically have to run around just outside of his attack range, and pepper him with fireballs until you see an opening, at which point you combo him to hell, get him on a ledge, and ledge trap him. I mean, that's over-simplified, but yeah.

That being said, be careful not to get comboed, and if you mess up, he punishes HARD.

Yeah... I guess my input isn't very useful... *disappears*

 

[Inferno3044]

I know it's useful, but to me it sounds like you're saying DK is going to continuously whiff his moves. Just giving how I interpreted it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Cable]

Just apply alot of pressure against DK with Mario don't let him take over. Play safe and don't be wreckless

 

[Matador]

I know it's useful, but to me it sounds like you're saying DK is going to continuously whiff his moves. Just giving how I interpreted it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You can make people whiff, dawg. People in SSF4 do it all the time thru footsies.

I do it all the time with Mario...which is how I land Fsmash so often.

It's easy to make people whiff when they're playing overly defensive. Just bait stuff and they'll try too hard to punish you.

Smart DK players will be looking out for this kinda thing though, and will be doing their fair share of baiting as well to make us mis-space or whiff stuff.

 

[Inferno3044]

Just apply alot of pressure against DK with Mario don't let him take over. Play safe and don't be wreckless

Cable is the best. Are you going to Pound?

 

[mars16]

........I just want to now what whiff means..

Please

 

[Matador]

When you do an attack and miss.

Usually just barely...so you're in range of punishment.

 

[Matt07]

Really difficult match-up for me. Donkey Kong can live for a very long, his b-air spacing is much better than ours. He also KO's us a lot earlier then we KO him.

 

[Matador]

That's the big thing here...it's ridiculously easy for the tide of this match to shift in DK's favor...and it usually only happens because of one screw-up on our part.

 

[Omari]

........I just want to now what whiff means..

Please

Whiff (slang) means to mess up (or **** up).

Example: "Yo, I jus whiffed my free cape on dis *****". Means you missed to hit (or didn't do what you intended to) the opponent(s).

 

[SKidd]

Space well and don't be tricked into falling for his power attacks,
combo when you get the chance,
and don't force the kill too much.

60:40 Italian pumber at the most; 50:50 if the DK knows the matchup well.


Also watch out for bair, I hear it's pretty ****



And isn't whiffing the orange sparks? Or is that still called phantom hit?

 

[Matador]

Nah, that's not whiffing.

...though, I'm unsure of whether or not it's considered a phantom hit. Does it do dmg when the orange sparks come out? If not, then no, prolly not.

 

[Inferno3044]

To whiff a move means that you missed. The orange sparks are phantom hits.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Phantom hits in Brawl do not do damage. I don't know why. It might be a developer oversight, since on the Dojo, it was stated they were supposed to do half damage.

Yeah like statistically, Donkey Kong barely has **** on Mario. Mario controls the pace better and generally speaking doesn't have as many weaknesses to exploit. DK's big range is kinda annoying, but you have answers for it given that DK is limited, and you have fireballs/F-smash. And once you get close his options are almost zero provided you pressure intelligently.

But a mistake is very costly, much like in the Snake matchup.

If you play it right consistently, you generally shouldn't lose to any DK player. Just the good DK players will make sure that if and when you **** up, it costs you dearly.

Snake in high level play is a slight disadvantage for Mario. If you're good against Snake though, generally DK is easier. If you're on your game, vs DK is slightly your favor on most stages, though DK has a few CP stages you don't want to fight him on.

 

[Inferno3044]

Cable summed it up in 2 sentences on how Mario should play the MU. It's all based on your ability to pressure DK. If you can do it, then you will probably win. If DK can efficiently keep you out, you will probably lose. Simple as that. Also a tip Gunblade gave me is that dair is good on him. It gives good shield pressure and will eventually stab.

 

[Omari]

@Matador: May I know what whiff means (no sarcasm, if you know...let me know)? Thanks.

@Inferno: I been told you this (you usually watch me play Will) bro, lol...are you coming to Pound V (been promising you I'll play you & never got around to it )?

Generally speaking, bait DK, get DK airborne, combo/juggle/string the **** out of him, pressure him offstage (don't be greedy for kills) & bait a whiff (you can (one way to bait) force an up special due to DK's weight & superior ability to DI & SDI. Let him land onstage with the landing lag & mid air jump punish him) for the kill. Repeat process.

I'll talk more in depth later about this MU guys, thanks.

 

[fromundaman]

@Matador: May I know what whiff means (no sarcasm, if you know...let me know)? Thanks.

He already posted it, but here it is again.

When you do an attack and miss.

 

[Ripple]

I'm surprised that no one has said something along the lines of "just throw him offstage and cape him"

 

[Matador]

I'm surprised that no one has said something along the lines of "just throw him offstage and cape him"

Lol, that doesn't work, silly...

...or does it?? O_O

Thanks @ fromundaman. Gratz on mod!

 

[Omari]

@Fromundaman: That's what I said (I thought Matador was talking to me when he said, "that's not what whiff means".) before bro. Thanks.

@Matador: Thought you were telling me that my definition of whiff was wrong.

@Ripple: Cape does work but it will simple to do on free DK mains. You can bait (force) his up special (like I said previously) out & punish him with cape (very effective punish leaving your victim to fall helplessly to the abyss ha ha) along with other options (tools) that Mario has.

Note: F.L.U.D.D. + Cape or Cape + F.L.U.D.D. = Mario's BnB (Bread N Butta).

 

[Matador]

Yeah, I was referring to Skidd. My bad.

 

[Juushichi]

Ripple is aware, Omari.

Fireballing a Low DK should set up a good gimp. Maybe if you can sneak a good nair in to push him away just enough.

Cable has it right. Pressure DK. Pressure DK and pressure him some more. His shield is unfortunately not that good so dair and sometimes poking nair will help.

I'm unwilling to say that the MU is any more than 55:45 or slight adv in our favor. I honestly think it's even for the most part and your slight adv if you are comfortable on DK's CP. Might be the same for DK too, though. To make it even, that is.

Neu: Even
Our CP: Slight Adv
Theirs: Slight Disadv / Even

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm surprised that no one has said something along the lines of "just throw him offstage and cape him"

Good Mario users don't need that gimmicky ****. More importantly DK is free on the ledge anyway.

 

[Ripple]

DK has a lot of options on the ledge. more than you'd expect. he's not free

I honestly do not see how you guys even think its in mario's advantage. Mario juggles DK? so do a lot of characters. its something to expect when you play as DK. Mario might kill well for a low tier but it's still DK, you won't kill him until like 150% ( I don't want to hear any " half charged upsmash kills at 110% on DK and is easy to land" nonsense). DK is still DK and has no real exploits on characters, he can't juggle, he can't fallow up most of the time, He plays 1 hit wonders and keep away with everyone. playing against mario is no different. a few hits and your end death %. but its the burden of you to get in since you can't kill with most of your attacks like DK