• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Match-Up Export #7: Diddy Kong (Pre-progress)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Xiivi

So much for friendship huh...
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
20,342
Location
somewhere near Mt. Ebott
Things will get done when I actually have access to my own computer again (blah blah broken blah blah already explained this to Zhamy), I guess for now I'll start up some more match-up exports so you guys at least have other characters to discuss for now.
Planned Updates:
Links to Matches
Link to Diddy Kong Boards Fox Match-Up Discussion
Links to All Previous Diddy Kong Discussion from the Fox Boards
Stage Banning
Stage Striking
Stage Counter-Picking
Possible Secondaries
Chaingrab Specifics
Dealing with Opponent Projects
Utilizing your Own Projectiles
Approach
Defense
Recovery
Edgeguarding
Killing & Surviving
Frame Data Comparisons
Advantages & Disadvantages
Key Points
 

718_ROOKI3

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,175
Location
Nana locking Snake's all over New York City
Time to get started

Green = Great CP
Yellow = Fairly Good CP
Red = Bad/Wrong CP

Stage Striking: Battlefield, Yoshi's

Stage Banning: Smashville, Final D

Stage CP'ing: Rainbow, PS1, Norfair, Brinstar

Diddy Kong AKA Broken Kong

These are the moves I feel we need to know by frame data, so we know what to stay away from and what we can challenge

Frame Data

Bananas Frame 20(Appears)
Neu.B Frame 14
For.B Frame 19(Grab + Hit) Frame 4(Just Kick)

Fair Frame 6
Bair Frame 5
Dair Frame 13

Fsmash Frame 12
Dsmash Frame 6(Front) Frame 15(Back)

Dtilt Frame 4
Ftilt Frame 10

Dash Attack Frame 9

Banana Combo's/Tricks:

In order to get a great idea on this i'll make sue to make a vid.

1. Aerial Banana Dthrow *banana trip* Dair(re-grabs banana) Ground toss *banana trip* Upsmash

Anywhere from 0-10%

1. Ftilt *banana trip* Fsmash *banana trip* Upsmash
2. Ftilt *banana trip* Fsmash *banana trip* Fsmash
3. Ftilt *banana trip* Dair>JJC>Grab
4. Ftilt *banana trip* Dash attack>Utilt>Utilt
5. Ftilt *banana trip* Grab
5. Ftilt *banana trip* Dsmash

Anywhere from 15-20%

1. Ftilt *banana trip* Ftilt *banana trip* Ftilt *banana trip* Ftilt *banana trip*

Auto KO Trap

1. Ground toss *banana trip* Grab release *banana trip* Upsmash

There is a whole lot more but give me time.

Aerial Game
Ground Game
Approach
Defense
Surviving
Killing
Edge Game
 

Zephil

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
945
Location
Panama, Panama
that monkey is a pain in the (you know where)... most of the tourneys I get eliminated by this banana machine but thanks to this matches I learn some things about htis matchup. I would use R00KI3´s same format

Approach/Ground Game/Killing: simple, don´t approach. Approach is equal to a banana on your face... as almost most matches, one of your best friends is your lasers but you have to use SHL more than SHDL because Diddy is too small. The only reason you should approach is as mindgame as for example you run and you inmediatly put your reflector expecting that he throws a banana (which is very common, don´t know why though, is like seeing someone approach is a sign of danger and they can´t dodge or jump or shield, believe me, if they have a banana in his hand, banana is the main option). Reflector, reflector, reflector... very useful and most of the times that you reflect his bananas he fall in it and that is the perfect time ti take control of the match, this is the moment were fox needs to be the as aggresive as ever, you can use his bananas against him or u can go with your tipical combos as dair->utilt or you can grab him and dthrow him and follow him with lasers and then continue pressuring him. The moment the bananas are in your posession is the time to pressure him as much as you can. Killing moves: Usmash as always, diddy throws banana -> reflector-> he falls-> running usmash-> sexy death. Also uair can work wonders but you have to be precise with it because if you do it too late you can suffer from his strong dair. Bair has more distance that his bair so also is a good killing move. Oh I almost forgot, when you have the moment grab the bananas and throw it at him but you have to be careful with when and how you grab them because you can be punish if you make it in a bad moment, banana control is very important in this match. SHFair and SHNair are great to grab the banana before it touch ground and are very safe moves, also dash attack but is lest safe than the other two.

Laser Technique: SHL

Summary: Camp and have always ready your reflector, the moment his bananas are yours is your moment to pressure him. Remember reflect banana most of the time results in he falling because of it so be ready to punish that. Banana control is very important.

Defense: the most important part of the matchup. Flat areas are not safe so try to always be in a platform. Camp but don´t abbuse it because diddy is fast and he can approach faster than you expect, especially if he have banana in hand. Most of the time you see a banana in his hand, you should prepare your downB but remember that he has some mindgames with the bananas as he can throw them up or down instead of front so don´t be reflect happy and every time he has a banana. Shield is not very good option because the bananas can still hit your feet and dodge is very situational, use dodge when diddy is close to you and throws a banana as most of the time the banana would just pass over you, if you are far away DON´T DODGE because the banana would fall in your feets and you would fall, instead roll to his side instead or better, jump. Jumping is a very good way to evade the bananas but you have to measure well were to hit floor because you can be punish, if there is a platform above you, just jump over it.


Summary: Shield is not a good option in this match so don´t use it very much, jumping is your best way to evade bananas and great way to grab them if you SHFair or SHNair. Platforms are great and never stay in areas flat because those areas are were diddy is most dangerous. Also always have ready your reflector but don´t spam it.

Aerial Game: this monkey has everything: good approach, excellent ground game, and a equally excellent aerial game. Fair and Bair are dangerous, especially Fair that have good knockback and can be use to kill you. Evade them the most you can, also Uair is good for juggling bust is more difficult to connect than the other so they would not use it that much. If you are below him be careful of his Dair, is a very strong spike that can kill you in low percents. The good thing is that your Dair is better than his Uair so if you are over him you have the advantage, below him is risky because of the spike but you have faster attacks thatn his Dair so if you do it at the right moment, you can connect an Fair or an Uair. Front or beside him are the worst places you could be so evade those areas at all cost. He defeats your aerial game so is better to stay on the ground most of the time.

Summary: His aerial game is better but you still have some aerials that can work great especially below him: Fair and Uair. His Fair and Bair are really dangerous so try to not get close to him in the air or you would pay, your best options are above him or below him.


Edge Game: Diddy has a great recovery and is dangerous to try to edgeguard him outside of the stage. His sideB can has grab personalitypersonality if he don´t press B again so be careful and shining his UpB results in a barrel explosion so don´t ever think about it. Your best chance to edgeguard him is when he is directly below from the edge, that is a safe spot to shine if he uses the sideB as he can´t grab you when your are above him and as most UpB moves if you calculate the time correctly you can edgeguard him by grabbing the edge.

P.S. I apologize for any gramatical fail or disaster. English is not my main language but I try the best I can. Of course corrections are the best way to help me improve so if you see something completely out of gramatical tolerance just tell me and I would try not make that mistake again. Thanks
 

718_ROOKI3

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,175
Location
Nana locking Snake's all over New York City
that monkey is a pain in the (you know where)... most of the tourneys I get eliminated by this banana machine but thanks to this matches I learn some things about htis matchup. I would use R00KI3´s same format

Approach/Ground Game/Killing: simple, don´t approach. Approach is equal to a banana on your face... as almost most matches, one of your best friends is your lasers but you have to use SHL more than SHDL because Diddy is too small. The only reason you should approach is as mindgame as for example you run and you inmediatly put your reflector expecting that he throws a banana (which is very common, don´t know why though, is like seeing someone approach is a sign of danger and they can´t dodge or jump or shield, believe me, if they have a banana in his hand, banana is the main option). Reflector, reflector, reflector... very useful and most of the times that you reflect his bananas he fall in it and that is the perfect time ti take control of the match, this is the moment were fox needs to be the as aggresive as ever, you can use his bananas against him or u can go with your tipical combos as dair->utilt or you can grab him and dthrow him and follow him with lasers and then continue pressuring him. The moment the bananas are in your posession is the time to pressure him as much as you can. Killing moves: Usmash as always, diddy throws banana -> reflector-> he falls-> running usmash-> sexy death. Also uair can work wonders but you have to be precise with it because if you do it too late you can suffer from his strong dair. Bair has more distance that his bair so also is a good killing move. Oh I almost forgot, when you have the moment grab the bananas and throw it at him but you have to be careful with when and how you grab them because you can be punish if you make it in a bad moment, banana control is very important in this match. SHFair and SHNair are great to grab the banana before it touch ground and are very safe moves, also dash attack but is lest safe than the other two.

Laser Technique: SHL

Summary: Camp and have always ready your reflector, the moment his bananas are yours is your moment to pressure him. Remember reflect banana most of the time results in he falling because of it so be ready to punish that. Banana control is very important.

Defense: the most important part of the matchup. Flat areas are not safe so try to always be in a platform. Camp but don´t abbuse it because diddy is fast and he can approach faster than you expect, especially if he have banana in hand. Most of the time you see a banana in his hand, you should prepare your downB but remember that he has some mindgames with the bananas as he can throw them up or down instead of front so don´t be reflect happy and every time he has a banana. Shield is not very good option because the bananas can still hit your feet and dodge is very situational, use dodge when diddy is close to you and throws a banana as most of the time the banana would just pass over you, if you are far away DON´T DODGE because the banana would fall in your feets and you would fall, instead roll to his side instead or better, jump. Jumping is a very good way to evade the bananas but you have to measure well were to hit floor because you can be punish, if there is a platform above you, just jump over it.


Summary: Shield is not a good option in this match so don´t use it very much, jumping is your best way to evade bananas and great way to grab them if you SHFair or SHNair. Platforms are great and never stay in areas flat because those areas are were diddy is most dangerous. Also always have ready your reflector but don´t spam it.

Aerial Game: this monkey has everything: good approach, excellent ground game, and a equally excellent aerial game. Fair and Bair are dangerous, especially Fair that have good knockback and can be use to kill you. Evade them the most you can, also Uair is good for juggling bust is more difficult to connect than the other so they would not use it that much. If you are below him be careful of his Dair, is a very strong spike that can kill you in low percents. The good thing is that your Dair is better than his Uair so if you are over him you have the advantage, below him is risky because of the spike but you have faster attacks thatn his Dair so if you do it at the right moment, you can connect an Fair or an Uair. Front or beside him are the worst places you could be so evade those areas at all cost. He defeats your aerial game so is better to stay on the ground most of the time.

Summary: His aerial game is better but you still have some aerials that can work great especially below him: Fair and Uair. His Fair and Bair are really dangerous so try to not get close to him in the air or you would pay, your best options are above him or below him.


Edge Game: Diddy has a great recovery and is dangerous to try to edgeguard him outside of the stage. His sideB can has grab personalitypersonality if he don´t press B again so be careful and shining his UpB results in a barrel explosion so don´t ever think about it. Your best chance to edgeguard him is when he is directly below from the edge, that is a safe spot to shine if he uses the sideB as he can´t grab you when your are above him and as most UpB moves if you calculate the time correctly you can edgeguard him by grabbing the edge.

P.S. I apologize for any gramatical fail or disaster. English is not my main language but I try the best I can. Of course corrections are the best way to help me improve so if you see something completely out of gramatical tolerance just tell me and I would try not make that mistake again. Thanks

Dang Zephil said alot so since you did this bro, i'll just do the frame data and small details you left out. Nice tho, i have a issue with diddy so im always going to read this
 

crifer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,078
Location
Germany, Koblenz
Dang Zephil said alot so since you did this bro, i'll just do the frame data and small details you left out. Nice tho, i have a issue with diddy so im always going to read this
yesterday i fought a diddy...
it was cool to pick his nana up, and camp him with shdl,
expecting me to throw the nana....
It´s a good position for you bc the nana is a good defense tool for you as well,
you can camp him, illusion away, camp more,
and if he throws a another nana shine....
It´s great^^
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
If you mean SDIing out of the second hit of fsmash (you can technically avoid the killing hit and only take the weak blow with good DI) it is probably harder for Fox because of fall speed.

And Alpha Zealot claims that Norfair is one of Diddy's best stages if they know how to play on it... Diddy's side b is godly there and if he camps the bottom platform you have very few options to approach, he controls it way too well.
 

718_ROOKI3

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,175
Location
Nana locking Snake's all over New York City
If you mean SDIing out of the second hit of fsmash (you can technically avoid the killing hit and only take the weak blow with good DI) it is probably harder for Fox because of fall speed.

And Alpha Zealot claims that Norfair is one of Diddy's best stages if they know how to play on it... Diddy's side b is godly there and if he camps the bottom platform you have very few options to approach, he controls it way too well.
yea the stage thing is true but fox is gayer than what people think XDXDXDXDXDXDXDXD
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
2,002
Location
Frisco you know
You guys are really impressing me with Fox lately, he's fun as hell just gets too gayed for my tastes but I'm definitely picking him up as a side character, we'll see where that goes.

/unrelevant
 

Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
I actually diagree with some things stated thus far in this thread.

First of all, this is one of the matches in which I suggest Foxes approach.
Any match involving Diddy becomes a struggle for control. Control of bananas, control of stage, control of characters. If you allow Diddy to have free run of the stage and his approach, that is where he excels in this game. Of course you shouldn't rush blindly in...and lasers are still useful, but if you have a shot at it, you should definitely apply pressure when and where you can. If you are pressuring / comboing him, he loses his game... he loses his bananas, and is overall a decent character without them, but not nearly as good as when he has them.

TLDR: If you properly approach and pressure, Diddy loses out on a lot of his incredibly scary banana control, giving you a much better shot here.

Secondly, Diddy's recovery is a huge weak point. He has several options while recovering, but Fox seems to be very well equipped to beat them. Rising Dair and Nair both beat out his Side-b, putting him in a very bad position... And if he has to resort to Barrels, another attack (if you have time), or an edgehog, and he dies... Knock him out with Dsmash to make him cover a large horizontal distance with little height... punish the recovery with Nair or Dair (or even a single/double hit Fair, really), then either land kill or get on the ledge, and Diddy dies.

TLDR: Fox is good at edgeguarding Diddy here. Dsmash has large horizontal knockback with little vertical. Dair, Fair, and Nair stop Side-B, and situationally stop second jump attacks. Then another attack (shine or nair) or an edgehog lands a kill.

Diddy is also pretty good at edgeguarding Fox, but I honestly believe Fox has the advantage here.

Fox is very good at controlling the bananas, as well, since he can pick them up with on of his safer move in SHFair. His speed and variety really allow him to use the Bananas in good ways, as well. Use your imagination here.

Fox has better on stage klling moves, as well. Usmash alone beats any killing option that Diddy has... Dsmash is an incredible setup to edgeguard Diddy. and Bair is a good spacing tool, really. Diddy's Fsmash and Dsmash are strong... and his Fair is a good killer (he has a couple others, but not worth mentioning here, really), but generally, Fox should be living to higher %s than Diddy due to Diddy's general lack of killing power. (overgeneralization, but I'm just saying Fox is a better killer here)

Diddy controls a ground game here... and it's very scary when properly executed. The match really swings back and forth as to who is controlling the match. We all know that Fox can completely control it...but Diddy is also capable of that. Really watch for any patterns here.

USE YOUR REFLECTOR SPARINGLY. Come on... that's just to easy to bait and punish. I would say use it fewer than 4 times in a match... if even that high. There are times that you can surprise the Diddy with it... but everybody knows by now that Fox has a reflector.


SUPER TLDR:

Ground game: really back and forth. Medium Advantage Diddy
Control Game: Really even
Air game: Slight advantage Fox, I guess
Killing: Advantage Fox
Edgeguarding vs. Recovery: Advantage Fox
Camping: slight advantage Fox, but kinda risky
Comboing/Continuation of attacks: very close here... gonna say even

Overall matchup score: anywhere from 4-6 to 6-4. I can't really tell. Very good match. I think Fox has a small advantage in the match, since he can correctly use bananas, manage control of the match, kill, and edgeguard quite well.

CP Stages:

Smashville, Lylat (hurts Diddy much worse than Fox), PS1
 

KheldarVII

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
633
Location
Ontario
NNID
redKheld
I've been training myself to completely adapt to Lylat. It's such an awesome stage. In the Diddy matchup, you would be hurting his banana tossing distance, recovery (obviously) and you have platforms to run away on. More time for lasers!
 

Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
Never ever thought of cp'ing lylat. How does it hurt diddy?
I've been training myself to completely adapt to Lylat. It's such an awesome stage. In the Diddy matchup, you would be hurting his banana tossing distance, recovery (obviously) and you have platforms to run away on. More time for lasers!
kheldar explained it pretty well...

I have said for quite a while that Lylat is a VERY good stage for Fox, and I honestly still believe that...

I understand most people's hatred of it, but with careful recovery, every other thing about the stage (and even the edges while edgeguarding) helps Fox. Well, the tilting stops lasers sometimes, but helps them other times... so that's a toss up.

The wide stage allows for a lot of room to maneuver, which is all important for Fox. The low platforms are also ideal for him, with Sh aerials and usmashes going through them.
Fox also has a lot of interesting platform play there, too...

in many cases, I feel that Lylat is one of Fox's better stages...
 

718_ROOKI3

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,175
Location
Nana locking Snake's all over New York City
kheldar Explained It Pretty Well...

I Have Said For Quite A While That Lylat Is A Very Good Stage For Fox, And I Honestly Still Believe That...

I Understand Most People's Hatred Of It, But With Careful Recovery, Every Other Thing About The Stage (and Even The Edges While Edgeguarding) Helps Fox. Well, The Tilting Stops Lasers Sometimes, But Helps Them Other Times... So That's A Toss Up.

The Wide Stage Allows For A Lot Of Room To Maneuver, Which Is All Important For Fox. The Low Platforms Are Also Ideal For Him, With Sh Aerials And Usmashes Going Through Them.
Fox Also Has A Lot Of Interesting Platform Play There, Too...

In Many Cases, I Feel That Lylat Is One Of Fox's Better Stages...
Lylat!!!!!!!!!! Grrr!!!!!!
 

Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
Lylat!!!!!!!!!! Grrr!!!!!!
This is really the opinion of most Fox players, but I feel it's time to (as a community) move past the Lylat hate.

The problem is... most people think Fox hates Lylat... so most people will CP it... so most Foxes ban it almost every match, and I think that's ridiculous.


Of course it depends on the matchup you are entering... your opponents character will perform well or badly on it, and that should be taken into consideration, but I really don't think Lylat should be an autoban, when there might be better ones out there.
 

718_ROOKI3

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,175
Location
Nana locking Snake's all over New York City
This is really the opinion of most Fox players, but I feel it's time to (as a community) move past the Lylat hate.

The problem is... most people think Fox hates Lylat... so most people will CP it... so most Foxes ban it almost every match, and I think that's ridiculous.


Of course it depends on the matchup you are entering... your opponents character will perform well or badly on it, and that should be taken into consideration, but I really don't think Lylat should be an autoban, when there might be better ones out there.
Fenrir your right, i played wes yesterday for offline practice and his diddy kong is really good plus the guy is a veteran. anyway we played diddy vs fox on lylat 4? 5? times. i won all the games... lylat is fun sometimes just the dumb stage tilts
 

Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
Fenrir your right, i played wes yesterday for offline practice and his diddy kong is really good plus the guy is a veteran. anyway we played diddy vs fox on lylat 4? 5? times. i won all the games... lylat is fun sometimes just the dumb stage tilts
Wes still plays?

Wow... Didn't even know that. I played the man in Melee. lol

For general counterpicking (with changes per matchup, of course), I believe Fox does quite well on:


Smashville
FD
PS1
Lylat
BF (really situational, because a lot of chars do well against Fox here)
Halberd
Castle Siege
Frigate
Brinstar
Sometimes Japes (if allowed)
 

Toronto Joe

Smash Master
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
4,580
Location
On MSN
lylat and frigate are easily foxs worst stages...its not worth the risk of playing there

vs diddy lylat is good though ill agree
 

718_ROOKI3

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
1,175
Location
Nana locking Snake's all over New York City
Wes still plays?

Wow... Didn't even know that. I played the man in Melee. lol

For general counterpicking (with changes per matchup, of course), I believe Fox does quite well on:


Smashville
FD
PS1
Lylat
BF (really situational, because a lot of chars do well against Fox here)
Halberd
Castle Siege
Frigate
Brinstar
Sometimes Japes (if allowed)
frigate, smashville is pretty difficult
 

Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
lylat and frigate are easily foxs worst stages...its not worth the risk of playing there

vs diddy lylat is good though ill agree
Nah, I completely disagree

Frigate is very good for Fox's mobility and adaptability... and for another point, which I think needs emphasis


Fox's recovery is VERY adaptable. It goes quite far, and you have a large number of different options with it. Through proper DI, you set yourself up (usually...some attacks send scary low, and those suck when you get hit by them) to come in near the stage from fairly high...but so you'll still need your jumps to get back on.

At this point, you have a double jump with Rising Fair, which is incredible for recovery placement, Shine stalls to avoid edge guarding, an Illusion (cancelable to several distances), and FireFox.

With these tool, you should almost always have an option to recover and avoid edgeguarding. Thus, with out without a ledge, you have the ability to at least make it hard for your opponent to attack you back out.

This is something that a LOT of characters in Brawl simply don't have... even some with Recoveries that are better than Fox's. They may be better, but they are basically one-trick ponies.

Therefore, I feel that quite a few characters are more hurt by the lack of a ledge than Fox is, if that makes any sense.

Zelda's and Marth's Up-B's ending lag REALLY hurts him on Frigate, for example. DDD as well. Other characters that I feel are given more trouble from Frigate in recovering than Fox is are:

Marth
Zelda
DDD
All tether chars
Diddy
ICs
Ike
DK
Bowser
Samus
Link
TL
Lucario (debateable with wall stall)
Sheik
Wolf
Ganon
CF
Mario
Luigi
Ness
lucas
Pit

Now this is all just my opinion here... and you're free to ask me why I think each of these...
An important note: I am not saying who can recover better on Frigate here. I am stating the characters that I feel are hurt worse by the lack of a ledge than Fox is. (hope that makes sense)

And I mean, that's 22 chars... that makes it a decent CP stage... especially since (at least for me) the rest of the stage is quite well suited for Fox.




And to Rookie...
Smashville's a bit cramped, but it is probably my favorite neutral... A6M really stands by it, as well. Don't have as many reasons for it, but I believe it to be a good stage for him
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
wait what?

Why would you CP PS1 or Norfair against a Diddy? Both of those are extremely good CP stages for us too. Granted, you shouldn't ban them, but I don't understand why you would CP either of them. Reasoning, please?

Diddy can camp the bottom platform on Norfair, and gg. His smashed side B is good for navigating between the ledges, and his monkey flip kick in general has high priority. Diddy can approach from both above and below. As aforementioned, camping with bananas on the bottom platform is a very powerful situation for a Diddy.

IMO, you should be CPing RC, Halberd, and maybe Brinstar? RC and Halberd both have loltastically low ceilings, and rising fair and Fox's general recovery is good on RC. Brinstar is just an odd stage for Diddy, although I'm not sure how it does for Fox.

I can't think of what to do as a Fox against a Diddy (I main Diddy, used to main Fox). While on paper, you'd want to pressure Diddy so he can't control the stage with his bananas, your approaches aren't that great and can easily be sheildgrabbed.

Diddy's Monkey Flip Kick is a great defensive and offensive tool; it has high priority and is often surprising. And for whatever reason, when Diddy just walks away from his opponent, it's amazing bait for an approach, even more so when he doesn't have a banana in his hand. However, a turn around monkey flip kick can beat out a lot of Fox's approaches, and the kick can be instantly buffered when the flip starts. When this happens, the landing lag can be L-cancelled by doing an airdodge right before landing, so it's much safer.

Defensively, you might be a little better off, but I'm not certain. Retreating SHDLs can slowly rack on much needed damage, and staying in the air and doing sheilds on the ground can dampen the effectiveness of Diddy's bananas. However, don't count out Diddy's sheild pressure game: things like GT banana->Dtilt->stutter step Fsmash can severely chip off a sheild if you're nervous and stay in it. Since you don't have good OoS options except for Upsmash if we're in killing percent (definitely don't forget about that, because you can punish aggression with it), Diddy can general do a safe banana throw, and if it hits a sheild, he can grab and throw.

Like Fenrir said, your Shine really isn't that effective. At all. A couple of times per match, it might work if predicted well. However, good or even competent Diddy's don't just throw a banana at you as soon as they get one; Diddy has a lot of banana mindgames. His dribbling acts as a psuedo-wavedash, and dashing at you and then dribbling back is very much like running and wavedashing back in Melee, and can bait a response. Among this are short hop downthrows; when he hits the ground again, he can do another glide-toss the instant he hits the ground. He can cancel his peanut gun into a glide toss. He can GT up if you have a shine up and be free to do whatever he wants. He can dtilt while holding a banana, along with perform a smash attack (although that usually requires you to put L or something as attack for it to be effective).

Diddy's mid-range game is really good. Like, really good. His fair outspaces a lot of things, and he can throw bananas and shoot peanuts to the point where he's not really camping but not really approaching either; he can engage his opponent at a safe distance.

IMO, you do trump Diddy at 3 things.

1. Gimping him. It's not super-easy to gimp Diddy, although you do well against him offstage. Like Fenrir said, your aerials beat out his side-B and rocket barrels. If Diddy tries to recover high, rising fair may work generally safely.

2. If you get a banana, camp with it. Instantly throwing it back at Diddy to try to do some sort of combo probably won't work that well. His dash attack and Fair are both good at picking up bananas thrown back at him. He also has another banana that he can spawn or probably already has at his own free will, that's often placed somewhere near him at his feet, just in case.

Camping back with SHDLs with a banana is really good. The banana gives you a better approach and defense, although in general you'd probably use it to punish the Diddy's mistakes as he tries to approach you (camping a Diddy with one of his bananas annoys him). So yeah, do that and punish his mistakes.

3. Killing, maybe? You both have little tricks to avoid getting killed. Diddy can camp by having one banana in his hand, one right in front of him, and fire peanuts, meaning if you try a running usmash or something, you trip. However, Fox transitions from the air to the ground really easily, so you could attempt to bait an approach, SH over him and dair to upsmash for a kill, or something.

In general, I think Diddy has a notable advantage. Not a huge, overwhelming, womg advantage, not even a big one, but IMO it's notably in his favor (for you number freaks, probably 55-45).
 

Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
wait what?

Why would you CP PS1 or Norfair against a Diddy? Both of those are extremely good CP stages for us too. Granted, you shouldn't ban them, but I don't understand why you would CP either of them. Reasoning, please?

Diddy can camp the bottom platform on Norfair, and gg. His smashed side B is good for navigating between the ledges, and his monkey flip kick in general has high priority. Diddy can approach from both above and below. As aforementioned, camping with bananas on the bottom platform is a very powerful situation for a Diddy.

IMO, you should be CPing RC, Halberd, and maybe Brinstar? RC and Halberd both have loltastically low ceilings, and rising fair and Fox's general recovery is good on RC. Brinstar is just an odd stage for Diddy, although I'm not sure how it does for Fox.

I can't think of what to do as a Fox against a Diddy (I main Diddy, used to main Fox). While on paper, you'd want to pressure Diddy so he can't control the stage with his bananas, your approaches aren't that great and can easily be sheildgrabbed.

Diddy's Monkey Flip Kick is a great defensive and offensive tool; it has high priority and is often surprising. And for whatever reason, when Diddy just walks away from his opponent, it's amazing bait for an approach, even more so when he doesn't have a banana in his hand. However, a turn around monkey flip kick can beat out a lot of Fox's approaches, and the kick can be instantly buffered when the flip starts. When this happens, the landing lag can be L-cancelled by doing an airdodge right before landing, so it's much safer.

Defensively, you might be a little better off, but I'm not certain. Retreating SHDLs can slowly rack on much needed damage, and staying in the air and doing sheilds on the ground can dampen the effectiveness of Diddy's bananas. However, don't count out Diddy's sheild pressure game: things like GT banana->Dtilt->stutter step Fsmash can severely chip off a sheild if you're nervous and stay in it. Since you don't have good OoS options except for Upsmash if we're in killing percent (definitely don't forget about that, because you can punish aggression with it), Diddy can general do a safe banana throw, and if it hits a sheild, he can grab and throw.

Like Fenrir said, your Shine really isn't that effective. At all. A couple of times per match, it might work if predicted well. However, good or even competent Diddy's don't just throw a banana at you as soon as they get one; Diddy has a lot of banana mindgames. His dribbling acts as a psuedo-wavedash, and dashing at you and then dribbling back is very much like running and wavedashing back in Melee, and can bait a response. Among this are short hop downthrows; when he hits the ground again, he can do another glide-toss the instant he hits the ground. He can cancel his peanut gun into a glide toss. He can GT up if you have a shine up and be free to do whatever he wants. He can dtilt while holding a banana, along with perform a smash attack (although that usually requires you to put L or something as attack for it to be effective).

Diddy's mid-range game is really good. Like, really good. His fair outspaces a lot of things, and he can throw bananas and shoot peanuts to the point where he's not really camping but not really approaching either; he can engage his opponent at a safe distance.

IMO, you do trump Diddy at 3 things.

1. Gimping him. It's not super-easy to gimp Diddy, although you do well against him offstage. Like Fenrir said, your aerials beat out his side-B and rocket barrels. If Diddy tries to recover high, rising fair may work generally safely.

2. If you get a banana, camp with it. Instantly throwing it back at Diddy to try to do some sort of combo probably won't work that well. His dash attack and Fair are both good at picking up bananas thrown back at him. He also has another banana that he can spawn or probably already has at his own free will, that's often placed somewhere near him at his feet, just in case.

Camping back with SHDLs with a banana is really good. The banana gives you a better approach and defense, although in general you'd probably use it to punish the Diddy's mistakes as he tries to approach you (camping a Diddy with one of his bananas annoys him). So yeah, do that and punish his mistakes.

3. Killing, maybe? You both have little tricks to avoid getting killed. Diddy can camp by having one banana in his hand, one right in front of him, and fire peanuts, meaning if you try a running usmash or something, you trip. However, Fox transitions from the air to the ground really easily, so you could attempt to bait an approach, SH over him and dair to upsmash for a kill, or something.

In general, I think Diddy has a notable advantage. Not a huge, overwhelming, womg advantage, not even a big one, but IMO it's notably in his favor (for you number freaks, probably 55-45).
Overall, this is a very good post... I just have a couple comments...

Norfair is Diddy's... Foxes like the incredibly low killing... but yeah, I would never go there against him. PS1 is mostly even since both characters are quite good at maneuvering around it.. It is generally a very good Fox stage, too. Brinstar was a good cal as well, since it is a pretty good stage for good Foxes...

The only real problem with your post is saying that Fox is easily shieldgrabbed.. most higher-level Foxes will not be getting shield grabbed by simply using well-spaced moves, really... He has the tools to avoid it, and we usually will... Fox HAS to play this match by keeping Diddy on the defensive... Once Diddy is free, he has this impressive way of controlling a match.

Also, Nair OoS for Fox is very good, as it basically resets spacing, if nothing else. Fox shouldn't just be staying in shield here...

Fox definitely wins in the killing game here... he simply has to stop Diddy's huge momentum game... don't stay back and let him control the stage...

I seriously think this match could be anywhere from 4-6 to 6-4 for both chars... pretty even.
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Diddy can OoS glide-toss away from an approach, if needed. And OoS Nair that Fox has may only work a couple of times; Diddy can GT away from range, then use either his other banana or Monkey Flip Kick to punish.

Diddy also doesn't have to approach Fox. Because Diddy outranges Fox, he can play his mid-range game to dampen your lasering and stop you from approaching. A mix of fairs, monkey kicks, banana throws, and peanuts all work well at mid-range pressure, and then Diddy can approach when he gets to punish an opening with a banana trip or something.

To keep Diddy under pressure, Fox needs to approach, but again, standard approaches can be punished. Diddy has more innovative ways to get rid of these approaches. What approaches are you thinking of, anyway? SH fairs, nairs? List your approaches that you can do relatively safely.

I still don't see this being in Fox's favor, and definitely not 6:4 in it.
 

Exceladon City

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
6,037
Location
The Lonesome Crowded Midwest
To me at least from what I've experienced against Diddy. It's a 50:50. Fox isn't at much of a disadvantage against Diddy and the same goes for Diddy against Fox. The only real disadvantage that Diddy has is that he lacks super solid KO moves, which is something Fox has and since Diddy isn't very heavy he can be KO'ed rather quickly. I tend to pressure Diddy something serious because I don't have time for the bananagins. SH Nairs, shines and airdodges are pretty useful in this match-up as they do slow down Diddy's banana game. SH Nairs and airdodges catch aerial bananas and shine of course reflects them away. What I've noticed is that once you take control of Diddy's bananas is that he's pretty much reduced (to quote my friend Cr4sh) "A bad Luigi". As for CP's I'd probably take Diddy to Smashville for the neutral so that way Battlefield is open for CP'ing. Granted, Diddy mains will probably ban Brinstar or RC, so Battlefield is a pretty viable choice and it kinda puts Diddy's nanas on ice. If you're feeling risky you could take them to Lylat, which would f*ck Diddy's recovery and bananas left and right. The only real thing that makes or breaks this match-up is player skill.
 

Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
Diddy can OoS glide-toss away from an approach, if needed. And OoS Nair that Fox has may only work a couple of times; Diddy can GT away from range, then use either his other banana or Monkey Flip Kick to punish.

OoS Nair is a spacing resetter, more than anything else. It's nearly unpunishable... so to say it will only work a number of times is false... It is just meant as a safe reset.
I'd love for Diddy to GT away... separate him from his bananas... Fox is one of the better pressure characters in the game with his speed and combos/kill moves. In appliying pressure...Fox makes it hard for Diddy to pull bananas...that's the main purpose of the exercise.. I believe if Fox keeps a basic pressure game going, Diddy will not be able to control his bananas nearly as effectively as usual.


Diddy also doesn't have to approach Fox. Because Diddy outranges Fox, he can play his mid-range game to dampen your lasering and stop you from approaching. A mix of fairs, monkey kicks, banana throws, and peanuts all work well at mid-range pressure, and then Diddy can approach when he gets to punish an opening with a banana trip or something.

In this match, I believe Fox WANTS to approach... so yeah, this is correct.

To keep Diddy under pressure, Fox needs to approach, but again, standard approaches can be punished. Diddy has more innovative ways to get rid of these approaches. What approaches are you thinking of, anyway? SH fairs, nairs? List your approaches that you can do relatively safely.

Spaced Bairs are nearly unpunishable here... they cannot be shield-grabbed, and they true combo on hit to an utilt... (I bring this point up to say that the combination of the two moves is VERY fast) and since utilt has incredible speed, priority, and range, you can't really do anything against it in this particular situation. of course you could say "well just GT a banana"... but Fox also doesn't have to utilt after... it just beats any attack you would do here.

SH Fairs are also nearly unpunishable, but not nearly as useful, since Diddy is a shorter character... would mainly be used to prevent an aerial.

To be honest, a FH dair behind your shield is quite safe, as well... Fox has several different option here... and I've completely disregarded grabs.

My main point is that Fox has the pressure tools to make Diddy uncomfortable with pulling / using bananas... because Fox can punish everything slightly laggy... very hard. He can also use bananas pretty effectively, as well. If Fox is able to keep Diddy on the defensive, he eliminates a large part of Diddy's arsenal with his ground movement. Take away a freedom to pull bananas, and Diddy has a minor problem. Of course not something he cannot get around... but 6-4 implies a very slight advantage.... a match with this rating could go either way, and is mainly stage/player dependent... I don't think that's unreasonable.

I also need to point out that Fox's dsmash is easy to land (combos out of dair and nair, and is overall a good punisher...even OoS), and sends Diddy with a low knockback... That mixed with Fox's vfery good edgeguarding tools in the match really make it harder for Diddy to get back than normal.. Fox handily wins the edgeguarding vs recovery game here... an overall, outkills Diddy on-stage. In the matchup, Diddy seems more equipped than Fox... but Fox's very good punishers and killers just overwhelm him, imo.


I still don't see this being in Fox's favor, and definitely not 6:4 in it.
comments above...
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
-OoS Nair can be punished with a monkey flip kick, as aforementioned. The kick's priority beats out the nair. And just because Diddy is seperated from his bananas doesn't mean they aren't still useful, especially considering it's still within midrange game (fair, peanut, banana, kick pressure, woo). When you monkey flip kick the Fox, you're right next to your still active banana again.

-Fox's pressure isn't that safe in this matchup, as I've already mentioned. Standard approaches like SH nairs and dairs can get sheildgrabbed. If a SH Fair or Bair connects, OoS glide toss says hi. Plus, fair outranges your almost everything if not everything, and can snuff a lot of approaches. I'm not sure how a FH dair behind our sheild is safe, or even going to happen.

-Diddy can also punish things that are slightly laggy very hard, can punish them more them Fox (trip says hi), and can also use bananas very effectively. Really, Diddy's bananas aren't that necessary in this matchup. You're putting a lot of emphasis of pressuring Diddy so he can't pull them out, although honestly I'd just use bananas to bait responses and punish approaches. Bananas are great on straight on offensive in other matchups. although Fox can punish that, so the only time a Diddy is going to be super offensive is when he's already made you trip and forced control of the situation.

-Again, the mid-range game that Diddy has is reeaaaalllllyyyy good. Diddy's good at playing just outside a character's range. Lasers can get punished, especially if you don't retreat, and Diddy can snuff your attempts at approaching him, something that Fox is going to want to do.
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Melee Fox is different from Brawl Fox, and I used to main both.

PS1 is an amazing stage for Diddy as well. You wouldn't want to counterpick to a stage BOTH CHARACTERS are good on when you could counterpick a character where only you'd benefit much, such as Rainbow Cruise, Halberd, or maybe Brinstar (I'm not sure about the last one).

I agree that PS1 is good for Fox, but saying, "you obviously wouldn't know cuz you don't main Fox," doesn't help matchup discussion at all. It's a good stage for both characters, so it's not something to ban or CP when there are better bans or CPs. Please tell me how or why PS1 is so good for Fox to nullify Diddy's being good on the stage?
 

Toronto Joe

Smash Master
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
4,580
Location
On MSN
i played Pastaboy yesterday for the first time in a while and the matches were pretty much even, i still think diddy has the advantage as long as he can control the stage
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom