Match-Up Export #20: Sonic| Stage Discussion

[Tenki]

/\ Mental commitment is still commitment. Even if you try to be random, it's very hard for one's actions to come out as random to the observant opponent. Even before you reach the spot a character's at, you may be interrupted with an opposing action because the opponent advances.

@(mental) commitment: That's true. However, if I linger too long on those behavior patterns, I risk just giving a personal account of how I or some other people play, and that's almost as bad as saying all Sonics will approach with spindash.

The main thing to take from not being "physically" committed is that his options are still open, whereas if Sonic jumped and started an aerial, lots of control gets lost.

Anyway, this matchup would be considered about even since they're both so punishment based, but Fox's CQC/rewards from punishment moves are, to an extent, more rewarding than Sonic's, so it's tilted in his favor.

That useless ratio stuff aside, you'll just have to figure out what your local Sonic main's player habits are の＿の; It's not like there are that many Sonic mains in tourneys anyway XD

 

[Variable]

I've only played him once: the first time I played against Sonic and my first day maining Fox. I lost consistently. And as stated before, all he did was spindash. That's why I think the match-up ignorance penalty against Sonic is worse than usual.

My current situation is much different of course. I've mained Fox for 4 months now.

4 months? :O


It looks like you've been playing Fox since the game has been out.

 

[Espy Rose]

4 pages of this nonsense?

Sonic and Fox practically go even. I don't see how any of these characters can honestly have an advantage on each other significant enough to push either to a 60:40.

SL pretty much summed it up on the first page too. Fox has to play much more conservatively if he wants to win the game.

 

[GUARD]

4 pages of this nonsense?

Sonic and Fox practically go even. I don't see how any of these characters can honestly have an advantage on each other significant enough to push either to a 60:40.

SL pretty much summed it up on the first page too. Fox has to play much more conservatively if he wants to win the game.

Thats like saying....``I main Fox so the MK match-up is 50-50``. Putting player skills aside, Fox has the advantage, and I say most of that reason is the KILLING factor.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol @ we kill better than you so fox beats sonic.

I guess that means link captain falcon, and jigglypuff all beat us too...

Hell, that must mean that the only characters sonic CAN beat in this game are peach and samus.

 

[GUARD]

lol @ we kill better than you so fox beats sonic.

I guess that means link captain falcon, and jigglypuff all beat us too...

Hell, that must mean that the only characters sonic CAN beat in this game are peach and samus.

I won`t argue anymore on facts or fictions. You say the match-up is even, and I say Fox has the upper hand.

btw..........Link, Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff has trouble killing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

they still kill better than sonic. so thus they must beat him in their matchups with him.

 

[Fear The Force]

I agree with Espy and Tenki, and disagree with TKD. This is a very even matchup, and couldn't possible be in Fox's favor.

In addition, I agree with Mag when he says that Fox can be fair gimped easily. It has happened to me before, and it isn't a pretty sight. -_-

Also, I agree with ShadowLink84 when he said that it is difficult for Fox to kill Sonic. Sonic can be very unpredictable, especially in the hands of a good Sonic, and most of the time a Fox player will be running away from Sonic, while Sonic will be approaching almost the entire match.

Another thing I want to point out is that if Fox and Sonic are in the air, Sonic wins. PERIOD.

Btw, Fox can't camp this matchup, and he'll literally have to sneak lasers in so that he won't get punished by Sonic. This matchup can be very frustrating for a Fox player, especially if a good Sonic player has cornered you at the end of the stage.

Sonic's f-air outprioritizes Fox's illusion, and Sonic is fast enough to punish Fox with a f-smash, sending Fox to oblivion.

One more thing, watch out for Sonic's d-air. Mag is TOTALLY right about the initial knockback of the move that can kill you.

 

[shikashake2]

I think Fox can reflect some of Sonic's spindashes if he times his reflector properly. Fox can also use his projectile to his advantage. Fox's recovery is one of the easier for Sonic to gimp or edgegaurd/edgehog against, so Fox will want to watch out for that. Sonic may be able to juggle fox at low % with Utilt and Uthrow. Sonic will have some trouble with KOing Fox with uthrow -> Uair due to his fast falling speed, and with other moves due to Fox's fairly fast attack speeds. Fox will likely be able to KO Sonic fairly easily as he has faster attack speed and strong knockback on Usmash and some of his other moves.

That's all I really know. The Sonic boards give this matchup a 60-40 in favor of Fox, I' say it's a 55-45 in favor of Fox.

 

[GwJ]

FYI: Everything outprioritizes Fox's illusion, not just fair.

 

[C.R.Z]

whats all this 50/50 nonsense lol

question, how do sonic mains punnish role dodges when approaching? as far as ive seen it is very very diificult while approaching with spin dash and the like.

 

[shikashake2]

whats all this 50/50 nonsense lol

question, how do sonic mains punnish role dodges when approaching? as far as ive seen it is very very diificult while approaching with spin dash and the like.

spindash can combo into Sonic's arials quite quickly, so he could probably try to hit them with f-air or b-air, or just move away from them and change the position back to neutral. Sonic doesn't always approach with spindash.

 

[Conviction]

you didn't answer the question.........you gave us what spindash does.

Now answer the question please.

How does sonic deal with dodge rolls when he approachs?

 

[Trillion]

whats all this 50/50 nonsense lol

question, how do sonic mains punnish role dodges when approaching? as far as ive seen it is very very diificult while approaching with spin dash and the like.

Sonic only uses spin dash as an approach against noobs. We use dashing shield grabs, dashing into short hopped fair, etc. We have plenty of options for dealing with people who try to dodge when we approach. What we can't deal with well is people who outprioritize or outspace us when we try to approach.

 

[Trillion]

As for discussion, I can post the vids of my matches vs. Iblis if you guys would like. They are lag-fi, so obviously not representative of the way that matches play out IRL. He and I played 9 matches of which I have 7 recorded. One of my recording equipment had an error, but I won. The other that I missed because I forgot to hit the play button, but I can't remember who won. Of the 7 I do have recorded I won them all, but in the first 2 I had lag-fi suicides, that Iblis graciously balanced out by suiciding too. Each of the matches were very close one of which I probably would have lost if he hadn't had a lag-fi suicide on his last stock. All in all, my matches with Iblis were pretty balanced (he's got a great Fox) and if he'd like to play more I'd be happy to play more with him (he's an overall cool guy too).



As for stages, Iblis tended to perform best against me on Battlefield IMO, so that might be a good pick for you guys in this match.

I also played one against Clyon since he showed up at Iblis's house while we were playing. I two-stocked him by KO-ing him off the top of Yoshi Island twice with spring > upair chases. I also two stocked Iblis on that same stage. So, Yoshi's Island might not be a good choice for you Fox players and might be a good choice for us Sonics.


Without having played more of you Foxs and without having more Sonics put in their thoughts on the stages in this match-up, I can't say for sure. I'm sure that the few matches I played with Iblis and the 1 with Clyon don't give us a large enough representative sample of that match up as a whole and even more so on particular stages.

If anyone else wants to play a few to help get a bit more idea of the match up, I'm still open for playing.

 

[Trillion]

Also, I played a Fox user named Keyon on AiB's ladder. I dunno if that name means anything to you guys or not though.

Round 1: I lost on Smashville. Upsmashed off the top at 117% on my last stock. He was at 100% on his last stock. It was a pretty close match right up until the end.

Round 2: I won on Final Destination. Killing him at 125% off the side with my fsmash for his last stock. I was at 45% on my last stock. Pretty close match, but I lag-fi suicided my second stock at 12%.

Round 3: We went to Yoshi Island. He 2 stocked me with 117% on his second stock.

So, YI worked pretty well for him. FD was largely in my favor and smashville was pretty neutral. This is entirely opposite of the YI trend that I had with IBlis and Clyon.


I also played some other Fox user on there too, and I owned him the first match so he switched characters afterwards. He was probably a fox noob, his tag was Vinny, but I don't think that's his AiB username.

 

[C.R.Z]

Sonic only uses spin dash as an approach against noobs. We use dashing shield grabs, dashing into short hopped fair, etc. We have plenty of options for dealing with people who try to dodge when we approach. What we can't deal with well is people who outprioritize or outspace us when we try to approach.

so you basically have a limited version of what fox can do? without the lazers? you guys got it hard lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

what does sonic do when people try to roll around approaches?

we either run up to you and shield, and punish the roll with whatever we want.

or you roll around our approach, we miss our attack, and theres no way your going to punish with your piss poor roll, and the situation resets back to neutral.

thats why rolling around most stuff isnt really beneficial, because unless youre lucario, your not going to be gaining anything from a roll to avoid an attack

 

[C.R.Z]

so basically rolling cuts out your approaching completely? if rolling past sonics shield grab only resets the positions then what options to you have ? we have lazers :/

 

[shikashake2]

Sonic will likely run through Fox's lazers and attack you if use your lazers too much, preferably with a grab. Or he can just jump over them and attack you from the air. I don't think the lazers will help Fox to much in this matchup, Sonic has great mobility.

 

[AvaricePanda]

You either get punished the first time or get positions reset because Fox's roll is bad and most character's rolls are bad except like 5 in this game, and if you keep spamming roll or even using it more than like twice it becomes very easy to read and will get punished.

 

[Trillion]

so basically rolling cuts out your approaching completely? if rolling past sonics shield grab only resets the positions then what options to you have ? we have lazers :/

i showed a video. i suppose you haven't watched it or read the whole beginning of the thread where even Fox mains agreed that lasers should be used very sparingly in this match up. In the video, i demonstrated that at the beginning of the match, they said GO!! and in less than a second off the clock i had completed a grab on my brother's fox while he tried to laser me. I took only 4% in laser damage (2 shots i believe) before he got grabbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlmsl-ugW2Q

 

[C.R.Z]

fox should not be doing standing lazers at all, let alone this match up. fox also shouldnt be doing more than one lazer to keep mobility.if fox rolls when sonic is close enough after sonic appraches, he cannot punnish fox's roll, yes roll is bad but its hard for sonic to punish it from an approach, fox shouldnt be roling in a silly way anyway.

if the position does get reset, my point is that fox can do a SHL or SHTL before you can try and get close again.obviously fox needs to use his lazers wisely but even one hit from a lazer can still add up to create advantage.

 

[AvaricePanda]

You're thinking too linearly about the roll situation. Rolling behind Sonic's approach a few times might work, especially if you know he's trying to go for something close immediately. However, if Sonic predicts that you'll roll behind him, he'll just approach to where your roll is, and you get punished. If he's uncertain, he doesn't have to commit to something like a dash grab (not even sure how good that is for sonic lol), he can dash towards a SH F-air spacing and wait for a reaction, and if you try to roll behind him he can SH B-air or RAR SH F-air or F-smash or D-smash or do whatever Sonic does to punish rolls.

tl;dr: rolling is situational and can be used a few times but is generally bad and you don't want to roll because it is easily punishable if the Sonic player identifies it as a possible option.

Sneaking in SHL's may work but be very wary of the zoning while doing so. Sonic can close distances well and you don't want to be caught in a position where you think you have enough space to SHTL or SHL but you don't, cause then it's free damage for him. I agree though, standing lasers is bad and (in my head lol) you should be able to get in SHL's if he's far away enough.

 

[Conviction]

My turn to post a vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKrnRDNc1I0&feature=related

 

[4Biddin]

Lets see....
FOX
-SHTL if you can do it(zero lag so you can spot dodge grab attempts)
-Look out for RAR his b-air is his BnB
-Also watch out for well spaced f-smashes(Foxes jab is frame 2 so use it in close range to keep him under pressure)
-Punish spring to d-air when you can with U-smash(will take a bit of reading to figure out how they are using it)
-Sonic is quick but doesnt have any good approaches so laser all day and punish approaches with grabs/smashes/d-air/etc.

IMO this match up is 55/45 fox or 60/40 if the fox user can SHTL foxes laser is just to good. I main fox and im able to get ppl in KO range with just lasers and jabs most of the time lol

quick fact also if a player short hops alot your SHTL can deal 3-9 damage each time they jump.

 

[4Biddin]

My turn to post a vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKrnRDNc1I0&feature=related

Good match but imo you put yourself in danger too much seriously ppl do not know how much pressure laser put on ppl to approach lol. More laser=less damage for you and a possible 3 stock.Foxes close range is great with his jab it can make for a great mix up. I seen you jab cancel but you really only need to do it once and then go for a grab,short hop behind to b-air,spot dodge and punish all those are great follow ups for his jab cancel. When fox is played correctly he is a monster because he can keep damaging his oppnent at all time. Over all great vid though

 

[AvaricePanda]

SHTLing = you eat an attack because he's sonic and will reach you on all stages that aren't maybe FD when you're at max length. And if you are SHTLing, Sonic shouldn't be trying to grab you to punish, he'd probably do SH F-air or B-air.

If you're ever in a position where you want to sneak in a laser, SHL is better because if you see him approaching, you can change what you're doing (since SHL doesn't take full commitment from a short hop). You can use it as an occasional mix-up because if he thinks you're going to SHsomethinglaser when you SH backwards and he runs to you, you can fall with N-air or something. But don't do it twice in a row or in a way that's readable because you just get punished.

Sonic probably won't let you be at that max range where SHTL's safe for long anyway.

 

[Conviction]

Errr after some more recent gameplay against sonic I stand at 55/45 Fox's Favor.

I now do agree with the sonic mains it's not as easy to laser camp but it is possible. Sonic's Spindash tricks make good approaches people, plus at time sonic will run you down before you can even rush away, once you close stick it to him and knock him away. Camping is very weird is this MU it's not the typical lolz let me laser you. DI Sonic's Fair Down and away or Down and towards him if he spaces it bad. Sonic's shouldn't be using Dair cause you will get punished via Usmash.

How to Punish Sonic (all was tested at tourney)
Nair is OoS Usmashable and easy to shieldgrab, on a whiff you can Fair, Bair wait till he starts his fall and dair, Usmash, grab, Dsmash, or Fsmash (don't ever expect to see this move from a good sonic though)
Fair is OoS Usmashable you can't shieldgrab it, on whiff you can beat it with Fair, Usmash, or Bair
Dair is OoS Usmashable and also another one easy to shieldgrab, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dair follow up him
Rising Bair is NOT OoS Usmashable sonic is completely safe, on whiff strike back with Fair,Bair, or Usmash
Falling Bair will cause lag which you can unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff grab,Usmash
Don't even worry about Uair cause you won't even see a sonic try to Uair a grounded opponet if he does just **** him
Fsmash IS NOT OoS Usmashable BUT you can Unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash
Dsmash is another that is not OoS Usmashable but you unshield and punish, on whiff the best reconmendation is SH Dair
Usmash is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff punish with what you feel like (this is another move you shouldn't expect a Sonic to do against a grounded opponet)
Ftilt can only be shieldgrabbed, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash all other moves are too slow
Dtilt can be tricky you can't shieldgrab but if you predict it you can SH Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dash attack
Utilt is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff Usmash, grab, ftilt, reverse Utilt, don't aerial this moves whiff
DO NOT TRY AND SHIELD ANY OF HIS SPINDASHES! If you can see them coming you stop with basically and move i would go the safe way and use a falling aerial on it though, use Nair or Dair, jab and utilt does clank with it though
Lol don't try to punish the rise in Sonic's Spring Jump, read his fall and punish Uair will be best since it outproitizes all of his aerials
Don't even worry about Homing Attack don't expect a good one to use this either he does it's easy to dodge and punish
Sonic cannot Shieldgrab our Bair,Fair,Ftilt,Utilt(spaced)

Hope this helps Foxes trying to figure out how punish his speed.

EDIT:4Biddin you cannot camp Sonic normally as you can see in that vid, I couldn't get others recorded but I can show the correct way to camp him next time, I didn't grab after the JJCs cause I waiting for his reaction so next I did it I can punish with whatever. Yes Fox mains do know how much lasers have an affect on MUs. I think you are underestimating Sonic tbh.

Summary: Camping Sonic is more technical like camping Falco.

@AP thanks for responding while I was still typing this huge data I collected.

 

[4Biddin]

SHTLing = you eat an attack because he's sonic and will reach you on all stages that aren't maybe FD when you're at max length. And if you are SHTLing, Sonic shouldn't be trying to grab you to punish, he'd probably do SH F-air or B-air.

If you're ever in a position where you want to sneak in a laser, SHL is better because if you see him approaching, you can change what you're doing (since SHL doesn't take full commitment from a short hop). You can use it as an occasional mix-up because if he thinks you're going to SHsomethinglaser when you SH backwards and he runs to you, you can fall with N-air or something. But don't do it twice in a row or in a way that's readable because you just get punished.

Sonic probably won't let you be at that max range where SHTL's safe for long anyway.

Spot Dodge beats everything in the game so if you spot dodge after each laser attempt your safe. I have yet to see anyone able to punish spot dodges and read them correctly. Yes he can hit you in the air but fox is fast enough to still keep his movement going so it would be hard to punish. SHAD works also as this throws alot of ppl off when they see someone jumping around doing SHAD. But overall I dont think there are any sonics out there that can reliably punish laser attemts its just to small of a window. Foxes short hop is alot faster than most characters. Along with zero landing lag when he does it.

 

[Conviction]

Spot Dodge beats everything in the game so if you spot dodge after each laser attempt your safe. I have yet to see anyone able to punish spot dodges and read them correctly.

Spot Dodge beats everything in the game so if you spot dodge after each laser attempt your safe. I have yet to see anyone able to punish spot dodges and read them correctly.

Spot Dodge beats everything in the game

beats everything

yet to see anyone able to punish spot dodges and read them correctly

punish spot dodges

read them correctly

........
.....
......what.....I....dont...even....
no....just no,
Examples of what ***** spotdodges
Fox's Nair
GnW's Nair
Falco's Nair,
ANY CHARACTERS RAPID JABS
TL's Up B
Any move that has a sex kick
you don't have even do that, THE PATTERN YOU JUST SAID IS SOO PREDICTABLE, SHTL>SD
*oh looks sonic free grabs! RUNS UP *notice Sonic covers FD in 60 frames* stop and watches you spotdodge ***** accordingly,
how do you come up and here and call yourself top 4 and don't know how to beat a spotdodge.
I would love to be nicer but you are tryna come up here and RUN things, no one will ever listen to you if you claim to be top 4 of any character and you don't know what beats a spotdodge.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

........
.....
......what.....I....dont...even....
no....just no,
Examples of what ***** spotdodges
Fox's Nair
GnW's Nair
Falco's Nair,
ANY CHARACTERS RAPID JABS
TL's Up B
Any move that has a sex kick
you don't have even do that, THE PATTERN YOU JUST SAID IS SOO PREDICTABLE, SHTL>SD
*oh looks sonic free grabs! RUNS UP *notice Sonic covers FD in 60 frames* stop and watches you spotdodge ***** accordingly,
how do you come up and here and call yourself top 4 and don't know how to beat a spotdodge.
I would love to be nicer but you are tryna come up here and RUN things, no one will ever listen to you if you claim to be top 4 of any character and you don't know what beats a spotdodge.

wow, lol, dominated

 

[AvaricePanda]

Spot Dodge beats everything in the game so if you spot dodge after each laser attempt your safe. I have yet to see anyone able to punish spot dodges and read them correctly.

wat

you aren't playing good people then.

No offense but lol spotdodges are pretty mediocre, if you do it in a pattern like this, like Iblis said, you're just going to get read easily. Fox's SHTL or SHDL honestly aren't that safe because you're commiting your entire short hop to a move that, unlike aerials, don't have hitboxes with knockback. 0 landing lag in exchange for your short hop to be commited to a no-knockback attack is not good against a character with the fastest dash speed in the game. They're great at long range and when you're moving out of mid-range, but Sonic especially can quickly close the distance during your short hop and SH F-air to punish you, or anything. Yes, to do this he has to take the damage from a few laser hits, but the punish is worth it.

 

[Conviction]

wat

you aren't playing good people then.

No offense but lol spotdodges are pretty mediocre, if you do it in a pattern like this, like Iblis said, you're just going to get read easily. Fox's SHTL or SHDL honestly aren't that safe because you're commiting your entire short hop to a move that, unlike aerials, don't have hitboxes with knockback. They're great at long range and when you're moving out of mid-range, but Sonic especially can quickly close the distance during your short hop and SH F-air to punish you, or anything. Yes, to do this he has to take the damage from a few laser hits, but the punish is worth it.

Once again thank you.

You did it the nicer way but he claimed to be one of the TOP 4 Foxes, and he goes and says that. lol

EDIT: For those of you who wanna actually learn read the previous page. I broke down how to punish all of Sonic's moves and I gave vid of Fox vs. Sonic gameplay.

 

[AvaricePanda]

EDIT: For those of you who wanna actually learn read the previous page.

get at that 40 posts a page status.

I'm assuming that Fox's SH F-air and N-air can be used in substitute for OoS U-smash for some of the things like Sonic's F-air on shield?


I haven't played against a Sonic since I've heard this advice (and well I main Diddy anyway lol just prepping Fox for a mid-tier tourney in August) but in my head it sounds like it might work. Clowsui said this in the IN/KY xat (heavily paraphrased)

"Sonic kinda relies a lot on mix-ups which revolve around his fast dash speed. A main way to mess with those mix-ups and approaches is moving; spacing is reliant on both character's movement, so you can throw his off by doing so. Move back or forward when he approaches and don't be caught in commited actions when he isn't."

Basically, move when he approaches and don't when he doesn't, although I'm honestly not sure about the "don't when he doesn't" thing (don't remember if he said that or not). Regardless this isn't like match-up changing, just advice that might help. On paper it sounds good because you're not letting him space and read off of a static target; you're putting your movement as an option on all of his approaches. He might whiff attacks or maybe just mess up his spacing temporarily.

Try it out though, I don't know or fully understand cause I haven't gotten a chance to try it against Sonic myself.

 

[Conviction]

That sounds about right. Walking is very underused by Foxes and it should be used more it cause attacks to be whiffed and you can approach with walking because you have the fastest walking speed. Walking mix-ups should implemented with Fox more.

Yes SH Nair will work, idk about Fair that slipped my mind.

 

[4Biddin]

Once again thank you.

You did it the nicer way but he claimed to be one of the TOP 4 Foxes, and he goes and says that. lol

EDIT: For those of you who wanna actually learn read the previous page. I broke down how to punish all of Sonic's moves and I gave vid of Fox vs. Sonic gameplay.

Yea I claimed that is that a problem lol? I dont think what I said was that far fetched because I have played aganist some of the top players in the midwest so yes I know spot dodging works. Look at it this way if you can't consistently do SHTL then you have no input I watched your vid and you have a god fox don't get me wrong but you were full hopping trying to do the lasers lol no offence but fox should be firing off about 100 shots a min lol

wat

you aren't playing good people then.

No offense but lol spotdodges are pretty mediocre, if you do it in a pattern like this, like Iblis said, you're just going to get read easily. Fox's SHTL or SHDL honestly aren't that safe because you're commiting your entire short hop to a move that, unlike aerials, don't have hitboxes with knockback. 0 landing lag in exchange for your short hop to be commited to a no-knockback attack is not good against a character with the fastest dash speed in the game. They're great at long range and when you're moving out of mid-range, but Sonic especially can quickly close the distance during your short hop and SH F-air to punish you, or anything. Yes, to do this he has to take the damage from a few laser hits, but the punish is worth it.

I see your point but spotdoges beat everything in the game including grabs period. And most smashers do not have the capability of reading other players anyway and even if they did you can not really punish a spotdodger unless you have lingering hitboxes. spotdodges for top teir lol.

Also sonics dash speed in great but he poses no threat to fox when he get in. What options does he have? Jab or down tilt thats about it and again both of these can be stopped with an accurate spot dodge. Yes sonic has speed but he has no reliable options once he gets in. If fox plays safe and forces approaches then sonic is playing right into foxes hand and the matchup will come out in our favor.

I completely agree with your point yes SHTL is punishable on a fox that just stands there and shots them but if the fox keeps his mobility after each laser then he will be fine. Doing a retreating dash to SHTL is godly and helps keep spacing. Sonic is not that good of a character and even with his speed he is still at a disadvantage when approaching just like about every other character in this game.

 

[Conviction]

Yes actually I think full jump lasers in this MU will better in certain situtations because of his run speed and plus you have more options in a full jump because
A) you are higher up in the air
B) you are not as commited like a SH
C) You can Shinestall
D) you can air jump
E) you can FF AD
F) you can illision away
G) You can attack him
H) You can laser him if he decides not to approach

Spotdodges aren't great especially as Fox. Idk why I'm having to argue for Sonic as well. You underestimate him. There is nothing more I can say to you. Hmmm only if you would understand.

You have remember the stage doesn't run for ever and ever and you to account for the time it takes to actually dash, jump, then SHTL, this is at least 30 frames....Sonic will catch you.

 

[AvaricePanda]

no, spotdodges are bad and if you think they're good you will get punished hard. I'm saying this to try to help you; overusing spotdodges and are bad and you will be punished.

Most smashers do have the capability of reading other players. I'm not a top level player, pretty average probably, but still reading spotdodges and any general habits like that is pretty easy. If you think that most people can't read other players, you are going to be in for a huge shock.

You can punish a spotdodger with anything; at the end of the move there are a few frames (I think like 4-6 at least) where you're still in the spotdodge animation but there's no invincibility, so you're vulnerable and can't do anything. That + the start-up for other moves + the fact that there's 20ish frames at the beginning of a spotdodge to react to means that characters can punish with really anything. While lingering hitbox moves and charged smashes are better punishments because they're more guaranteed, anything in range will hit them.

Out of dash, Sonic can SH F-air or B-air to punish an SHTL. Against a standing Fox I don't really know lol I'm in here to learn more for mid-tiers and correct wrong statements.

Retreating your SHTL helps, but it doesn't bridge the gap from punishable to unpunishable. Both are punishable and if you are anything but max range against a Sonic, he can dash in and F-air you or do something to punish you. I had the retreating in mind when talking about the SHTL anyway.

tl;dr: spotdodges are mediocre, don't think they're great, they aren't and are easily punishable. Not to say they're completely useless, because if you can guess or read correctly you can avoid and punish something, and it's still an option in CQC game. But relying on it to avoid everything and saying it beats everything in the game will get you punished hard.

you can trust that if I play you like 70% of the damage I deal will be from punishing a spotdodge lol

 

[4Biddin]

no, spotdodges are bad and if you think they're good you will get punished hard. I'm saying this to try to help you; overusing spotdodges and are bad and you will be punished.

Most smashers do have the capability of reading other players. I'm not a top level player, pretty average probably, but still reading spotdodges and any general habits like that is pretty easy. If you think that most people can't read other players, you are going to be in for a huge shock.

You can punish a spotdodger with anything; at the end of the move there are a few frames (I think like 4-6 at least) where you're still in the spotdodge animation but there's no invincibility, so you're vulnerable and can't do anything. That + the start-up for other moves + the fact that there's 20ish frames at the beginning of a spotdodge to react to means that characters can punish with really anything. While lingering hitbox moves and charged smashes are better punishments because they're more guaranteed, anything in range will hit them.

Out of dash, Sonic can SH F-air or B-air to punish an SHTL. Against a standing Fox I don't really know lol I'm in here to learn more for mid-tiers and correct wrong statements.

Retreating your SHTL helps, but it doesn't bridge the gap from punishable to unpunishable. Both are punishable and if you are anything but max range against a Sonic, he can dash in and F-air you or do something to punish you. I had the retreating in mind when talking about the SHTL anyway.

tl;dr: spotdodges are mediocre, don't think they're great, they aren't and are easily punishable. Not to say they're completely useless, because if you can guess or read correctly you can avoid and punish something, and it's still an option in CQC game. But relying on it to avoid everything and saying it beats everything in the game will get you punished hard.

you can trust that if I play you like 70% of the damage I deal will be from punishing a spotdodge lol

Lol doubt it but ill hold ya to it.

But yea you may of never seen something called spotdodge invincibility which is basically what is sounds like. I just need to show everyone what it is spotdodge is almost as powerful as shielding in this game. No move beside maybe a select few jabs are fast enough frame wise anyway which is way i said that. If anyone has Sonics frame data we can do the math and compare.