Match-Up Export #20: Sonic| Stage Discussion

[AvaricePanda]

You're assuming that the people have to do an attack right as the spotdodge becomes vulnerable, which is wrong, because if you spotdodge and you're opponents in a state where he can do anything, he can just use his attack a few frames before the spotdodge vulnerability. It takes timing but it's not difficult. In this case, Sonic's easiest move to punish a spotdodge is F-air since the hitbox is out longer and it covers that distance well.

Most beginning players get in a habit of spotdodging and rolling too much and work their way to doing it less. It is quite punishable; I've shown you on paper, me as well as a lot of people (including those that you play with) have punished many spotdodges in person. At top level of play there isn't an abundance of spotdodges, and it's safe to assume because they know much more about the game's mechanics than most do and still don't abuse spotdodging, it's because it's not as good as you're making it out to be.

 

[Conviction]

Lol doubt it but ill hold ya to it.

But yea you may of never seen something called spotdodge invincibility which is basically what is sounds like. I just need to show everyone what it is spotdodge is almost as powerful as shielding in this game. No move beside maybe a select few jabs are fast enough frame wise anyway which is way i said that. If anyone has Sonics frame data we can do the math and compare.

did you know there are non-invic frames in spotdodge?

 

[Blacknight99923]

If anyone has Sonics frame data we can do the math and compare.

we are going to need a priest at the rate this guy is digging his own grave



you know frame data also INCLUDES THE TIME YOUR SUSCEPTIBLE TO ATTACKS RIGHT?

 

[4Biddin]

we are going to need a priest at the rate this guy is digging his own grave



you know frame data also INCLUDES THE TIME YOUR SUSCEPTIBLE TO ATTACKS RIGHT?

Umm yes thats why i asked for it. You need to GTFO if your not discussing anything important bro.

did you know there are non-invic frames in spotdodge?

Yes. How many i am not sure.

You're assuming that the people have to do an attack right as the spotdodge becomes vulnerable, which is wrong, because if you spotdodge and you're opponents in a state where he can do anything, he can just use his attack a few frames before the spotdodge vulnerability. It takes timing but it's not difficult. In this case, Sonic's easiest move to punish a spotdodge is F-air since the hitbox is out longer and it covers that distance well.

Most beginning players get in a habit of spotdodging and rolling too much and work their way to doing it less. It is quite punishable; I've shown you on paper, me as well as a lot of people (including those that you play with) have punished many spotdodges in person. At top level of play there isn't an abundance of spotdodges, and it's safe to assume because they know much more about the game's mechanics than most do and still don't abuse spotdodging, it's because it's not as good as you're making it out to be.

Im not saying to repeatedly spotdodge i am saying that if you see sonic running at you you know he is either going to sheild or attack if you see he is aggressive and attacks with every approach then a spotdodge will own him if he shields then you grab him. Simple my whole point i am making about this match up is that if you use laser and make sonic approach you win and its true.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Yes. How many i am not sure.



.

you obviously don't

 

[4Biddin]

you obviously don't

Well if I remember correctly like Avarice said their are some right at the end but i dont think there is many which is why you see some ppl get away with two or three spotdodges in a row sometimes.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Well if I remember correctly like Avarice said their are some right at the end but i dont think there is many which is why you see some ppl get away with two or three spotdodges in a row sometimes.

they do? Who do you play again? because I haven't seen anyone do that consistently that makes it out of losers round 1

 

[Tenki]

My turn to post a vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKrnRDNc1I0&feature=related

lol that was cute. Since when did he play Sonic in friendlies?
He had some cool movements, but there were some moments that screamed for more fluid moves, like dash dance pivots/DDP fsmashes (it's a global AT that you can do with any initial dash, but it's so good with Sonic's run speed <3) instead of just running and doing a regular/shield stop. Or doing spinshot instead of a slower recovery option.

whats all this 50/50 nonsense lol

question, how do sonic mains punnish role dodges when approaching? as far as ive seen it is very very diificult while approaching with spin dash and the like.

Sonic's most uncommitted approach is simply running towards you. If we're foxtrotting, we can do a dash dance pivot to instantly reverse and get an f-smash (foxtrot > reverse fsmash <3). If we're running, a screech stop (his regular fulldash stop) usually ends early enough to punish with a tilt. B-reversed side-B can also bait you to roll via sound/graphic (and if you don't fall for it, we can jump/shield/release to get outta there), and lead to a footstool>tech chase...

Anyway, you guys should spotdodge and roll more. Tell your friends too.

We'll just keep baiting them and getting easier grabs and/or kills :|

on a serious note:
Honestly, I get most of my kills from doing Foxtrot/pivot fsmash on people rolling towards me, or just a run behind > (you spotdodge) > fsmash. Much tougher to get kills if you're fighting (safely) at high % instead of being scared and doing something vulnerable, like spot dodging :/

 

[Conviction]

lol that was cute. Since when did he play Sonic in friendlies?
He had some cool movements, but there were some moments that screamed for more fluid moves, like dash dance pivots/DDP fsmashes (it's a global AT that you can do with any initial dash, but it's so good with Sonic's run speed <3) instead of just running and doing a regular/shield stop. Or doing spinshot instead of a slower recovery option.

Why didn't you come man? He was trying to prove a point to me and tried beat me as Sonic, at first I thought this was gonna be a silly match and Sonic was gonna be complete total garbage XD

Are you coming to the next monthly? Maybe we can get some matches recorded

 

[Tenki]

I'm like, taking max summer hours and have a weekend job and can't really play smash anymore. I might come to the uh, August monthly, just for lulz.
lifejohns

Though, everything I say/have said was valid in 2009.

 

[Conviction]

I'm like, taking max summer hours and have a weekend job and can't really play smash anymore. I might come to the uh, August monthly, just for lulz.
lifejohns

Though, everything I say/have said was valid in 2009.

Ahhh ok idk if I'll make that but I'll try.

 

[KillerJawz]

Well if I remember correctly like Avarice said their are some right at the end but i dont think there is many which is why you see some ppl get away with two or three spotdodges in a row sometimes.

If you are pulling off three spot dodges in a row, then please for the love of god tell me who you or they pulled that off on.

Also, heres all the spotdodge information you will ever need:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510&highlight=frame

As you can clearly see, Fox's is 2-20 invinci, lasting a total of 25 frames. If you are not getting punished for that, then I would like to have some words with your opponents.

 

[MJG]

I am a top 4...wait..


Wrong thread >_>

All of you need to stfu and get back in the discussion.

 

[shikashake2]

I think that Sonic can punish spotdodges fairly easily with U-smash as well, it probably won't even take good timing. F-air is probably his best option, and he can use jab as well. Sonic might even be able to punish spotdodges with a grab if his timing is good enough, but I'm not positive about that. Spotdodging really is bad, and lazer spamming isn't a great idea either. It is possible, but there is a good chance we will just punish you, Sonic is incredibly fast, even in the air, and you don't want to get hit by f-air or b-air. Fox should be viglant when using lazers. 100 lazers per minute is just absurd, unless you want us to kill you.

sorry if this wasn't productive, I just though it might be good for someone who uses Sonic to give their opinion on this.

 

[Conviction]

I think that Sonic can punish spotdodges fairly easily with U-smash as well, it probably won't even take good timing. F-air is probably his best option, and he can use jab as well. Sonic might even be able to punish spotdodges with a grab if his timing is good enough, but I'm not positive about that. Spotdodging really is bad, and lazer spamming isn't a great idea either. It is possible, but there is a good chance we will just punish you, Sonic is incredibly fast, even in the air, and you don't want to get hit by f-air or b-air. Fox should be viglant when using lazers. 100 lazers per minute is just absurd, unless you want us to kill you.

sorry if this wasn't productive, I just though it might be good for someone who uses Sonic to give their opinion on this.

No this was very productive he needs to know. That's what this thread is for.

spotdodge beat everything

this is not what this thread is for.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think that Sonic can punish spotdodges fairly easily with U-smash as well, it probably won't even take good timing. F-air is probably his best option, and he can use jab as well. Sonic might even be able to punish spotdodges with a grab if his timing is good enough, but I'm not positive about that. Spotdodging really is bad, and lazer spamming isn't a great idea either. It is possible, but there is a good chance we will just punish you, Sonic is incredibly fast, even in the air, and you don't want to get hit by f-air or b-air. Fox should be viglant when using lazers. 100 lazers per minute is just absurd, unless you want us to kill you.

sorry if this wasn't productive, I just though it might be good for someone who uses Sonic to give their opinion on this.

it wasn't productive because he is clearly an idiot who won't learn from this

that being said its good for ME to know sonics spot dodge punishment options

 

[4Biddin]

If you are pulling off three spot dodges in a row, then please for the love of god tell me who you or they pulled that off on.

Also, heres all the spotdodge information you will ever need:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510&highlight=frame

As you can clearly see, Fox's is 2-20 invinci, lasting a total of 25 frames. If you are not getting punished for that, then I would like to have some words with your opponents.

You can't punish someone who is reading you and spotdodging accordingly. It is not that hard to comprehend **** man. I have seen alot of ppl do it before in vids. I don't remember exactly which ones but if you buffer and know the timing you can pull it off. I have done it and have seen others do it two. If someone approaches and you spotdodge off instinct you still have time to dash away after words or even perfect shield

EDIT. Here is an ex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fKqrP7mmw at around :13 metaknight does a nado and fox tries to grab after and meta spotdodges and punishes the grab. That is what i am talking about with sonic if you see him approaching then you can just test him and if he tries to go and commit to a attack right away you can spotdodge it and punish.

I think that Sonic can punish spotdodges fairly easily with U-smash as well, it probably won't even take good timing. F-air is probably his best option, and he can use jab as well. Sonic might even be able to punish spotdodges with a grab if his timing is good enough, but I'm not positive about that. Spotdodging really is bad, and lazer spamming isn't a great idea either. It is possible, but there is a good chance we will just punish you, Sonic is incredibly fast, even in the air, and you don't want to get hit by f-air or b-air. Fox should be viglant when using lazers. 100 lazers per minute is just absurd, unless you want us to kill you.

sorry if this wasn't productive, I just though it might be good for someone who uses Sonic to give their opinion on this.

As stated before sonic can not RELIABLY punish spotdodges as no character with out a lingering hit box can. But Fair is definitely your most viable approach due to its multiple hit boxes. Jab can be stopped with one spotdodge as well.

Also even if sonic connects with his bair it is still in our favor because he is degenerating his only quick kill move. Win/Win situation for fox. Aganist sonic players I live to at least 150% a stock because they can't kill me.

Match Ups are based off the abilities of top level player and how they use their charcter. So based off of this I can safely say that fox should be able to laser safely if that fox player is in fact truly a top level fox. So 100 lazars a min is doable

No this was very productive he needs to know. That's what this thread is for.


this is not what this thread is for.

Spotdodges do beat everything. Whats your point? If you know your opponents KO moves and how they can use them then spotdodging will help prevent you from dieing. So in conclusion sonic has 2 kill move fsmash and b air. fsmash is spotdodgable and bair may connect maybe 35% of the time if fox plays correctly and even then it could end up being degenerated if he does connect alot

it wasn't productive because he is clearly an idiot who won't learn from this

that being said its good for ME to know sonics spot dodge punishment options

Who is an idiot?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Who is an idiot?

its obviously everyone but you amirite

and spotdodge doesn't beat mach tornado lol

 

[KillerJawz]

You can't punish someone who is reading you and spotdodging accordingly. It is not that hard to comprehend **** man. I have seen alot of ppl do it before in vids. I don't remember exactly which ones but if you buffer and know the timing you can pull it off. I have done it and have seen others do it two. If someone approaches and you spotdodge off instinct you still have time to dash away after words or even perfect shield

EDIT. Here is an ex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fKqrP7mmw at around :13 metaknight does a nado and fox tries to grab after and meta spotdodges and punishes the grab. That is what i am talking about with sonic if you see him approaching then you can just test him and if he tries to go and commit to a attack right away you can spotdodge it and punish.

That was a single spot dodge, not two or three. You quite clearly have no idea what you're talking about and I believe it would be best if you just left this thread and went back to AiB.

 

[4Biddin]

That was a single spot dodge, not two or three. You quite clearly have no idea what you're talking about and I believe it would be best if you just left this thread and went back to AiB.

Sorry I dont play wifi but Im sure I could beat you anyday of the week dude. The point was that accurate spotdodging is not punishable which was my original statement. And i bet $5000 i could get 3 spotdodges off on you in a row and you wouldnt be able to connect with a single attack......

Soooooooooooooooooooooo like I said if you use lazar and force approach you constrict sonic to two options attack or shield and both are in foxes favor 60/40 match up imo.

 

[MJG]

wow lol if we ever met in real life, I would gladly MM you for $50 dollars. So arrogant

 

[Conviction]

You can't punish someone who is reading you and spotdodging accordingly. It is not that hard to comprehend **** man. I have seen alot of ppl do it before in vids. I don't remember exactly which ones but if you buffer and know the timing you can pull it off. I have done it and have seen others do it two. If someone approaches and you spotdodge off instinct you still have time to dash away after words or even perfect shield

Instinct.....did you everytime some on SHs DONT have to attack some on SH and FFs and your INSTINCT told you to spotdodge guess what you are wrong, you can have a 3rd grade math education to figure out how to add it up and punish it

EDIT. Here is an ex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fKqrP7mmw at around :13 metaknight does a nado and fox tries to grab after and meta spotdodges and punishes the grab. That is what i am talking about with sonic if you see him approaching then you can just test him and if he tries to go and commit to a attack right away you can spotdodge it and punish.


As stated before sonic can not RELIABLY punish spotdodges as no character with out a lingering hit box can. But Fair is definitely your most viable approach due to its multiple hit boxes. Jab can be stopped with one spotdodge as well.

ANY MOVE WITH MUTLIPLE HITBOXES **** SPOTDODGES

Also even if sonic connects with his bair it is still in our favor because he is degenerating his only quick kill move. Win/Win situation for fox. Aganist sonic players I live to at least 150% a stock because they can't kill me.

SONIC DOES NOT HAVE ROY SYNDROME SO WHY WOULD HIM HITTING US BE BAD?

Match Ups are based off the abilities of top level player and how they use their charcter. So based off of this I can safely say that fox should be able to laser safely if that fox player is in fact truly a top level fox. So 100 lazars a min is doable

You are not even good a basic smash math so you


Spotdodges do beat everything. Whats your point? If you know your opponents KO moves and how they can use them then spotdodging will help prevent you from dieing. So in conclusion sonic has 2 kill move fsmash and b air. fsmash is spotdodgable and bair may connect maybe 35% of the time if fox plays correctly and even then it could end up being degenerated if he does connect alot

No no they don't do you know how to charge smashes you punish spotdodges like that too.


Who is an idiot?
4Stupid

Don't you think something is wrong when everyone is against you?

 

[KillerJawz]

Sorry I dont play wifi but Im sure I could beat you anyday of the week dude. The point was that accurate spotdodging is not punishable which was my original statement. And i bet $5000 i could get 3 spotdodges off on you in a row and you wouldnt be able to connect with a single attack......

Let alone the fact that I don't play Fox, but I also never at any point said I could beat you. Now watch your tongue.

Soooooooooooooooooooooo like I said if you use lazar and force approach you constrict sonic to two options attack or shield and both are in foxes favor 60/40 match up imo.

Nice writeup. *Claps*

 

[Blacknight99923]

Sorry I dont play wifi but Im sure I could beat you anyday of the week dude. The point was that accurate spotdodging is not punishable which was my original statement. And i bet $5000 i could get 3 spotdodges off on you in a row and you wouldnt be able to connect with a single attack......

Soooooooooooooooooooooo like I said if you use lazar and force approach you constrict sonic to two options attack or shield and both are in foxes favor 60/40 match up imo.

your digging your own grave sis

 

[AvaricePanda]

In that example, you posted, Tyrant spotdodged because a grab was likely afterwards, and the grab would have connected but TKD didn't do it quickly enough.

I don't see why you think spotdodges beat everything. Spotdodges beat certain moves if they're done at the same time AND YOU GUESS CORRECTLY. If an opponent notices you like to spotdodge, they can just charge a smash, do a lingering hitbox move, do a low-cooldown move like jab to bait the spotdodge and punish with something else, or just wait.

In your example with Sonic's approaching, if you spotdodge and he doesn't commit to an attack, you get punished. And you can't say, "oh well just do something else," because you can't react to like 4 frames start-up of an attack. You can't do everything at once. You either spotdodge and hope he commits, or don't spotdodge and hope he doesn't commit. If you spotdodge once, he can just mix up what he's doing or delay what he's doing to punish you.

And if you spotdodge after SHDLing all that does is make you more punishable. Characters punish SHDL by punishing it when Fox is in the air lasering, not when he lands. If you spotdodge when you land, even if they miss the punish when you're in the air they get a second chance when you're on the ground. That pattern is easy to read, so I could just run up to you and charge an F-smash and kill you lol.

btw, 3 spotdodges in a row for Fox is 75 frames, which is 3 iterations of:
Frame 1, spotdodge starts, vulnerable
2-20, spotdodge, invincible
21-25, spotdodge, vulnerable (+1 frame if you do another, + more if you don't buffer it perfectly)

75 frames is slightly over a second (60 frames) and the only way you aren't getting punished is if your opponent is nowhere near you, or they are whiffing at all of your vulnerable frames, in which case they're bad.

I'm honestly just trying to help you when I say spotdodges aren't that good.

 

[Conviction]

Where is our preistess for 4stupid?

 

[Blacknight99923]

panda why do you have to be nice to the idiot

 

[shikashake2]

As stated before sonic can not RELIABLY punish spotdodges as no character with out a lingering hit box can.

Spotdodges do beat everything.

^ Self contradiction.

Sonic's U-smash also has a lingering hitbox, I meant that d-air would be used for KOing, sorry if I was unclear on that. You should be able to hit with at least one of the three hits Sonic's jab has even when spotdodged, and holding the button likely will cause you to hit with all three. Your own personal experience against Sonic players is not a relevant argument. Sonic is fast and has jumping prowess, so any competent Sonic should be able to punish more than a few lazers at once, 100 lazers per minute will just get you killed. Now I think it would be best if you left this thread.

 

[#HBC | J]

Sorry I dont play wifi but Im sure I could beat you anyday of the week dude. The point was that accurate spotdodging is not punishable which was my original statement. And i bet $5000 i could get 3 spotdodges off on you in a row and you wouldnt be able to connect with a single attack......

Okay seriously i have no clue who you are but KJ is no pushover and that is a match I would love to see.

Please i've been reading these pages cuz I was told to but now i just have to post. Stop posting so much with so little in them. >_> it is not helping you in the long run and your just digging a bigger grave ;_;

 

[AvaricePanda]

panda why do you have to be nice to the idiot

Cause it's not like you know everything about this game. I did and said dumb things when I was starting out in this game, even when I'd been playing it for a few months. And I'm sure everyone's done the same. It's one thing to say, "rolling is bad," but if you don't explain why a lot of people will assume it isn't and keep thinking they're right if it works for them.

same thing with when I first got into the competitive scene and thought tiers were dumb and i beat my brother with lucas lol.

just because someone says something wrong doesn't warrant being a **** towards them. granted, 4BDN, you shouldn't be calling out people like that who've made more of a name in the tourney scene than you have and saying you'd own them, that's also unwarranted.

Also, 4Biddin I didn't realize you were ED. I've played you before then, at least in doubles.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Cause it's not like you know everything about this game. I did and said dumb things when I was starting out in this game, even when I'd been playing it for a few months. And I'm sure everyone's done the same. It's one thing to say, "rolling is bad," but if you don't explain why a lot of people will assume it isn't and keep thinking they're right if it works for them.

same thing with when I first got into the competitive scene and thought tiers were dumb and i beat my brother with lucas lol.

just because someone says something wrong doesn't warrant being a **** towards them. granted, 4BDN, you shouldn't be calling out people like that who've made more of a name in the tourney scene than you have and saying you'd own them, that's also unwarranted.

Also, 4Biddin I didn't realize you were ED. I've played you before then, at least in doubles.

but its fun feeding trolls..............

 

[Trillion]

Spot Dodge beats everything in the game so if you spot dodge after each laser attempt your safe. I have yet to see anyone able to punish spot dodges and read them correctly.

Soooooooooooooooooooooo like I said if you use lazar and force approach you constrict sonic to two options attack or shield and both are in foxes favor 60/40 match up imo.

60/40? Spot dodge beats EVERYTHING, so thus, Fox should have a 100/0 match up against every character in the game. Congrats. You are now SS Tier

 

[Thebest1pj]

fox is openly deceptive is the best in the universe.

jab>spotdodge

/end

 

[4Biddin]

Long list of qoutes ahead....

panda why do you have to be nice to the idiot

Why have you not said anything relative to the matchup yet. Plz just leave.....

Where is our preistess for 4stupid?

Don't take it personal that I critiqued one of your vids you put up vs a sonic and watched you play the match up completely wrong. I said it was a good vid and that your fox was good not great though. No need for childish name calling. Until you can laser like a pro please do not speak down to me or call me out of my name. I have seen your vids your fox needs alot of work you full hop when you try to laser any fox main will get punished for that......

In that example, you posted, Tyrant spotdodged because a grab was likely afterwards, and the grab would have connected but TKD didn't do it quickly enough.

I don't see why you think spotdodges beat everything. Spotdodges beat certain moves if they're done at the same time AND YOU GUESS CORRECTLY. If an opponent notices you like to spotdodge, they can just charge a smash, do a lingering hitbox move, do a low-cooldown move like jab to bait the spotdodge and punish with something else, or just wait.

In your example with Sonic's approaching, if you spotdodge and he doesn't commit to an attack, you get punished. And you can't say, "oh well just do something else," because you can't react to like 4 frames start-up of an attack. You can't do everything at once. You either spotdodge and hope he commits, or don't spotdodge and hope he doesn't commit. If you spotdodge once, he can just mix up what he's doing or delay what he's doing to punish you.

And if you spotdodge after SHDLing all that does is make you more punishable. Characters punish SHDL by punishing it when Fox is in the air lasering, not when he lands. If you spotdodge when you land, even if they miss the punish when you're in the air they get a second chance when you're on the ground. That pattern is easy to read, so I could just run up to you and charge an F-smash and kill you lol.

btw, 3 spotdodges in a row for Fox is 75 frames, which is 3 iterations of:
Frame 1, spotdodge starts, vulnerable
2-20, spotdodge, invincible
21-25, spotdodge, vulnerable (+1 frame if you do another, + more if you don't buffer it perfectly)

75 frames is slightly over a second (60 frames) and the only way you aren't getting punished is if your opponent is nowhere near you, or they are whiffing at all of your vulnerable frames, in which case they're bad.

I'm honestly just trying to help you when I say spotdodges aren't that good.

The point of the example was to show that if sonic approaches he will lose in the end hence why the grab fox attempted didnt work. Same thing applies to a approaching sonic. And charge smashes are a great way to punish but fox has time to jab after the animation is through. It is not that easy to punish smart spotdodges.(Im not saying to randomly do spot dodges im sayin to use spot dodges as needed when it come down to it. Such as when sonic approaches. Its a valid defense)

As stated before sonic can not RELIABLY punish spotdodges as no character with out a lingering hit box can.

Spotdodges do beat everything.

^ Self contradiction.

Sonic's U-smash also has a lingering hitbox, I meant that d-air would be used for KOing, sorry if I was unclear on that. You should be able to hit with at least one of the three hits Sonic's jab has even when spotdodged, and holding the button likely will cause you to hit with all three. Your own personal experience against Sonic players is not a relevant argument. Sonic is fast and has jumping prowess, so any competent Sonic should be able to punish more than a few lazers at once, 100 lazers per minute will just get you killed. Now I think it would be best if you left this thread.

Fox is a great evasive character and combined with a very very good mix up game when he gets inside. Sonic on the other hand is at his best when he is trying to be caught by his opponent. Sonic approaching= Fox winning the match. I know this may sound like it may not be true but trust me it is Foxes jab alone leads into just about his entire arsenal while sonics aerials are not as favorable.

Lets compare

FOX
-dair OOS to jab,shine,down or up smash depending on the %, spotdodge to bait a counter attack and punish.
-nair OOS can be comboded to usmash or jab at certain percentages
-Fthrow which can lead to tech chases
-auto canceled fair is the ultimate spacer
-laser add 1-3 percent with each hit.(Fox should easily be able to deal 40% a stock with just lasers.


SONIC
-great dash attack that is fast
-low range low priority fair
-dair is only usable if used at max possible height otherwise it has punishable lag
-bair is a great move with good range and decent damage(Sonics BnB imo)
-jab has slower startup than foxes (correct me if im wrong)
-dtilt is also a great move for ground based combat.

I didnt write up everything they can do but based on this fox is at the advantage close range and at distance

Cause it's not like you know everything about this game. I did and said dumb things when I was starting out in this game, even when I'd been playing it for a few months. And I'm sure everyone's done the same. It's one thing to say, "rolling is bad," but if you don't explain why a lot of people will assume it isn't and keep thinking they're right if it works for them.

same thing with when I first got into the competitive scene and thought tiers were dumb and i beat my brother with lucas lol.

just because someone says something wrong doesn't warrant being a **** towards them. granted, 4BDN, you shouldn't be calling out people like that who've made more of a name in the tourney scene than you have and saying you'd own them, that's also unwarranted.

Also, 4Biddin I didn't realize you were ED. I've played you before then, at least in doubles.

Yea i think we actually. But if someone discredits me and wants to talk down then they deserve to be told they would get owned if they actually played me. No offence towards you because you were actually respectful about most of your contradictories.

Post counts are bad imo because ppl just blow you off once they see that you have a low post count. I have been playing and studying this game a long time so Im sure im no where near noob status. I know what I am talking about.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Long list of qoutes ahead....


Why have you not said anything relative to the matchup yet. Plz just leave.....

I am by saying your wrong about spot dodges.

secondly you don't laser or do anything really if your going to get punished its common sense.

don't laser when your going to get hit...it really isn't that hard of a concept to comprehend.


secondly why is fair a good spacer? it doesn't have a lot of range and its not particularly safe, I mean you can SDI it, its range isn't that great, and it doesn't have teh GTFO properties every other spacer has....... not to mention it can auto cancel but it still has lag which is something sonic is good at punishing....


also people blow off your post count total when you say dumb stuff and don't have solid backing for any of your points


also if spot dodge is unbeatable then why isn't everyone spamming the **** out of it....even dumb peopel learn eventually

 

[ShadowLink84]

Can you guys stop quoting the fool and close the topic?
Iblis summed it nicely at page 9.

*has stiffneck*
OWWWWW

 

[Blacknight99923]

Can you guys stop quoting the fool and close the topic?
Iblis summed it nicely at page 9.

*has stiffneck*
OWWWWW

*gives phone number of a masseuse

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay seriously guys, stop the flaming and just get back to the topic at hand.

Have we even gone over the sheer basics of this MU yet?

 

[Conviction]

Yes yes we have, I gave a vid of gameplay and the list of how to punish all of Sonic's moves.

P.S. 4Biddin you are a random and should lurk more and don't act like you aren't talking down to everyone else as of right now you are an useless resource. Plain as that and I'm not agruing with you or you bad smash logic anymore. All you have done is derail this thread, try to critique my Fox with not any real advice, make false claims, and not only piss off the sonics, but other characters, and the Fox Boards. More importantly if the Fox Boards don't like you why post here. Also I would like to mention they are thinking about putting me on GA's Power Rankings, so how do I exactly not qualify as good? Please go on as you have no data or vids to back up any of your silly claims.

Oh wait here you go to almost forgot.

Welcome the Fox Boards, the furriest of them where we go pew pew and Usmash people into next tuesday.

If you need any help or getting around here or the rest of the Smashboards. Feel free to ask me or anyone else around the boards. Please place your info into the Fox Directory so we can keep up with you and your future with us, don't make new threads unless it is something really important, look and ask in the Q and A thread first, all Fox videos are in the Fox Archive and his frame data and combo/string info in Uzi's thread. These are all stickied so you can't miss them. We hope to see great things from you as a Fox main now.

EDIT: Here is the important stuff for people who are trying to learn.

My turn to post a vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKrnRDNc1I0&feature=related

Errr after some more recent gameplay against sonic I stand at 55/45 Fox's Favor.

I now do agree with the sonic mains it's not as easy to laser camp but it is possible. Sonic's Spindash tricks make good approaches people, plus at time sonic will run you down before you can even rush away, once you close stick it to him and knock him away. Camping is very weird is this MU it's not the typical lolz let me laser you. DI Sonic's Fair Down and away or Down and towards him if he spaces it bad. Sonic's shouldn't be using Dair cause you will get punished via Usmash.

How to Punish Sonic (all was tested at tourney)
Nair- is OoS Usmashable and easy to shieldgrab, on a whiff you can Fair, Bair wait till he starts his fall and dair, Usmash, grab, Dsmash, or Fsmash (don't ever expect to see this move from a good sonic though)
Fair- is OoS Usmashable you can't shieldgrab it, on whiff you can beat it with Fair, Usmash, or Bair
Dair- is OoS Usmashable and also another one easy to shieldgrab, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dair follow up him
Rising Bair- is NOT OoS Usmashable sonic is completely safe, on whiff strike back with Fair,Bair, or Usmash
Falling Bair- will cause lag which you can unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff grab,Usmash
Don't even worry about Uair cause you won't even see a sonic try to Uair a grounded opponet if he does just **** him
Fsmash - IS NOT OoS Usmashable BUT you can Unshield and Dash Usmash, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash
Dsmash - is another that is not OoS Usmashable but you unshield and dash Usmash or Dash attack, on whiff the best reconmendation is SH Dair
Usmash is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff punish with what you feel like (this is another move you shouldn't expect a Sonic to do against a grounded opponet)
Ftilt- can only be shieldgrabbed, on whiff dash attack or Dash Usmash all other moves are too slow
Dtilt - can be tricky you can't shieldgrab but if you predict it you can SH Dair over his Dtilt, on whiff Usmash, grab, or Dash attack
Utilt- is OoS Usmashable and can be shieldgrabbed, on whiff Usmash, grab, ftilt, reverse Utilt, don't aerial this move's whiff
DO NOT TRY AND SHIELD ANY OF HIS SPINDASHES! If you can see them coming you stop with basically and move i would go the safe way and use a falling aerial on it though, use Nair or Dair, jab and utilt does clank with it though
Lol don't try to punish the rise in Sonic's Spring Jump, read his fall and punish Uair will be best since it outproitizes all of his aerials
Don't even worry about Homing Attack don't expect a good one to use this either he does it's easy to dodge and punish, interupt with Fair


Sonic cannot Shieldgrab our Bair,Fair,Ftilt,Utilt(spaced)

Hope this helps Foxes trying to figure out how punish his speed.

Camping Sonic is more technical like camping Falco.

 

[TKD]

55/45 sounds like another, tougher match-up to me. But who cares, heh