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Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

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gunterrsmash01

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XxBlackxX

XxBlackxX

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Denzi said:
Just thought I'd point this out:

We're going to need to re-analyze our matchups against the characters that we could 0 death. The other boards are catching on: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211339
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yeah, ive noticed that too, but the CG->spike is still efficient, just that they won't die from it. however, this adds more variety to what we can do after the CG and they go off the edge, we can "fake" a spike, by jumping after them and NOT spiking, so if they try to SDI they'll fair and be edgehogged/edgeguarded anyway (as most characters that can be 0-deathed have **** recovery). we can mix the fake spike with real spikes, making it so that they have to predict right or they still lose the stock.
 
Vlade

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Oh S***.

Actually, who cares. Like Black said, most characters will die when they try to SDI, but actually use a fair. That would really demoralise an opponent who thought that they could survive the spike. Besides, if the opponent does catch on we can just spike them into the ground and tech chase another grab or something to add even more damage. Then it's 'just' getting the kill.

About re-evaluating 0-death characters, an example would be wolf. He used to be 70:30 but now he would be 60:40 at least. Because even without the 0-death, falco can cause destruction against these characters.
 
XxBlackxX

XxBlackxX

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@ Blad01


Alright, so it seems that the OP with all the matchup listings is pretty outdated, so at the falco back room we "revisited" some matches that we felt needed to be corrected. here's 2 right two but they might be more changes...

Ice Climbers

XxBlackxX:

summary:

65:35 IC's
this is a hard matchup for falco, i wouldn't play it if i had the chance to CP a different character. but if you have to, your best chances of winning are just camping with lasers and spacing with IAPs. if you want to win, play like a complete ***! other things to remember include trying to kill nana first if they are seperated, and never try to start a CG or fight the IC up close, especially on the ground. in the air, you have an advantage, however, make sure to DI if you see/predict the shield so that you don't get shield grabbed. taking the fight on top of a platform is also smart as it weakens thir grab game. IAP'ing back and forth between platforms is a pretty good idea. your KO moves are the same as always. also you should remember that the IC's (desynched or not) can grab you out of the phantasm with proper timing so don't mindlessly spam it.
basically, to win this matchup with falco, you HAVE to play extremely smart and make as few mistakes as you can, because 1 grab= 1 stock. camping and IAPs are key.
Click to expand...

Snake

XxBlackxX:

summary:
55-45 falco

well first of all, falco wins the strict camping game, though snake definitely does have a lot of stuff to play with, grenades, mines, c4, and the such. lasers can also blow up the nades.

second, a great tool falco has is his CG. CG -> spike, if nothing else, racks up about 60% damage (more if he has to c4 himself to recover), and racking up damage is crucial in this matchup as snake is quite heavy and hard to KO, which is falco's hardest part of this matchup.
the CG also has good follow-ups, which may lead to a early gimp. snake isn't exactly easy to gimp, but it's not too difficult, however recently i found that snake could survive the cypher grab with a c4 and a tech. anyways, your best bet after snake has flown all the way up (as they usually do) is to try and catch him with an attack on the way down or just laser them as they come up. cypher grabs are still good to go for, but an experienced snake probably won't die from it.

in the air, i think falco wins out as well. snake's aerials, well powerful, are slower than falco's. use falco's nair to counter his SH'ed aerials, and use bair as your attacking aerial.

the ground game, it's pretty much even. snake can camp with grenades and space with ftilt ( a move that does 21%), also his tilts are really fast, multihit, and have quite a bit of range. snake also does have the dthrow tech chase, which could net him a lot of % if he knows to do it correctly. falco has his usual set of moves, and jab, ftilt, and reflector are still useful.

in KO power, snake is the clear winner. usually snake's ftilt is diminished by now so i would just worry about the utilt. it still kills falco wayyy earlier than falco could hope to kill snake, though (except gimps, of course). falco's ability to rack up damage offsets this somewhat, although snake also has effective ways of dealing damage.

the key to defeating snake is playing smart. you have to pay careful attention to his grenades, mines, and c4 placement so you don't make a mistake and get hit by them. overall, this is a tough match, but if played right, i do belive falco has a however slight advantage.
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M@v

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Ill post it uo tomorrow, but I had a really close and epic fox vs Falco set at my tourney. Once I get the vids uploaded tomorrow morning, Ill post them here. I think the match is a real good representation of high level Fox vs Falco.

Also, if fox turtles in his shine, Falcos blaster becomes near useless. I conpletely shut down the falco's spam game with it, and forced him to approach the whole time.
 
King Funk

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On the other thread, most people have agreed on 55-45 in Falco's favor against Fox, and the discussion about the matchup there is over.
 
Samuelson

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Is there a reason why Falco would have any sort of an advantage vs Lucario?

Falco can't kill reliably which means that every stock Lucario has will last until around 150. Falco can't CG Lucario but Lucario can CG Falco. Falco gets screwed by Lucario's combos but Lucario can get out of almost every combo Falco has. Lucario out spaces Falco and out prioritizes Falco. The only thing that Falco has on Lucario is that he can camp but Lucario can camp also...to a certain extent. Just gotta watch out for that reflector.
 
Denzi

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Well, like you said, Falco outcamps Lucario. He also canCG lucario with "chainspiking", which is Dthrow -> SHFF Dair -> Turnaround regrab. Falco's "reliable kill" is laser -> DAC, and Fsmash kills fairly early if it hits.

That's really all I can think of and I get a lot of kills on my friends Lucario by gimping him, because like Falco, if you can't up-B past the ledge, there's not much hope.
 
Gishnak

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Samuelson said:
Is there a reason why Falco would have any sort of an advantage vs Lucario?

Falco can't kill reliably which means that every stock Lucario has will last until around 150. Falco can't CG Lucario but Lucario can CG Falco. Falco gets screwed by Lucario's combos but Lucario can get out of almost every combo Falco has. Lucario out spaces Falco and out prioritizes Falco. The only thing that Falco has on Lucario is that he can camp but Lucario can camp also...to a certain extent. Just gotta watch out for that reflector.
Click to expand...
We need to play more so we can analyze this matchup. :bee:

<--Dishnak.
 
Crackle

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Since the thread is not moving right about now I just thought I could ask....what is "IAP'ing between platforms"?

And if I'm not mistaken "DAC", though I don't know what it actually stands for, is the dash-attack cancelled upsmash right?
 
Denzi

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Crackle said:
Since the thread is not moving right about now I just thought I could ask....what is "IAP'ing between platforms"?

And if I'm not mistaken "DAC", though I don't know what it actually stands for, is the dash-attack cancelled upsmash right?
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IAP stands for Immediate Aerial Phantasm, where you jump and immediately Phantasm (suprise!), which cuts down on cooldown lag so that you can move more quickly after Phantasming. IAPing between platforms is just (on a stage like Battlefield) IAPing from one platform to the other and going back and forth.

yes, DAC (or DACUS) is Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash.
 
Crackle

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How did you do that sig? I just attempted to make one and failed miserably (the filter system on photoshop is too addicting and too good at ruining sigs xD)
 
Denzi

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Vlade

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I don't think I'm being bias lol.

Fox:

-Sort of outcamps falco since he can sit in his reflector
-SH dair approach which combos into utilts, etc
-Kills better
-Gimps our recovery

Falco:

-Chaingrab
-Better laser (as long as it isn't reflected)
-Better aerials, and more priority
-Gimps fox's recovery
-Better close combat game
 
NJzFinest

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SH dair approach lacks sooo much horizontal range, it's going to be very difficult to land on a campy or well spacing Falco. The uptilt after the Dair isn't even guaranteed, but Dair to grab is pretty solid.

He can't outcamp Falco since Falco too has a reflector (which can be used as spam) and a faster / hell of a lot better Forward B. Because of this, he can constantly force the approach. Fox's lasers don't even go that far :(

Where Fox really shines is definitely in the KOing, if Falco had a upsmash or bair that strong, I literally say he'd be the best character xD The reason why I love using Fox is pretty much these two moves and his Fair.

So basically, Falco forces Fox to approach, yet he eats his approaches. He has a much much easier time racking damage, yet is more lacking in the KOing and recovery areas. Thing is, Fox isn't a heavy character... so when you think of it, it doesn't matter that much.

Also, about being bias, have you guys seen the Fox forums? OOOHHH MMAAANNN.

But yeah, regardless of how much I love using Fox, IMO the matchup is 70:30 or 75:25 for Falco, probably Fox's worse matchup in the game. The matchup being in Falco's Favor is a fact, but the ratios being that high is purely my opinion and simply out of my experience of using both characters as mains + simple vids of Falcos destroying Fox players. So... I wouldn't be able to carry on a 3/4 page flame war on this one :p
 
Vlade

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Well, actually I think pikachu is fox's worse match-up, but anyway... let's not start a flame war where you'll win ;)

We both agree it is definitely no less than 60:40 falco's favour.
 
Teran

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Pikachu vs Fox should be illegal.
 
E

Elyssa Xey Hexen

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Denzi said:
So should MK vs anybody :)
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Remember when someone from MK boards made a match-up thread with MK vs Falco being 55:45 Falco's Favor? We should have jumped on the chance to get people to think that Falco is slightly superior instead of thinking that it is 50:50.
 
Vorguen

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NJzFinest said:
S

But yeah, regardless of how much I love using Fox, IMO the matchup is 70:30 or 75:25 for Falco, probably Fox's worse matchup in the game.
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Sheik and Pikachu have to be Fox's worst matchups easily.

Pikachu can Chaingrab Fox into ridiculous 80%... and Sheik has a F-tilt lock on Fox which she can move on to her U-smash for a 0 to death kill if done correctly.
 
Marcbri

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zss ***** fox too, but well this isn't about fox other match-ups xD

IMO falco vs fox is 6-4 falco.
falco has the chaingrab to start with some important % lead, but fox can land some good combos thanks to his dair to recover fast (as someone said grab is usually the safest bet for dair and it can be pretty useful.)
still , chaingrab >> fox's combos
in long distances falco has the edge, better lasers, better shine and the phantasm, so fox has to be always near falco if he wants to have a chance
offstage fox can gimp falco with the shine waay easier than falco can spike fox, but as long as falco plays safe he won't be gimped.
and finally fox is better when going for the kill since he has better kill moves and a safe way to hit with usmash.

as long as falco plays with good spacing, punishing fox's dairs he should win easily.
 
Vorguen

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Falco vs ZSS is in Falco's favor in my opinion. Falco can outcamp and outpressure her from far away easily. He can shine her stun-gun in her face, and the fact that she is light helps with KO. His reflector definately helps against her armor pieces too.
 
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SpartanX123

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Falco Vs ZSS

I dont think this one is too hard,

She cant be Chaingrabbed too easily in all my experiences
But you can pressure her with good lazer uses

Also,with her tether you can Edgehog her quite easily

Not to mention she is pretty light it seems so you can kill her quite easily


im going to have to say


70-30 in Falcos Favor
 
Crackle

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There aren't many ZSS's out there. Lasers do kick the crap out of them though, they love to charge that blaster gun and shoot for a stun > approach but well we reflect + laser that.
 
Vorguen

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Also Falco's reflector is especially useful for those short-range projectiles since they tend to disappear before they reflect back.

So definately Falco's (and Pit's would be included I guess) reflector poses a real nuisance to ZSS.
 
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