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Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

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JST

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
150
Falco ***** DDD.

Lasers, speed in every single aspect, laser-setups, can't be CGed, can CG DDD to like 50, combos DDD like mad...

The only things that DDD has over Falco is that Falco has a fair amount of trouble killing him and Falco has hard time approaching DDD (Which he never even should be doing). That's IT.
 

gunterrsmash01

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
2,533
laser his *** off. DDD is gonna try grabbing you alot and tech chasing, so run up and spotdodge and punish with jabs and grabs. jabs and grabs are what hurt DDD must. if hes above 40 follow up your dthrows into dairs into uptilt
 

sandwhale

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
236
Location
switzerland
yeah the matchup's pretty much ****. lasers hurt DDD real bad, he can't Cg you but if you grab him you can get him to like60-70% with Cg and follow ups. just watch out for the early gimps and you'll basically control the match
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
So you all agree on a easy match-up ?

You know that DDD can easily kill you with his up Tilt, right ? That the fact that he can't CG you doesn't mean he can't techchase you, right ?
Moreover, it's hard to kill DDD, while he kills you easily ?

So 70-30 for everyone ? I think it's more like 65-35. :)
 

pure_awesome

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
1,229
Location
Montreal, Canada
I played my first good DDD a while ago, and I'm calling 60-40.

A good DDD will ignore his lack of a chaingrab and focus on building up just enough damage to knock you offstage with Fthrow or Bthrow. From there, Falco's hilariously bad recovery gets the crap kicked out of it by DDD's multiple jumps and awesome Bair.


That being said, if Falco can chaingrab to the edge at any point in the match, it should be a stock. He's a huge, easy-to-spike target, and his jumps don't bring him back high enough to not have to use his UpB. So chaingrab, spike, and wait for the UpB. When it comes, wait until he gets to the peak of his jump, where he no longer has super armor, but doesn't have a hitbox yet, and spike him again. Of course, expect him to cancel it at wierd times to mindgame you, and plan accordingly.


As you can see, both characters are capable of, and will likely be gunning for, low-percent kills. Falco has the advantage in this regard, since his is almost guaranteed in the hands of a good Falco, stems from a single grab, and doesn't need percent tacked on previously to become viable.

If neither character can get an early kill, the stock will move slightly into DDD's favour. Falco has enough trouble killing as it is, so now that his opponent is one of the heaviest in the game and has multiple jumps, you can expect DDD to live to some insane percents. On the flipside, all DDD still has to do is get you offstage and beat the heck out of you with minions and bairs until you get KO'd. On-stage, minions, RAR bairs, fullhop dairs, and ftilts all beat out SHPhantasm handily, effectively eliminating one of our most useful spacing tools.

All in all, I still give Falco the advantage. Chaingrabs being essentially a free stock is too good, and he can more than hold his own in the later stages. Falco's laser game doesn't care about Waddle Dees and Doos, and Gordos travel so slowly that they can be reflected on reaction. In close, Falco can string together some nice 'combos" with Utilts, Nairs, Dairs, Jabs and Grabs. You just have to play smart, not let DDD outspace you, and don't get grabbed near the edge. 60-40 for Falco.

I personally recommend Smashville as your go-to stage against DDD. It's nice and flat, so you have plenty of room to Laser DDD into oblivion, and the simplicity of the stage means you can punish him any time he needs to use his UpB. Plus, the moving platform can arrive at some pretty opportune moments to bail you out when you're trying to recover against a wall of DDD Bairs and flying Waddle Dees.
 

MorphedChaos

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
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1,231
Location
CT / United States
We are having the same discussion on D3 vs Falco at the D3 board, you guys could pop in there and see what you think, maybe post on how Falco beats D3 and get good feedback on how D3 beats Falco?

Also, FD is probably your best stage, as Smashvile is one of D3's best stages due to that moving platform.
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
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This week : UPDATES

So we have already discussed 10 match-ups. Now, it's time for me but also for you, to update these match-ups, and eventually update some advise, since they are maybe not good anymore.
Thanks to everybody that will check the first page, and help to make this compilation of threads even better. :D

UPDATES WE HAVE TO DO :
  • Check all the match-ups i've summed up, and tell me if there are errors, or bad advices.
  • Fill the "Video Example" and "Counterpick" fields.
  • Check if the match-up averages are the same now.

UPDATES DONE :
  • Video Example for Metaknight, SNake, Zelda.
  • Updated the MK match-up : 55-45.
  • Added ROB's Summary.

THANKS !
 

wangston

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Messages
1,660
Location
Provo Utah
Are people forgetting that DDD has waddle to throw ever where. They block all your ground lasers and your second laser shot for shdl. A smart DDD would know to keep out at least one waddle so that you can't spam him with that shdl. I don't think the higher laser hits him.
 

J4pu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,343
Location
Torrance/Irvine, CA, USA
Since you would rather keep the counter picks in this thread, and I want to hear them now, can you either set it up so we can have a counter pick discussion for all characters as of right now, so i dont have to wait until every character gets fully discussed? Otherwise I'm just gunna go ahead and get my thread up for CP's. I won't make it for a day or two, and you could always just transfer any info in it to this thread once you get to that character, or not, i don't plan on getting a sticky for it, i just want to know all the CP's.

ON-TOPIC to this thread:
phantasm is no longer a safe way to return to the stage against MK, rather it's a free tornado catch.
 

Cornzix

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
3
Nice. In my opinion Falco has a smal advantage over Sheik. Falco would probably have a been better against this matchup if Sheik wouldnt have had her needles. You would be able to outcamp her really easily =3
 

mimic_king

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
1,002
Falco has more of a large advantage over DeDeDe than small. His chain grab works really well against DeDeDe since DeDeDe falls fast.
 

Marcbri

Smash Lord
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NNID
Marcbri
Let's try to have an acceptable match-up guide for Falco D:

Falco vs D3 is 60-40 for me

even without the chaingrab D3 can be really annoying, hard to kill, utilt kills you early, and his shieldgrab has crazy range.

The key of this match-up spacing, if you don't get shieldgrabbed it will be A LOT more easy,his grabs are crazy strong and good D3s usually send you offstage again and again with them where is not where you want to be

That's it, falco has the advantage but not by much

I'll try to fight some more a really good D3 I know to learn more about the match-up ;)
 

Steeler

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 5, 2006
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Steeler
wtf the type chart model is mine, not jippy sol's. :(

also i hope you guys cover pt soonish.
 

Shady Penguin

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
1,150
Location
North Carolina
I noticed that MK is sky blue on your chart, yet you say Falco is 45-55 against him.

Also, I agree with Snake vs. Falco being around even.

Edit: Looks like falco freak already picked up on it.
 

DUB

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
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Location
Wilmington, NC
Why is the IC vs. Falco matchup listed as 5:5? I just read through the discussion and in no way does it seem even for Falco. The write-up analysis is pretty vague too ( no offense ). Just saying it looks like the match-up needs to be re-analyzed. A character who can't be chain-grabbed, who has a terrific grab-game, and a good defensive/camp game seems like they should be at least 6:4 versus Falco. I picked IC's as a counter just off what I read on the Falco/IC's boards. Don't see how it's 5:5
 

Kefrius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
160
I think Falco could Bair Wario to keep a distance from his aerial moves and SHL to also keep him away.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
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Chapel Hill, NC
I'm curious about the Marth matchup. 40:60? Seems like the consensus everywhere else is 45-55 at worst. Where does the padding come from?
 

Melee1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
375
Location
Dallas,TX
Ice Climbers counters falco 7-3 in my opinion. I have no trouble with falco at all.. Easy to cg and theres really no setup Falco has that really has an answer to cg. Message SK92 about the ic matchup and its clearly in iceclimbers favor atleast 6-4.. Falco is a great character though..
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
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70-30 ôO

Well, we can camp ICs more than he can camp us right ? And from what i've seen, ICs shield is not good at all... When you hit it, it pushes them back. (So SH Dair is a pretty safe approach)
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
If we let other forums dictate falco's matchups, everyone would go 70-30. One gets the impression that there must be a lot of bad falco players out there losing to these people.
 

Pwner

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
14
Mario has a good chance of keeping Falco away but then again, Falco will get 2 Mario
 

basilioyugi

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
44
Location
Panama
Ice Climbers counters falco 7-3 in my opinion. I have no trouble with falco at all.. Easy to cg and theres really no setup Falco has that really has an answer to cg. Message SK92 about the ic matchup and its clearly in iceclimbers favor atleast 6-4.. Falco is a great character though..
i agree with you and i would even say its a 8-2 in IC favor, falco doesnt have a good attack that can separate the IC`s without beaing in a grabable position
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Throw in some Phantasms. Also, Dthrow lasers have splash damage. Remember, the IC player has to stay desynchronized, so it's not just about separating them, but also getting them when they're resynced.
 

gunterrsmash01

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
2,533
it says that we have covered 15 matchups, but i have only seen 7 or 8 indiviudal matchup threads. can someone pinpoint me to all 15 matchup threads?
 

fox219

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
365
Location
CA
From what I've seen with this game there are only a few levels of priority. There are 3 in my opinion and they are 'invincible', 'interruptable', and 'normal'. Most of all attacks have normal priority. The ones with invincible would be like Falco's Lasers. Interruptable would be the air part of Falco's forward smash or his reflector(It can't be pinged, but if Falco is hit, it will be stopped) Normal ones are every other attack. The reason that some characters seem to have more priority(MK) is because they reach farther. If an attack can reach a character's body(where it can be hit) then they will get hit. Who ever reaches that point first will get the hit. All of Meta-Knights attacks have major 'priority' because they are fast and reach far. When attacks ping, two attacks just hit against hitboxes, not the fighters. I have jabbed a Donkey Kong down smash before. Meta-Knights glide attack beat my Forward Smash because it out reached it and got to me first. You can out prioritize the initial rising part of Meta-Knight's Up-B because when he starts to rise, he doesn't reach out.

By the way, I'm not talking about Falco's down air out prioritizing the very first frames of Meta-knights shuttle loop. I'm talking about when he's rising. Usually you could only catch this when you expect a Up-B from off the ledge seeing that he's already lower than you.

On a side note, I just started A-sticking (setting A to C-stick) It doesn't really change the aerial game aside from not auto fast falling when you down air (Helpful as ledge guard). Forward Smash is too slow to get on people consistantly so I'll just get it with the non-c-stick smash when I need to. I'll let you guys know if the tilts help for anything extra.
captain falcon's priority is actually decent. just time your attacks right .you can smash c stick and not fast fall
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Gheb, I made you guys a much nicer looking chart. What ever happened to that one?
Gheb ? There is no Gheb here :p

Well, i can't update by myself the chart your sent to me, so it's not updated with the last match-ups we've done... :x But i will ask you for this much nicer looking chart when we'll have done 20 match-ups ;)
 

gunterrsmash01

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
2,533
Hilarious, how this week is Pit, and that i am currently uploading 15 matches who are with my friend who plays Pit :).
 
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