Match-Up Discussion #7! Diddy Kong

[Player-3]

tbh if norfair was legal diddy would ban it

 

[Shaya]

I dont think Diddys too bad on norfair... Good luck getting to him at all if hes in the lowest centre platform with a percent lead.

 

[zer0.]

I dont think Diddys too bad on norfair... Good luck getting to him at all if hes in the lowest centre platform with a percent lead.

I'd wait until the lowest center platform is under the lava.

 

[tibs7]

Then you get at diddy when he has 2 nanas on a small platform lol get ***** son

 

[Lord Chair]

Picking Norfair means playing a different game. Yeah, you limit Diddy's nana game a bit, but you should know that you change all other aspects of the matchup as well. Both characters no longer have issues recovering, you no longer speak of ledge games and, quite frankly, you will never really be able to get proper stage control. That counts for both sides, so you could say it's a tossup between what's a worse situation: nanaless in the air for Diddy or Diddy having 2 nanas and stage control for Marth. Neither of these 2 situations will have the same impact they would have on e.g. Smashville.

Conclusion: Don't pick Norfair unless you know EXACTLY how to play this matchup on that stage. And I doubt a lot of people know it...

 

[Shaya]

Chair knows whats up. Going norfair is definitely not a stage Marth readily gains much on except against the characters he somewhat ***** anywhere...

oh yeah, 6666 posts, farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Just throwin out some possibilities.

 

[Player-3]

jerry seinfeld is a baller

 

[Reizilla]

I herd dat ADHD is on teh dark syd nao.

 

[Duskshadow]

I herd dat ADHD is on teh dark syd nao.

Why would ADHD abandon this? http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=26882

 

[Pierce7d]

Here's what you do.

Pressure Diddy
Don't get hit by Fair (understand that Fair will hit you)
Punish everything
Learn to use items, but don't necessarily throw them at Diddy, just learn to control them to protect yourself
Dolphin Slash appropriately.
Camp if he has two bananas out and is camping.
Get him off stage and pressure him for massive damage.
Gimp if possible.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Here's what you do.

Pressure Diddy
Don't get hit by Fair (understand that Fair will hit you)
Punish everything
Learn to use items, but don't necessarily throw them at Diddy, just learn to control them to protect yourself
Dolphin Slash appropriately.
Camp if he has two bananas out and is camping.
Get him off stage and pressure him for massive damage.
Gimp if possible.

Ha, I matched pierce's answer on Diddy, me thinks I'm getting somewhere with tackling MUs.

 

[Shaya]

Diddys fair is really awkward...
I think Im getting a better understanding of the MU though... Staying grounded Im finding is really helpful.
Not sure what you think about dtilt in this match up pierce, but it seems to easily zone a banana and even if diddy has a banana in hand, well spaced dtilt wont have banana hit you before you can shield.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Diddys fair is really awkward...
I think Im getting a better understanding of the MU though... Staying grounded Im finding is really helpful.
Not sure what you think about dtilt in this match up pierce, but it seems to easily zone a banana and even if diddy has a banana in hand, well spaced dtilt wont have banana hit you before you can shield.

Hmm I dunno, Dtilt seems risky at first sight. I have to see how it works in this MU. That last bit of info sounds mad promising though lol

 

[Shaya]

Dtilt has -9 on shields.
and im pretty sure on the 9th frame it isnt close enough to you... maybe it is :\

 

[Lord Chair]

-9? Frame data thread says otherwise. Either way, dtilt on Diddy's shield is meh since you're limiting yourself to, frankly, no options at all (provided he has a nana). Sure you can shield afterwards, but how advantageous is the situation in which you're pretty much stuck in your shield right in front of Diddy?

 

[Shaya]

Surely you know to trust my HARD WORK AND GUTS.
The frame data in general needs an updating. Youd be surprised to know neutral air can have +1 frame advantage on shield at specific timing for example.

 

[Lord Chair]

Yeah I always prefer your opinion over frame data threads tbh ^^, update that shizzle. Now that we're on frame data, Wolf's bair advantage = ?

To stay on topic, stick to FH or SHFF fairs when Diddy has a nana.

 

[Duskshadow]

How well does dancing blades work on Diddy when he has his bananas out? Is it still considered a good option to punish with?

 

[Reizilla]

Yeah I always prefer your opinion over frame data threads tbh ^^, update that shizzle. Now that we're on frame data, Wolf's bair advantage = ?

To stay on topic, stick to FH or SHFF fairs when Diddy has a nana.

9001 advantage

Diddy can just glide toss OoS, right? I'm feeling extremely dumb atm. >_<

 

[Lord Chair]

You can still punish with DB, so long as it's a punish and not used when you're not sure it hits. That's why it's called a punish. You should obviously not try to approach with it.

Diddy just glide toss OoS, right?

I have no idea what you're actually asking here

 

[Player-3]

reigun diddys normal standing nana OoS is like 3 or 4 frames, really stupid


glide toss is like 9 or 10 iirc

 

[clowsui]

no

normal standing nana toss has been corrected to 6

 

[Player-3]

it's still stupid


same as marths up b minus invinvibility but it has across the stage range, trips people, and doesn't put you in a **** me please position

 

[Reizilla]

Seriously? You can throw out of shield? No 7 frame shield drop?

 

[Player-3]

yes indeedy

 

[Reizilla]

Can't believe I never knew that. haha XD I do need to work on my item control >_<

 

[Lord Chair]

How could you miss that haha.

I don't remember the exact data, though normal throw OoS is indeed frame 6-7 and throwing the nana behind him is something like frame 13, which is slightly slow.

 

[Shaya]

Pretty sure forward thrown nana out of shield is 7 frames.
And by pretty sure I mean I did frame by frame pictures because diddy players like adhd wouldnt believe it otherwise.

Banana throw downwards is 6 frames.

Dtilting diddys shield with a nana in hand may restrict you to just shielding, but you must remember, Marth has pretty good oos options.
If diddy is within dtilt range and throws a banana at you, hes gonna get dolphin slashd.

Remember: he cannot grab with a banana in hand.
He can side b, which is ughh. But IIRC it comes out slower than reaction speed (?)

 

[Lord Chair]

Yeah the grab hitbox of Monkey Flip is remarkably slow. I dunno, Marth has options in the aforementioned situation, but I'm pretty sure you'd much rather want to avoid it. It kind of a midrisk low reward game, your defensive options are great. You can counter most followups of the nana with DS, though it remains a guessing game that leaves you with 13% damage without followup when you win it, and leaves Diddy with silly amounts of damage and an advantageous situation if he calls it right (and honestly, he'll probably call it right more often, watch out for nana throw > nothing, it beats an awesome amount of options you have).

I will repeat that last part for emphasize: nana on shield > wait beats most of your counters (DS, spotdodge, roll, jump).

 

[Shaya]

diddy throwing a banana within dtilt range will mean he will still be in lag when dolphin slash comes out.
UNLESS he glide tossed backwards.

 

[Lord Chair]

DS range is as much as dtilt? :O

 

[Shaya]

tippered dtilt has less frame advantage on shield than -9
So I was assuming untippered.

BUT, Dolphin slash has similar horizontal range when curved forward from the get go, yes.

 

[Lord Chair]

Well at -9, the nana will hit Marth in time I guess? Unless it travels 3 whole frames. Hmm, in retrospect, that may actually be the case. No time to test it though, should actually be learning for my finals ^^

 

[Shaya]

I dont think the banana will reach a marth behind a reasonably well spaced dtilt within 9 frames. I know at frame 8 it has barely left diddys hands.

 

[Omniturtle]

Forgive me if anyone has said this so far, but I haven't ever heard anyone else say this. When you take Diddy's bananas, DON'T GIVE THEM BACK!!!

Every time you snag one of his nanners, the first reaction is to use it against him, but throwing it at him only saves him the trouble of taking it back from you. Diddys are very good at catching items. Assume he is better at catching than you are at throwing. This is why Toon Link is so effective against Diddy; a good toon link knows how to handle items better than a diddy. By the same right, Diddys are way better at items than Marths.

Luckily, throwing nanners AT Diddy is not the only (or best) way to use them against him. The real strength of taking a nanner away is that you have it and he doesn't. Until you give that one up or it fades, he can't pull out another one to have 2. Diddy's main advantages are 1) quick unpredictable movement that flows directly into brutal combos, and 2) stage control. If you take away one nanner and keep it, you take his stage control away completely (if you know how to stage control yourself) and you severely limit his other advantage.

This doesn't mean keep holding the nanner. You can fend him off with DB if you're in a jam, but for the most part, you want to get it out of your hands in a spot where he has to go through you to get it. Keeping it near one ledge and staying between him and it is a good idea. Just make sure that if he doesn't come looking for it, you take the opportunity to approach. If you take a nanner and wait for him to approach, a good Diddy will just popgun camp and wait for it to fade so he can pick another one. If you want to keep it from him longer, just pick it up; but it is better to take this time to approach.

Can anyone confirm if Mart has a good glide toss while tossing backwards, up or down? These would be greats options if you want to close the gap without giving him back his nanner. You should almost never try hitting him with a nanner. You only benefit slightly from this, while he gains an enormous advantage if it's within his pickup range. Your best option for hitting him is to z-drop. A great approach if he likes to roll behind you is to SH and z-drop as soon as possible while doing a normal SH fair approach. Do not use this often, or he will catch on and OoS fair you or something rather than avoiding you. With the right spacing, this will land you a tipper fsmash. Again, only really use this to punish rolling away from your fair approach. Remember, nanners are much more useful to diddy than they are to you. The natural instinct when you're getting nanner comboed is to take that and use it against him, but YOU CAN'T!!!

 

[Anaky]

Imo the best option against Diddy is to just wait patiently for an opening and get the ***** in the air or offstage, ofc its pretty easy for him to react to all our attacks with glidetosses and lead it to nana combos. I kinda treat this matchup the same way as the Snake mu, once hes offstage keep him there as long as possible with fair and bair.

Now if were on a Neutral stage, were gonna get nana locked and take like 30%? Which we cant do anything about, i usually just try to steal one of Diddys nanas if hes got 2 out and either throw it offstage and go on the offense straight away, or just use it against him, althought that can be abit risky if he sheilds it, then uses it for himself and nana combos us all the way accross FD.

I cant really explain this Matchup REALLY well, i just do it and get on with it, isnt a bad/good matchup for Marth, but imo i think its 50/50 simply because Diddy can react to so much we do, without the glidetoss it wouldnt be as much, and besides havent US Marths been losing to Diddys Regular?

 

[Burnt Grape Juice]

I hate bananas >.<

 

[Pierce7d]

Diddy might beat Marth . . . maybe.

I've still consistently been beating Diddy but considering the technical precision Marth needs to compete in this MU makes me wonder.

 

[Blacknight99923]

theres no reason you can't give 2 different match ups

1 at lower level play
1 at higher level play

if the definition is if the 2 players are competent enough to play it at the highest possible level then thats the match up ratio that should be used
(I talked to pierce about this on his BBR weekly chats) I think marths should use Jump canceled item throws to substitute for marths foward glide toss.

I also think learning how to ZAC would also benefit marth greatly because he could zdrop fast fall fair and catch the banana again after the fair.

I personally will be looking into using jump cancels more against diddy along with other things I mentioned. I feel like the way marths play now the match up is slight advantage to diddy HOWEVER I don't think it SHOULD be in diddy's favor and we need to step it up.