Match-Up Discussion #21! Pikachu

[Steel]

Pikachu​

​

Go ^_^

 

[Steel]

Jab his jolts, smash DI up on the dsmash. add more later >_>

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Counter/Airdodge while above him/her/it.

 

[hippiedude92]

Dont fall for QAC mindgames. It's nothing special. Spacing/zoning ground/air is where ****** is (duh). You can still attack him out of his skull bash. Airdodge even when your offstage, they can use thunder as a edgeguard tool

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Wait Pikachu is an enemy? NOWAI O:
He never hits~!


Anyway, there isn't anything really special in this matchup.
DIing out his attacks properly already give him trouble for kill, while he lacks range against Marth.

 

[VietGeek]

Control the middle of the stage, never give him up, never let him down.

Camp and zone, be patient. Learn how to SDI his attacks.

Resist the temptation to pawnch your opponent if he decides to taunt: "Pika, pika!"

^_^

 

[ZHMT]

Im so tired right now lol. Anyways, like Vietgeek said, camp and zone.

Pikachu will likely spam thunderjolts until you approach, then dsmash or quick attack out of danger. All you need to do is stay at a constant 'fsmash tipper' range and its your game. Keep the pressure on Pika and theres nothing he can really do..

To edgeguard I will attempt a falling fair and grab the ledge. If I see that he will make it to the stage, I will rise and up smash which ko's fairly early due to Pika's weight.

Up b out of shield tends to work well in this Match because Pikachu has many multi hit moves, bair and fair to name a few.

 

[feardragon64]

On a side note for those who just didn't seem to get it....
Air dodge>thunder

Why are you getting hit by it...?

Other than that, qac'ing is annoying but nothing marth can't handle. It's like everyone said. Space and pressure.

10pikas

 

[_Kadaj_]

Fanning his thunder bolts at close proximty will force an approach

 

[grandmaster192]

What's the point in jabbing his projectile instead of power shielding it? You can just wal right through it with your shield... Is there any reason to jab them? Seem like more work to me and it's way harder.

 

[Steel]

Timing a jab is easier than timing a power shield >_>

 

[_Kadaj_]

Steel's right and on top of that someone can easily bait you for a free grab when your thinking your about to powershield a projectile that never came out

At least if you fan them they won't run in because they don't want to get him

 

[feardragon64]

Timing a jab is easier than timing a power shield >_>

Also, jabbing means you have a hitbox out that is longer than their dash attack's hitbox so it'd be stupid for them to dash attack you since you can just throw out another jab.

 

[Pierce7d]

What's the point in jabbing his projectile instead of power shielding it? You can just wal right through it with your shield... Is there any reason to jab them? Seem like more work to me and it's way harder.

HE IS RIGHT. Anyone who says otherwise is too lazy to try it. Powershielding is TOO EASY in this game. Actually, by this level of play, you should all be able to PS Falco's grounded laser spam, if you'd just practice. And following up a grab after a jab to block a projectile is easier since there is MORE lag after that than a powershield. If you just threw a projectile, and I'm powershielding, I'm going to see you approach. If you're still throwing projectiles in a range which will result in you being able to rush me unexpectedly, I'm going to outspace you and hit you first, probably with a dtilt. Powershielding is in every way better. LEARN IT YOU LAZY FOOLS! LEARN!

I'll talk about Pikachu later. He's easy. DI up outta Dsmash.

 

[bludhoundz]

HE IS RIGHT. Anyone who says otherwise is too lazy to try it. Powershielding is TOO EASY in this game. Actually, by this level of play, you should all be able to PS Falco's grounded laser spam, if you'd just practice. And following up a grab after a jab to block a projectile is easier since there is MORE lag after that than a powershield. If you just threw a projectile, and I'm powershielding, I'm going to see you approach. If you're still throwing projectiles in a range which will result in you being able to rush me unexpectedly, I'm going to outspace you and hit you first, probably with a dtilt. Powershielding is in every way better. LEARN IT YOU LAZY FOOLS! LEARN!

While the jab has more lag than a powershield, it also has a defensive hitbox, which means until the hitbox is in, your opponent cannot rush in and hit you. With a powershield, although there is no lag, there is no hitbox stopping them from rushing in to get a grab or something.

Not to say powershielding is pointless or unsafe, but it's simply another alternative to the jab. PS isn't necessarily the better option every time.

 

[Pierce7d]

While the jab has more lag than a powershield, it also has a defensive hitbox, which means until the hitbox is in, your opponent cannot rush in and hit you. With a powershield, although there is no lag, there is no hitbox stopping them from rushing in to get a grab or something.

Not to say powershielding is pointless or unsafe, but it's simply another alternative to the jab. PS isn't necessarily the better option every time.

. . . . that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. If you jab a thunder jolt, it clashes, and there is no chance of the jab hitting your opponent whatsoever. It makes it EASIER for your opponent to get a free jab.

If perfect shield a thunder jolt, then you should have plenty of time to react, if you see your opponent dashing toward you, then you know something is coming, and a TWO FRAME PS isn't going to leave you open unless you suck. No one in the game has a projectile that they travel faster than, even with glide-tossing.

Seriously, you guys use this jab fanning foolishness in too many match-up threads. Please don't let me see this again. It's not an advantage, as every character in the whole game can deal with like projectiles just by pressing R with good timing.

For Marth, who does not have absorption, or a reflector, or a projectile, or bucket, PSing projectiles is ALWAYS your best option, as it takes the least time, and leaves you win no lag (two frames of inactivity in which your shield is up does not leave you vulnerable to a grab, as you can STILL dodge or jump from shield. You can't do ANYTHING out of a jab block, though that doesn't leave you open, it leaves you MORE open than PS.

So seriously, stop bringing this up against these types of projectiles.

 

[Daedatheus]

PS --> Jab works too if you still want to jab fan

 

[3xSwords]

Watch out for grab followups. I don't think Pika can CG Marth b/c of DS, but f-throw>run>u-smash works as a nice two hitter at low %'s. His u-throw sets you up for juggling. Pika can juggle **** you if he positions himself correctly, so that air dodging is your only option. This is mainly due to his u-air which has no post lag and is quick so he can throw out that second uair if you dodge the first and hit.

He is quick but spacing ***** him, and on a side not if a pika ever tries to charge a skull bash to return to the stage, just fall with him and DS his *** of the screen. All for now

 

[bludhoundz]

. . . . that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. If you jab a thunder jolt, it clashes, and there is no chance of the jab hitting your opponent whatsoever. It makes it EASIER for your opponent to get a free jab.

If perfect shield a thunder jolt, then you should have plenty of time to react, if you see your opponent dashing toward you, then you know something is coming, and a TWO FRAME PS isn't going to leave you open unless you suck. No one in the game has a projectile that they travel faster than, even with glide-tossing.

Seriously, you guys use this jab fanning foolishness in too many match-up threads. Please don't let me see this again. It's not an advantage, as every character in the whole game can deal with like projectiles just by pressing R with good timing.

Wow. You got mad pretty fast about this. Calm down man, nobody's waging war on your thoughts or ideas.

If the jab clashes, there is very little lag afterwards. It's not like it's dangerous or anything.

Also PSing is shorter range, so your opponent has more time to rush in when you're walking forward about to PS. Jabbing kills the attack before it even gets to your shield - thus there will be more distance between you and the opponent than if you PS. Seriously, you're not going to get punished for EITHER of them, unless you make a mistake.

Honestly I think it is the better option but it's not like jab is so much worse that we should never use it.

PS is fairly easy to do consistently, but not everyone can do it. For those who can't, they have jab in this matchup. For those who can, they have a choice, they can jab or PS. Part of this game is having multiple options to deal with things so you don't become predictable. Having options = good.

 

[Pierce7d]

Wow. You got mad pretty fast about this. Calm down man, nobody's waging war on your thoughts or ideas.

If the jab clashes, there is very little lag afterwards. It's not like it's dangerous or anything.

Also PSing is shorter range, so your opponent has more time to rush in when you're walking forward about to PS. Jabbing kills the attack before it even gets to your shield - thus there will be more distance between you and the opponent than if you PS. Seriously, you're not going to get punished for EITHER of them, unless you make a mistake.

Honestly I think it is the better option but it's not like jab is so much worse that we should never use it.

PS is fairly easy to do consistently, but not everyone can do it. For those who can't, they have jab in this matchup. For those who can, they have a choice, they can jab or PS. Part of this game is having multiple options to deal with things so you don't become predictable. Having options = good.

You're right. I did. Sorry, got into an argument with a noob before, and I've been meaning to make this point for a while. Another difference between jab and perfect shield is that you can continue walking forward while PSing. Jab slows you down a lot more.

 

[Steel]

So yeah you can pretty much just outspace pika and win. The sweetspot of his fsmash is in the middle (behind the ball), and as well know ours is at the tip. pika can juggle very well though, be aware of that.

65:35? worse?

 

[Pierce7d]

Pika is quick, and has a good projectile, and can also bounce around and dodge well till he gets an opening. Also, Pika has okay tilts, but seriously, nothing super special. I'd personally go with 70-30 Marth, because Pika is so light, and really doesn't have great finishers. Also, pika FAILS in the air vs Marth, having no autocancelling aerials and no range at all in the air.

 

[Daedatheus]

Jab his jolts, smash DI up on the dsmash. add more later >_>

Is this consistently effective? I've been experimenting with different directions using slide DI.

 

[Remzi]

I'd put this one at 65:35. In the air marth is so far superior to pika, but pika has an annoying projectile, some nice smashes, and great recovery among other things. IDK though, i dont have too much experience with this matchup.

 

[-Nana-]

. . . . that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. If you jab a thunder jolt, it clashes, and there is no chance of the jab hitting your opponent whatsoever. It makes it EASIER for your opponent to get a free jab.

If perfect shield a thunder jolt, then you should have plenty of time to react, if you see your opponent dashing toward you, then you know something is coming, and a TWO FRAME PS isn't going to leave you open unless you suck. No one in the game has a projectile that they travel faster than, even with glide-tossing.

Seriously, you guys use this jab fanning foolishness in too many match-up threads. Please don't let me see this again. It's not an advantage, as every character in the whole game can deal with like projectiles just by pressing R with good timing.

For Marth, who does not have absorption, or a reflector, or a projectile, or bucket, PSing projectiles is ALWAYS your best option, as it takes the least time, and leaves you win no lag (two frames of inactivity in which your shield is up does not leave you vulnerable to a grab, as you can STILL dodge or jump from shield. You can't do ANYTHING out of a jab block, though that doesn't leave you open, it leaves you MORE open than PS.

So seriously, stop bringing this up against these types of projectiles.

Pikachu's projectile is in very quick succession and since, like you said, it clashes and CANCELS OUT you can do whatever you want after the animation of your swing ends. How can you say powershielding is a safer option? It's not hard to do and is safe as long as you have the timing down but jabbing also allows you to move in toward your opponent quick and allows a faster and smoother attack against Pika. The jab against Pika's B causes no lag animation. You can do whatever right out of it whereas shielding does not allow a lagless hit for each attack.

If the situation is a spammy Pikachu I would say a good reaction would be jabbing with a slow approach > fair or whatever you'de like. It's also pretty simple to just jump lol and utilize platforms.

Marth can always outspace Pikachu and DI consistently out of dsmash. Pikachu has almost all laggy attacks as well making him easily punishable. His air game is far superior to Pika's and pikachu's recovery is not great. The over B is slow and very easy to predict which can lead to an nair for a kill, fair out, or dair spike. His upb doesn't hit hard so you don't have to worry about getting spiked against the stage while ledgehogging which can force pika to over shoot onto the stage that puts you at the advantage. Relatively one sided matchup IMO I'd probably give it 60:40.

 

[Steel]

Pikachu's projectile is in very quick succession and since, like you said, it clashes and CANCELS OUT you can do whatever you want after the animation of your swing ends. How can you say powershielding is a safer option? It's not hard to do and is safe as long as you have the timing down but jabbing also allows you to move in toward your opponent quick and allows a faster and smoother attack against Pika. The jab against Pika's B causes no lag animation. You can do whatever right out of it whereas shielding does not allow a lagless hit for each attack.

If the situation is a spammy Pikachu I would say a good reaction would be jabbing with a slow approach > fair or whatever you'de like. It's also pretty simple to just jump lol and utilize platforms.

Marth can always outspace Pikachu and DI consistently out of dsmash. Pikachu has almost all laggy attacks as well making him easily punishable. His air game is far superior to Pika's and pikachu's recovery is not great. The over B is slow and very easy to predict which can lead to an nair for a kill, fair out, or dair spike. His upb doesn't hit hard so you don't have to worry about getting spiked against the stage while ledgehogging which can force pika to over shoot onto the stage that puts you at the advantage. Relatively one sided matchup IMO I'd probably give it 60:40.

How the hell is a one sided match up 60:40?

We're moving on.

 

[_Kadaj_]

60:40 is good steel. Plus you can't exactly gimp his recovery. Regardless of his lightweight

 

[-Nana-]

First of all I said relatively and it's obviously not clear cut but no match is. 60:40 is good and it's a huge advantage and if the players are the same skill level that is a somewhat one sided fight.

 

[Steel]

i put it at 60:40, i just wanted to know what he meant.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Dude 60:40 is a slight disadvantage like falco or game and watch

70:30 is a huge disadvatage

Bottom line marth has a slight advantage due to weight, range, priority, defense and that's not even considering the fact that marth has a couple of gimp combos on pikachu.

Unless you can prove why the match-up should be closer than 60:40 than there's no reason to change it

 

[Punishment Divine]

So the exact way to DI out of his Dsmash is to just mash up on the c and d sticks?

Oh I would also like to note that if you happen to shield his dsmash, spotdodge for the last 2 or so twirls. If you don't it'll probably shieldstab.

I would also like to note that if he tries to recover with >B, I usually Counter if he's coming for me, or drop down counter if it's obvious he's going for the ledge. I understand you could DS him out of it, but that seems a bit flashy to me and Counter has worked just fine so far.

 

[Steel]

I believe so, yes.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Its only the d- stick bro

You don't need to use c-stick

 

[Punishment Divine]

Its only the d- stick bro

You don't need to use c-stick

Thanks, this makes my life so much easier. There's a lot of spammy Pikachus around and although I beat them consistently I've been meaning to learn how to get out of that ****ed move for a while XD

 

[Pierce7d]

Just hold up as soon as you get hit, and you'll only take like 5%, lol. You don't even have to tap DI. Just be quick.

Also, I still think this is 65-35. We'll talk about this more tomorrow.

 

[-Nana-]

Regardless, Marth has the clear advantage. I'm not going to argue over ratios.

If you are caught in his dsmash it works best to tap on the control stick up angled toward a corner if you are on the side of pikachu.

 

[Pierce7d]

If you shield Pika's Dsmash, please go turn in the deposit slip and pick up your free Dolphin Slash outta shield.

 

[_Kadaj_]

If you shield Pika's Dsmash, please go turn in the deposit slip and pick up your free Dolphin Slash outta shield.

lol exactly what i was thinking

 

[Emblem Lord]

My original analysis of the match still applies.

Pikachu - A straight forward match. Pikachu has some good tools honestly, but you have a sword. You can jab Thunder Jolts all day. QAC is annoying, but not deadly since tit only goes into aerials, and Pika's aerials are outranged and outprioritized by you. D-smash has tons of priority, but your spacing game means you won't be getting hit by it much. If you get hit by it just repeatedly Smash DI up and you can get out fairly easily. If you don't Smash DI out in time DI to the left or the right, so Pika can't hit you with Thunder after the D-smash. Your F-smash is equal to his in range, but his sweetspot is in the middle of the thunder shock, while yours is at the tip of the blade so Marth wins out here. His recovery is good, while his edgeguarding is decnt, but not spectacular, so generally the both of you won't be edgeguarding each other too effectively, although you can edgehug him easily when you know he has to go for the ledge. If he is edgeguarding he will usually do a jumping Thunder Jolt that you will have to contend with. Just fair it if you can or airdodge if you aren't too low. If you are edgeguarding him and he just used skull bash then you can run out and hit him if you space well or counter it.

QAC can go into specials too of course.

Check this link to see the Pikachu boards analysis of the match-up.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180440

Also check this one to see their actual discussion.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174335&page=3

 

[_Kadaj_]

Its good to see the other boards opinion on the matter

*goes to read*