Ice Climbers
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Match-Up Discussion #16! Ice Climbers
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
Go ^_^
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
That was fast... And can someone please test to see if Marth has a grab release infinite on Popo after Nana is dead? I think he might.
This match relies on spacing, if you don't have it.. you will fail in this match.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Ehh....I hate Ice Climbers...
I personally think Ice Climbers are one of the most annoying matchups for Marth. No joke.
The main thing with Ice Climbers are their chaingrabs and powerful ground attacks. You need to consistently space with fairs and dtilts. When I play Ice Climbers, I play as if Im playing Metaknight, Im constantly on the defense. Dancing blade is one move I tend to stay away from, simply because if they shield it, they can grab you after the last hit of the db.
Ice Climbers have a down smash that can do around 40% if sweetspotted.
The Ice Climbers have very poor grab range, so constantly stay at tipper range, but not far enough where they can camp with ice blocks.
Also their down b can lead into a grab, so try to always stay on the move and never camp with your shield.
For edgeguarding you can simply keep the ice climbers separated far enough with fairs and down they go.
I personally think Ice Climbers are one of the most annoying matchups for Marth. No joke.
The main thing with Ice Climbers are their chaingrabs and powerful ground attacks. You need to consistently space with fairs and dtilts. When I play Ice Climbers, I play as if Im playing Metaknight, Im constantly on the defense. Dancing blade is one move I tend to stay away from, simply because if they shield it, they can grab you after the last hit of the db.
Ice Climbers have a down smash that can do around 40% if sweetspotted.
The Ice Climbers have very poor grab range, so constantly stay at tipper range, but not far enough where they can camp with ice blocks.
Also their down b can lead into a grab, so try to always stay on the move and never camp with your shield.
For edgeguarding you can simply keep the ice climbers separated far enough with fairs and down they go.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Can someone test the grab release plz?
ZHMT
Smash Lord
Ill test it, which one is popo? lol
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Popo is primary one and i want see if Marth can infinite him after the secondary dies.
ZHMT
Smash Lord
He is so close to being infinited...but not good enough. You can probably get like 2 grabs in, if they arent expecting it. But they can definitely di out because if you hold back away from the grab, popo will slide out of Marths reach and is able to jab.
Its kind of like Marth vs Lucario, its not a infinite but you can use it sometimes.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Thanks and darn i thought I wss on to something but w/eva
feardragon64
Smash Champion
lol, two in one day? =b
Off topic: grats on 1k posts ike =]
On topic: Obviously, separating them is your first priority. Attacks with knockback are preferred since if nana is far enough, she won't attacked desynched. If you get nana off the stage, still be careful since if popo is close enough, he can up+b and nana will teleport to him....and then you're off the edge and have to worry about getting back on.
Another obvious note....don't get grabbed. But that goes without saying in this match up.
On a side note, be careful when using dancing blades to stop a ground charge. If you're not properly spaced, you can catch one and miss the other, leaving you open as you try and stop it. It's only happened to me a few times, but still something to note.
Now, is it better to jab, ftilt, or dtilt desynch'd ice blocks? And what is all of your favorite approaches to IC? desynch'd ice blocks are annoying if you stick to the ground on longer stages like Final D or smashville and I hate doing aerial approaches on the lesser platformed stages since they're short and have fairly decent range to intercept you. (that and the fear of shield grabs...)
Off topic: grats on 1k posts ike =]
On topic: Obviously, separating them is your first priority. Attacks with knockback are preferred since if nana is far enough, she won't attacked desynched. If you get nana off the stage, still be careful since if popo is close enough, he can up+b and nana will teleport to him....and then you're off the edge and have to worry about getting back on.
Another obvious note....don't get grabbed. But that goes without saying in this match up.
On a side note, be careful when using dancing blades to stop a ground charge. If you're not properly spaced, you can catch one and miss the other, leaving you open as you try and stop it. It's only happened to me a few times, but still something to note.
Now, is it better to jab, ftilt, or dtilt desynch'd ice blocks? And what is all of your favorite approaches to IC? desynch'd ice blocks are annoying if you stick to the ground on longer stages like Final D or smashville and I hate doing aerial approaches on the lesser platformed stages since they're short and have fairly decent range to intercept you. (that and the fear of shield grabs...)
ZHMT
Smash Lord
I use a jab on the ice block, I not to shield because the opponent will likely see that as an opening and jump right in to grab. The only time I will do that on purpose is when a dolphin slash will ko.
I jump over the ice blocks as well and when im at tipper range, I begin poking away.
I jump over the ice blocks as well and when im at tipper range, I begin poking away.
∫unk
Smash Master
Isn't this true for every matchup.
Wait... I see what you did there. Nice +1/wannabe contribution.
Most particularly in this one.
Wait... I see what you did there. Nice +1/wannabe contribution.
∫unk
Smash Master
Oh yeah?
Don't get grabbed. They do some weird thing where you end up dead. The best you can do is shout in their ear or grab their controller and hope they mess up. Any words suggesting homosexuality or promiscuity work well here.
There's my contribution.
Seriously though against tourney goers spacing is super duper important, regardless of their characters. It would be an odd in the matchup if spacing WASN'T that important (maybe someone like falcon where you'll win anyway). I'm not sure you can judge one more important than the other because for most matchups that's all it comes down to.
Don't get grabbed. They do some weird thing where you end up dead. The best you can do is shout in their ear or grab their controller and hope they mess up. Any words suggesting homosexuality or promiscuity work well here.
There's my contribution.
Seriously though against tourney goers spacing is super duper important, regardless of their characters. It would be an odd in the matchup if spacing WASN'T that important (maybe someone like falcon where you'll win anyway). I'm not sure you can judge one more important than the other because for most matchups that's all it comes down to.
3xSwords
Smash Lord
I've come to realize besides grab rapping and setups leading to grab, I don't know anything else about IC's. >_>
That being said. Try to capitalize on the times when you can get out of their chaingrab. For example, d-throw>fair>regrab. You can avoid by SDI'ing fair, away to screw up regrab. At mid %'s d-throw > fair > ice block > regrab. You can avoid this by teching fair, but if you don't, you get screwed. Other than those moments you pretty much are screwed unless they mess up.
That being said. Try to capitalize on the times when you can get out of their chaingrab. For example, d-throw>fair>regrab. You can avoid by SDI'ing fair, away to screw up regrab. At mid %'s d-throw > fair > ice block > regrab. You can avoid this by teching fair, but if you don't, you get screwed. Other than those moments you pretty much are screwed unless they mess up.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
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Spend lots of time throwing out zoning tools, NEVER approach from the air (unless you're weaving double fairs or something of the sort.)
Outside of their death grab, IC Fail to Marth. They can hit for remarkable damage, but really lose in the range department, and even the speed department. Plus Nana is uber easy pickings for Marth, making this a 70-30 match-up for Marth.
Outside of their death grab, IC Fail to Marth. They can hit for remarkable damage, but really lose in the range department, and even the speed department. Plus Nana is uber easy pickings for Marth, making this a 70-30 match-up for Marth.
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
Retreating ff nair works pretty well to defend against there approach.
IC's do not have an advantage against Marth.
Unlike other characters, Marth can break out of (I believe) the down throw chain at 50%.
If you're about to get spiked, if Marth is above 60% he can DI away after the throw and most likely avoid the spike hit. If you're playing on Yoshi's Island you can even DI towards the stage and tech it if you're manly.
ICs mostly fail at being able to approach Marth.
They have nothing that out ranges you.
Spacing them is reasonably easy. Dtilts and ftilt if they jump. Avoid them getting behind you if they roll.
Do NOT throw out moves like fsmash or dsmash EVER. That's pretty much the biggest rule I can consider here.
The whole goal is to seperate them, and as you should know they are easily to seperate when the opponent is attempting to desync (dashing) as you'll 90% of the time be able to hit the alternate IC (CPU one) even if the human controlled one shields. Easy to seperate and then keep swatting them.
The ratio? Im not certain... I feel due to the lack of their approaches (I could be naive here) it's almost **** for Marth against them...
Where's Hylian?
Unlike other characters, Marth can break out of (I believe) the down throw chain at 50%.
If you're about to get spiked, if Marth is above 60% he can DI away after the throw and most likely avoid the spike hit. If you're playing on Yoshi's Island you can even DI towards the stage and tech it if you're manly.
ICs mostly fail at being able to approach Marth.
They have nothing that out ranges you.
Spacing them is reasonably easy. Dtilts and ftilt if they jump. Avoid them getting behind you if they roll.
Do NOT throw out moves like fsmash or dsmash EVER. That's pretty much the biggest rule I can consider here.
The whole goal is to seperate them, and as you should know they are easily to seperate when the opponent is attempting to desync (dashing) as you'll 90% of the time be able to hit the alternate IC (CPU one) even if the human controlled one shields. Easy to seperate and then keep swatting them.
The ratio? Im not certain... I feel due to the lack of their approaches (I could be naive here) it's almost **** for Marth against them...
Where's Hylian?
Hype
Smash Lord
just a little side note, if you manage to beak thier shield don't start fully charging a shield breaker. nana's shield probebly isn't broken.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Or you could Charge it anyway and just release it before Nana gets close enough to hit you.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
^^ Or you could just tipper forward smash to separate them if nana comes at you. Nana wouldn't get hit by the tip so popo would be out and off the stage by himself =](assuming higher damage percents). Besides, the damage would rack onto popo from the tip anyways.
Copy pasted a post by hylian from MBR:
65-35 is a little extreme. I would say it's either 60-40 or 55-45 in Marth's favor.
Marth does do really well against climbers, but you have to remember that well...most people don't know how to play IC's. Ask Roy_R what he thinks of the match. He is the only marth player that has ever beaten my climbers lol. I played Inui in tournament and lost with G&W but almost 3 stocked his marth with IC's >_>.
IC's defensive game is great against Marth. They should play defensivly the entire match trying to get a grab and making sure marth doesn't gimp nana. They can do this with a combination of desynched blizzards, ice blocks, and smash attacks. One of my favorite things to do to marth is do a pivot desynch and have nana charge fsmash while I walk forward. Since marth doesn't have a projectile he is forced to retreat, or react to two actions at once. If he attacks and hits only popo, he usually gets hit by a fully charged fsmash from nana. Not to mention I can just shield the attack and nana will attack then. I can also DD during this and nana with fsmash whatever direction popo is facing when it's released so it can be pretty confusing. Another thing I can do is run up and release it then grab. If they shield, they get grabbed. If they dont, they get hit. If they want to roll away they have to do so immediatly, but it's smarter to just retreat.
Marth can really make use of platforms though and has a huge advantage stage-wise. Ban FD and CP stages like norfair or Rainbow Cruise. If marth keeps to the platforms and keeps the climbers seperated then he can win pretty easily. I on average grab roy about 2 times a game when we play >_>. So yeah, 60-40 for Marth sounds good.
65-35 is a little extreme. I would say it's either 60-40 or 55-45 in Marth's favor.
Marth does do really well against climbers, but you have to remember that well...most people don't know how to play IC's. Ask Roy_R what he thinks of the match. He is the only marth player that has ever beaten my climbers lol. I played Inui in tournament and lost with G&W but almost 3 stocked his marth with IC's >_>.
IC's defensive game is great against Marth. They should play defensivly the entire match trying to get a grab and making sure marth doesn't gimp nana. They can do this with a combination of desynched blizzards, ice blocks, and smash attacks. One of my favorite things to do to marth is do a pivot desynch and have nana charge fsmash while I walk forward. Since marth doesn't have a projectile he is forced to retreat, or react to two actions at once. If he attacks and hits only popo, he usually gets hit by a fully charged fsmash from nana. Not to mention I can just shield the attack and nana will attack then. I can also DD during this and nana with fsmash whatever direction popo is facing when it's released so it can be pretty confusing. Another thing I can do is run up and release it then grab. If they shield, they get grabbed. If they dont, they get hit. If they want to roll away they have to do so immediatly, but it's smarter to just retreat.
Marth can really make use of platforms though and has a huge advantage stage-wise. Ban FD and CP stages like norfair or Rainbow Cruise. If marth keeps to the platforms and keeps the climbers seperated then he can win pretty easily. I on average grab roy about 2 times a game when we play >_>. So yeah, 60-40 for Marth sounds good.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Hylian's gay. The match was on FD, the Ice Climbers' best stage, and I have absolutely no experience in the match-up while Roy_R has a ton of experience. What an unfair comparison.
55/45 Marth makes sense, except on FD, where I'd reverse that.
55/45 Marth makes sense, except on FD, where I'd reverse that.
Why did you feel the need to come in here and protect yourself against someone who wasn't even attacking you? He was using you as an example of what happens when someone doesn't have the proper match-up experience compared to someone who does. You just reinforced his point.
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
So, its like this? (i dont play good IC so i dont know):
IC: good defense, projectiles, instant death chain grab, ridiculous d-smash
Marth: longer range, better approach options, can **** IC's recovery (separate the twins), DS OoS ftw
P.S. why didnt u tell me you used IC's? i need experience against them and it makes for a much more interesting battle than a FE ditto.
IC: good defense, projectiles, instant death chain grab, ridiculous d-smash
Marth: longer range, better approach options, can **** IC's recovery (separate the twins), DS OoS ftw
P.S. why didnt u tell me you used IC's? i need experience against them and it makes for a much more interesting battle than a FE ditto.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
While it's good to know the CP stages, presumably if you get a random choice for final d the first time(assume you loose), you CP(assume you win), and then by some random chance you get smashville(closest thing to Final D imo). I think it's important to discuss tactics against IC in the territory they're most comfortable in.
For me, it works great usually to seperate IC's by utilizing the tip vs untipped knockback, though getting in close enough without getting grabbed is a problem.
What do you guys think about juggling IC's? There's an obvious difficulty in getting both, but is it worth trying to juggle the main one? (or will they just side - b away from you? -.-)
For me, it works great usually to seperate IC's by utilizing the tip vs untipped knockback, though getting in close enough without getting grabbed is a problem.
What do you guys think about juggling IC's? There's an obvious difficulty in getting both, but is it worth trying to juggle the main one? (or will they just side - b away from you? -.-)
I guess people choose to ignore what I've already said in this thread.
If people are naive or ignorant about what the ICs ARE AND HOW THEY DO WHAT THEY DO... well ugh.
If you know how they desync you know how to punish them. I already said that you punish the dash to desync thing they do.
And the main idea is to never go for the MAIN ONE, you always try to go for the stupid CPU one. The cpu one is insanely easy to juggle and swat off the stage; then in the confusion you stop the main one from going out there to save them (with an up b for example).
If people are naive or ignorant about what the ICs ARE AND HOW THEY DO WHAT THEY DO... well ugh.
If you know how they desync you know how to punish them. I already said that you punish the dash to desync thing they do.
And the main idea is to never go for the MAIN ONE, you always try to go for the stupid CPU one. The cpu one is insanely easy to juggle and swat off the stage; then in the confusion you stop the main one from going out there to save them (with an up b for example).
Chill out lol. Read the post below yours. My post wasn't offensive at all so I don't understand why you got upset? I was using you as an example of a good marth player who lost badly due to match-up inexperience.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Haha shaya. I agree with most of your analysis, except that IC have a multitude of options when approaching marth(as hylian said he has his ways, you could even consider that a "response" to your post =b).
Also, the issue of punishing the desynch becomes a bit more difficult when you're a bit further away. And presumably, desynching will be a key part of the process when they are deciding an approach plan. Since Marth is limited in options, as Hylian pointed out, when IC's approach with a desynch, Marth presumably has to stop the desynch. Presumably, this implies an approach of some sort.
So the big question that I feel hasn't been answered is....
How to approach? I feel while Marth may have a few options here, they are very few and this leads to predictability(and predictability leads to being easily countered).
Also, the issue of punishing the desynch becomes a bit more difficult when you're a bit further away. And presumably, desynching will be a key part of the process when they are deciding an approach plan. Since Marth is limited in options, as Hylian pointed out, when IC's approach with a desynch, Marth presumably has to stop the desynch. Presumably, this implies an approach of some sort.
So the big question that I feel hasn't been answered is....
How to approach? I feel while Marth may have a few options here, they are very few and this leads to predictability(and predictability leads to being easily countered).
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
Um, cant the ice blocks be d-tilted (both of them). If this works then u could d-tilt halfway to the IC's then all you need to do is hop into optimal sword range.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
The problem becomes when you get IC's that use the blocks as a distraction and follow behind to attack between the dtilts(not to mention can you imagine how it would look to have a bunch of marth's trying to get movement toward ic in matches by dtilting repeatedly?
). But basically the situation is this:1) IC's send ice blocks at marth(assume he's already approached a bit and is still out of range but close enough to almost be in range.) Marth has some options:
-SHAD the blocks. Unfortunatly, this will probably lead Marth to get hit by another set of blocks that come directly after.
-Jump over the blocks and toward IC with a fair. This is risky since if it's incorrectly spaced, the fair will get shielded and marth will be grabbed. If it is properly spaced, IC's still have ftilt.
-Jump over the blocks in place. This gets you nowhere.
-Attack the blocks with jab, ftilt, or dtilt(probably dtilt). If you do this and attempt to move foward, then IC's have some options:
2) Marth dtilts and advances with dtilts. IC's now have time to desynch as marth sluggishly advances and can launch desycnhed ice blocks which(I think) should hit marth between dtilts. If not, they have the option of launching desynched blocks(so marth will have to do two dtilts to deflect both of them), and follow behind them with an aerial or ftilt. If marth is hit by the blocks, it amounts to the miniscule amount of hitstun in brawl that exists and leaves him vulnerable. If Marth dtilts and the IC's approached from the air, he gets hit by the aerial. Though I suppose this situation could be avoided with multiple jabs or ftilt, it's much harder to actually make advancements like that.
But I have a gut feeling I'm not doing a very good analysis. =\ MBR can probably do a better job and take apart my argument....if they ever respond to what I say >>
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
Thx, that helped a little. I was thinking of SH (or full hop) Shieldbreaker or SHdancing blade and a way to use these to close the gap between marth and the ICs. Im sure that these approaches can be punished but if Shieldbreaker can eliminate an ice block or two then it may help. SHDB is just a way to airstall and provide u opportunity to space ur fair correctly. I'm just throwing out ideas now to give marth an alternative approach to SHfair.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
Ew =[
But hmm....SH fair(advancing forward), fair(retreating)? I.E. SH Double Fair but moving in opposite directions?
hmm.....
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Calm the f*ck down b*tch.
Nobody gives two flying f*cks about "slandering" your precious reputation as a player.
Nobody gives two flying f*cks about "slandering" your precious reputation as a player.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
You're late, scrub. 
mikeHAZE
Smash Legend
yeah, a lot of this matchup is just knowing the matchup and limitations in general.
just try to find openings i guess and take advantage if you get them separated, every one of your hits counts in this matchup so MAKE SURE YOU DONT MISPACE ANYTHING.
if they do that annoying blizzard ****, just use counter.
just try to find openings i guess and take advantage if you get them separated, every one of your hits counts in this matchup so MAKE SURE YOU DONT MISPACE ANYTHING.
if they do that annoying blizzard ****, just use counter.
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
I was thinking about all the 0%->death "combos" that exist in brawl and i was trying to think of a way to avoid them. What came to mind was (against characters with projectiles that they like camping with or using in general) taking a few hits on purpose to get urself up to a percent where u no longer can be comboed. Shoot i will take a 20% handicap if it means it get to keep myself from losing an easy stock. But the problem with this is that u dont WANT to take ANY damage if at all possible. Since ice climbers will use the ice blocks against u and they are just annoyances to ur approach, i figure u can take a few hits to save urself some serious hurt (and u get closer to the ice climbers too which is a bonus, provided u superman thru the projectiles).
feardragon64
Smash Champion
If you're going to take that approach, don't think of it as a 20% handicap. If you're going to get 20%, that's fine, just do at least 20% to them as well.
OmegaXF
Smash Ace
Melee Marth works wonders here.
Lots of movement and lots of aerials.
Lotion
Lots of movement and lots of aerials.
Lotion