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Masashi's Pit is off the chain (Ketubato vids)

choknater

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choknater

Admiral Pit

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I only looked at the first vid with the Chaingrab-happy D3, and
What!? No ARROW LOOPING!?
Im sorry but a Pit without arrow looping isnt... um special.
To me, a Pit without Adv. Tech (like arrow looping or Wingdashing) I consider them "Boring" Pits, but I got that from some1, forgot who it was. At least he beat the grab-happy penguin...
 

Ripple

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I like it, its pure and simple. arrows lots>fairs> smash or bair.

does anyone know who aniki plays or if he does at all? how old are the brothers anyway?
 

Rogue Pit

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I guess but the playstyle was stale run charge and shoot arrows, a anyone with a button holdable reflector could just sit there. He'd finally have to approach and fairs can be shield grabbed. Sup ripple!!!!!!! I use to be skip +)
 

PenUmbra

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I only looked at the first vid with the Chaingrab-happy D3, and
What!? No ARROW LOOPING!?
Im sorry but a Pit without arrow looping isnt... um special.
To me, a Pit without Adv. Tech (like arrow looping or Wingdashing) I consider them "Boring" Pits, but I got that from some1, forgot who it was. At least he beat the grab-happy penguin...
ATs don't make the game, right? It's solid gameplay on Masashi's behalf. It's the sort of thing I want to be able to achieve. The pit might be "boring" but smash isn't about fire works. It's sumo wrestling at it's finest and when push came to shove, he shoved hard.

Edit: With Snake, it is about the fireworks.

Japanese Pits are very rigid, not as fancy but still beast.
Co-sign. I'll get my game that smooth someday soon and surpass him or her hopefully.
 

sagemoon

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it wasnt really solid. I hate saying this, but those dededes really didnt know how to play the matchup. Sure they could downthrow but thats it. Masashi didnt have that great of arrow accuracy either. What surprized me was that he didnt get punished for all those fairs. A dedede can easily uptilt out of shield. Masashi didnt really use f-smash either.
 

cj.Shark

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the majority of meleeists havent seen any real good pits. Infact they are underplayed in the east and MW. so when they hear Omg masashi is playing pit they get overexcited. But infact they are truely ignorant. i have to agree with sagemoon Ive seen alot better Pits.
Lol at sage talking about dededes. i wonder what hed say if masashi was playing a mario
 

Jei Jei

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Masashi's Pit > everyone.
Don't judge from a few vids against D3, you're being ignorant imo.
Take it from someone who knows.
 

sagemoon

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I watched every vid. Masashi is a smart player, but isnt the best pit. Aisengobay is much better than him along with some from america as well.
 

Jei Jei

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A fellow smasher in my city vsed him when he went to Japan.
Apparently Masashi is the best there.
Also apparently Japan has the best brawl scene atm.
I'm just going by that, it annoys me when people judge by watching vids when they haven't vsed the person themselves. It could simply be mindgames we cannot see.

Forgive my previous statement, I don't keep tabs on all the Pits in the world. But I believe my friend when he says that Masashi is the best brawler. It's coming from a solid source.
 

Rogue Pit

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rathy azen plays lucario, and in all honesty masashi isnt good. With just skill, i think azen can beat masashi in a pit ditto, but apparently dittos don't mean anything. But hey i only seen the first video
 

kupo15

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agreed with sage and rogue. Im not very impressed by his Pit either. I see a whole lot of flapping and arrow spamming or just standing there. He doesn't seem very active or tries to space himself maybe due to a dislike for Brawl idk. If he is the best in JPN then JPN Pits are VERY far behind the American Pits.
 

Popertop

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Just watched the vid vs D3.

D3 was trash.
Masashi was trash.
He didn't do anything.
Kown ( a local pearland smasher ) is much better than him.
 

kown

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Just watched the vid vs D3.

D3 was trash.
Masashi was trash.
He didn't do anything.
Kown ( a local pearland smasher ) is much better than him.
hey thnxs bro. we need to get together and play some matches. im getting rusty. Houston needs to have a weekly thing during the weekdays. have u alrdy moved back?
 

sagemoon

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Its not like masashi is bad ppl.. Hes just not the "best in the world" or even close to that. No need to hate on him though.
 

Alopex

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There's one thing I want to point out:

It seems all the American Pits are knocking on Masashi's use of arrow spamming. This makes it appear to me that, in general, American Pits don't make much use of arrow spamming outside of using it for edgeguarding.

This is evident in videos I've seen that feature Kupo, Sagemoon, Skip, Kown, and Aisengobay.

Masashi, however, makes far more prolific use of arrows. However, he's not as generally skilled as the American players listed above are.

This means American players are generally better players who turn their back on the arrow spam.


Frankly, I think all you American players who shrug off the arrow spam are severely crippling your game. There is no reason why you shouldn't completely exploit your huge ranged advantage while at the time using all the skills and techniques, I've seen you all display, for when they manage to successfully approach you. Outside from "honor," that is. But honor doesn't win tournaments.

There is no need for Pit to approach anyone ever. Everyone knows that approaching is dangerous as hell is Brawl, and whoever has to approach always starts at an initial disadvantage.
Arrows are the best projectile in the game, all factors considered, and I don't think anyone can really dispute that. And the shield is the best reflector in the game, allowing redirection of opponents, protection from non-projectiles, as well as prolonged holding duration.

Even against reflective characters, you win. Start a spam and you start mindgames with your ability to change your arrow's direction mid-charge as well as mid-air. Any reflective character who plays defensively will be ready for an arrow, it doesn't become hard to take easy advantage of their ending lag on their reflective/absorbing moves with an easy approach that way.


So what I want to know is:

Why don't I see any of you competitive Pit mains use the arrow spamming to a much larger degree, using it in synergy with your combat skills?
To me, it's the most effective playstyle. Making full use of your techs and combat skills when your opponent has approached, and using the arrows to make them approach.

Pit doesn't need to approach! He's the best camper in the game because he's so good at being on the offensive as soon as you enter his camp. Why not make the best of both worlds?

Fights against Marth especially... why wouldn't you spam him first before eventually facing the range and power of his sword?
 

cj.Shark

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simple. arrows have a bit of startup and Lag time. They arent Miracle projectiles that you can just throw out every second. No the opponent will powershield the entire set. Pit doesnt need to apporoach but at the same time he has a few good ones such as gliding or sh n-air they are pretty safe and do a good ammount of damage. Spamming arrows Gets you hit. thats the truth. ask any sonic main they will prolly say "You know im glad pits spam arrows because its the perfect time for a spindash combo with their arrow Lag"

Point is we spam if we can but we dont because we cant.
 

sagemoon

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Heres the thing though. At high level play people can powershield arrows with ease. Sure its effective to spam still, but if you stand in one place, run to the other side and start shooting arrows. If your opponent hasnt found a way around that then he isnt good.

Against dedede its more effective to nair into utilt because they cant shield grab you, if you arrow they can close the gap in about 2 arrows or whatnot if they're good. When i spam arrows, i normally am on the ledge trying to get back up (drop down, jump, arrow, jump, arrow, catch the ledge) I can also use a fair at any time.

I never said spamming was the reason masashi wasnt at the top, but theres other parts of his game that are very punishable. First off, look at his main attack pattern, short hop fair fast fall. Its a very melee type habit. If theres one powershield that comes up, or sometimes even a normal shield with correct spacing, he can get uptilted straight out of the shield. He didnt use f-smash at all really, but i guess thats a preference of style.

Masashis aim with his arrows are a little off as well. So basically he just blindly spams them. At least be smart w/ them you know?
 

Undrdog

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/sigh this is a ridiculous thread. Masashi is an amazing player and his technical game makes him one of the very best at the game. His spacing is amazing and his mindgames are subtle but effective.

All of that being said, as a "Pit" player he is sub par in my opinion. He could play any competitive character in the game with the same effectiveness in which he uses Pit. His tactics and play style are focused on general gameplay mechanics. His expertise in the matter may be second to none. However he doesn't utilize Pit the way most Pit mains do and if he doesn't at some point adopt a more Pit specific fighting style he'll be left behind.


Masashi is a very good player and I've watched every video I could find of him. He's fast but leaves himself open. When he plays characters that are faster then Pit he struggles. Powershielding seems to be accidental in his game.

In short, Masashi is not the best Pit player. He is however a fast, technical fighter with a unique fighting style for Pit. If he were to adopt more sophisticated mindgames then he would indeed be a force to be reckoned with. Until that happens I'll just keep an eye on his matches and learn from his style.
 

Alopex

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I definitely understand what you're saying.

Still, you'll notice that I wasn't talking about the gun-and-run playstyle (which, indeed, was Masashi's main playstyle). I see that style as inherently flawed. And you've both pointed out the flaws.

I meant using it strictly as pressure to make the opponent come to you. Cause as I mentioned, approaching is dangerous. Make your opponent do it instead. Then fight.

No fleeing.
Fleeing to restart the spam is pointless. Very pointless.

You've all got great fighting abilities, so why not bring the fighting to you? Even if you have an approach strategy, it still won't be as safe as pressuring them to come to you.


Even with powershielding, the odds are against them successfully blocking every single one. And even just 2 arrows is already 10%.

I mean, yes, if you're far apart in FD, then it's easy to shield block everything. But it's much tougher in Smashville. Especially with arrow charging mindgames.

Even if they block most of the arrows, it'll still annoy your opponent, which makes them more prone to messing up.


Everyone likes to punish arrow spamming by punishing the post-arrow lag. But that's exactly it. The lag is the bait that makes them approach you. Once that happens, you go to town, as I've seen you all do and have experienced myself.


Arrow spamming is pressure. Nothing more.

The thing is that I don't see you guys using it to pressure at all.

So I'm still trying to figure out why you choose to go after them instead of having them come to you. There really isn't so much post-arrow lag that it effects your ability to counter their approaches.

So that Kind Dedede closed the gap in 2 arrows? That's cool. Now he's next to you, meaning he's not spamming his projectiles, meaning he's likely going to try and grab you, or up tilt you. Meanwhile, you have a lot more options to use against him.


Also, I do hope I'm not coming off as presumptuous or arrogant. I am actually just looking for your opinions and reasoning.
 

Undrdog

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I think your concept of Powershielding is a little off. Everything you said isn't consistent is actually the gateway of becoming a great player. Same goes for approaching your opponent. Pit is amazing at the approach. Pits who don't become the aggressor usually aren't very good.
 

sagemoon

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If you let your opponent constantly approach you. No matter if hes being pressured by arrows, he will be in control. Putting yourself on the defensive constantly will allow your opponents to walk all over you. Personally I feel more comfortable approaching then being approached. As brawl continues people are learning the game better and are finding more efficient ways to approach.
 

rathy Aro

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rathy azen plays lucario, and in all honesty masashi isnt good. With just skill, i think azen can beat masashi in a pit ditto, but apparently dittos don't mean anything. But hey i only seen the first video
Azen plays many characters. He's played Pit at tourney level really well too which is why I brought it up.
 

Undrdog

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Yep. The ironic part is though is that I've been preaching the best approach in the game since BEFORE the game was released in the US. Yet so few people do it.

Two words... Reflexive Powershielding. It is the greatest approach in the game, especially for Pit. You master this and your fights will be heavily one sided.
 

Alopex

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Reflexive Powershielding... going towards them and Powershielding their attack followed by punishing their lag? either through dash-shielding or through lagless aerial attack landings?

Is this what you refer to? Or is it something different altogether?
 

Admiral Pit

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Arrow spam may be pressure, but then if I did it, I'd be called a noob and a spammer. That's what I refer to some Pits that do that to my Bowser, though Im usually able to bypass it.
In Pit dittos, dont expect it to be as effective.
 

Undrdog

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Reflexive Powershielding... going towards them and Powershielding their attack followed by punishing their lag? either through dash-shielding or through lagless aerial attack landings?

Is this what you refer to? Or is it something different altogether?
Yes but it's basically Powershielding attacks purposefully. You see the attack start. You identify the attack. Then you time the Powershield accordingly.
 

Alopex

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No, Pit dittos are a different story. When both people play the best defensive character, they have no choice but to go offensive.

In fact, Pit dittos are my most common match. Why? Because my biggest playing partner uses Pit almost exclusively, and plays Pit exclusively defensive, as I have described.

I can only beat him with my own Pit because when we're both forced to go offensive, I am better. But I cannot get past his defensive playstyle with any other character, and I have seen others fall to the same fate. So I continue to use Pit.

It may be spammy, it may be cheap. But that doesn't make it noobish if you are capable of pulling off all the other feats of Pit in synergy with the spam. It's like chaingrabbing. Cheap, spammy, annoying, but no one seems to call it noobish. Because it's effective.

I guess the cure here is figuring out the flaws of this playstyle when using a non-Pit character. This allows me to focus exclusively on Pit's defensive flaws. So what would you guys do against a defensive Pit if you WEREN'T a Pit yourselves (aside from the infamous turtle Bair)?

I just don't see anyone other than another Pit beating a defensive Pit. Which is why I'm still perplexed about why Pit isn't always considered top tier.


EDIT: But you can't Powershield a Pit's Fsmash, UndrDog. You'll powershield the first hit and get hit by the second. Happens all the time. So this effectively makes Reflexive Powershielding less useful for anyone facing a Pit. Giving Pit another defensive advantage. No?

EDIT 2: It's similarly pointless to Powershield against an Angel Ring. So if Pit is so good at stopping the best approach in the game, then isn't that a good reason to stay on the defense and then pummel them once they close in?
 

Undrdog

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Yep. Pit has a huge advantage when it comes to being Powershielded against. However being able to double and even triple Powershielding those sort of attacks is completely possible and should be practiced. ^_^
 
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